A player told me that he would like to change his character for an orc PC. Given that PCs in Pathfinder are apparently more powerful than their counterparts in 3.5, and currently all I have to go on is the 3.5 Monster Manual, I'm concerned that an Orc would be underpowered.
So, I went through and came up with things to add to the orc to make the race equivalent to other PC races. Thinking about orcs and my setting, I think orcs could be as common in adventuring parties as anything else, even if they do hate elves and vice versa.
So, I am considering granting PC orcs the following racial abilities:
* Orc males have +4 Strength, +2 Con, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Orc females have +2 Strength, +2 Con, +2 Dex -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* Base land speed 30 feet
* Darkvision 60 feet
* Light sensitivity. Orcs are dazzled by bright sunlight or spells such as daylight.
* Intimidating: Orc males receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
* Hidden: Orc females receive a +2 racial bonus on Stealth checks in natural surroundings
* Orc Ferocity: Once per day, if brought below 0 hit points but not killed, an orc can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, the orc immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
* Pugnacious and belligerent: Orcs are skilled at unarmed combat. They get improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. They also get a +1 racial bonus to hit with an unarmed attack, to CMB with unarmed attacks, to CMD when unarmed, and to unarmed attack damage.
* Elvish. Orcs and elves will never admit this, but orcs are considered as a type of elves with regard to any effects related to race, including favored enemy, magic items, etc.
* Weapons familiarity: Orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with "orc" in its name as a martial weapon.
* Hatred. Orcs hate elves and get a +1 bonus to attack rolls against elves.
* Orcs is Stubborn. Orcs get a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against compulsion effects, whether or magic or psionic.
* Orcs is Fearless. Orcs get a +2 racial bonus against fear effects. Plus, each round in which an orc is not in combat, she can make a new saving throw against the fear effect, whether or not she would normally get one.
* Orcs is Stupid. When affected by a magical or psionic language-dependant compulsions, an orc has a 1% chance per point of Charisma of misinterpreting the command in a manner that is either advantageous to the orc, or detrimental to the spellcaster's interests. For example, if commanded to drop a weapon, she might instead hurl it five or ten feet, striking someone and doing damage.
* Automatic languages: Orc. PCs also know Common. Bonus languages: elven, dwarven, goblin, giant, undercommon.
Any thoughts?
I'd keep both genders the same. Allow an improvement in one of the mental stats (in the 3.5 MM). I'd probably go with taking out the -2 wisdom. Allow a feat to lose the light sensitivity if it's an issue, or just ignore it altogether. +4 strength is pretty good, and fits the archetype.
Add the half-orc features from the PFRPG, and you're done. The extras you have here are cool, but might be a +1 LA. Well, the elf hatred fits. You might add dwarf hatred, too. They don't get along, either. Other than that, it's good to go.
My 2 cp.
You're persuading me, Kurt.
+4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, for a net of +2. Orc wizards and sorcerers/bards should be rare and not that great. This race screams warrior, not thinker or charmer. Half-orcs are variable, orcs aren't. That explains why, in Golarion, half-orcs aren't as strong, but often rise to positions of leadership among orc tribes. They CAN be good leaders. Regular orcs are tough as nails, but not too bright or pleasant.
With average wisdom, they can be good clerics or druids, and aren't so easily led, but mentally, they're a little behind the curve, overall.
I'd ditch light sensitivity and add elf and dwarf hatred, along with the half-orc perks. I wonder what we'll get in the bestiary?
+4 strength, +2 con? No, sorry, way overpowered.
+2 to two physical stats is much better than +2 to a physical and +2 to a mental stat. And +4 to a single stat is much, much better than +2 to any two different stats, mental or physical.
The old orcs (+4 strength, -2 to all mental stats, darkvision, light blindness) were overpowered even in 3.5. It's not that their net benefits are that great, it's just that they're so good at one thing (physical combat) that no amount of non-combat penalties can make up for it. Orcs will always be better fighters than half-orcs (to say nothing of dwarves humans, etc) and making them sucky clerics/wizard/etc. doesn't change that.
