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One Bad Egg, a small gaming company that had two 2009 ENnies nominations (for Death Mother and Hard Boiled Armies) and supported 4e, has announced they are shutting down.
They mention poor sales as being the main factor. Interestingly, they also mention 4e's DDI tools as another reason.
WOTC is doing a great job providing support for their game, and the online tools that come with a DDI subscription have had the curious side-effect of defining a product space that we can’t even touch, as third party publishers. Creating classes — already hard work — pretty much becomes a nonstarter when there’s no way to provide a “class definition” for use with the DDI character builder, and creating monsters (even ones as oogy fun as the Death Mother) starts to be questionable when a solid Monster Builder tool debuts from the primary publisher.
Too bad; they seemed like they had some good ideas.
-Skeld
One Bad Egg, a small gaming company that had two 2009 ENnies nominations (for Death Mother and Hard Boiled Armies) and supported 4e, has announced they are shutting down.
They mention poor sales as being the main factor. Interestingly, they also mention 4e's DDI tools as another reason.
WOTC is doing a great job providing support for their game, and the online tools that come with a DDI subscription have had the curious side-effect of defining a product space that we can’t even touch, as third party publishers. Creating classes — already hard work — pretty much becomes a nonstarter when there’s no way to provide a “class definition” for use with the DDI character builder, and creating monsters (even ones as oogy fun as the Death Mother) starts to be questionable when a solid Monster Builder tool debuts from the primary publisher.Too bad; they seemed like they had some good ideas.
-Skeld
I keep repeating this over and over - stop doing the same thing WotC is flooding the market with and you'll have a shot at some success. I mean I hate to kick a company when its down. Loosing a business hurts but so many companies seem to want to try and step on WotCs toes and then they wonder why they get creamed. If your company makes a fantastically beautiful campaign setting with an interesting twist then you need character classes to support your campaign setting and they should go in the players book - otherwise don't make classes.
There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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They did have some interesting ideas, but the most interesting part is why they're leaving the field: WotC did it better. This is an interesting direction, and indicates almost the anti-OGL movement: why allow a third party to do it when we can do it in-house? I guess the danger is that the in-house stuff gets too unwieldly and leads to profits lost if the quality suffers. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.
Still, too bad for One Bad Egg. Of all the 3rd party 4e stuff I saw, their ideas seemed the most intriguing to me.
Now, Hicks, get working on my Dresden Files RPG.
Now, Hicks, get working on my Dresden Files RPG.
Isn't Evil Hat doing that?
Yep, but Fred Hicks & Rob Donoghue are two of the Evil Hatters. And now they can devote all their time to finishing it! Mwah ha ha!Now, Hicks, get working on my Dresden Files RPG.Isn't Evil Hat doing that?
Dresden Files RPG!?!?!?!
<Sets up chair and cooler to be first in line when it comes out!>
:)
There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.
Which areas are those that aren't things already inside DDI Character or the Monster Builder? From my perspsective, once you start removing anything covered by those, you are more likely to find that your product is systemless rather than for 4th edition (which is fine, but then you wouldn't be a 4E publisher anymore).
I've always been a big fan of 3PP, especially when it came to adventures or settings. For 4e, I just haven't found many 3PP that equal some of the greatness of the 3PPs when 3e came out. There are no great adventures like Freeport or Witchfire and no great new settings. At least, I haven't found any. They might be out there, but there is no explosion of 3PP like there was for 3e.
There may be multiple reasons for this: in the beginnings of 3e, there was a saturation of 3PP products (some great, some terrible) and gamers became more discerning (and less spendthrift) overtime; the GSL is too scary for many established publishers; and the GSL came too late for many publishers to create that early excitement and establish new brands. Add in a little recession, stir, and things are not looking good for 4e 3PPs in general.
I don't think it's just the DDI hurting 3PP. I think the overall 4e output from WotC makes many 3rd party products unnecessary. I don't really need more powers, classes, or magic items - WotC is filling that niche quite extensively. However, I am on the look out for great adventures. So far, I haven't been that impressed with WotC's published adventures; I've been converting Paizo's adventures. If a great adventure publishing company came out, I would go for that.
