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Of gods divinity and power.
In Golaron what makes a god a god? In other words what defines the Devine from the profane? Are there a variety of methods for apotheosis? Are gods immortal? Are they indestructible? Can they be in more then one place at a time? Are the gods of Golaron omniscient? Omnipotent?
When it comes to gods, I have often come across what I call the “cosmic piggy bank” system. The basic premise is that mortal belief bestows power that is collected and pooled by a devine entity. The more believers, the more powerful the god..the smaller the number of devout followers, the weaker the god. The more coins in a piggy bang the fatter and heavier it is, the fewer the number of coins the lighter and skinnier it is. If a god has no believers, he isn’t a god anymore. This provides a reason for these powerful beings to have an interest in their mortal “charges”. I believe this is the cosmic system that was used in the Forgotten Realms from first through the third edition. I don’t know about 4.0 forgotten realms.
How are things in Golaron? Does Golaron use the “cosmic piggy bank system?” something else? Or are there a variety of cosmic systems in Golaron?
I don't believe Golarion uses any universal piggy bank system. They leave it pretty broadly open to interpretation as to how worshipers influence the power of a deity.
It seems clear there are powerful gods (like Rovagug) without *tons* of worshippers, and others who became gods without any (Cayden Cailean).
That said, it seems others *did* become gods due to worship. So mixed bag it seems.
Might explain why some gods would be happy to destroy the world - kill the power source for a rival, while they are independent of it.
For all intents and purposes, true deities (everything beyond demigod) is untouchable for mortals. There might be some specific cases down the road, but nothing like that is known, and I doubt they'll do it.
Demigods can, in theory, be harmed by lesser beings. Aroden's former herald is a good example of that - she was killed by the Whispering Tyrant and raised by Geb as a lich to be his Harlot Queen.
There can even be stats for demigods - In Curse of the Crimson Throne, there are stats for Achaechek (the Red Mantis god and assassin of the gods). Doesn't mean you can easily defeat them (CR 30), but it can be done in theory.
Ther are a number of ways to become a god.
You can be born a god, you can ascend to full godhood as an already powerful outsider (Asmodeus used to be an archdevil, Lamashtu a demon lord, and Serenrae an empyreal lord).
You can be sponsored by another deity.
And there's the Test of the Starstone. If you pass that test, you become a god. It's everything but easy, though - of the thousands who must have tried over the millenia, only 3 made it (Norgorber, Cayden Cailean and Iomedae).
Finally, it is apparently possible to become a god all by yourself, but that is probably even harder than the Starstone method. Irori is said to have ascended by becoming perfect, and Nethys learned the secrets of magic, which made him god - and insane.
But simply having people worship you won't work. Razmir is still puny mortal, after all.
It seems clear there are powerful gods (like Rovagug) without *tons* of worshippers,
There might be a corellation between portfolio and power, but worshippers don't figure into it.
Rovagug doesn't need worshippers really. His portfolio is destruction, and that is a power that will always be there.
and others who became gods without any (Cayden Cailean).
As I said, he passed the Test of the Starstone, and the reward for that is godhood.
it seems others *did* become gods due to worship.
It's not as easy as that. It is said that Serenrae's ascension from archangel to goddess was due to an influx of belief/worship when others witnessed her selfless deeds, that was in a time before there were mortals around, during the time when the gods did battle against Rovagug.
Might explain why some gods would be happy to destroy the world - kill the power source for a rival, while they are independent of it.
As far as I know, there's only one god who wants to destroy the world - Rovagug. And he does that because he is destruction. It's his divine nature.
Oh no!
Don't get me started...
Must...
Not...
Reply...
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Mujaba and KaeYoss, thank you both for your replies. KaeYoss thanks, your posts have cleared things up. It appears on Golaron, there are a variety of ways for one to achieve apotheosis, and some cases where worship made a difference, and others where it does not figure in. So in short it’s a mixed bag. Thanks. This makes things interesting.
DM Blake, it sounds like you are itching to reply.
DM Blake, it sounds like you are itching to reply.
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In Golaron what makes a god a god? In other words what defines the Devine from the profane? Are there a variety of methods for apotheosis? Are gods immortal? Are they indestructible? Can they be in more then one place at a time? Are the gods of Golaron omniscient? Omnipotent?
They (well, Todd Stewart at least) specifically say in The Great Beyond that the true nature of divinity in Pathfinder and on Golarion is up for each GM to determine.