I wouldn't use the old orc stats for PCs even in Pathfinder. If you're going to, though, they certainly don't need a physical boost of any sort. I would be more apt to remove the mental penalties or grant new, non-combat benefits (which is in the spirit of Pathfinder's changes to other races; smart elves, wise dwarves, etc).
You're persuading me, Kurt.
+4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, for a net of +2. Orc wizards and sorcerers/bards should be rare and not that great. This race screams warrior, not thinker or charmer. Half-orcs are variable, orcs aren't. That explains why, in Golarion, half-orcs aren't as strong, but often rise to positions of leadership among orc tribes. They CAN be good leaders. Regular orcs are tough as nails, but not too bright or pleasant.
I'd ditch light sensitivity and add elf and dwarf hatred, along with the half-orc perks. I wonder what we'll get in the bestiary?
The stats I have already has the half-orc perks. Light Sensitivity is iconic for the race, so Pugnacious and Hatred try to make up for this. The bonuses vs compulsions do the rest, and also make up for only having penalties for a mental stat.
Perhaps I could either drop the Stubborn or Fearless ability. Since I was recatagorizing orcs as an elf subtype, the Stubborn is more limitted than the elven resistance to enchantments. Fearless is related to the orcs being specifically bred for battle. But if I were to keep one and not the other, I'd probably drop Fearless.
The "Orcs is Stupid" thing is I think a fun ability that usually won't apply, and when it does there is a 90% chance or so that it won't have any effect.
Another consideration is that orcs will face a lot of prejudice in society. Not only do they hate elves, but the feeling is mutual. Humans and elves will probably not attack orcs at sight, if the orc appears to be non-hostile, but activities that other PC races take for granted may require bluff and diplomacy checks, with a -2 Charisma handicap.
Orcs in my homebrew will probably be different than orcs in Golaron. For one thing, in my homebrew jungle, the orcs are filling the role of the amazons.
So my question is, if I drop Fearless and keep everything else (including the prejudice), would I have a +1 LA?
+4 strength, +2 con? No, sorry, way overpowered.
+2 to two physical stats is much better than +2 to a physical and +2 to a mental stat. And +4 to a single stat is much, much better than +2 to any two different stats, mental or physical.
The old orcs (+4 strength, -2 to all mental stats, darkvision, light blindness) were overpowered even in 3.5. It's not that their net benefits are that great, it's just that they're so good at one thing (physical combat) that no amount of non-combat penalties can make up for it. Orcs will always be better fighters than half-orcs (to say nothing of dwarves humans, etc) and making them sucky clerics/wizard/etc. doesn't change that.
I wouldn't use the old orc stats for PCs even in Pathfinder. If you're going to, though, they certainly don't need a physical boost of any sort.
Okay. +2 str, +2 con, -2 int. They still deserve -2 cha, to me. Tha shunts them towards warrior classes, but that's to be expected. The plusses in physical stats outweigh the mental minuses, agreed, for a typical orc, but they're way tough.
Or, +4 str, -2 int, -2 cha. I like the orc as a brutally powerful race, but not real smart. The flat point bonus won't mean squat to the average orc. They want that extra strength splat.
Playing a regular orc in most campaigns is hard in itself. Gods forbid you have to go to the elf camp in the sylvan woods for any reason, let alone a standard hamlet. The battle prowess is countered by the real-world problems of playing an orc in an orc-hating world.
The stats I have already has the half-orc perks. Light Sensitivity is iconic for the race, so Pugnacious and Hatred try to make up for this. The bonuses vs compulsions do the rest, and also make up for only having penalties for a mental stat.Perhaps I could either drop the Stubborn or Fearless ability. Since I was recatagorizing orcs as an elf subtype, the Stubborn is more limitted than the elven resistance to enchantments. Fearless is related to the orcs being specifically bred for battle. But if I were to keep one and not the other, I'd probably drop Fearless.
The "Orcs is Stupid" thing is I think a fun ability that usually won't apply, and when it does there is a 90% chance or so that it won't have any effect.
