Ninja Prestige Class! Need Review!

[James Johnson 272]

I know Oriental Adventures won't be out for some time, but I thought it'd be fun to homebrew some stuff that could be used in the Pathfinders campaign. I decided the 'ninja' concept would probably be better as a prestige class, since there are so many different approaches to the idea (sneaky illusionist, weapons specialist, et cetera). This particular prestige class comes from a clan of ninja dedicated to destroying fiends (evil outsiders), and I wanted to know what you guys think.

Suiyomi Ninja

HD: d8
B.A.: 3/4
3 good saves

Requirements
Skills: Acrobatics 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks.
Special: Must defeat an evil outsider whose hit dice are equal to or greater than the character's CL in the presence of a clan member.

Special
1 Monk Abilities, Sneak Attack +1d6
2 Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Secret Technique (Fiendstriker)
3 Sneak Attack +2d6
4 Bonus Feat, Secret Technique (Fiendhunter)
5 Sneak Attack +3d6, Defensive Roll
6 Secret Technique (Fiendcrusher)
7 Sneak Attack +4d6
8 Bonus Feat, Secret Technique (Fiendstalker)
9 Sneak Attack +5d6
10 Succession Technique (Fiendslayer)

Class Skills (4+int modifier)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Escape Artist, intimidate, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Suiyomi Ninja is proficient with the dagger, sickle, quarterstaff, sling, kukri, starknife, short sword, long sword, bastard sword, greatsword, scythe, kama, nunchaku, sai, siangham, two-bladed sword, shuriken, composite/long bows, and composite/short bows.
Suiyomi Ninja do not gain any proficiency with armor or shields.

Class Features

Monk Abilities: A Suiyomi Ninja's class levels stack with any monk levels he may have to determine unarmed damage, AC bonus, and movement speed, as well as the effectiveness of his Flurry of Blows ability. These levels also count as monk levels for use of the Stunning fist feat, though they do not grant the feat to someone who does not already have it.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the Rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If a Suiyomi Ninja gets sneak attack damage from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 2nd level, a Suiyomi Ninja can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a Suiyomi Ninja can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Darkvision (Su): At 2nd level, a Suiyomi gains darkvision out to 60 feet. If he already had darkvision from another source (such as the dwarven racial ability), then extend the range of the darkvision by 60 feet.

Secret Technique (Fiendstriker) (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Suiyomi Ninja adds his class level to any damage rolls against evil outsiders.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and again at 8th level, a Suiyomi Ninja may select a bonus feat from the following list; Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style, Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility, Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Trip. All prerequisites must be met in order to take the feat.

Secret Technique (Fiendhunter) (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Suiyomi Ninja adds his class level to all Survival, Stealth, and Sense Motive checks made against evil outsiders.

Defense Roll (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a Suiyomi Ninja can attempt to avoid a lethal blow. This functions as the rogue’s Advanced Talent of the same name.

Secret Technique (Fiendcrusher) (Sp): Starting at 6th level, a Suiyomi Ninja can make a single attack at his highest base attack bonus against an evil outsider as a standard action. If the attack is successful, the victim is subject to a targeted Greater Dispel Magic effect (Caster level is equal to Ninja Class Level). In addition, all of the target’s supernatural and spell-like abilities are suppressed for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 plus your Charisma modifier. Durations do not stack, nor do they overlap. When Fiendcrusher is used on the same enemy again, regardless of whether or not the attack is successful, any previous Fiendcrusher effects are dispelled.

Secret Technique (Fiendstalker) (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a Suiyomi Ninja adds his class level to all skill checks made against evil outsiders (this replaces the Fiendhunter effect, but stacks with bonuses from any other source, such as a Ranger’s favored enemy bonus). Also, he receives a +2 bonus on any CMB or CMD checks opposing an Evil Outsider.

Succession Technique (Fiendslayer) (Su): Upon reaching 10th level, a Suiyomi Ninja has become a master of destroying his hated enemies; the fiends. If a ninja studies his target (must be an evil outsider) for three consecutive rounds and makes a successful sneak attack against his foe, the victim must succeed on a will save (DC 12+Ninja lvl+Cha Modifier) or be obliterated. Foes destroyed in this manner are not sent back to their home plane, but actually erased from existence. If the target makes its save, the attack does sneak attack damage as normal. If a Fiendslayer attack fails (the subject makes its save), or the ninja does not launch the attack within three rounds of completing the study, 3 more rounds of consecutive study are required before he can make another Fiendslayer attack.

