Thought 1: Broken Paladins?
I thought I'd kick this out for thought as I was reading proposed enhancements to the Paladin class. Somewhere in there as the suggestion to boost divine strike...
My current paladin is orientated to battling from his horse. Hence he has all the feats for mounted combat. He also has extra smiting as a feat. On a charge he can smite for over 100 points of damage. (lance +3, smite, STR, Power attack, triple damage, trample) (1d8+3, +10, +4, +7, x3, +6)@ 112 damage on a ride by attack that places him out of melee range.
Take into the magical nature of the world (lower as our campaign is)he still has been able to purchase flying for his mount and owns superior weaponry to the lance listed.
Now they want to increase the power of divine strike to 1d6 per level? average 2.5 more damage per level x3 = +75 more damage and ignoring DR? .. my DM will quit and rightfully so lol. My PC is already an evil/undead wrecking machine.
Rant 2:
The biggest problem in 3.5 is the overpower of spellcasters. In 3.5 lower magic worlds a sorcerer can defeat most melee characters ... in melee combat (using spells). That's ridiculous. My argument is not to boost the melee characters any more... make the spellcasters inherently weaker/vulnerable in close range.
1. Smite only works against one designated opponent now, so factoring it into your damage every round is incredibly deceptive.
2. Yes, this is THE problem with 3.5. Look at the Pathfinder rules: a lot of the save-or-die/save-or-suck spells have been nerfed slightly, and casting defensively now has a minute (but at least detectable) chance of failure.
3. (Please delete your duplicate thread.)
Kirth Gersen wrote: 1. Smite only works against one designated opponent now, so factoring it into your damage every round is incredibly deceptive.
2. Yes, this is THE problem with 3.5. Look at the Pathfinder rules: a lot of the save-or-die/save-or-suck spells have been nerfed slightly, and casting defensively now has a minute (but at least detectable) chance of failure.
Unlike 4.0 (not meaning to start an argument, just stating a fact), in which sorcerers and wizards become much more powerful with lots of at-will spells.
Anyways, I find this funny, as a long time ago, people were arguing that the pally is underpowered.
Paladins get some really powerful abilities, but around here we strictly adhere to the Lawful Good alignment requirement, meaning that 95% of the players I play with wouldn't make it far as a Paladin. It's a very difficult class to play, because while the rest of the party is off partying, trashing stuff, even doing some dealings on the side, the Paladin can't join in. But, for us, that's what makes Paladins special. It takes a certain kind of mindset to play one well, otherwise you're a nerfed fighter. But, the rare gamer who plays the Paladin typically become the backbone of the party, as well as the trusted leader. I have a friend who plays the role to the hilt, sort of like the party's big brother.
As far as brokenness, again, look at what it takes to even be a Paladin; they deserve at least a little something for what they go through.
eric warren wrote: ...
My current paladin is orientated to battling from his horse. Hence he has all the feats for mounted combat. He also has extra smiting as a feat. On a charge he can smite for over 100 points of damage. (lance +3, smite, STR, Power attack, triple damage, trample) (1d8+3, +10, +4, +7, x3, +6)@ 112 damage on a ride by attack that places him out of melee range.
First lets fix some math here. In PRPG Power Attack uses your BAB or Str bonus which ever is lower and a Lance is a one handed weapon while mounted. So the +7 becomes +4. You can't trample and hit with your lance so the last +6 is removed as I am assuming thats where the +6 is coming from.
So then we are back to the following assuming an average lance damage of 7: 7+10+4+4=25 then x3=75 damage not 112. Not even sure how your above math gets to 112 as I get only 90.
eric warren wrote: .......
Now they want to increase the power of divine strike to 1d6 per level? average 2.5 more damage per level x3 = +75 more damage and ignoring DR? .. my DM will quit and rightfully so lol. My PC is already an evil/undead wrecking machine.
...
The problem here is that extra dice(ie Sneak Attack, Skirmish damage) don't get multiplied. They simply get added straight in at a value of 3.5 per 1d6 dice. So that would seem to maybe calm your paladin down a bit.
Face a Neutral opponent in a dungeon with no room for a horse, Hmmm... not so scary now.
While the Barbarian just keeps on killing.
It's all situational.
Kirth Gersen wrote: 1. Smite only works against one designated opponent now, so factoring it into your damage every round is incredibly deceptive.
2. Yes, this is THE problem with 3.5. Look at the Pathfinder rules: a lot of the save-or-die/save-or-suck spells have been nerfed slightly, and casting defensively now has a minute (but at least detectable) chance of failure.
3. (Please delete your duplicate thread.)
1. MMmm .. I'm assuming you designate the opponent at the start of each round .. so I don't see the disadvantage, lest its one foe per combat.