Another consideration is that orcs will face a lot of prejudice in society. Not only do they hate elves, but the feeling is mutual. Humans and elves will probably not attack orcs at sight, if the orc appears to be non-hostile, but activities that other PC races take for granted may require bluff and diplomacy checks, with a -2 Charisma handicap.
Orcs in my homebrew will probably be different than orcs in Golaron. For one thing, in my homebrew jungle, the orcs are filling the role of the amazons.
So my question is, if I drop Fearless and keep everything else (including the prejudice), would I have a +1 LA?
Probably not, IMHO. The orc will shine in combat encounters, but be a burden on the party if they deal with orc-haters most of the time. He'll be hated, and frustrated by it. Sounds like you have a handle on what you think orcs are in your game. If the player's cool with it, make it a LA0 class and let him suffer/take it out in combat.
I don't believe in "role playing penalties" and if provoked I'm quite capable of spewing pages explaining why. The short of it is that more combat or extra adventure hooks cannot be counted as a mechanical drawback: some players want to play the savage badass, and want elves and dwarves to hate them on sight.
+2 strength, +2 con might be balanced if you kept daylight sensitivity (which takes a feat to get rid of). I like con because it's arguably the weakest stat to boost but also the most generally useful; it's good for everyone rather than incredibly important for some characters and useless for others. However, at this point you've arguably already made a race which is the best in the game at melee combat.
And once you're past that, you might want to look at the other (non-ability) racial traits of other medium-sized races, and think about trimming your own list down to about that size. I'm loath to make specific suggestions because these are mostly neat, flavorful powers; there are just too many of them.
I also wouldn't let orcs reroll saves vs. fear every round unless you're giving halflings the same benefit.
Gender-based ability adjustments haven't been used, by core rules, for quite some time now.
I've seen this twice now, an Orc Monk and an Orc Barbarian, both had normal racial abilities in place and were running along side 3.5E PHB races...
Leave the stats as they are, the race is meant for fighting. The lack of mental stats is it's biggest and necessary downfall. Short of rolling some epic stats(or severely misplaced stats) the race is meant for a warrior class, period... as much as a kobold is NOT meant to be a warrior class. If the player wants a strong character that doesn't have severe mental penalties, play 1/2-orc or human.
Starting with a 22 STR, an orc barbarian will look like a god at lower levels, but once the party hits 8-10th level the damage potential will shift as rogues and wizards start passing by.
You will find the "daylight sensitivity" gets forgotten or is easily overcome by a pair of 25gp goggles aka sunglasses. Races of the Dragon, and where ever else they can be found... Or apparently a feat, but personally I'd rather just buy the sunglasses.
I recommend letting the player run as is, the -6 mental covers the +6 physical, even with +4str. Strength is ALWAYS RATED higher, some examples being Catfolk(for stats, also +1LA) and Enlarge Person spell(size bonus +2, not +8 like a typical increase to large). Even more so with how CMB works(minus feats).
+4 strength, +2 con? No, sorry, way overpowered.
+2 to two physical stats is much better than +2 to a physical and +2 to a mental stat. And +4 to a single stat is much, much better than +2 to any two different stats, mental or physical.
I agree. If you are making a martial character you aren't going to care about the mental stat penalty at all.
The +4 bonus is the big issue IMO. Look at the point buy and notice how the cost for stats increases each time the bonus goes up? There is a (balance) reason for that and by ignoring the +4 you are ignoring that.
I think there's a major disconnect here.
+4 Str is fine, even GREAT for a monster race. But when you start letting players use those races for PC's it is definatly overpowered. Which is why 3.5 had LA. I would recommend waiting a few weeks and seeing how the Bestiary treats Orcs, and there might even be rules for monsters as PCs in there as well. (I'd actually be suprised if there are not.)
That's what everyone keeps saying at least. But tell me Dennis, have you ever tried running a game where there isn't an increasing cost as the point totals go up? Truth is there isn't an imbalance at all.
I'm not going to derail things with what can be a huge debate. Suffice to say that most game designers disagree with you and not just at Paizo.