Even then, I would approach any new company cautiously. In some ways, I would rather take an established 3e product and convert (I've been setting my eye on Ptolus lately), than take the risk with a new 4e company.
However, I would like to see a good 3PP for 4e spring up; I think it's important for the longevity of roleplaying. But at this point, building a good brand would require an extensive amount of money and risk. It's just not very feasible. Unfortunately, it's just not a good environment in general for 4e 3PPs.
Hell, we see the same thing with WOTC. I consider the PHB 2 classes superior to the PHB 1 classes and the same thing goes for the Monster Manual.
Despite recent polls on ENWorld that directly contradict this? The PHB 1's Ranger is considered the best striker. The PHB 1's Inspiring Warlord is the best Leader, the PHB 1's Guardian Fighter the best defender. Really the PHB 2 classes barely registered. Granted it was an internet poll but with over 200 votes on each all of those three (I can't remember the controller winner but it was most likely something from PHB 2 as there was only 1 controller in the PHB 1) were clear winners - easily doubling or quadrupling their nearest rivals.
There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.Which areas are those that aren't things already inside DDI Character or the Monster Builder? From my perspsective, once you start removing anything covered by those, you are more likely to find that your product is systemless rather than for 4th edition (which is fine, but then you wouldn't be a 4E publisher anymore).
Adventures. Adventures, adventures, adventures.
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Adventures. Adventures, adventures, adventures.There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.Which areas are those that aren't things already inside DDI Character or the Monster Builder? From my perspsective, once you start removing anything covered by those, you are more likely to find that your product is systemless rather than for 4th edition (which is fine, but then you wouldn't be a 4E publisher anymore).
+1. Or Asian settings.
However, I would like to see a good 3PP for 4e spring up; I think it's important for the longevity of roleplaying. But at this point, building a good brand would require an extensive amount of money and risk. It's just not very feasible. Unfortunately, it's just not a good environment in general for 4e 3PPs.At the present time, it looks like Goodman Games is the king of relatively small 4E 3PP market. They have released 25+ titles already for 4E, of which 15 are modules. Whether by happenstance or shrewd planning, they were smart enough to figure out that producing adventure modules to be sold in FLGS a few months after 4E D&D was released, was the most viable way to establish their product with a first mover advantage.
Yes, they are probably the most prominent 4e producer after WotC, which I think is more of a statement of how small the market is now. They have produced many modules, but none that I know of that have created a buzz, not like the first Freeport module or Witchfire. These modules were popular enough to produce more modules and campaign settings and helped put their publishing companies on the map. I just don't see that happening again any time soon for 4e 3PPs.
There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.Which areas are those that aren't things already inside DDI Character or the Monster Builder? From my perspsective, once you start removing anything covered by those, you are more likely to find that your product is systemless rather than for 4th edition (which is fine, but then you wouldn't be a 4E publisher anymore).
Adventures - especially large plot heavy ones. Can you do a fantasy murder mystery for 4E? Do it well and that might garner a good deal of attention.
WotC is heavily wedded to the Delve format which is excellent for certain styles of adventure design but much weaker with other styles. Since you can pretty much bank on WotC not abandoning the Delve format a company could potentially clean up by making excellent adventures designed to focus on the sort of things Delve does badly.
For example the Delve format does not work particularly well if the adventure is about the players casing a location in order to break into it steal something and get away. That adventure is really all about floor plans, guard schedules and tricking the bad monstrous Dog things with kibble treats. 4E as a rules system is actually pretty good for this sort of adventure because character parties have little access to teleports and can't usually walk through walls - at least not as a group and can't easily circumnavigate traps and barriers even at high levels so its comparatively easy to make an adventure thats going to challenge the party but its not easy to make this adventure and adhere to the Delve format.
The Delve format depends on the encounters remaining static - everything is in stasis until the players show up. Any adventure that creates a focus on dynamic movement of the encounters is going to be something that WotC will shy away from but a 3PP could embrace with a good chance of success.
