Wil save......NATURAL 20!!!!
Huzzah!!!!!
Hey, how long does the new guy get to blame it all on the old guy? I'm saying.....6 more months. October 2009, and all the moderates turn over on him if he's still doing it.
If it helps, I'm starting an internet campaign to have everything blamed on you instead. Including things like the extinction of the dinosaurs. Seems to me like your extensive knowledge of them makes you the most likely suspect in their sudden and unexpected deaths.
I'm just sayin'.
Also, instead of trying to roll Will saves, you should take the feat that lets you treat a failed save as an opportunity to make a silly comment or do some smvrfing. Life's more fun that way.
Heathy'd have to retrain his Toughness feat to get that feat you suggest, which loss of hp would result in the permadeath of his avatar (due to his 1 CON).
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Wil save......NATURAL 20!!!!
Huzzah!!!!!
Hey, how long does the new guy get to blame it all on the old guy? I'm saying.....6 more months. October 2009, and all the moderates turn over on him if he's still doing it.
If it helps, I'm starting an internet campaign to have everything blamed on you instead. Including things like the extinction of the dinosaurs. Seems to me like your extensive knowledge of them makes you the most likely suspect in their sudden and unexpected deaths.
I'm just sayin'.
Also, instead of trying to roll Will saves, you should take the feat that lets you treat a failed save as an opportunity to make a silly comment or do some smurfing. Life's more fun that way.
It'll never work. Bush killed the dinosaurs because they didn't fit with Genesis, and he wanted all the oil from their corpses.
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Wil save......NATURAL 20!!!!
Huzzah!!!!!
Hey, how long does the new guy get to blame it all on the old guy? I'm saying.....6 more months. October 2009, and all the moderates turn over on him if he's still doing it.
If it helps, I'm starting an internet campaign to have everything blamed on you instead. Including things like the extinction of the dinosaurs. Seems to me like your extensive knowledge of them makes you the most likely suspect in their sudden and unexpected deaths.
I'm just sayin'.
Also, instead of trying to roll Will saves, you should take the feat that lets you treat a failed save as an opportunity to make a silly comment or do some smvrfing. Life's more fun that way.
Heathy'd have to retrain his Toughness feat to get that feat you suggest, which loss of hp would result in the permadeath of his avatar (due to his 1 CON).
I had to have some kind of weakness to offset my 37 charisma.
Now if you'll excuse me, all this typing has given me arterial spurters on 3 of my remaining 4 fingers.
Anyone who is overly concerned with the fate of the pirates gunned down by the Navy Seals......False argument.
Yes, what happened is without question the best outcome, given the scenario. But gloating and posturing is a poor reflection on the victor, and does nothing but cheapen your own regard for human life in general. Enough of that and you may as well be a pirate, too.
ROFL. Are you serious?
"Might as well be a pirate, too."
Wow.
I find it amazing how good points are often ruined by ridiculous 'throw-away' statements that invalidate the author's perspective.
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Anyone who is overly concerned with the fate of the pirates gunned down by the Navy Seals......False argument.
Yes, what happened is without question the best outcome, given the scenario. But gloating and posturing is a poor reflection on the victor, and does nothing but cheapen your own regard for human life in general. Enough of that and you may as well be a pirate, too.
ROFL. Are you serious?
"Might as well be a pirate, too."
Wow.
I find it amazing how good points are often ruined by ridiculous 'throw-away' statements that invalidate the author's perspective.
I think you're missing the point. It is necessary to occasionally resort to violence to maintain peace, cops do it and it is a necessary evil to maintain the societal structure we have built. However, reveling in that violence does make someone more like the problem that had to be eliminated. I served in the Army, and, while I was fortunate to avoid combat (being an "R.E.P." has its benefits) , I've met many soldiers and Marines who did not. Most of them weren't "proud" they had to take lives, they accepted it as something they had to do to defend our way of life. The ones who got off on it? We avoided them like the plague. There was something missing in them that exists in most people, and a lot of us were put off by their callousness and the obvious pleasure they took in recounting how they "took out" someone.
This applies to most of the vets of our recent wars (WWII to present) I've met. Hardly any of them want to talk about it, the ones who seemed to love what they did either had a screw loose or were lying their asses off about their experiences.
Somalia's coastal waters ARE an ecological nightmare. No ecologist will disagree. It is true that the waters are polluted nearly entirely by foreign (non-Somali) ships. The problem with the instability in Somalia has basically meant no one has been watching their waters for years.