(Also, if an Orc's +4 is a problem, then what about the goblin's? I might be remembering wrong, AFB at the moment, but aren't goblins +4 dex?)
Goblins are the kings of rogues, they are so much better than halflings it isn't even funny. Mechanically speaking, why would anyone play a halfling rogue when they can play a goblin? They get better move, +4 bonus to stealth, darkvision, +4 DEX... Halflings get a mixed bag of racial powers which is nice but many aren't that great for rogues, their second racial bonus is to CHA which isn't even a rogue friendly stat. Worse, their move speed cripples their primary role as flanker and recon guy.
But looking at the goblin versus the orc the goblin has a big bonus to 1 physical stat and a penalty to another which affects his primary role (rogue). The Orc not only has a big bonus to his primary stat but has a bonus to the secondary stat of his primary role, and no penalties to the stats that affect his primary role at all (assuming it's a martial character). So I would be much more likely to let a goblin in than an orc.
The orc or the goblin are so much better than their alternatives at their niche that if they were in the PHB they would be the clear and obvious choices and almost universally chosen.
All that said. Maybe you are Ok with one race that's a lot better than others at being a fighter or a rogue... that's cool too. But a GM should go into the situation with eyes wide open and the whole idea that +6 == -6 is OK while ignoring the size of the bonuses and the spread of the bonuses is naive.
It's worth pointing out that the goblin technically has +2 Dex, -2 Cha as its racial modifiers; +2 Dex, -2 Str come from being Small. The halfling likewise has +2 Cha. Gnomes have -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha. So in terms of pure numerical attribute balance, the goblin basically trades -4 mental for +2 physical against the "standard" small races. This is arguably reasonable.
What puts goblins over the top are their particular combination of other racial traits. Basically, all the good parts of being Small are doubled; +4 ride is more useful than it looks (and I can't wait to see goblin dogs); and the 30' base move beats the living crap out of +1 to all saves. Darkvision is sweet sweet icing.
Meanwhile, halflings get free sling proficiency. Please note that the only core classes who don't already get that are wizard and, um, commoner. Beware the halfling commoner at 50 feet! But it's okay, he'll only get one rock off before you're out of range and he'll never catch up. An extra +1 when tossing javelins was just too much, eh wot?
There are some very good points being raised in this thread and it's giving me a lot to think about.
As for social drawbacks, I also agree that in general, I do not believe in role-playing weaknesses as a balancing factor. However, in the case of orcs in this setting, they seem to be in a sweet spot where the social drawbacks are severe enough to hurt, while not being so severe as to disqualify an orc PC from most adventures, as long as he can get PCs of other races to vouche for him.
The argument about the advantage of a +4 Str vs -6 to mental stats is interesting. How do these adjustments look?
A: +4 Str, +2 Con, +0 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha?
B: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +0 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha?
C: +4 Str, +2 Con, +0 Dex, +0 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha?
I'm pretty sure I will drop the Fearless ability, and reduce the Stubborn ability to a +1 bonus vs compulsions instead of a +2 bonus.
And also make Hatred a racial bonus rather than an unnamed bonus. that way Orcs won't get +2 to unarmed attacks vs elves.
As for orc vs non-orc fighter-types, orcs get the advantage of strength, unarmed attack, and resistance to compulsion effects. Humans get the advantage of a bonus feat. Elves get the advantage of ranged weapons and resistance to magic effects. Dwarves are better at wearing armor and more resilient.
That's what everyone keeps saying at least. But tell me Dennis, have you ever tried running a game where there isn't an increasing cost as the point totals go up? Truth is there isn't an imbalance at all.
I have.
Yes there is.
Not that I need to have actually made that mistake as a DM to know that min-maxing will usually result in better characters. That's sort of just how the game works.
The argument about the advantage of a +4 Str vs -6 to mental stats is interesting. How do these adjustments look?
A: +4 Str, +2 Con, +0 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha?
B: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +0 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha?
C: +4 Str, +2 Con, +0 Dex, +0 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha?
