Short Rests?

[Grimsh]

So we had a argument tonight at the game table about Short Rests. In combat, myself and another player were the only people standing with 3 others in the negatives. We finished off the rest of the baddies and we said we were going to rest. One player who was at -13 said he was going to Healing Surge because we were out of combat and taking a short rest. I said you couldn't do that as you can't use a healing surge if you are in the negatives. He said there was nothing like that because we were in a short rest.

So the question I ask is if you are in the negatives and stable can you use a healing surge if the people who are conscious are taking a short rest?

It makes no sense to me since you are dying and you are just like 'oh I am going to heal now since there is no combat'.

Thanks for the help!

[Scott Betts]

Had something up here but upon closer reading there is a sentence that contradicts what I wrote earlier.

Per page 295 of the Player's Handbook:

"When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least 1 hit point. If someone has stabilized you using the Heal skill but you receive no healing, you regain hit points after an extended rest."

Unconscious, previously dying but now stable PCs do not regain hit points on their own until they receive an extended rest.

[Matthew Koelbl]

I'm not so sure about that - some of that seems specific to healing when you are out of surges. Note the passage before that that discusses how unconscious creatures that receive no healing are restored to 1 hitpoint and become conscious after a short rest.

Now, this is the section that deals more with unconscious enemies than PCs... but the key thing there is that it makes clear an unconscious character can take a short rest. And if they can do so, while it might set you to 1 hp automatically, I see no reason why the character couldn't also choose to spend surges at the end of the short rest to be at a higher total.

The real question is whether you can take a short rest while unconscious. I see no reason why you cannot - 4E is an exception based system, so it would typically call such a thing out if that was the case, and I do not see it doing so under the 'unconscious' entry. There is evidence as mentioned above that you can be unconscious and in a short rest - and if you could not, one would equally assume you could never take an extended rest either, and thus an unconscious character would only be able to be revived by someone else applying healing.

So... I see nothing in the rules that indicates unconscious characters cannot take a short rest, and at the end of it, spend healing surges and recover encounter powers as normal. I admit the rules aren't quite clearcut here, and don't make this claim outright - but the evidence seems to support it, and I think it is clearly against the intent of the game to have unconscious characters unable to be revived - even if they have tons of healing surges left - if you don't have a conscious leader able to apply Healing Words or other healing powers to them.

[Stedd Grimwold]

Remember, in D&D terms Unconscious doesn't mean what we normally mean in the "real world"

Unconscious means:

Quote:

• You’re helpless.

• You take a -5 penalty to all defenses.
• You can’t take actions.
• You fall prone, if possible.
• You can’t flank an enemy.

To clarify further, Helpless means:

Quote:

• You grant combat advantage.

• You can be the target of a coup de grace.

So we can say that Unconscious actually means:

Quote:

• You grant combat advantage.

• You can be the target of a coup de grace.
• You take a -5 penalty to all defenses.
• You can’t take actions.
• You fall prone, if possible.
• You can’t flank an enemy.

The only thing on that list that might prevent spending a healing surge is the phrase "You can't take actions".

Let's look at short rest:

Quote:

Duration: A short rest is about 5 minutes long.

No Limit per Day: You can take as many short rests per day as you want.

No Strenuous Activity: You have to rest during a short rest. You can stand guard, sit in place, ride on a wagon or other vehicle, or do other tasks that don’t require much exertion.

Renew Powers: After a short rest, you renew your encounter powers, so they are available for your next encounter.

Spend Healing Surges: After a short rest, you can spend as many healing surges as you want. If you run out of healing surges, you must take an extended rest to regain them.

Using Powers while You Rest: If you use an encounter power (such as a healing power) during a short rest, you need another short rest to renew it so that you can use it again.

Interruptions: If your short rest is interrupted, you need to rest another 5 minutes to get the benefits of a short rest.

No where does it mention that any of those things require you to take an action. "Short rest" itself is not an action (If it were we'd know if was standard, minor, move, at-will, encounter, daily, free, etc)

It's best to not get caught up in the whole "negative hp's means I'm bleeding out". Think of a boxer laying on the mat trying to get up. He may get up (spend a healing surge when an ally heals), he may stay down while the ref counts and move closer to being pass out (failed death save), he may spontaneously get up, renewed by sheer will (rolled a 20 on death save), he may continue to try and get up, but the ref counts to 10 (makes the death save multiple times, fight is over) or he may pass out (failed 3 death saves).

Once the encounter is over, the story is served best by the characters picking themselves up, licking their wounds, and moving on. It is rarely served by having the PC bleed out while allies helplessly look on.

[Scott Betts]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

I'm not so sure about that - some of that seems specific to healing when you are out of surges. Note the passage before that that discusses how unconscious creatures that receive no healing are restored to 1 hitpoint and become conscious after a short rest.

I like this much better than the idea that a lone PC would have to wait for an extended rest to stand back up on his own. I'm just not sure if it's allowed by the rules.

I originally wrote the following (resurrected via Lazarus) as my response to this question before I found the passage about needing an extended rest:

"Not only is there no prohibition against spending healing surges after a short rest if you are unconscious, but page 295 of the Player's Handbook explicitly says that a creature who does not receive any healing is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious after a short rest (which makes it clear that you can recover on your own after a short while, and that you can take advantage of a short rest while unconscious).

Hope that clears things up for your group."

[Matthew Koelbl]

Scott Betts wrote:

I like this much better than the idea that a lone PC would have to wait for an extended rest to stand back up on his own. I'm just not sure if it's allowed by the rules.

It seems the conflict might be the passage about healing after an extended rest - but I don't see that as claiming that is the only way for the character to heal, but simply one way. Basically, what happens if you have a character out of surges and with no one able to provide them healing - they eventually recover after an extended rest.

But in addition to that, they can recover normally - by spending surges after a short rest, or having an ally use a healing power on them, or similar. Nothing I came across seemed to indicate being unconscious removes those options.

[PsychoticWarrior]

Grimsh wrote:

So we had a argument tonight at the game table about Short Rests. In combat, myself and another player were the only people standing with 3 others in the negatives. We finished off the rest of the baddies and we said we were going to rest. One player who was at -13 said he was going to Healing Surge because we were out of combat and taking a short rest. I said you couldn't do that as you can't use a healing surge if you are in the negatives. He said there was nothing like that because we were in a short rest.

So the question I ask is if you are in the negatives and stable can you use a healing surge if the people who are conscious are taking a short rest?

It makes no sense to me since you are dying and you are just like 'oh I am going to heal now since there is no combat'.

Thanks for the help!

Assuming the PC in question was stable (ie not making Death Saves) I see no problem with them taking a short rest and then use surges to heal. I would bet dollars to donuts that that is exactly how it is supposed to work given 4E's drive to eliminate the 15 minute adventuring day. I would step back a little from the situation and think - what is more fun? Them taking a quick breather (during which the unconcious PC is tended by someone to stabilize them) and then a few surges are spent to get them up and ready for some more OR everytime a combat ends with a PC in negatives the whole adventure stops as they now have to take an extended (6 hour) rest to heal up. Seems obvious to me at least!

[Zexsudel]

Perhaps this is a silly reply, but after a short rest you get your second wind back. Can't somebody just use the heal skill to use your second wind for you, therefore spending your surge making you wake up?