Campaign settings. WotC has pretty much stated that they are going to touch on each of their propriety campaign settings and then move on to another setting. There is now clearly a gapping hole in the market for a really well done large in depth campaign setting. Something which a company plans to keep putting out supplement books for.
Traps and Skill Challenges are a bit light on the ground. These areas might eventually be filled out by WotC but in the meantime there is a chance for a 3PP to make some money.
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In hindsight, one obvious "pretender to the throne" contender could have been Paizo if they had went the 4E route for their adventure paths, instead of the Pathfinder RPG.
The same could also have been said about Green Ronin and its Freeport. Or Kenzer Games and world of Kalamar. And we know Necromancer Games tried (is trying?) to jump on the 4E bandwagon.
But Paizo, Green Ronin, and Kenzer went in new directions while NG seems to be in hiatus. Goodman's the 4E 3PP "it" boy at this time. Personally, I like the company's Dungeon Denizens. And the Search for Adventure book wasn't that shabby, either.
There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.Which areas are those that aren't things already inside DDI Character or the Monster Builder? From my perspsective, once you start removing anything covered by those, you are more likely to find that your product is systemless rather than for 4th edition (which is fine, but then you wouldn't be a 4E publisher anymore).Adventures - especially large plot heavy ones. Can you do a fantasy murder mystery for 4E? Do it well and that might garner a good deal of attention.
WotC is heavily wedded to the Delve format which is excellent for certain styles of adventure design but much weaker with other styles. Since you can pretty much bank on WotC not abandoning the Delve format a company could potentially clean up by making excellent adventures designed to focus on the sort of things Delve does badly....
Campaign Settings are not something that I really attach as a profitable niche for publishers for 4th edition. The amount of time and/or effort that I associate with publishing a campaign setting for a "normal" 3rd party publisher. I would suggest what Bad Egg was producing was a campaign setting, just one article at a time. Even then, you would be coming up against your material versus the DDI Builder. Unless your campaign setting doesn't have races, paragon paths, or classes, in which case, you are more of a system-less setting. Bad Egg, in my mind, tried making a 4th edition setting within several of their products, then you kicked them when they were down for producing material for the setting.
While I see avenues for 3rd party products, they seem to fall in to a limited area of adventures and encounters without pushing into DDI Builder territory.
To me, your first post was way too dismissive of Bad Egg for not doing one of the many things that would have been profitable, when it isn't that easy.
Campaign Settings are not something that I really attach as a profitable niche for publishers for 4th edition. The amount of time and/or effort that I associate with publishing a campaign setting for a "normal" 3rd party publisher. I would suggest what Bad Egg was producing was a campaign setting, just one article at a time. Even then, you would be coming up against your material versus the DDI Builder. Unless your campaign setting doesn't have races, paragon paths, or classes, in which case, you are more of a system-less setting. Bad Egg, in my mind, tried making a 4th edition setting within several of their products, then you kicked them when they were down for producing material for the setting.While I see avenues for 3rd party products, they seem to fall in to a limited area of adventures and encounters without pushing into DDI Builder territory.
To me, your first post was way too dismissive of Bad Egg for not doing one of the many things that would have been profitable, when it...
OK I agree my initial post was pretty harsh. I apologize for that.
Keep in mind, I was responding to the OP which put forward a point of view that said that a significant part of the problem was that DDI made creating classes and monsters a bad strategy.
I'm not even saying I have a real clue regarding what various 3PPs are up against but it still seems to me that I'm essentially seeing far to many products that position themselves straight into territory which WotC has more then locked up. New, cool, character classes strike me as something of a dead end unless its as support for an actual setting, players can only play so many characters and we are already drowning in choice. I've been running my cleric for months now and will, unless he dies, probably run him for at least another year. I might manage to play 15 characters during the entire life of this edition - 20 tops. At this point in time we could never see another character class and I'll still never manage to play all the options I'm interested in and WotC won't stop adding to the options.
While I see avenues for 3rd party products, they seem to fall in to a limited area of adventures and encounters without pushing into DDI Builder territory.We know that now, after a year or so of 4E being on the market.