Hmmmm, I thought someone had suggested...
D: +2 Str, +2 Con, +0 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 ChaI was thinking that might be acceptable as well if the player was looking for something tough, but not an existing race template and if you were trying to avoid the +4 Str.
Reminds me of a 3.5E Wood Elf (MM pg. 104)... +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +0 Wis, +0 Cha.
PF Wood Elf(currently, sans Beastiary) +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +0 Int, +0 Wis, +0 Cha.
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Side debate: If you guys are going to drag Goblin vs. Halfling into this you SHOULD be mentioning that 30' Base Movement too!! Equivalent to 2 feats or 5,500gp & boot slot... kinda significant.
+2 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2cha. Half-orc perks and +1 vs. elves and dwarves. You get your +2 from the fact that this is a great race for fighting, the two physical plusses together are huge, and confirm that, and they can be competent cleric types, in their own culture. That, and decent wis. is suggested by their inborn wariness and survival into PF modernity. Not too bright, but they know which end of the axe to hold, and what to do with it. Elves make great wizards. Orcs make great barbarians. As close to polar opposites as two 0 LA races can be.
I'd still drop light sensitivity, since orcs have been on the ground for a while now, thanks to those bloody dwarves.
+2 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2cha. Half-orc perks and +1 vs. elves and dwarves. You get your +2 from the fact that this is a great race for fighting, the two physical plusses together are huge, and confirm that, and they can be competent cleric types, in their own culture. That, and decent wis. is suggested by their inborn wariness and survival into PF modernity. Not too bright, but they know which end of the axe to hold, and what to do with it. Elves make great wizards. Orcs make great barbarians. As close to polar opposites as two 0 LA races can be.
I'd still drop light sensitivity, since orcs have been on the ground for a while now, thanks to those bloody dwarves.
This seems like a pretty solid compromise that I would allow in my game. And I think losing the light sensitivity is a fair trade for the stat drop.
This seems like a pretty solid compromise that I would allow in my game. And I think losing the light sensitivity is a fair trade for the stat drop.
Great minds think alike! LOL!
They'd make lame arcane tricksters, but an orc barbarian/assassin would be a horrible thing to wake up to find beside your bed! RAGING DEATH ATTACK! NOOOOOO!
(...) but an orc barbarian/assassin would be a horrible thing to wake up to find beside your bed! RAGING DEATH ATTACK! NOOOOOO!
barbarian/assassin or not, I'd say waking-up next to an orc is bad enough on its own...
... especially when you don't quite recall what happened the night before past the fifth pitcher.
back to the OP, the last iteration would work for me too. Thumbs-up. While I think of this, aren't those the exact stats of Forgotten Realms Grey Orcs?
[EDIT] No, not quite. If interested, you can find them here.
back to the OP, the last iteration would work for me too. Thumbs-up. While I think of this, aren't those the exact stats of Forgotten Realms Grey Orcs?
[EDIT] No, not quite. If interested, you can find them here.
I don't know why the player wants to play an orc PC, so I think I'll offer him a choice. Option 1 will be similar to the one I first posted, with +4 str, a net ability adjustment of 0, including significant mental stat penalties, and reducing a couple of the special abilities that I had defined.
Option 2 will be based on the Grey Orcs and the last iteration.
I think both options will have hatred toward elves and dwarves.
I know there is a copyright issue with FR material, so I won't suggest using it, however I will mention that a certain FR book of races allowed you to play an Mountain Orc as a PC, which is essentially an Orc. A Mountain Orc received +4 STR, -2 INT, -2 WIS, -2 CHA, but received NO level adjustment but still had light sensitivity.
Using Orcs as PC: From a role-playing aspect, your at a huge disadvantage if your DM is worth his salt; most cities you enter that are even remotely civilized will kick you out our attempt to kill you because Orc's have a reputation 'that' bad. This means unless you are a real bad-ass, you cannot buy gear that is worthwhile because you cannot enter sprawling cities that carry major goods. Now if your an eleven-teen gamer, the concept of a killing machine that is liked by nobody might seem appealing, but to games such as myself all 30+, we can role-play so the idea of using an orc as a PC is unappealing to us.
