Wouldn't it be fun to have more shapeshifting options as a druid? Of course it would be. Maybe even some more options at higher levels? You bet!
Just expanding wild shape would probably be a bit too much, I thought of this:
The Basics
First, you get the Master of Shapes feat. This allows you to access the new transmutation (wild) spells, all of which give you extra options when using wild shape.
Wild spells are cast as a swift action, but this must be done in the same round as you use wild shape or the spell is wasted. If done so, you can emulate an additional spell with wild shape.
The Feat
MASTER OF SHAPES
You have learned to assume forms normally unavailable to druids
Prerequisite: Wild Shape Class Feature
Benefit: You add Wild spells to your druid spell list.
Normal: Druids using wild shape are limited to the forms listed in the wild shape description
The Spells
MAGICAL BEAST WILD SHAPE I
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 3
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V,S
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous, see text
When you cast this spell and use wild shape in the same round, you can use wild shape to change into a Small or Medium magical beast. In this case, wild shape functions as beast shape III.
MAGICAL BEAST WILD SHAPE II
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 4
This spell functions as magical beast shape I, except that it also allows you to use wild shape to change into a Tiny or Large magical beast. In this case, wild shape functions as beast shape IV.
DRAGON WILD SHAPE I
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 6
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V,S
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous, see text
When you cast this spell and use wild shape in the same round, you can use wild shape to change into a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. In this case, wild shape functions as form of the dragon I.
DRAGON WILD SHAPE II
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 7
This spell functions as dragon wild shape I, except that it also allows you to use wild shape to change into a Large chromatic or metallic dragon. In this case, wild shape functions like form of the dragon II.
DRAGON WILD SHAPE III
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 8
This spell functions as dragon wild shape II, except that it also allows you to use wild shape to change into a Huge chromatic or metallic dragon. In this case, wild shape functions like form of the dragon III.
GIANT WILD SHAPE I
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 7
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V,S
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous, see text
When you cast this spell and use wild shape in the same round, you can use wild shape to change into a Large humanoid creature of the giant subtype. In this case, wild shape functions as giant form I.
GIANT WILD SHAPE II
School transmutation (wild); Level wild 8
This spell functions as giant wild shape I, except that it also allows you to use wild shape to change into a Huge humanoid creature of the giant subtype. IN this case, wild shape functions as giant form II.
It seems interesting, KaeYoss...
I must admit i didn't have a focused look at the various Animal Shapes spells from Pathfinder, but i am going to do that now.
The crossover between feats and spells is original too, although i am not sure it is needed.
Why not just make these scaleable feats ?
What I'd like is input:
What do you think of this idea?
Is it too powerful? If so, what would you do to change that?
I had some ideas:
Does the ability fit at all?
I think it does: Though not as connected to nature as animals and plants, giants and dragons are still living, breathing creatures. And druids do get to change into elementals. And many magical beasts have strong ties with nature, too.
It seems interesting, KaeYoss...
Wow, that was fast. I didn't even have time to post my initial "reply" (the discussion part which I wanted to keep out of the original post)
The crossover between feats and spells is original too, although i am not sure it is needed.
Why not just make these scaleable feats ?
I wanted to have the feat to represent a special kind of druid. Not quite a PrC (since I'd be in favour of turning them into feats, anyway), but not something every druid gets to do.
The spell part was meant to be a "shape tax". I.e. you can use those other forms, but you'll have to pay a little extra, since they're not traditional wild shape material.
The whole feat/spell part is part of my considerations: How much should this cost a druid? Can you allow the spells without the extra feat? Can you allow them to be several feats and let the druid use those shapes as often as he wants (and has wild shapes)? Is what I posted above not enough, and you need an extra "tax", i.e. more uses of wild shape or higher spell levels?
What combination of requirements and costs fits best?
I personally feel like this is too powerful and a little off-flavor for the druid.
#1 The druid is nature's paladin/cleric, so to speak. He's there to protect the natural world. Giving him the ability to take the form of beings with higher intelligence really doesn't do it for me.
#2 Of all the suggested forms you've given, I think Magical Beast is the only one I would allow. I feel like Magical Beasts are the closest to animals, but even then, most of them can talk and act intelligently.