Big corporations cash in on that. Fishing companies pillage the waters, over-fishing as much as possible (this is illegal and unethical). They have depleted the fish populations around Somalia completely and basically robbed entire villages of their livelihood.
Also, tons of corporations and foriegn governments decided it would be swell to dump as much of their toxic waste as possible in Somlia's waters, since no one can stop them right now.
That's how the first pirates got started. Most were sons of fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers of fishermen who were literally starving to death and out of nothing more than sheer stupid and awful desperation started to take ships hostage.
Then the warlords saw that it was good thing to get into, so now the problem is out of control.
Problems are always a lot more complex than they seem, and usually EVERYONE is to blame. It is our world afterall. Borders are just there for show nowadays really. Everyone has to step up and look after each other or civilization starts to fray and you get shit like - Pirates.
Again, I hope these incidents call attention to real underlying causes of serious issues, and don't just serve as "RA RA GO AMERICA MOMENTS." We can do that when we win the Olympics every four years, cause that's why we are awesome.
Oh I hear ya, believe me, a few years ago I'd be saying the exact same thing. But after a lot of time spent traveling and talking to people who've grown up in absolute desperation, I figured out that when you have nothing at all - crime isn't really about choice, its about survival and validation of existence.Everything is a choice. They chose not to fight to improve their nation. They chose to keep playing the game the way it has been played for ages. Criminals chose their behavior. If someone chooses to go along with the crowd instead of being their own man, let them reap what they sow.
I spend seven years in prison because I chose to do wrong. I grew up dirt poor, had dick growing up, but guess what? I had a chance, I had a choice, and I chose the easy way. My fault.
I don't want to hear it. Everyone has the choice to do right, if they chose not to, whatever happens to them, so be it.
Sorry to hear you spent time incarcerated. No fun.
What I was talking about isn't just about being poor, its about being bred to a criminal life by the circumstances around you. I know LOADS of poor people who don't have dick and make good choices. I don't know a lot of smackheads whose parents were doing crack around them when they were 5 who are very well schooled in making good choices.
It's not about how much money you have, its about desperation of a loss of your sense of self. If you lose everything - your way of life, your family, your self-respect, your ability to feed yourself, etc. - chances are you'll do stupid things and hurt people. I think that's where some of these pirates come from. SOME OF...not all. A lot of them are power-mongering douchebags, exploiting the desperation of the others - but I don't think the 17 year olds are among that rank and file.
Nothing is as simple as "You have a choice." Seriously, do you think any reasoning person, not driven to the very limits of existence, actually gets into a fishing boat with a gun and tries to board a tanker? Not bloody likely. These are people pushed to the raggedy edge.
Excellent specific sources and details of what I was lazily pontificating about because I didn't have time to dig up all the info I've been absorbing about the pirate situation.
Thanks for kicking in with all this amazing specific info about the root sources for the problem. Much appreciated.
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Then the warlords saw that it was good thing to get into, so now the problem is out of control.Somalia's coastal waters ARE an ecological nightmare. No ecologist will disagree. It is true that the waters are polluted nearly entirely by foreign (non-Somali) ships. The problem with the instability in Somalia has basically meant no one has been watching their waters for years.
Big corporations cash in on that. Fishing companies pillage the waters, over-fishing as much as possible (this is illegal and unethical). They have depleted the fish populations around Somalia completely and basically robbed entire villages of their livelihood.
Also, tons of corporations and foriegn governments decided it would be swell to dump as much of their toxic waste as possible in Somlia's waters, since no one can stop them right now.
That's how the first pirates got started. Most were sons of fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers of fishermen who were literally starving to death and out of nothing more than sheer stupid and awful desperation started to take ships hostage.
Or so they claim.
Actual proof of all this is virtually non-existent - some rusting barrels washed up after the 2004 Tusnami for the toxic, and assertions by the pirates that they are really just fishermen.How much is true is far from proven.
Problems are always a lot more complex than they seem, and usually EVERYONE is to blame. It is our world afterall. Borders are just there for show nowadays really. Everyone has to step up and look after each other or civilization starts to fray and you get s*@@ like - Pirates.
Or not.
Or it is just a bunch of criminals making up excuses or adopting the excuses that others make up for them.At some point everyone has to step up, look at the specific actions, and take action to stop criminals so as to be able to look after each other.
Again, I hope these incidents call attention to real underlying causes of serious issues, and don't just serve as "RA RA GO AMERICA MOMENTS." We can do that when we win the Olympics every four years, cause that's why we are awesome.