Pathfinder Orcs: Original 3.5 races had (+2, -2 = 0) whereas the 3.5 Mountain Orc had (+4, -2, -2, -2 = -2). Alright, cool, so the Orc gets a -2 penalty. Now with pathfinder, races have (+2, +2, -2 = +2), so then (+4, -2, -2, -2) is -2 too much. To fix this, simply make CON +2 in addition for (+4, 0, +2, -2, -2, -2 = 0). Now the races are the same as before and on a level playing field. I hear lots of arguments that the extra +2 strength will outbalance the game because everyone will play an Orc but I saw hogwash if you use role-playing. And on top of this, that extra +2 STR will not make any difference at higher levels, not when the Orc receives so many mental penalties.
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FWIW, the Orc in Classic Monsters Revisited looks like it would have a ST bonus and penalties on CH, IN and WI (based on the "average" stats listed), but get darkvision, the Alertness feat, and perhaps a bonus to perception checks (though with the penalty to the controlling stat, it would be a balancing factor to the probable stat penalty). Of course, this is still based off the 3.5/beta rule set, so take it as you will. The bestiary will hopefully spell this out for folks when it is released.
As far as an unbalanced monster race for a PC, check out the bugbear ... played a d20 Future game that was a Shadowrun inspired affair. I got to play a bugbear, which ended up with a net +4, IIRC.
Halflings get a mixed bag of racial powers which is nice but many aren't that great for rogues, their second racial bonus is to CHA which isn't even a rogue friendly stat. Worse, their move speed cripples their primary role as flanker and recon guy.
Uhm,
CHA is not 'Rogue Friendly'? I can only assume you only play combat monster rogues who never enter town, never interact with NPC's, and who don't uses nearly a third of their class skills then.Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device?
Bluff is always useful both in RP and Combat.
Diplomacy is the cornerstone of a Rogue's interaction abilities, gathering information, negotiating contracts and sales.
Disguise is another cornerstone of the sneaky rogue, 'I'm not the fighter you are looking for'.
Intimidate is a good way to keep out of trouble in town or keep little goblins from bothering you.
Perform is a good way to get information in town, or just earn a few coppers when you are down on your luck.
Use Magic Device is of course one of the biggest skills for your average gadget monkey rogue.
Sorry, CHA is a VERY important stat for a rogue.
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Halflings get a mixed bag of racial powers which is nice but many aren't that great for rogues, their second racial bonus is to CHA which isn't even a rogue friendly stat. Worse, their move speed cripples their primary role as flanker and recon guy.
Uhm,
CHA is not 'Rogue Friendly'? I can only assume you only play combat monster rogues who never enter town, never interact with NPC's, and who don't uses nearly a third of their class skills then.Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device?
Bluff is always useful both in RP and Combat.
Diplomacy is the cornerstone of a Rogue's interaction abilities, gathering information, negotiating contracts and sales.
Disguise is another cornerstone of the sneaky rogue, 'I'm not the fighter you are looking for'.
Intimidate is a good way to keep out of trouble in town or keep little goblins from bothering you.
Perform is a good way to get information in town, or just earn a few coppers when you are down on your luck.
Use Magic Device is of course one of the biggest skills for your average gadget monkey rogue.
Sorry, CHA is a VERY important stat for a rogue.
would you say all those skills have use in civilization? but very little in the dungeon?
feinting is not worth it. what good does wasting a standard action to get 1 sneak attack in the next round? it's only your first attack.
why demoralize when the enemy will live to pester you longer? delaying your treasure earnings.
why use invest in disguise, a simple magic trinket gives a +10 bonus by mimicing a spell
diplomacy, most enemies don't accept parlay nor honor it. haggling? most dm's just use the listed market price. if you could haggle without a maximum benefit, it eventually gets unbalancing, +10 uber weapon for free. now a free hotel room is fine, but a free infinity plus one sword? i'd never give that. a hotel room is about a gold piece or less. the infinity plus one sword is 200k and provides huge combat bonuses.
perform, try acrobatics or sleight of hand, with the latter you can steal after your performance and thus double dip.
use magic device, your amount of feats has really increased, just invest a few more levels before you try it. or accept the penalty, if you really want to fix it, spend a feat on skill focus. +6-2=+4.
a rogue can afford to dump cha, if they are mostly dungeon crawling. which just about any new dm will do.