------------------

I balanced it as best I could against the Assassin prestige class from the core rulebook. I'd really like to know if you guys think it's over/under powered, and if you have any suggestions for either flavor or mechanical improvement.

If you guys like this one, or are willing to help out, I'll post some more of these as I make them.

[Dennis da Ogre]

My first impression of this class is "Why on earth would anyone stick with rogue if this class were available?"

Take one level of monk, 5 levels of rogue then go into this class. Since you get sneak attack at first level in this class you are back on you have the same sneak attack as a rogue the same level. About the only thing the rogue has over this class is a few skill points and rogue talents which frankly don't come close to the benefits you describe.

Some things that stand out:
#1 3 good saves... really? Is that really necessary? I think 3 good saves should be limited to just a few classes and when you consider that this class is likely to be a multi class monk character this is really overkill.

#2 SA progression should be moved to 2nd level to avoid the temptation of 1 level dip for rogue characters. Maybe move fiendstriker to 1st level.

#3 You've loaded a lot of nice abilities into your second level. In particular Hide in Plain Sight which is pretty powerful... And there is no downside to getting this feature, it's way better than any rogue talent.

#4 Full SA and Monk flurry progression...

out of time BBL

[James Johnson 272]

Hmm... So, perhaps I'll drop it to just Reflex, or Reflex and Will.

Sneak attack to 2nd level progression is easy enough... though I like having the techniques be every even level. Maybe I should switch them? Though, that means I need to mix up the capstone a little bit...

Maybe Hide in Plain Sight should be dropped? Or moved to a higher level? Maybe 6th... It's the first ability the Shadowdancer Prc grants, so I didn't think much of it when I put it in.

And as for Flurry/Sneak, I thought about making the Sneak Attacks apply only to evil outsiders, but that seems to limit the application too much. Maybe sneak attack damage is halved against other targets?

Thanks for the review! I'm really hoping to get this thing to a useable form for my next campaign.

[James Johnson 272]

Hmm... So, perhaps I'll drop it to just Reflex, or Reflex and Will.

Sneak attack to 2nd level progression is easy enough... though I like having the techniques be every even level. Maybe I should switch them? Though, that means I need to mix up the capstone a little bit...

Maybe Hide in Plain Sight should be dropped? Or moved to a higher level? Maybe 6th... It's the first ability the Shadowdancer Prc grants, so I didn't think much of it when I put it in.

And as for Flurry/Sneak, I thought about making the Sneak Attacks apply only to evil outsiders, but that seems to limit the application too much. Maybe sneak attack damage is halved against other targets?

Thanks for the review! I'm really hoping to get this thing to a useable form for my next campaign.

[hida_jiremi]

James Johnson 272 wrote:

I know Oriental Adventures won't be out for some time, but I thought it'd be fun to homebrew some stuff that could be used in the Pathfinders campaign. I decided the 'ninja' concept would probably be better as a prestige class, since there are so many different approaches to the idea (sneaky illusionist, weapons specialist, et cetera). This particular prestige class comes from a clan of ninja dedicated to destroying fiends (evil outsiders), and I wanted to know what you guys think.

I don't have a lot of mechanical input about this, but since I got into a little bit of a fight about OA-type stuff on another thread, I wanted to stop in and thank you for acknowledging the cultural importance of the ninja while not trying to reinvent the wheel. That is to say: individual "ninja" can be covered by rogues, monks, or other base classes, while weird ninja abilities get relegated to prestige classes.

So again, thank you.

Jeremy Puckett

[gamer-printer]

Just looking at other's point of view regarding oriental settings, since I am a 3pp developing Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting.

For me the issues of level dipping in Kaidan are non-existent. In most cases the various classes are divided by caste and one is restricted to one's caste until PC death. Also only the monk is available for cross-classing among the Commoner Caste.

In Kaidan, ninja is a base class and a member of the Commoner Caste. One must be born within a ninja clan to become ninja, there's no other way in. Thus making Ninja a prestige class, at least for Kaidan makes no sense whatsoever.