2. In my world we nerfed the save or die spells a little differently. Each would have a save modifier (like 2, 3 or 4) If a PC failed the save by the save modifier range .. the spell would succeed but with a lesser effect. Ex. Hold person (mod 2: slow per spell), Let's say the DC is 18 .. If a PC rolls a 16 (2 less) he is within the mod. Technically he still fails but the effect instead of paralysis is to be slowed per the spell for the same duration. This way there IS still a chance of a poorly defensed character getting the lethal effect (which is kinda cool and scary), however it keeps min maxed spellcasters (can you say spell focus, greater spell focus, head bands of intellect, etc.) from auto-winning.
Also we removed 5 ft step .. we made it 4'11" step. Meaning you can move the 5 feet, but not to get out of attack range to cast. (lets face it a fighter in melee isnt going to allow that)
Further we made damage accumulate for the purpose of concentration checks per round rather than at moment of casting.
Sounds like a lot but in a low magic world spell casters are inherently high magic/high power. Even with these changes they are still the strongest forces in the world at high levels ... just now they dont make the rest of the party arbitrary.
Jandrem wrote: Paladins get some really powerful abilities, but around here we strictly adhere to the Lawful Good alignment requirement, meaning that 95% of the players I play with wouldn't make it far as a Paladin. It's a very difficult class to play, because while the rest of the party is off partying, trashing stuff, even doing some dealings on the side, the Paladin can't join in. But, for us, that's what makes Paladins special. It takes a certain kind of mindset to play one well, otherwise you're a nerfed fighter. But, the rare gamer who plays the Paladin typically become the backbone of the party, as well as the trusted leader. I have a friend who plays the role to the hilt, sort of like the party's big brother.
As far as brokenness, again, look at what it takes to even be a Paladin; they deserve at least a little something for what they go through.
I agree completely. Paladins MUST adhere to a high standard in our world .. Im usually the only one my group will let play one simply because I stay in character morally and its always a debate wether to allow one at all due to the restrictions it puts on the rest of the party. They should have some benefits above other classes for this adherence. My question was wether my use of smite with the new rules makes it too strong...
eric warren wrote: 1. MMmm .. I'm assuming you designate the opponent at the start of each round .. so I don't see the disadvantage, lest its one foe per combat. My understanding of the preview for the final is that you designate one (1) individual evil opponent, and the smiting lasts until that specific opponent is defeated, and it doesn't work against anyone else. There's no "per round" anymore, and if you have smite evil 1/day, that means 1 person/day, total.
Smite evil lasts until the designated foe is "vanquished." There's been some debate as to what that means, but it certainly doesn't sound like you can change smite targets every round, unless you're killing one a round. And I assume there's still a limit as to how many smite evils one gets in a day.
eric warren wrote: Jandrem wrote: Paladins get some really powerful abilities, but around here we strictly adhere to the Lawful Good alignment requirement, meaning that 95% of the players I play with wouldn't make it far as a Paladin. It's a very difficult class to play, because while the rest of the party is off partying, trashing stuff, even doing some dealings on the side, the Paladin can't join in. But, for us, that's what makes Paladins special. It takes a certain kind of mindset to play one well, otherwise you're a nerfed fighter. But, the rare gamer who plays the Paladin typically become the backbone of the party, as well as the trusted leader. I have a friend who plays the role to the hilt, sort of like the party's big brother.
As far as brokenness, again, look at what it takes to even be a Paladin; they deserve at least a little something for what they go through.
I agree completely. Paladins MUST adhere to a high standard in our world .. Im usually the only one my group will let play one simply because I stay in character morally and its always a debate wether to allow one at all due to the restrictions it puts on the rest of the party. They should have some benefits above other classes for this adherence. My question was wether my use of smite with the new rules makes it too strong... I'm looking forward to PFing my PAlly from 3.5... first one I've plyed in years but i'm having a blast...My group now knows how annoying a Pally can be...lol...but I did have to arrange an atonement for the LG group cleric...and let him wear my phylactery of faithfulness to keep him on track... its not that LG is hard to play...its just its hard to acheive the mindset for most folks...
I do wonder what I'm gonna do with the serenity and sacred healing feats when i convert...but I'm sure I'll come up with something
ShadowChemosh wrote: eric warren wrote: ...
My current paladin is orientated to battling from his horse. Hence he has all the feats for mounted combat. He also has extra smiting as a feat. On a charge he can smite for over 100 points of damage. (lance +3, smite, STR, Power attack, triple damage, trample) (1d8+3, +10, +4, +7, x3, +6)@ 112 damage on a ride by attack that places him out of melee range.
First lets fix some math here. In PRPG Power Attack uses your BAB or Str bonus which ever is lower and a Lance is a one handed weapon while mounted. So the +7 becomes +4. You can't trample and hit with your lance so the last +6 is removed as I am assuming thats where the +6 is coming from.
Ahh Im new to the PRPG rules. I like the power attack change. It was never clear whether trample could work with the attack as the mount could in theory attack independently. It just made sense to us it could charge and run someone over in the same motion as a charge.