Uhm,
CHA is not 'Rogue Friendly'? I can only assume you only play combat monster rogues who never enter town, never interact with NPC's, and who don't uses nearly a third of their class skills then.
What's with the thread necro on a totally tangent topic?
Sorry, CHA is a VERY important stat for a rogue.
Ironicly enough, my main character right now is a halfling rogue with a 19 CHA who has max ranks in diplomacy, use magic device, and bluff. Unfortunately, our GM tends to be very RP light and so a lot of those skills go completely unused. INT and DEX are the 'rogue friendly' stats, used by almost every rogue. CHA is sometimes useful, sometimes not-so-much, maybe on par with Constitution.
The thing with rogues is you can go a lot of different routes. Stealth, diplomancer, skills dude, glass canon, etc... some of those things need CHA, ALL of them need skills (INT) and most need (DEX) for combat and stealth skills. If I were going the diplomacy/ magic route I would probably just go bard which is much more viable than before.
A good solution to the light sensitivity if you want to keep if for the race is to keep it in but allow an item (there were a couple in 3.5) that nixes it. The black eye makeup (ala what football players use, or ancient Egyptians) is probably my favorite for that.
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+2 to two physical stats is much better than +2 to a physical and +2 to a mental stat.
Amusingly, the old WotC argument that Strength was 'worth more' never seemed to apply to Gnomes, Halflings, Goblins and Kobolds, all of whom had a *penalty* to Strength, and no extra +2 to something else to 'make up for it.' I guess Strength is only 'worth more' in the case of the 1/2 Orc...
On the other hand, I'd only give the Orc a +2 to Strength and Con, and a -2 to Int and Cha. Combined with darkvision, ferocity and a bonus to Intimidate, I think they're okay as written. (Although I'd throw in a Bite attack. They draw them with those monstrous tusks, while critters depicted with barely any dentature at all, like Hound Archons, Driders and Ghouls, have effective bite attacks...)
That's something I'd add to Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, maybe Ogres and definitely Gnolls. A bite attack. Hobgoblins? Perhaps not. They can buy it with a feat, if need be, as they are usually drawn with flatter faces (at least in non-Pathfinder depictions).
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So, I am considering granting PC orcs the following racial abilities:
I would keep the following;
* Orcs have +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
* Base land speed 30 feet.
* Darkvision 60 feet.
* Light sensitivity. Orcs are dazzled by bright sunlight or spells such as daylight.
* Intimidating: Orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks and can use their Strength score in place of their Charisma score for the purpose of Intimidate checks.
* Orc Ferocity: Once per day, if brought below 0 hit points but not killed, an orc can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, the orc immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
* Good Enough to Eat: Orcs have a natural Bite attack that does 1d4 Piercing damage. If used as a primary attack, Orcs use their 1.5 x their Strength bonus for damage. This counts as an attack with a secondary weapon if used in combination with a weapon attack, and they only use 1/2 their Strength modifier in this case.
* Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are proficient with greataxes and javelins and treat any weapon with "orc" in its name as a martial weapon.
* Hatred. Orcs hate elves and dwarves and get a +1 bonus to attack rolls against these races (and subraces thereof, including half-elves).
* Automatic languages: Orc. PCs also know Common. Bonus languages: elven, dwarven, goblin, giant, undercommon.
I'd say +2 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha would be fine. They would have a net +0, but two above average physical stats are imo better than a +2 physical, +2 mental or than +2 in two mental: this is because a warrior can always use str and con, while no caster really need two high mental stats.
I'd also drop light sensitivity, it's too harsh and just force you to find a way around it.
