There was a cool astrology article in Dragon a few years back...
Has anyone done an astrology conversion for Golarion?
Hah! Interesting that this gets called out. We took a lot of heat for that issue back in the day, though I always thought it was pretty neat. As for what skill governs that sort of information, I could see it spun as Knowledge (arcana), though a few ranks in Knowledge (nature) (for the stars part) might give you a bonus.
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Children of the Void (Second Darkness Chapter 2) has got the Golarion solar system described, with all the planets, etc.I hope there's an ice cream planet. :P
So, knowledge nature for astronomy and knowledge arcana for astrology?
According to PRPG, each knowledge skill covers the following:
• Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane
symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical
beasts)
• Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes,
spelunking)
• Engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges,
fortifications)
• Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
• History (wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
• Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws,
customs, traditions, humanoids)
• Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids,
plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
• Nobility (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes,
personalities, royalty)
• Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral
Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic
related to the planes)
• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history,
ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
IMO, Geography would be the best skill for planetary and star knowledge, perhaps with a +5/+10/+15 to the DC if the planet, star or moon is not directly visible with the naked eye (i.e. if a spyglass, telescope or observatory, respectively, would be required to even observe/spot it). Knowledge (Geography) is the sister skill of Survival anyway (the "academic" side of survival, if you will; i.e. the science to its engineering), and Survival uses the Sun and the stars for overland/oversea navigation (i.e. the "not getting lost" application of Survival).
Profession (astronomer) would be required for anything of substantial details (peoples/cultures living on other planets), as this is a rather narrow body of knowledge (as narrow as say, beer brewing, at least! :P)
I would also rule that clerics of Desna could use Knowledge (religion) in lieu of Knowledge (geography) or Profession (astronomer) as the stars/planets are at the core of their religion and probably deeply embedded within their holy scripture and body of knowledge.
If you're an elf, I'd allow Knowledge (history) for very basic info due to the elfgates linking several planets.
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• Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical
beasts)
• Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
• Engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
• Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
• History (wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
• Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
• Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
• Nobility (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities, royalty)
• Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
I would think that for astrology purposes, Arcana would make the most sense. Astrology is closest in the list to ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, all of which are Arcana. Seasons and cycles might fit as well, so perhaps Nature (but I would impose a -2 to the roll for not quit the right fit).
For Astronomy, I would think Nature would fit the bill best, mostly because seasons and cycles have been associated with Astronomy since ancient times. Geography deals more with terrestrial uses (and while navigating would use the stars, a navigator would not really know astronomical information- constellation names and locations yes but that is about all).
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Hah! Interesting that this gets called out. We took a lot of heat for that issue back in the day, though I always thought it was pretty neat. As for what skill governs that sort of information, I could see it spun as Knowledge (arcana), though a few ranks in Knowledge (nature) (for the stars part) might give you a bonus.
Why did you guys catch flack for that issue?
Why did you guys catch flack for that issue?
Some folks didn't feel it was an appropriately D&D topic... whatever that means. :P
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Hah! Interesting that this gets called out. We took a lot of heat for that issue back in the day, though I always thought it was pretty neat. As for what skill governs that sort of information, I could see it spun as Knowledge (arcana), though a few ranks in Knowledge (nature) (for the stars part) might give you a bonus.Why did you guys catch flack for that issue?
The main reason I'm thinking Geography would work best for astronomy is that in my first year of Junior High, my first Geography class was about the solar system (diameter/circumference of each planet, time required to circle the sun, duration of a typical day on each planet, distance of planets from the sun or from each other, etc.)
Part of me is also trying to make Knowl:geography more useful. So I'm a little biased here, as I absolutely hate Knowl:arcana being the answer to everything "weird" in the game...
There's religious nuts in every religion; that's what that is.
The same kind of people who thought D+D encouraged devil worship and made kids go on killing sprees.
I got the Harrow cards a while back. They're not Tarot cards, just a similarly neat world-specific way to add some flavor. Some nuts would give you flak for that!What was so evil about Harry Potter, again?
I always liked Spelljammer.
Now, before I get dogpiled, let me say I liked the concept. The execution was *$&%^#.
Flying through space on a magical ship is just cool. The 2e rules and integration into the existing gameworlds were the sucky parts, and giant space hamsters are a little too Monty Python even for me, but the concept was cool.
