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I am gonna be running a far east flavored one shot within a couple of weeks and I would like it to be with the new shinny pathfinder rules. However for that I need to convert 2 of the classes that (in my experience) saw less play in the 3.5 era, The ninja and the samurai.
So to that end I would like to know why, why do you not find the samurai and ninja appealing as classes? (besides the samurai being worst than a fighter at every level).
What I have so far is that like the monk they would be able to to use ki points to do special things based on their respective flavor (I know the ninja is half way there on that but for some reazon it just doesn´t compare).
Last but not least I need the samurai to havea powered up version of weapon training (as the fighter) but i don´t have my books with me (im at work and this is basically a side project for the day) so if i can get a place to reference what those trainings do that would help a lot.
Thanks in advance
My preference is to use the Pathfinder fighter class to represent the samurai, and the rogue for the ninja. Changing the color of their skin or their country of origin shouldn't change the laws of reality that govern them, after all. If you absolutely must have ki powers for the ninja, then a monk/rogue multiclass works quite well.
I agree too. No need to reinvent the wheel. You could add some sort of Samurai Code, for your own benefit, to the fighter, but it would likely just need to be a roleplay thing. Otherwise, try using the Knight class from the Tome of Secretes.
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I agree with the people mentioning that there isn't any need to have special classes for those kinds of things. A ninja is easily served by being a rogue who takes certain skills/feats/talents.
Samurai is better served as a social class more then a character class, so fighter or paladin or even ranger work for that. You use a katana and are probably lawful. Gogo!
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Not to be confrontational but the consensus seems kind of weird to me. Does that mean that warmages shouldn´t exist either? (they are just evokers) Or that Scouts are just a mix between ranger and rogue. Or that a paladin is just a fighter who cna cast divine spells.
I don´t know if I´m just being silly but it seems that some slight variations of clases are alright and some are not.
I´m just curious if all those other classes also seem unnecesary.
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Triomegazero your answer is very solid and now i understand your position on most classes. And to some extent I agree with you that some classes are just tweaks made off more generalistic classes.
However planning on playing a purely oriental based game my players expect something new out of the ninja and samurai classes, and I would like to give them the feeling of excitement I got when i first read the redone classes from the Pathfinder Core Book. The feeling that someone took a concept poorly done before and made it not only fun but unique compared to other classes.
So I guess the goal would be more along the lines of ¨what can I do to make the samurai and ninja different enought from fighters and rogues to be fun playing without loosing what they originally were completly¨.
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I understand. With that in mind, the ninja class is fairly well planned if perhaps a bit underpowered. I concur with the suggestion of upping the HD and adjusting skills. Nothing else should need done. The samurai however needs more than two-weapon fighting and a generic smite. Maybe bolt on a knight's challenge mechanic.
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Not to be confrontational but the consensus seems kind of weird to me. Does that mean that warmages shouldn´t exist either? (they are just evokers) Or that Scouts are just a mix between ranger and rogue. Or that a paladin is just a fighter who cna cast divine spells.
I don´t know if I´m just being silly but it seems that some slight variations of clases are alright and some are not.
I´m just curious if all those other classes also seem unnecesary.
I agree with you totally, so in the spirit of helping out your issue....
The Knight from PHB2 is IMO a perfect fit for the Samurai class. Won't attack a flat-footed foe, his various battlefield control powers,....it's a perfect fit! Some minor adjustments for Pathfinder and a flavor is all that is needed.The Ninja class from Complete Adventurer is a great start for a ninja....!however! I would change the sudden strike(too situational) to the standard PRPG rogue's sneak attack and mirror HD and all that jazz and it's a good fit. I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel by totally overhauling existing classes.
Hope that was more helpful. Good luck.
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knight´s challenge is a good fit. I´m definetly adding that in. Also gonna add more uses for the samurai´s ¨kiai¨(based on the kiai smite) to replicate the monk´s new and improved ki powers.
On the Ninj i was trying to ind a way to keep sudden strike different from sneak attack, but power it up a bit by giving it one more circumstance where it would work (replace flanking with some other circumstance that would allow it´s use) so it would balance out with sneak attack. I was thinking maybe that sudden strike can be used automatically with attacks of op. Would that be too unbalancing?