Going back one year ago, how many 3PP's would have anticipated the "DDI hegemony" having such a huge stranglehold on the 4E market?
No real idea but it does seem like WotC, for all the failures and false starts in this regards had a fundamentally good idea at the core because they seem to be very successful.
That said KQ looks to be doing pretty well - DDI is actually probably a boon for Wolfgang. Opened up a nice little niche for him.
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At this point in time, I doubt Paizo, Kenzer, Green Ronin, etc ... will suddenly change plans and "go 4E" if 4E is suddenly made OGL today.
Exactly. Paizo, at least, has mentioned more than once that the 4E ruleset doesn't quite work with their story direction. And both Green Ronin and Kenzer are busy with their own successful lines now.
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I keep repeating this over and over - stop doing the same thing WotC is flooding the market with and you'll have a shot at some success. I mean I hate to kick a company when its down. Loosing a business hurts but so many companies seem to want to try and step on WotCs toes and then they wonder why they get creamed. If your company makes a fantastically beautiful campaign setting with an interesting twist then you need character classes to support your campaign setting and they should go in the players book - otherwise don't make classes.There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.
It sort of seems as though WotC is doing pretty much everything at the moment. They've put out more adventures and sourcebooks for 4e than they did for 3.5 in as much time, they took over Dungeon and Dragon, and they've cornered the miniatures and battlemap market. I'm at a loss as to what would be leftover if I wanted to supplement their products.
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It sort of seems as though WotC is doing pretty much everything at the moment. They've put out more adventures and sourcebooks for 4e than they did for 3.5 in as much time, they took over Dungeon and Dragon, and they've cornered the miniatures and battlemap market. I'm at a loss as to what would be leftover if I wanted to supplement their products.
I keep repeating this over and over - stop doing the same thing WotC is flooding the market with and you'll have a shot at some success. I mean I hate to kick a company when its down. Loosing a business hurts but so many companies seem to want to try and step on WotCs toes and then they wonder why they get creamed. If your company makes a fantastically beautiful campaign setting with an interesting twist then you need character classes to support your campaign setting and they should go in the players book - otherwise don't make classes.There are all sorts of area's were Wizards has not really done much and these could be niches for a 4E publisher.
I'm still waiting for D&D 4E Oriental Adventures ^_^
Ah but you're talking "effectiveness" and not design. Both the PHB 2 and the MM2 show how WOTC have learned how to build "better" classes (no V-shaped ones, no ones there as boring as say the ranger -"twinstrike all the time" and the actual range of effect - big difference in effectiveness between an infrnalock and an archer ranger - not so much between sorceror and barbarian) - In short the PHB 2 classes seem cooler.
Ah - I see what you're saying. I thought by 'superior' you were talking about power creep - the classes getting more powerful than the 'baseline' classes in PHB 1. I do agree that WotC really went out to make some fun and interesting classes to play in PHB 2 most notably in the realm of controllers and strikers. Defenders and Leaders I still feel PHB 1 holds the edge in outright fun classes to play.
Similarly, the MM2 monsters especially the solos and minions show what WOTC has learned and they refined it. It's subtle things like ensuring that solos transform at the bloodied level to give the fight another twist to keep it interesting and minions who at later levels still provide more of a threat.
I know they did tweak the mechanics of solos (some have 4 times a standard monsters hps rather than 5 times) and the defenses seem much more 'free form' and not bound to the tble in the DMG 1. I wouldn't say that MM1 monsters are necessarily better or more interesting but they do suffer from the first out of gate problem - the mechanics are so new and different that problems are going to appear. This was true even during the 3E days, imo.
As for WOTC's release schedule, it actually isn't more than 3.0 or 3.5 early years. What I think makes it more noticeable is that there all HARDCOVERS whereas most of th stuff WOTC released in the early 3.0 years were softcover.
Oh I would love to see any book less than 190 pages as a softcover. These 160 page hardcovers bug the crap out of me. That was something 3.0 did right, imo, softcover class books in B&W. They were all cheap ($22 here in Canada) and mine are still in great condition.