So then we are back to the following assuming an average lance damage of 7: 7+10+4+4=25 then x3=75 damage not 112. Not even sure how your above math gets to 112 as I get only 90.
I used full lance damage for illustration and typed 112 instead of 102 by accident.
eric warren wrote: .......
Now they want to increase the power of divine strike to 1d6 per level? average 2.5 more damage per level x3 = +75 more damage and ignoring DR? .. my DM will quit and rightfully so lol. My PC is already an evil/undead wrecking machine.
...
The problem here is that extra dice(ie Sneak Attack, Skirmish damage) don't get multiplied. They simply get added straight in at a value of 3.5 per 1d6 dice. So that would seem to maybe calm your paladin down a bit.
That would be more sensible. In 3.5 it was straight damage (+10) vs added dice.
Dragonsage47 wrote: eric warren wrote: Jandrem wrote: Paladins get some really powerful abilities, but around here we strictly adhere to the Lawful Good alignment requirement, meaning that 95% of the players I play with wouldn't make it far as a Paladin. It's a very difficult class to play, because while the rest of the party is off partying, trashing stuff, even doing some dealings on the side, the Paladin can't join in. But, for us, that's what makes Paladins special. It takes a certain kind of mindset to play one well, otherwise you're a nerfed fighter. But, the rare gamer who plays the Paladin typically become the backbone of the party, as well as the trusted leader. I have a friend who plays the role to the hilt, sort of like the party's big brother.
As far as brokenness, again, look at what it takes to even be a Paladin; they deserve at least a little something for what they go through.
I agree completely. Paladins MUST adhere to a high standard in our world .. Im usually the only one my group will let play one simply because I stay in character morally and its always a debate wether to allow one at all due to the restrictions it puts on the rest of the party. They should have some benefits above other classes for this adherence. My question was wether my use of smite with the new rules makes it too strong... I'm looking forward to PFing my PAlly from 3.5... first one I've plyed in years but i'm having a blast...My group now knows how annoying a Pally can be...lol...but I did have to arrange an atonement for the LG group cleric...and let him wear my phylactery of faithfulness to keep him on track... its not that LG is hard to play...its just its hard to acheive the mindset for most folks...
lol yes the party tends to find the Paladin preachy and annoying ... My paladin actually left his brother sealed in a tomb he caught him within robbing the dead (shoulda seen my buddy's face who plays the brother). The party convinced the Paladin he was redeemable and he was back in play a couple sessions later. (once in a great while the Paladin gets to be the prick ;)
The paladin only seems annoying though right until the battle with (vampire, lich, ______ <- enter badass undead here). Paladins have a permanent personal pro. evil in our world and 5' aura that lends +1 def vs evil. (Dominated paladins by evil creatures never made sense to me)
I do wonder what I'm gonna do with the serenity and sacred healing feats when i convert...but I'm sure I'll come up with something
Joana wrote: Smite evil lasts until the designated foe is "vanquished." There's been some debate as to what that means, but it certainly doesn't sound like you can change smite targets every round, unless you're killing one a round. And I assume there's still a limit as to how many smite evils one gets in a day. This is correct. I won Paizo Fight Club at PaizoCon when Jason Bulmahn announced "Mind switch! Everyone pass your character to the left!" I was handed a paladin (built under the new rules) that already had his smite evil turned on and was fighting an undead creature. I rolled a crit and my point total soared through the roof!
It lasted until that foe was dead, and that was it. You can't transfer the ability to another creature. You pick a bad dude, and you SMITE him!
Brandon
My newer gaming group and I recently start a Drow Wars campaign using Pathfinder rules, and my friend I mentioned above indeed rolled up a new Paladin, to see what's new in the PF rules. I'm really looking forward to DMing this, since the majority of our players play evil characters with hidden agendas; it's nice to have at least 1 actual Good player in the party!
Jandrem wrote: Paladins get some really powerful abilities, but around here we strictly adhere to the Lawful Good alignment requirement, meaning that 95% of the players I play with wouldn't make it far as a Paladin. It's a very difficult class to play, because while the rest of the party is off partying, trashing stuff, even doing some dealings on the side, the Paladin can't join in. But, for us, that's what makes Paladins special. It takes a certain kind of mindset to play one well, otherwise you're a nerfed fighter. But, the rare gamer who plays the Paladin typically become the backbone of the party, as well as the trusted leader. I have a friend who plays the role to the hilt, sort of like the party's big brother.
As far as brokenness, again, look at what it takes to even be a Paladin; they deserve at least a little something for what they go through.
I find it easy to play a Paladin.
The code only enforces what most of my characters would do anyway.
I've even played Paladin like characters with other game systems in other genres, such as the mountie I played in a Spirit of the Century game (based on Fraser from Due South) Of course he wouldn't break the law by going to speakeasies in 1930s New York, but he could still party at the Canadian embassy :)
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