Not to be confrontational but the consensus seems kind of weird to me. Does that mean that warmages shouldn´t exist either? (they are just evokers) Or that Scouts are just a mix between ranger and rogue. Or that a paladin is just a fighter who cna cast divine spells.
I don´t know if I´m just being silly but it seems that some slight variations of clases are alright and some are not.
I´m just curious if all those other classes also seem unnecesary.
I can only speak for myself, but most classes introduced by WotC in their complete series did not bring anything novel to my table. There are some exceptions, such as the Warlock, Binder (well all of the Tome of Magic, really) Beguiler and Scout, but most of the alternate base classes really don't, imo, add much. My groups got a lot more mileage out of variants from unearthed arcana (although we did use PHB2 and Tome of Magic quite a bit).
I think with the additional class features in PRPG, most of the classes presented in the complete series are a bit redundant. For example, the rogue, with the minor magic ability and dispelling strike, really can fill the same role as the ninja or spellblade and the dazzling display/shattered defense feat chain allows a fighter, ranger or paladin to fill the role of a samurai fairly well (since the CWar samurai was basically a 2weapon fighter with some non-magic fear abilities).
Honestly I'd look at the 3.5 Legend of the 5 Rings versions of them and scale accordingly.
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dude, the ninja was an awesome class, it saw alot of play in my group, after it came out. you get enough uses of the ki pool, sudden strike stuff to really help you get the CA. the only thing my group might consider addind is maybee give access to some rogue talents at levels that are a little light. but that would come after we have more expirience with pathfinder.
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Not to be confrontational but the consensus seems kind of weird to me. Does that mean that warmages shouldn´t exist either? (they are just evokers) Or that Scouts are just a mix between ranger and rogue. Or that a paladin is just a fighter who cna cast divine spells.
I don´t know if I´m just being silly but it seems that some slight variations of clases are alright and some are not.
I´m just curious if all those other classes also seem unnecesary.
I think the reason for the consensus, at least where the samurai is concerned, is that it's hard to determine what it means to be a samurai in the first place. It's a social class, not a profession; making a character class out of it means figuring out what it is you're actually trying to mirror with the game mechanics. From a historical point of view, the fighter class comes really rather close to the reality - you could make an argument for more skills and a different skill list, perhaps, but you wouldn't need to change much else. This is basically the path taken by the 3.0 Oriental Adventures samurai - divorced from its Rokugani origins (especially the ancestral daisho stuff, which is entirely ahistorical), the OA samurai is basically a fighter with a more limited feat list, designed to mimic programmatic training in various fighting styles.
On the other hand, you have the Western Asian-inspired mythic tradition, with its ideas about "the mystic Orient" and so on, which can lead all sorts of places, including the ludicrously weak CWar samurai. So before you decide you want to adapt the samurai class, you need to determine what it actually is you are adapting.
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Damn, I forgot about the Rokugan ninja. That's a hard one to balance in Pathfinder though. The full BAB and d6 don't lend to PF's HD-tie-in. d10 is too much, and poor BAB too little. I guess d8 and average fits best, but I liked the full BAB ninja.
Unearthed Arcana allowed for a full BAB, full sneak attack fighter. Why would that be so unbalanced in Pathfinder?
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Damn, I forgot about the Rokugan ninja. That's a hard one to balance in Pathfinder though. The full BAB and d6 don't lend to PF's HD-tie-in. d10 is too much, and poor BAB too little. I guess d8 and average fits best, but I liked the full BAB ninja.
Maybe you could go Full BAB and d10 HD and half the sudden stike damage and/or lower the ki powers/pool to balance it out?
I like to flip it around and look at it this way: what do samurai do? Well, historically, they fight, using weapons and armor. If the fighter class is insufficiently versatile to model that, then that to me is a flaw in the fighter class, not a need for a samurai class. Likewise, I'd sure like to see most if not all of the CAd Scout abilities become options for the PF ranger, and so eliminate the need for yet another class.
But then again, that's just my personal bias, that fewer classes with more options each > more classes with fewer options each, even if the total options at the end of the day are equal in number and breadth.