Not trying to ruin anyone's day. Just my 2c.
What I'd like is input:
What do you think of this idea?
Is it too powerful? If so, what would you do to change that?
I had some ideas:
Increase spell levels. Up every spell level by one (except maybe for magical beasts). That way, these effects are available to the druid later than they're available to wizards (nice symmetry, as druids get access to their current wild shapes a level sooner than wizards get the spells) Make the spells cost more wild shape uses. Another idea I had. What if the spells cost more? Magical Beast might still cost 1, but the others could cost 2 or even 3 uses of wild shape. Does the ability fit at all?
I think it does: Though not as connected to nature as animals and plants, giants and dragons are still living, breathing creatures. And druids do get to change into elementals. And many magical beasts have strong ties with nature, too.
I must say, I like it.
It seems balanced (maybe you could raise the spell levels of Dragons and Giants by one step, as you suggested to yourself (!?!...)), fitting with a Druid (since Summon Nature's Ally can now summon Magical Beasts and Giants as well - maybe you could create a Fey Form, too? Something like Fey Form I (Small and Medium Feys, lvl 6) and Fey Form II (Tiny and Large Feys, lvl 7)) and cool.
And it would allow for a balanced Master of Many Forms (heh, 'balanced' and 'Master of Many Forms'... two words I've never thought I could say in the same sentence...) without the need of a Prestige Class.
Have you taken a look at the Order Feats from Eberron? They have similar abilities, so they might help. I played a Halfling Druid/Rogue in a Dark Sun game with the Child of Winter Feat (dealing with Vermin), it was a lot of fun.
Vermin is probably the only type that I would consider allowing in my game if I were to have a similar ability as mentioned.
My reasoning is really about the intelligence factor. If a creature has minimal human intelligence, then it's sentient and doesn't really fall in the "nature" category for me.
#1 The druid is nature's paladin/cleric, so to speak. He's there to protect the natural world. Giving him the ability to take the form of beings with higher intelligence really doesn't do it for me.
They keep their own intelligence, anyway. This isn't really an issue. Plus, elementals are already smarter than animals.
And, as I said, I'd call elementals a lot less natural than, say, giants.
Where is my post? I've seen stuff being eaten by the boards monster when you submit it.
But my old post is just gone. It's not in any browser tab or anything.
Well, short version now:
maybe you could create a Fey Form, too?
Step one was creating equivalents for the spells that already exist.
Step two is figuring out how to do the other types. And thinking about why those types were not incorporated. I think some just won't work because they rely too much on abilities that usually don't work well with polymorph, or there are types that are way too diverse.
Have you taken a look at the Order Feats from Eberron?
Nope. I don't have any Eberron material. I was never really interested in that world.
Vermin is probably the only type that I would consider allowing in my game if I were to have a similar ability as mentioned.
My reasoning is really about the intelligence factor. If a creature has minimal human intelligence, then it's sentient and doesn't really fall in the "nature" category for me.
I think intelligence is a bad indicator for nature:
Fey - nature's wardens and embodyments - are often quite smart. Creatures like constructs and undead, on the other hand, are dumb as a door post, but as far away from nature as you can get.
I like this idea a lot. I'd probably avoid the Fey one, mostly because Fey tend to deal heavily in abilities that the current polymorph feats don't want to give you.
I honestly can't understand why people would think that Giants are less natural than plants and animals. I mean, jeez, most giants have an elemental nature to them. Dragons too! I like the spell tax, but I think you should boost the levels on the higher spells.
Perhaps a druid who chooses to explore her wild shape abilities would take a penalty on her wild empathy checks, since she's expanding her connection with the chaotic states of nature?
Vermin is probably the only type that I would consider allowing in my game if I were to have a similar ability as mentioned.
My reasoning is really about the intelligence factor. If a creature has minimal human intelligence, then it's sentient and doesn't really fall in the "nature" category for me.
I think intelligence is a bad indicator for nature:
Fey - nature's wardens and embodyments - are often quite smart. Creatures like constructs and undead, on the other hand, are dumb as a door post, but as far away from nature as you can get.