Well do they Nick?
Or do they just serve as "BOO HISS DOWN WITH AMERICA MOMENTS?"
Well do they Nick?
Or do they just serve as "BOO HISS DOWN WITH AMERICA MOMENTS?"
I don't see how they do. I'm certainly not boo-hissing. The SEALS saved an innocent sea captain of a relief ship. Since my first post, I have done nothing but commend their bravery. I'm not sure why people (not necessarily you Sam, others in this thread) take such umbrage when I state something like: "I hope this incident calls attention to underlying problems that give rise to the kind of violence we are seeing."
Nowhere in this thread have I attacked America - in fact I boasted our indefatigable Olympic prowess.
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Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-y ou-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html
Johann Hari starts out making it clear that he intends to offer nothing but excuses and justification for piracy, and then provides one quote of a UN official used in the other two, and one quote supposedly taken from Reuters but with no context provided.
The Times article is certainly an accusation, but it contains virtually no real evidence. One instance of waste barrels washing ashore, a claim of increased illness in a warzone (I found no additional information at the UNEP website), a report from another paper on allegations by an extremist environmental group (which is what Greenpeace is), and two alleged copies of contracts show off by the European Green Party.
The al-Jazeera article contains a claim by the pirates made to justify their actions, an accusation from a UN envoy that he says he cannot elaborate on, along with an admission from another UN representative that no actual investigation was ever carried out. There is also significant cross-citation between this report and The Times article.
To call that a weak case is an understatement.
To suggest it justifies the pirates?
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I don't see how they do. I'm certainly not boo-hissing. The SEALS saved an innocent sea captain of a relief ship. Since my first post, I have done nothing but commend their bravery. I'm not sure why people (not necessarily you Sam, others in this thread) take such umbrage when I state something like: "I hope this incident calls attention to underlying problems that give rise to the kind of violence we are seeing."
Nowhere in this thread have I attacked America - in fact I boasted our indefatigable Olympic prowess.
I did not say you had Nick, I just asked if that is all it would serve as. Why do you take such umbrage at me stating that?
However, in regards to examining the underlying problems, it remains as I noted, whether they will actually be examined.
When said examination consists of statements that are completely incorrect as to who destabilized the last government of Somalia, where they came from, what their relationship to Islamists terrorists was, and who was contributing to the last government, and only gets right that said government was destabilized, or when cross-cited articles of accusations from yet other newspapers, agenda-driven political groups, UN officials who cannot produce their evidence, and other UN officials who must confess to not having actual evidence, then basic intellectual integrity must acknowledge that there is a very serious shortfall on the part of whoever is conducting those aspects of the examination, and that perhaps some prefer not to even consider the underlying problems at all, and merely use the situation to advance a particular political agenda.
some prefer not to even consider the underlying problems at all, and merely use the situation to advance a particular political agenda.
Pot this is kettle.... ;-)
Or do you take up piracy and can make up to $10k in a single hijacking?
And not everyone in Somalia agrees with the pirates. They see it as only making things worse on themselves in the long run.
I don't condone the acts of piracy, but I understand why they are doing it.
Without understanding and trying to rectify the underlying causes of piracy (no central government, no real job prospects, militias seizing and controlling the flow of aid, illegal dumping of waste and poaching) we can kill as many pirates as we can, but in the end, there will still be pirates.
You are right here. If we continue to make it profitable for piracy, people will still be pirates. That is why we should keep killing them and not allowing them to take hostages.
No hostages + being killed = no money + being dead = no incentive to be pirates.They can then get motivated to get real jobs, you know like the Afghanis, and grow poppie (sp?).
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Hey Paris, how is the Gator doing? I was on there from 96-01. Are the Echo Whiskeys/CTTs still part of Combat Systems or did they go back to Ops?
Things on the "Golden Gator" are going well. As you can probably guess, I can't say anything about it, really.
To answer your question, the CTTs work for Ops, now. And that's just fine with me, because it leaves me to deal with all the other comms, computer and combat systems gear.
I'm just now checking back with this thread and, in my current position, I shouldn't comment on things.
I will say that I should not have made the comments I did about the t-shirts. I got wrapped up in the excitement of finally being able to do something, which you can probably guess is a natural desire for active duty military folks. When faced with a problem, one tends to want to use the tools one has on hand.
My colleagues and I have been deployed over here for a few months, already, and were beginning to feel rather useless at times. Regardless, I should not have allowed myself to be overcome by the excitement of the moment in that way.