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Damn, I forgot about the Rokugan ninja. That's a hard one to balance in Pathfinder though. The full BAB and d6 don't lend to PF's HD-tie-in. d10 is too much, and poor BAB too little. I guess d8 and average fits best, but I liked the full BAB ninja.Unearthed Arcana allowed for a full BAB, full sneak attack fighter. Why would that be so unbalanced in Pathfinder?
Was that the Generic Class Warrior? A total of 9d6 sneak attack with all 3 of the SA feats, not too shabby!
Or were you talking about the Simple Variant where the fighter gives up bonus feats for a full SA progression? This option coupled with the Thug fighter variant would be a pretty decent option if you got rid of Martial weapon proficiency and added in the monk/ninja weapon proficiencies.Me likey option 2!
Damn, I forgot about the Rokugan ninja. That's a hard one to balance in Pathfinder though. The full BAB and d6 don't lend to PF's HD-tie-in. d10 is too much, and poor BAB too little. I guess d8 and average fits best, but I liked the full BAB ninja.
If you're comparing them to a fighter, I'd just change the HD to d8, leave the SA progression the same and consider whether the other ninja abilities are a good match for reduced armor prof, and loss of wpn and armor training.
Should be a simple conversion and if they're not PCs a little DM fudging won't hurt either for or against them.
I think a Ninja would work as a variant Rogue - essentially the same in all respects, but with a separate list of "Ninja Talents" rather than Rogue Talents, different weapon proficiencies, and the like. Or perhaps they get the "ki pool" class feature instead of Rogue Talents, but I think that the "Ninja Talents" idea works better.
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Damn, I forgot about the Rokugan ninja. That's a hard one to balance in Pathfinder though. The full BAB and d6 don't lend to PF's HD-tie-in. d10 is too much, and poor BAB too little. I guess d8 and average fits best, but I liked the full BAB ninja.Unearthed Arcana allowed for a full BAB, full sneak attack fighter. Why would that be so unbalanced in Pathfinder?Was that the Generic Class Warrior? A total of 9d6 sneak attack with all 3 of the SA feats, not too shabby!
Or were you talking about the Simple Variant where the fighter gives up bonus feats for a full SA progression? This option coupled with the Thug fighter variant would be a pretty decent option if you got rid of Martial weapon proficiency and added in the monk/ninja weapon proficiencies.
Me likey option 2!
I meant option 2 as well. I think it makes a pretty decent starting point for a ninja.
Really I think it depends entirely one what you think the ninja and samurai should be. Personally I think Samurai could be handled by the Fighter, or maybe the upcoming Cavalier. For the Ninja though, I think something different is necessary, even if it's something as simple as a rogue variant or prestige class. The ninja is different from the rogue. Personally I think I'd change they're weapon proficiencies a bit and give them some supernatural abilities in exchange for other class features at least.
Really I don't get the fear of making new classes. We have several classes already that by the standards presented here are redundant. It's probably because of the overly generic fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard classes. Why make the cleric for instance, as I have said before, something it's not supposed to be? It's supposed to be a holy warrior. If you want a "cloistered cleric", make one. I'm aware that the extreme view I have isn't very popular, but really if paladins and barbarians why not ninjas?
I understand. With that in mind, the ninja class is fairly well planned if perhaps a bit underpowered. I concur with the suggestion of upping the HD and adjusting skills. Nothing else should need done. The samurai however needs more than two-weapon fighting and a generic smite. Maybe bolt on a knight's challenge mechanic.
I dug out my CA ninja and looked at it. I think Pathfinderizing the skills and HD, and maybe turning sudden strike to PF sneak attack would be just fine. Maybe add a rogue talent every 4 or 5 levels (fast stealth looks awful attractive for this class, or maybe just grant rogue talents that fit the theme).
That would be a fun character to play.
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So using the sneak attack fighter variant, taking away the heavy armor proiciency as well as the shield prof and changing it´s weapon prficiencies. Does that justify adding the wis to AC as well as monklike ki power/pool related abilities?
I think you would need to take away all the armor proficiencies to justify a monk's AC bonuses. The SA progression, though, just replaced the bonus feats, which still allows you some wiggle room to replace armor and weapon training. The ki pool might be a suitable option there, though I'd have to think about it some before I said it for certain...