In terms of actual, codifiable statistics on godhood, your ideas are no more valid or invalid than mine or anybody else's, at least for our own games.
In Golaron what makes a god a god? In other words what defines the Devine from the profane? Are there a variety of methods for apotheosis? Are gods immortal? Are they indestructible? Can they be in more then one place at a time? Are the gods of Golaron omniscient? Omnipotent?They (well, Todd Stewart at least) specifically say in The Great Beyond that the true nature of divinity in Pathfinder and on Golarion is up for each GM to determine.
In terms of actual, codifiable statistics on godhood, your ideas are no more valid or invalid than mine or anybody else's, at least for our own games.
IIRC, outside of certain demigods like Achaekek, Paizo has stated that they won't stat up deities, so in a strictly mechanical view, the greater deities are effectively immortal, barring major plot points (re: Aroden's death). That said, Aroden did die, and there are hints that other deities perished at the hands of fellow dieties, such Curchanus.
I think it is safe to assume there is no one Omnipotent deity. Even though the greater deities are vastly powerful, most elect to work through their priesthood and followers or, more rarely, through their Heralds (CR 15 divine agents). Nethys might qualify as borderline omniscient, but s/he's not going to hold a conversation with anyone.
IIRC, outside of certain demigods like Achaekek, Paizo has stated that they won't stat up deities, so in a strictly mechanical view, the greater deities are effectively immortal, barring major plot points (re: Aroden's death).
Exactly. The gods aren't necessarily eternal, and they could kill each other (many died in the struggle against Rovagug, for example), but you won't see weeks with dozens of deities dead (unlike some other campaign settings), and you won't see stats for the deities.
Stats for deities imply that you can just kill them. Might be fiendishly hard to do, but possible in theory. That sends out the wrong kind of message.
(Plus, I always thought that the 3e stats for deities were pitiful. With a bit of powergaming and a couple levels epic, your average mortal can go there!)
I think it is safe to assume there is no one Omnipotent deity.
Well, it depends on the given value of omnipotent (and omniscient, really). There concepts humans just cannot properly understand. And religions always make a mess of it. If you go too literal, funny questions arise like: Why does God test us? He knows how it will turn out.
What if two omnipotent entities go up against each other? Each should have the power to instantly destroy the other, and to prevent the other from doing the same, after all. Nothing they can't do, by definition, including creating something more powerful than themselves (but if they're not as powerful as it gets, they're not really all-powerful, right?).
Finiteness and infinity cannot really be understood.
IIRC, outside of certain demigods like Achaekek, Paizo has stated that they won't stat up deities, so in a strictly mechanical view, the greater deities are effectively immortal, barring major plot points (re: Aroden's death). That said, Aroden did die, and there are hints that other deities perished at the hands of fellow dieties, such Curchanus.
And even Aroden was "only" an ascended mortal, not one of the original gods of old. Insofar his death is much more likely.
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So, where did I put this blasted key?
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But simply having people worship you won't work.
Probably not, but maybe it will. At least (so it stands written in "Gods & Magic") it has never been proven that it absolutely cannot happen this way (another way for saying that it's our world and we can do what we like best, I assume).
At least there seem to be other ways to become a god. Gorum is said to have developed out of the human-orc wars, and there are cases where otherworldly forces caused what seemed to be spontaneous apotheosis.
Yeah, there's that spontaneous deification. And I read that sometimes, worship can make you a god. It was in G&M or The great Beyond. So I wasn't quite right for once.
It seems, though, that it has to be actual, sincere worship. Being forced to worship someone at swordpoint won't work, or Razmir would have made it (and started a major trend).
And maybe it doesn't even always work even if the situation is right. (Or maybe it doesn't work at all and other stuff is at work here).
The Great Beyond has a sidebar on deification which is quite vague and mentions the possibility of becoming a god by mortal worship. But it does not make a clear statement, so each GM may rule this as it is convenient for him.
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So, where did I put this blasted key?
Glad you liked it.
This is the basic concept of divinity I have used for well over a decade in multiple RPGs.
I have even had some campaigns result in some characters ascending to godhood, acquiring followers, building temples, fulfilling prayers, granting spells, acquiring a domain, mastering a plane and making it their "home plane", etc.
And this concept will aslo present itself in my novel trilogy.
Look for Soulrender, the first of the trilogy, this summer.
[/shameless plug]