High level characters might be able to go to other planets using greater teleport or wish spells, but at lower levels, it's portals or nothing.
A mid-level campaign to find ancient MacGuffins scattered on different planets using Spelljamming rules that actually work and make a tiny bit of sense could be a good time.
What'cha think?
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Hah! Interesting that this gets called out. We took a lot of heat for that issue back in the day, though I always thought it was pretty neat.
Really? It is one of my all-time favorite issues. I'm already waiting for the golarion zodiac to convert all the stuff Hal and the other authors created for this issue.
At the moment, I'm playing an astrologer(Wu Jen) in a homebrewed world where the DM developed his own zodiac and cannot wait to advance far enough to take some levels in the master astrologer PrC.
But maybe it's just me and my weird interests. I already used the harrow cards to perform a reading in Azeroth so this astrology thing had me hooked right away.
Creative Director
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I quite liked the issue as well; astrology is an interesting subject that often gets overlooked in RPGs, it seems. Again, we WILL be doing something with Golarion's astrology some day... but not very soon. The stars have to be right before then! :-)
As for catching flack... it wasn't really from folk being religious or anything like that at all. It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
If they said that it was too silly for real life, I would have agreed (yeah, call me small minded, but nothing more than, say, 8 light minutes away from me has any bearing on my personality or mood).
But in D&D, where stuff like elves and magic and dragons are real (well, you know what I mean), I don't see a problem.
And wimpy? *sigh* People lack perspective, they just don't see the big picture. So the position of the planets have an impact on your fate and personality.
To me, a guy who thinks stuff through, that means if I want to improve myself, or change my shape, I go and move the planets. Does the sudden change in position claim millions of life when the climate changes or the speed of the movement flings people off the planet? Who cares? I'll go from "gloomy pessimist who has a hard time making friends and is fated to an early grave, all alone" to "well-liked, outgoing people person who makes friends easily and will find the secret to immortality, eventually becoming the lover of Shelyn and the favoured plaything of Calistria". Win-win. Except for the ones who are dead. But you know what they say about running out of cake.
What was so evil about Harry Potter, again?
If you have to ask, you're already beyond redemption. Please see an inquisitor at your earliest convenience. BYOF (bring your own firewood)
The main reason I'm thinking Geography would work best for astronomy is that in my first year of Junior High, my first Geography class was about the solar system (diameter/circumference of each planet, time required to circle the sun, duration of a typical day on each planet, distance of planets from the sun or from each other, etc.)
That's not geography. Graphy, yes, Geo, no. :P
Astrothingy's not my thing. Who are those stuffy old men to decide that that these stars make up a constellation and that it's called the Great Wagon?
All I want to know, all I need to know, is that The Stars Are Right.
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I quite liked the issue as well; astrology is an interesting subject that often gets overlooked in RPGs, it seems. Again, we WILL be doing something with Golarion's astrology some day... but not very soon. The stars have to be right before then! :-)
As for catching flack... it wasn't really from folk being religious or anything like that at all. It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
So, what skills govern them then, or is it strictly information gathered from game play?
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Interesting topic! :-)
I too have often felt that astrology is a forgotten element in fantasy roleplaying games. I have seen the occasional game system or home brew campaign craft something for PC generation or for certain magic effects -- but never much on astrology published for D&D that I know of (other than Kingdoms of Kalamar for 3E which has it's own original zodiac -- but as fluff only)...
**blows some dust off of some old tomes**
Chivalry & Sorcery 3rd edition has the western zodiac used in a table to determine favoured skills for a PC. I have an original copy of C&S from the 1970s that is old and yellowed and has a section on astrology with an elaborate table showing a host of modest modifiers. Unfortunately the fine medieval font used in the text explanation is hard to follow without a magnifying glass!
Rolemaster, in Spell Law (c. 1981, 1984), has the Astrologer as a hybrid spell caster who's spell lists focus was divination, lore, power words, light and light energy attack (a kind of star magic), telepathy and precognition.
In Dragon Quest (published circa 1980) PCs determine the time of thier birth, and there are bonuses and penalties associated with day/night, equinox/solistice, and much mention about vernal/summer/autumnal/winter stars... But no zodiac specified.