A ninja could also work as a Rogue / Assassin, come to think of it. Historically, that's what they were - contract killers that relied on their wits and wiles instead of brute strength.
A ninja base class would be good, though, I think, if someone were to go through the trouble of making/balancing one - although I'm not sure Sudden Strike is a really good idea. Sneak Attack would work much better.
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There´s gotta be a way to make sudden strike better without making it sneak attack, give it a cirsumstance when it would trigger that sneak attack doesn´t trigger with (to balance it out with the not being triggered by flanking)
So on that note did anyone think making it trigger with attacks of op was too much?
There´s gotta be a way to make sudden strike better without making it sneak attack, give it a cirsumstance when it would trigger that sneak attack doesn´t trigger with (to balance it out with the not being triggered by flanking)
So on that note did anyone think making it trigger with attacks of op was too much?
Thing is, sneak attack perfectly corresponds to the ninja's philosophy of battle, which was to fight dirty. Really Rogues are the perfect class to describe ninjas, they have talents that ninjas really like, like fast stealth, and ledge walker. They even have access to minor arcane magic. All you need to do to make them work is change their starting weapon proficiencies.
But wait, you say! Aren't ninjas capable of doing blar-de-blar-blar? Some ninjas, yes. Thing is the concept of a ninja is so broad, especially in popular fiction, that to have a class that encompasses all the tropes would be nigh impossible (believe me I have tried, I am a total ninjaphile ...). What is often best is to multiclass them, or work them into a prestige class. Rogue3/monk4/shadowdancer is pretty classic. You get 2d6 sneak attack, some ki powers to help you do acrobatics, and you can vanish in plain sight and cast illusions. BAM! there's a pretty solid ninja
Some other ninja-ish character choices
• spring attack and vital strike, many ninjas learned iaijutsu techniques as part of their training. That combined with their "dishonorable" practice of striking you while your flatfooted for extra sneak attack damage, helps make this nice way to handle foes.
• your weapons are tools. Ask your DM if its ok to trade some proficiencies for more ninja-ish weapons like a manriki gusari (essentially an UNspiked chain) or kanawanga (small grappling hook). Edit- (man once I get started ...) often what defines a ninja from any other combatant is their tools. That said a rogue already has very similar tools, smoke bombs, hidden swords, caltrops, shuriken. Ninja-to's are essentially short swords so between rogue and monk levels you have that covered. Or maybe you want to use a katana? take it as exotic weapon prof. I believe if you have access to a partial weapon prof, then you can take the exotic weapon prof. Or trade your monk levels in for fighter or ranger levels
• Improved Feint is your friend. A lot of ninjutsu strategy is about luring your opponent into a position of weakness. Crank up that bluff and feint, and get your sneak attack bonus. Maybe combine this with a custom rogue talent that reduces the penalty for feinting to use stealth and you have your classic ninja vanish.
Edit again, gosh -So another way to get more ninja for your buck is develop a prestige class that is your ninja clan. Different ninja clans were all good at different stuff. Some were great at disguises, some were great at castle infiltration, etc. A custom prestige class can help you get to the ninja style you want. If you are a DM running an asian campaign with ninjas consider making a few different ninja prestige classes and give them each a specialty.
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that´s not a bad idea, but following on the pathfinder classes modo that could be acomplished in the same way sorcerer bloodlines were done. Make a class ability that reflects the flavor of belonguign to an specific ninja clan and makes you good at different things, and of course it evolves as you grow in lvl, in the levels that don´t get sneak attack.
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To me, Samurai cannot be ignored as a Noble Class as well as a Martial Class. I agree that the fighter will work, but I think a few bard levels are necessary to open up skills and give one the points to use. Perform for some of the Noble Arts that are not Craft such as Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, etc...Knowledge History...Profession Yojimbo ;)...Perform Haiku or Koan...and at first level a Bard also gains the ability to Inspire Courage, which seems fitting.
Granted, most of the Noble Arts were cultivated in a time of peace, and some say that Samurai did it for lack of any fighting to be done; but in my mind it would be incomplete to be without one.