For the most part, classes and castes are based on historical Japan, not Rokugan, so lots of the fluff/mechanic direction of Rokugan isn't even Japanese, so very much an unworkable system to emulate (Rokugan that is.)

I've tried to balance my Ninja, against the Rogue class, so not to be overly more powerful than it. In Kaidan, a Ninja's weird powers are limited access to psionic powers. However a ninja can cross-class with a Monk, as any Commoner caste is allowed to.

GP

[James Johnson 272]

gamer-printer wrote:

In Kaidan, ninja is a base class and a member of the Commoner Caste. One must be born within a ninja clan to become ninja, there's no other way in. Thus making Ninja a prestige class, at least for Kaidan makes no sense whatsoever.

GP

I understand how the idea of a ninja prestige class might be unusable to some publishers. If, in your campaign setting, ninja are part of a caste system, then it would make sense that one could not 'become' a ninja later in life. But the broader spectrum of Pathfinders have no such caste system, and so this prestige class makes more sense in those non-restrictive settings.

I wanted to come up with a few organizations from differing settings (oriental chief among them) that could be blended directly into the pseudo-medieval theme of the general DnD universe, rather than having an entirely separate campaign for them.

[Hydro]

I would grant ninja abilities and misc. powers at odd levels, SA at even levels. Prestige class shouldn't grant SA at 1st level because it lets rogue get a leg-up on their progression. Basically, you should assume that a rogue is coming into this class from an odd (SA-granting) level, and continue it accordingly.

Also, it's nice to get a cool new power on entering a PrC, rather than more of something you already have.

Defensive Roll and Secret Technique (fiendcrusher) should probably come at the same level. No special reason other than that it fits the rhythm of the class better, and makes the power curve smoother (as SA is a powerful ability).
Like thus:

(ninja power and darkvision)
(SA)
(ninja power and bonus feat)
(SA)
(ninja power and defensive roll)
(SA)
(ninja power and bonus feat)
(SA)

Does that make sense?

I'm not sure how you would want to do the last two levels of your class then, but I think there is room for another power at 9th level. Your capstone was looking a little weak anyway (not that it isn't cool, but it's very limited in use, and capstones in Pathfinder are hella-powerful).

I would come up with a moderately powerful ability to hold down the 9th character level, and then have level ten be
(SA, Fiendslayer)

Overall, though, this looks good. Nice flavor for the fiend-hunting ninja. The powers are much less useful that rogue talents would be, but with the 'martial arts' stuff to counterbalance it it looks about right.

[Krome]

James Johnson 272 wrote:

Suiyomi Ninja

HD: d8
B.A.: 3/4
3 good saves

Requirements
Skills: Acrobatics 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks.
Special: Must defeat an evil outsider whose hit dice are equal to or greater than the character's CL in the presence of a clan member.

Special
1 Monk Abilities, Sneak Attack +1d6
2 Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Secret Technique (Fiendstriker)
3 Sneak Attack +2d6
4 Bonus Feat, Secret Technique (Fiendhunter)
5 Sneak Attack +3d6, Defensive Roll
6 Secret Technique (Fiendcrusher)
7 Sneak Attack +4d6
8 Bonus Feat, Secret Technique (Fiendstalker)
9 Sneak Attack +5d6
10 Succession Technique (Fiendslayer)

I would drop the three good saves, and give them either good REF or good WILL. Since they are specialized for fiend hunting either could be useful.

I would move Sneak Attack +1d6 to 2nd level and top off at +4d6, and drop Darkvision to 1st.

I wouldn't worry too much at all about level dipping as the Special Prerequisite just about eliminates that. That is not a prereq that can just be done with number crunching. Which I applaud you for. Too often PrCs just go simple number crunching and don't bother putting the organization or society into the mix.

Without actually playing it out, that is the best I can offer at the moment. Pretty solid idea, just needs to be tweaked a little bit. I suspect it is workable though.

[Hydro]

I didn't really address the three good saves, did I?

I'm of the opinion that two would be enough (reflex and will?). The difference between a good save and a bad save is +2 at 1st level, +4 by 10th. Three would be pushing it.