I am proud of my ship and shipmates for their actions in helping Captain Phillips, and stand by the actions taken by the personnel on USS BAINBRIDGE, but I apologize for the crassness of my t-shirt comments.
Best wishes to all,
Paris
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There are far more articles showing that their claims of dumping and poaching are in fact true. And most of the sources are from european papers. Those sources I listed are just the first ones, I didn't want to spend the rest of my post doing the copy/paste thing.
There were pirates in Somalia prior to the dumping and the poaching, but their attacks were almost miniscule in comparison to today. (Something like one attack a month if at that.) Whereas, after the dumping and poaching began in the late '90's, piracy began to take off. I think they're up to 80 attacks this year alone.
Actually, if you check, one of those UN people states directly that the piracy began in 1991, before the alleged dumping overfishing. So you have a bit of a conflict with that assertion.
Likewise there are more than enough reports and commentary that make it clear the surge in piracy is due to the lack of effort to punish the pirates and control the situation making it actively profitable setting up a very viable alternative scenario to explain the growth of the piracy.As for the sources, whether they are in European papers or not is irrelevant. The problem is they rely on mutual cross-referencing. Just because ten, or ten thousand, papers report the same four or five assertions, all without any actual proof in court, which is to be expected given the illegal nature of the activities, does not prove the assertions as fact. At best there is evidence that perhaps four companies engaged in some illegal dumping at some time, and that one time decaying containers were washed ashore by a tsunami. Beyond that there is no proof of massive overfishing causing a loss of jobs, and no proof of widespread ecological damage, which, as noted, would make fishing suicidal in the first place.
To say that the situation in Somali is chaotic is an understatement. Reports from various sources say that their are some pirates groups that have aligned themselves with the militias, whereas other pirate groups have had several clashes with the militias.
Which means asserting as an absolute that the piracy is caused by both foreign overfishing and ecological damage from illegal dumping is pretty impossible as well.
Someone else said that they have choices. Not really. Do you try to live as a law abiding citizen and take care of your family on $600 do a year? Or do you join the militias and make about $3500 a year? Or do you take up piracy and can make up to $10k in a single hijacking?
You make the choice that is moral.
Or are Somalis somehow incapable of understanding and making moral choices?And not everyone in Somalia agrees with the pirates. They see it as only making things worse on themselves in the long run.
I don't condone the acts of piracy, but I understand why they are doing it.
Without understanding and trying to rectify the underlying causes of piracy (no central government, no real job prospects, militias seizing and controlling the flow of aid, illegal dumping of waste and poaching) we can kill as many pirates as we can, but in the end, there will still be pirates.
People have tried to resolve the central government issue. However too many people "understand" when Somalis "choose" to join the militias to make more money.
The central government wants to create real job prospects, but too many people "understand" when Somalis "choose" to become pirates.People want to stop the militias seizing aid shipments, but too many people "understand" when Somalis "choose" to support Islamist terrorists and clan warlords asserting their "rights" to self-determination to kidnap and kill aid workers and steal the shipments.
Perhaps the problem is too much "understanding" and not enough rectifying.
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You are right here. If we continue to make it profitable for piracy, people will still be pirates. That is why we should keep killing them and not allowing them to take hostages.
No hostages + being killed = no money + being dead = no incentive to be pirates.
They can then get motivated to get real jobs, you know like the Afghanis, and grow poppie (sp?).
Actually, no.
The new Islamist groups have outlawed using khat (the local recreational drug of choice), so that would just get them executed.Maybe they could default to war with Ethiopia over the Ogaden again, or exporting slaves to Saudi Arabia, two ancient traditions of the area.
You are right here. If we continue to make it profitable for piracy, people will still be pirates. That is why we should keep killing them and not allowing them to take hostages.
No hostages + being killed = no money + being dead = no incentive to be pirates.
They can then get motivated to get real jobs, you know like the Afghanis, and grow poppie (sp?).Actually, no.
The new Islamist groups have outlawed using khat (the local recreational drug of choice), so that would just get them executed.
Maybe they could default to war with Ethiopia over the Ogaden again, or exporting slaves to Saudi Arabia, two ancient traditions of the area.
Who said anything about using? I said grow. They can always sell it to those immoral westerners.
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Who said anything about using? I said grow. They can always sell it to those immoral westerners.
The thing is, khat is pretty much a regional vice, so at best they could export it to other parts of the Horn of Africa or the Arabian Peninsula. (Apparently Islamic authorities do not oppose it.) Indeed it seems to be a particular problem in Yemen. (And you thought tobacco production was bad!)