As for the Ninja, there are those that say that ninja were little more than Samurai that wore disguises so that they would not be recognized using dishonorable methods. Others like the idea that the ninja hid in plain sight, disguised or hired as a servant until the opportunity to complete their mission presented itself.
In the vein of the first variety, I would use the Rogue as a base and take some Fighter or Ranger levels, personally I'd use Ranger.
Also, since I didn't see it mentioned; and because not everyone has seen it. Katana = Bastard Sword
To me, Samurai cannot be ignored as a Noble Class as well as a Martial Class. I agree that the fighter will work, but I think a few bard levels are necessary to open up skills and give one the points to use. Perform for some of the Noble Arts that are not Craft such as Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, etc...Knowledge History...Profession Yojimbo ;)...Perform Haiku or Koan...and at first level a Bard also gains the ability to Inspire Courage, which seems fitting.
Granted, most of the Noble Arts were cultivated in a time of peace, and some say that Samurai did it for lack of any fighting to be done; but in my mind it would be incomplete to be without one.
As for the Ninja, there are those that say that ninja were little more than Samurai that wore disguises so that they would not be recognized using dishonorable methods. Others like the idea that the ninja hid in plain sight, disguised or hired as a servant until the opportunity to complete their mission presented itself.
In the vein of the first variety, I would use the Rogue as a base and take some Fighter or Ranger levels, personally I'd use Ranger.
Also, since I didn't see it mentioned; and because not everyone has seen it. Katana = Bastard Sword
Samurai as a class should be an exemplar of classic samurai. Anybody can make a fighter, give them a noble background, and technically "be" a samurai in the social/economic sense of the word, but really, they are more than just fighters.
Samurai would definitely have a Code of Conduct akin to that of a paladin, that holds them to the bushido code.
They might work a lot like paladins without the mercies. They might become immune to fear, provide an aura of courage for their allies. I can't rightly see them having spells so perhaps they instead pick up combat feats from a list that have classic samurai tactics, such as mounted combat, mounted archery, ranged combat feats, quickdraw, improved initiative, vital strike, power attack, weapon finesse, dazzling display, die hard, ...
You could give them a kind of old 3.5 style smite, giving them a Kiai! strike of sorts. Very aprorpos for one-hit-one-kill moments, and perhaps that culminates into something along the lines of an assassin's deathstrike for a capstone ability (but not one that relies on stealth of course).
hmmm what else. They might get a monk's still mind ability.
I am gonna be running a far east flavored one shot within a couple of weeks and I would like it to be with the new shinny pathfinder rules. However for that I need to convert 2 of the classes that (in my experience) saw less play in the 3.5 era, The ninja and the samurai.
So to that end I would like to know why, why do you not find the samurai and ninja appealing as classes? (besides the samurai being worst than a fighter at every level).
What I have so far is that like the monk they would be able to to use ki points to do special things based on their respective flavor (I know the ninja is half way there on that but for some reazon it just doesn´t compare).
Last but not least I need the samurai to havea powered up version of weapon training (as the fighter) but i don´t have my books with me (im at work and this is basically a side project for the day) so if i can get a place to reference what those trainings do that would help a lot.
Thanks in advance
Are you using the complete adventurer ninja, or the Rokugan ninja?
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i don´t know how to quote so to answer the question before, I wanna use a new ninja (ehich i just finished a prototype of today) which i will be posting for opinions when i get home. Since there are so many ninja lore around i decided to give it clans (like sorcerer bloodlines) that grant abilites as they go up in lvl based on different kind of ninjas. there are infiltrator arquetipes, assasins, swordfighting, saboteurs, staff fighting, etc. Gave them a few ki based abilities and a few rogue talents to round it up.
I have only one thing to contribute: Smite Chaos
Just my two koku. ;)
Isn't that nearly enough rice to smother a grown man just by dumping it on top of him?
(Note to self: "Five Koku Trap.")
I posted a Samurai class on the pathfinder database a little while ago, maybe it will help, I don't know.
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Ok this is my attemt at a ninja. I know the wording on the abilities needs to be elaborated but i just figured I´d post it for opinions before getting into the proper wording for each ability. As it is it´s ony ment to stablish what it should be able of doing at said levels.
NINJA
D8 hit dice / 4+ Int skills per level / proficient with all simple weapons and monk weapons / no armor proficiencies / fighter BAB??? / rogue saves.