If you do stick with 3 good saves, though, then maybe just having darkvision at level 1 is a good idea (as having 3 good saves makes the first level of a class very good).

I don't think that flavor prerequisites allow you to ignore balance concerns on any level. Mechanically, your class is incredibly easy to join, which means that the power you grant needs to be directly comparable to a straight-class rogue of the same level.

[James Johnson 272]

@ Hydro and Chrome

Thanks a lot guys! I'm glad you took the time to give me some feedback on this. I only just woke up, but I'll come back and post an edited version later today.

[James Johnson 272]

Krome wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much at all about level dipping as the Special Prerequisite just about eliminates that. That is not a prereq that can just be done with number crunching. Which I applaud you for. Too often PrCs just go simple number crunching and don't bother putting the organization or society into the mix.

This is actually something I houserule into every prestige class. I.E., you cannot take a level in a prestige class without first meeting/impressing a member of the organisation that said class represents. Exceptions can be made for certain, generic prestige classes, but most of the time I see this as the perfect way to stop dipping, provide RP fodder and scenario bait, and prevent bizarre, 4-or-5- class combination characters.

[Hydro]

How does this prevent that?

Do you just say "no" after the first one? You could do that with or without initiation rituals.

[veector]

James Johnson 272 wrote:

This is actually something I houserule into every prestige class. I.E., you cannot take a level in a prestige class without first meeting/impressing a member of the organisation that said class represents. Exceptions can be made for certain, generic prestige classes, but most of the time I see this as the perfect way to stop dipping, provide RP fodder and scenario bait, and prevent bizarre, 4-or-5- class combination characters.

I agree.. perfect fix.

[James Johnson 272]

Hydro wrote:

How does this prevent that?

Do you just say "no" after the first one? You could do that with or without initiation rituals.

I try not to set up too many rules without some form of RP reason, since it keeps my players happier that way. If they can't join the Assassin's Guild because the guildmembers know of the PC's alliance to, say, my ninja clan, and don't approve, that's a better solution than 'I say so.'

At least, that's how I run my groups. And if a player can figure out an in-character way to be a part of three different groups with possibly differing outlooks, objectives, and methods, then I'll let it
go.

Until I feel sadistic enough to pit two or more of those organisations against one another to screw with them. But that would be mean...

[Hydro]

The thing there is that you're granting greater freedom to players with more narrative creativity. I've come up with several characters who floated from class to class to class with perfectly sound story justifications (which, don't think, made them one lick more balanced than if it'd just been handwaved).

You also, in that case, really want to think about characters who join the organization then leave. "They try to kill him" is a fair response, but not exactly a punitive one: doesn't every campaign need antagonists anyway?
(also, if a character who joins the organization then leaves loses the ability to advance- or worse, loses existing class features- you should be very clear on that).

Further, and especially in Pathfinder, it's very possible that a character will take a one-level dip and then go back to his core class.

If you'll forgive the tangent, my point is that having gameworld-roots for your PrCs is awesome, but that doesn't excuse you from having to make sure that they are balanced no matter how many levels a character takes. Which I think this one is, for the record. :)

[veector]

Hydro wrote:

If you'll forgive the tangent, my point is that having gameworld-roots for your PrCs is awesome, but that doesn't excuse you from having to make sure that they are balanced no matter how many levels a character takes. Which I think this one is, for the record. :)

I'm not bashing the level-dip. I just think that players ALWAYS need game-world reasons for their actions and back it up with quests and roleplaying. Otherwise it just seems like shallow metagaming.

[James Johnson 272]

You both have valid points there. Like I said, I put this up here so I could get ideas on how to balance it. Just about anything I make is going to be either over or under powered at first, so I have to edit it in some way or another.

As for the level-dipping argument, you are absolutely right. It does reward creative players with more freedom in their character building. But that's exactly the kind of thing I try to encourage. I only take away a prestige class's benefits if the PC actually widthraws or is dismissed from the organisation, much like how the 3.0 pally worked. Supernatural and sp abilities are gone, as are spells (if the class grants any), but base attack, saves, hit dice, and ex abilities stay.

If the character really does end up unbalanced, say if they somehow end up with access to a much stronger item or ability than their level should have, I talk it over with them and try to find a compromise. It's no fun if I have to take away all their toys through deific intervention.