I haven't seen anything in GURPS, Warhammer Fantasy, Runequest or any other fanatsy rpgs other than the ones above.
The Dragon article on astrology mentioned in the OP: anybody know the issue number? I don't remember seeing it (it is possible I didn't even buy the issue). I certainly would like to read it! :-)
-W
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I quite liked the issue as well; astrology is an interesting subject that often gets overlooked in RPGs, it seems. Again, we WILL be doing something with Golarion's astrology some day... but not very soon. The stars have to be right before then! :-)
As for catching flack... it wasn't really from folk being religious or anything like that at all. It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
My only issue with that, uh, issue was that no matter what setup you did, it was only good for one campaign world, be it Oerth, Toril, or whatever. The ideas were applicable to any setting, but the execution was kind of limited to one planet, wherever you had written it for.
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One more fatal blow to increasingly useless Knowledge: Geography! :P
Actually it isn't as bad as you might think: the most important skill for map-making is geography. Accurate maps of land and sea routes for trade are the kind of thing that kingdoms and certain guilds would probably guard jealously -- indeed they would be most picky about borders too! Just because we see general maps as meta-game knowledge, doesn't prevent a GM from tweaking a local region to suit his/her game, and thus potentially provoke the need for Knowledge (geography) rolls by travelling PCs.
Also important: forgery is now folded into Linguistics and now applies only to text -- as per the Beta rules set -- given that, it is not logical to use Linguistics to detect a forgery in the drawings of a map! It would be better to try Knowledge (geography) to compare one's knowledge with the drawings of lands, coasts and waterways, and navigational markings to figure out if there is fakery afoot.
Another example: The captain of a trading vessel probably needs Knowledege (geography) to read his charts/maps, and probably Knowledge (nature) to read the night sky to know where his vessel is in relation to his charts/maps. The stars will only give an approximation on open water without maps -- one still needs to know geography to get one's precise bearings in order to avoid hazards...
Note that the most Survival does with respect to one's location, is reveal the direction of true north. One still needs Knowledge (geography) to know where one actually is...
There are few exact rules for the knowledge skills, so we have leeway to make the skills work in the game. The specific uses on Table 5-6 in the Beta rules are not the only things Knowledge skills are good for -- there always other possible uses -- we can still use our imagination AND a bit of logic!
my 2 cents :-)
I quite liked the issue as well; astrology is an interesting subject that often gets overlooked in RPGs, it seems. Again, we WILL be doing something with Golarion's astrology some day... but not very soon. The stars have to be right before then! :-)
As for catching flack... it wasn't really from folk being religious or anything like that at all. It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
It totally fits the world in which we're playing. It's the Age of Lost Omens. If the greatest divine omens are lost to the common folk, it only follows that there would be other attempts at divining the future, or at least getting some clue or benefit from trying to know.
An Astrologer prestige class could work like the Harrower class, in some respects. It's an unsure time, to say the least, and fakirs would abound, as well as a minority of real soothsayers with at least some conditional grasp of what might come.
Way cool! I don't see it fitting Forgotten Realms...
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Interesting topic! :-)
The Dragon article on astrology mentioned in the OP: anybody know the issue number? I don't remember seeing it (it is possible I didn't even buy the issue). I certainly would like to read it! :-)
It's Dragon #340, a theme issue with not only an article about Astrology in D&D, but also the master astrologer PrC and a great article about campaign worlds where the sun and the moon play an important cultural role. And items, and spells.
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It's Dragon #340, a theme issue with not only an article about Astrology in D&D, but also the master astrologer PrC and a great article about campaign worlds where the sun and the moon play an important cultural role. And items, and spells.
Thank you! After a brief search... I found that I indeed have my own copy too!
As for catching flack... it wasn't really from folk being religious or anything like that at all. It was more along the lines of some people thinking that astrology is too boring and wimpy and silly a subject to deserve any degree of coverage in D&D. A sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
Every time Dragon got a new editor I took it as an opportunity to repitch that idea :)
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indeed its an inteersting concept, some players liek to do somethign like that to enrich their characters
and definitively learning about the stars for the knowledge already existing would be nature...
if it was a campaign more focused in the stars, it woudl merit its own skill Knowledge: Astronomy or Astrophysics... but that is something for sci-fi campaigns