I think for me, elementals might as well be animals since they never seem to really interact with anything, it's more like they just "are".
Sorry for my poor explanation of my position, I'm not saying it's purely an intelligence thing. What I'm basically saying goes a bit deeper. If you tackle the idea that all natural creatures are fair game for Wild Shape, then why not humanoids in general? Obviously constructs and undead are not natural but magically made. Fey are the magical embodiment of nature, but still, are sentient.
I think the thing we're butting up into here is "What is nature?" and "What is intelligence?" I think the restrictions on the Druid are put in place specifically to give the impression of the druid as a caretaker of nature against those forces who have the intellect and capability of destroying nature. Humanoids, Giants, Dragons, Fey, and Magical Beasts are capable of understanding their affect on the environment and so are not within the Druid's list of possible things to Wild Shape into. Vermin, on the other hand, usually have animal intelligence and don't understand their affect on the environment.
I didn't want to derail the thread so I'll be quiet now.
I like this idea a lot. I'd probably avoid the Fey one, mostly because Fey tend to deal heavily in abilities that the current polymorph feats don't want to give you.
I honestly can't understand why people would think that Giants are less natural than plants and animals. I mean, jeez, most giants have an elemental nature to them. Dragons too! I like the spell tax, but I think you should boost the levels on the higher spells.
Perhaps a druid who chooses to explore her wild shape abilities would take a penalty on her wild empathy checks, since she's expanding her connection with the chaotic states of nature?
I'd think that Giants wouldn't be appropriate for Druids, based on the fact that Giants are most often portrayed with the worst characteristics of Humanity. They are often violent. destructive, and a remarkable strain on an ecosystem just in size alone. Add to it the concept of Giants as remorseless eating machines, especially trolls, and you've got something that is a threat to the natural balance without even trying. In Norse myth, Surtr and all the Fire Giants are responsible for turning Midgard to ash in Ragnarok.
I think for me, elementals might as well be animals since they never seem to really interact with anything, it's more like they just "are".
That makes them not animals. Animals interact with things.
Sorry for my poor explanation of my position, I'm not saying it's purely an intelligence thing. What I'm basically saying goes a bit deeper. If you tackle the idea that all natural creatures are fair game for Wild Shape, then why not humanoids in general?
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying wild shape should get humanoid shapes as well?
Wouldn't make sense. There's a thousand faces for that, and it's at will, too.
Fey are the magical embodiment of nature, but still, are sentient.
So are elementals. They're sentient.
I think the restrictions on the Druid are put in place specifically to give the impression of the druid as a caretaker of nature against those forces who have the intellect and capability of destroying nature. Humanoids, Giants, Dragons, Fey, and Magical Beasts are capable of understanding their affect on the environment and so are not within the Druid's list of possible things to Wild Shape into.
I don't see that connection. I don't see how a druid is prevented from taking giant form just because giants can make choices about how they interact with the world. A druid doesn't turn into an animal, or plant, or giant, or anything. He just assumes its shape. He's still the same druid inside, with the same outlooks and alignment and all that.
I didn't want to derail the thread so I'll be quiet now.
Nah, it's no problem. This is about the shapes a druid can take, and the reasons behind his choice, or lack of choice in some matters, are relevant to that.
I'd think that Giants wouldn't be appropriate for Druids, based on the fact that Giants are most often portrayed with the worst characteristics of Humanity.
There's nothing about that in the giant type. And there are giant types that have some of the best characteristics, too.
They are often violent. destructive, and a remarkable strain on an ecosystem just in size alone.
Let a fire elemental lose in a forest. Left to its own devices, it would burn down the wood. It's its nature.
Plus, giants have been there for thousands of years and the ecosystem has not collapsed.
I think the current list of choices is mostly a legacy thing. Druids were able to turn into animals, plants and elementals before, so they are able to do so now, too.
I think it wouldn't hurt to reshuffle the deck. Come up with a new theme, one that fits the class better.
Animals are in, obviously. They're as natural as you get.
Plants, too (though you can always say that the plants that are creatures in the D&D sense are quite unnatural)
Elementals are in because druids harness the raw elemental power that's a big nature theme - and the world is made up of those elementals, anyway.