I'm wondering if anyone can name any 3PP campaign settings unique to 4e. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one.
WotC's output on adventures is considerable, but I'm still looking for something different. Exciting epics, complex stories, fascinating NPCs, unique adventures for grown-ups. Hmmm...sounds a bit like Paizo. Even beyond that, though, I'd like to see other themed adventures, such as pirate adventures, urban intrigue adventures, Asian adventures, "LOST" style mystery adventures, and a host of others. Many of the WotC adventures feel the same and don't really excite me as a DM. They all have a simple hook that requires going into the underground to fight things. The Delve format for each encounter takes up most of the room, not allowing for further complexity or intrigue.
This seems to be the case with WotC's main published adventures. Some of the Dungeon adventures offer a little more variety, but I don't like that they are not in print. I don't want to use a pdf and printing them gets expensive.
I don't believe I'm alone. I think there could be a market for well-made and inspiring adventures that leave the Delve format behind, or at least adjust it.
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Maybe. Please, though, no Lot5R!I'm still waiting for D&D 4E Oriental Adventures ^_^Maybe that will be the setting for 2011?
Let me echo this...
PLEASE let me echo this.
I hate hate hate hate HATE HATE HATE what WotC did to the L5R campaign setting. Looking over it I saw so much that made me cringe, and even more that made me want to kick a puppy in sheer irritation.
This is bordering on a Kefka style rant here.
Luckily, AEG bought back the rights to their intellectual property and are doing well with it. WotC can't do Rokugan again. Nor would I ever WANT them too...
When I found out someone was using it as an excuse to fit as many animes into a DnD session as he could, I wanted to slaughter the world.
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Well, remember, there was a LOT of schlock in the early days.
What would you guys consider good products in the initial 2 years of 3.0 (not after 3.5 where basically everyone had a handle on the rules and understood them). Everyone remembers the good stuff of 3.x but most of the good stuff came AFTER 3.5 was released.
Hell, we see the same thing with WOTC. I consider the PHB 2 classes superior to the PHB 1 classes and the same thing goes for the Monster Manual.
IMHO there is a huge pile of high quality 3.0 edition stuff. Just out of my head I list the Stuff I own from 3.0 edition.
As far as I know, these are all from 2000 - 2002. As do this from memory, correct me if I am wrong.Atlas Games:
Beyond the Veil
Fantasy Bestiary
Badaxe Games:
Heroes of High favor: Dwarves
Bastion Press:
Arms and Armor
Fantasy Flight Games:
Traps & Treachery I & II
Midnight
Goodman Games:
Dungeon Crawl Classics (don't know the number when 3.0 ended and 3.5 started)
Green Ronin:
Book of the Righteous
Death in Freeport
Hell in Freeport
Terror in Freeport
Madness in Freeport
Freeport: City of Adventure
Legions of Hell
Armies of the Abyss
Hammer & Helm
Wrath & Rage
Plot & Poison
Malhavoc Press:
Book of Eldritch Might I & II
Book of Hallowed Might I
Requiem for a God
Demon God's Fane
Banewarrens
Skreyn's Register I & II
Necromancer Games:
Tome of Horrors
Rappan Athuk I-III
Lost City of Barrakus
The Grey Citadel
I'm wondering if anyone can name any 3PP campaign settings unique to 4e.The Kingdom of Dardarrick, the setting for Mongoose Publishing Wraith Recon 4e supp.
Looks interesting. Has anyone tried it?
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Wonder if Wraith Recon has been abandoned by Mongoose.
The one FLGS in town which stocks Wraith Recon, the store owner mention only one person so far has bought any of the books.
I had to special order mine. So far I have the Enemies Within
and Mission Pack 1: Skies of Fire as well as the main book. There were suppose to be a couple more but don't see them on the Mongoose site. Damn.
Thanks for all the kind words in this thread. OBE was a lot of fun while it lasted.
It was indeed, Justin. You guys produced wonderful stuff. Good luck with all of your forthcoming creative ventures. I look forward to Tokyo Rain and Dresden Files.
~Rone