1 Sneak attack 1d6, Ki Pool (wisdom to AC)
2 Clan Training
3 Sneak attack 1d6
4 Ki (Invisibility, as the old ninja)
5 Sneak attack 1d6
6 Clan Power
7 Sneak attack 1d6
8 Rogue Talent
9 Sneak attack 1d6
10 Clan Power
11 Sneak attack 1d6
12 Ki (mirror image using half ninja levels as caster lvl))
13 Sneak attack 1d6
14 Clan Power
15 Sneak attack 1d6
16 Rogue Talent
17 Sneak attack 1d6
18 Clan Power
19 Sneak attack 1d6
20 Ki (Incorporeal)
Clan Training. Choose clan and gain abilities as described below. Can´t change after choice is made.
Shadukin Mariasa. Weapon Focus Staff
6th can use flurry of blows with staff as monk of same level
10th one hit with each end of staff as AOO
14th gain deflect arrows (ignore requirements) and may use it with staff
18th may charge and full attack with staff
Night Claw. Skill focus stealth
6th Darkvission
10th May use hide in play sight in areas of shadowy illumination
14th Darkness as the spell as an Ex (at will)
18th All attacks considered sneak attacks in areas of shadowy illumination or worst.
Brotherhood of the Kama Skill Focus Disguise
6th Add half ninja lvl to all disable device checks
10th Use Disguise self as spell like ability at will
14th Add half your ninja levels to all bluff checks outside of combat
18th Gets to use detect thoughts at will, and can form an empathic link with an ally.
Dai sho doko. (lawfull only) Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
6th for the purpouse of weapon finesse bastard sword counts as light
10th ganan quick draw
14th May do attack as full round to demoralize all oponents (as intimidate)
18th When making full attack with bastard sword get one extra attack (not stack with haste like effects)
Sakki Oro Improved sunder (ignore prerequisites)
6th Greater Improved Sunder even if not meet requirements
10th Evasion
14th Apply sneak attack with splash weapons
18th When attempting to break stuff ignore hardness and add sneak attack
Keepers of the Black Sun (evil only) Poison Use
6th when using SA with poison add number of SA dice to poison DC
10th you become inmune to poison
14th Gain death attack like assasin (DC 10 + half ninja lvl + wis)
18th wis mod times per day inflict 2d4 negative levels with sneak attack, take 1d6 wisdom damage.
Ki Pool.
Your Ki pool is equal to your wis + half ninja levels. As long as you have one or more points in your pool add your wis to AC when wearing no armor and carrying no shield. Activating it´s abilities is a swift action and last for one round.
Rogue Talents
Pick them from the rogue´s talent list. You CANNOT pick improved talents.
As so many have already stated, the biggest problem with proposing class variants like these is coming up with what they actually are going to represent.
Is a samurai supposed to be the "sword-saint" from anime that is a katana god? Then generalist fighters that the hard-core early samurai actually were (spear, bow, mounted, sword [long and short], chain [for climbing and battle], etc), the mid-late period warrior poets and officials that used force of mind over force of body?
Fighter and Knight are the best Class representations I can personally think of, though Knight will likely need a bit of work to buff up, such as bonuses similar to the fighter (at least in one weapon group and category of armor).
The same questions really apply to Ninja as well... Highly skilled assassin? Infiltrator? Mystic warrior? All just depends on what image you are going for.
For the Ninja, the Rogue talent options do a wonderful job at mimicking all the various ninja abilities. The C.Adv ninja is not bad, though I HIGHLY RECOMMEND not using sudden strike... it reduces the power of the class needlessly, and over-complicates an otherwise simple mechanic. KISS rule and all that.
A FINAL ALTERNATIVE TO CONSIDER:
The schools presented in the Bo9S are wonderful stylistic representations of warrior abilities. It seems within the realm of balance to tack on a single school to a pre-existing class and add a tiny maneuver progression (with mechanics similar to the Swordsage or Warblade), rather than changing the class... Or you could make minor subtractions from the class to make up for the addition of a school.
EX:
Knight + Diamond Mind = Samurai
Monk - FoB + Shadow Hand = Ninja