Don't forget a thousand faces, which allows a druid to assume the shape of any small or medium-sized humanoid.
I think this list could be expanded. Let's look at what summon nature's ally considers natural creatures:
Giants are really big humanoids (and the PF rules reflect that). If they didn't fit the nature theme, they wouldn't be on the summon nature's ally list. So lets put them in
Vermin can work, too, since they're as natural as animals (the vermin distinction is a D&D thing, anyway. In real life science, they're considered animals, too). Maybe there's no vermin shape because a continuous poison effect would be too much.
Fey are embodyments of nature's virtues (be they good or evil) and wardens of what is natural. I'd put them onto the list - I think the reason they're not there is more that they rely mostly on special abilities that don't fit the polymorph theme.
Magical beasts also could work well enough. Many are still natural enough, or defenders of nature even.
Is the duration the same as that of the spell the druid is mimicking or the duration of his normal wild shape? Being able to transform into a huge dragon at 15th level (who could also cast druid spells with Natural Spell) for 15 hours seems a tad too powerful (well perhaps more than a tad).
I'm all in favor of making the druid a bit better (I allow druids to wild shape as a move action at 11th level and as a swift action at 19th level), but this seems to be overdoing it. I'm not saying it can't work, but it needs a bit of modification first.
As for the natural/non-natural, intelligent/non-intelligent argument, I can swing both ways. You could argue that dragons are not representative of nature because of their innately magical origins, but you could also say that their breath weapons and immunities make them highly representative of the elemental forces at play in the world.
Haha, this thread has brought up a very important question for the development of these feats: What is a druid?
My answer: A druid is a character who sacrifices his own form and individuality to better understand and master the faceless shapes of nature and all born of it.
Being able to transform into a huge dragon at 15th level (who could also cast druid spells with Natural Spell) for 15 hours seems a tad too powerful (well perhaps more than a tad).
It would work like wild shape, i.e. you could stay in that form for hours.
The extra spells would probably get a level raise, though.
I'm all in favor of making the druid a bit better (I allow druids to wild shape as a move action at 11th level and as a swift action at 19th level), but this seems to be overdoing it. I'm not saying it can't work, but it needs a bit of modification first.
It's not that much - they can already do huge plants or elementals on level 12. Improving it some more a couple of levels later shouldn't be too bad.
I don't particularly have anything against the system in your original post, Kaeyoss, but have you thought about simplifying the system a bit by just having an unusual wild shape cost extra uses, a la the paladin's various lay on hands or smite abilities? While sacrificing extra wild shape uses might not be as high a cost as using a higher-level spell slot up, you could balance that by perhaps making each extra type added by wild shape a different feat, similar to the Aberration Wild Shape feat in Lords of Madness.
Again, no particular problems I can see with your original idea, but staying in keeping with existing Core mechanics might make it easier for players to use, or for players to convince a skittish DM to let them use :P
I personally think that a 'spell tax' (like in KaeYoss rules) is a better idea; first of all, it forces the Druid to sacrifice his daily spell slot allotment for acquiring such unusual forms; also, it prevents a horrible abuse that it would arise at level 20th (I know, I know, most campaigns don't last at such high levels, but remember that some players do play at Epic levels), where Wild Shape can be used an unlimited number of uses per day - any kind of limitations would simply disappear, and the Druid could change into Dragons/Giants/Magical Beasts at will.
First, let me say I really like this idea. So much in fact, that I might very well adopt it.
One thing I would like to mention though is this:
Part of the wildshape "allure" is the versatility. A druid can change into whatever form is needed for a particular situation, when it arises. They aren't spontaneous spellcasters though, which means they would need to choose to memorize these [Wild] spells if they wanted to expand their wildshape repertoire.
Basically, it's an increase on the spell tax. The druid needs to cast a spell when they want to shift into something special and they need to carry around that spell in a spell slot until the situation they are looking for arises, if it does.
Obviously, situations where being a magical beast would be helpful are probably pretty common but it's still using up resources.
I guess all I am saying is that I can't quite decide if this is a bug or a feature.
Still, the concept is really sound.