Yes, what happened is without question the best outcome, given the scenario. But gloating and posturing is a poor reflection on the victor, and does nothing but cheapen your own regard for human life in general.
ROFL. Are you serious?
Dead serious.
It is necessary to occasionally resort to violence to maintain peace, cops do it and it is a necessary evil to maintain the societal structure we have built. However, reveling in that violence does make someone more like the problem that had to be eliminated. I served in the Army, and, while I was fortunate to avoid combat (being an "R.E.P." has its benefits), I've met many soldiers and Marines who did not. Most of them weren't "proud" they had to take lives, they accepted it as something they had to do to defend our way of life. The ones who got off on it? We avoided them like the plague. This applies to most of the vets of our recent wars (WWII to present) I've met. Hardly any of them want to talk about it, the ones who seemed to love what they did either had a screw loose or were lying their asses off about their experiences.
Derek, thank you for pointing this out. We had a "damaged" guy in our squad -- seemed like an ideal soldier: disciplined, competent, quiet -- except his only outlet for pleasure involved his M-16. I could never trust him too far, lest there be a "training accident." This cut way down on unit morale and cohesiveness, and by extension, effectiveness. Taken as a whole, he was more of a danger to the unit than an asset, even though I know of no confirmed allied fatalities for which he's responsible.
My Vietnam-era Special Forces friends, both American and Cambodian, freely discuss their postwar difficulties, and never their "score." They are warriors, not butchers. I have a very good friend who looks like an aged hippie; if he finds a bee in the house, he catches it and releases it into his flower garden. He's a devoted father, loyal friend, and patriotic American. From what I've heard from others, he's also personally responsible for the deaths of far more people than are on these boards. From what I can intuit, his creed seems to be "Only confirmed enemies, only if there is absolutely no other way, and even then think twice. And try like hell to live with yourself afterwards." When he sees military action on the news, he cries, rather than gloats.
I myself am not a vegetarian because I feel sorry for the plants I eat, not just the animals. I'd shoot a deer and eat it, but you'll never find me mounting a stuffed bear's head on the wall and brag about having killed the poor animal. Does this make me a sissy pacifist? You decide, but I've been threatened with loaded weapons and not backed down.
Any combat veterans on the boards, please weigh in.
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No. Somalis are making the moral choice. They really only have two choices, watch their families starve and do nothing. Or they can stand up and do something about it. They've chosen to do something about it.
I thought you said you do not condone piracy?
By calling it the moral choice that is precisely what you are doing.Worse, you are empowering them to continue to select it.
We see it as the wrong decision, but we're sitting here in our air conditioned houses, with our ability to go to work and not worry about getting shot. If things get rough, we lose our job we have unemployment insurance that will help us out until we find another job. They don't have that. Strip everything we have away until we're in their shoes, and I'll guarantee you that a lot of people would be doing the same.
No, we see it as immoral because it is.
Rather than empower the same morality you choose to ignore that standing up and doing something about it can include taking those same weapons they are using to commit piracy and use them against the clan militias and Islamist terrorists that are continually destabilizing the governments they attempt to build and stealing the aid other nations attempt to provide. They can choose self-defense, but you have declared, from wherever it is you are sitting, that only be engaging in the crime of piracy, which is far from the joyful, happy splendor of Johnny Depp or the gleeful, satirical choruses of the Pirates of Penzance, and much more the bloody savagery of the Barbary Pirates, taking prisoners, enslaving those who cannot be ransomed, and killing those who get in the way.With the problems they are facing, that's your only solution? Genocide.
Pirates are not a racial, religious, or cultural group.
They are a criminal organization.One no more speaks of committing genocide against pirates than one speaks of committing genocide against the Mafia, the Medellin Cartel, the Triads, the Yakuza, the Crips and Bloods, or any other such group.
Indeed the very use of the term in such a context is perverse and degrading to actual victims of genocide.
No. Somalis are making the moral choice. They really only have two choices, watch their families starve and do nothing. Or they can stand up and do something about it. They've chosen to do something about it.
For every problem, there is a simple answer.
It is wrong, but it is simple.
This is not a situation where the Somali villagers have only two choices. They have many other options besides piracy or starvation. Perhaps their actions were once justified or even noble, as they formed militia groups to defend their livelihoods from illegal fishing fleets and toxic wastes.
They have left that far behind. They no longer depend on fishing for survival but instead choose to prey on whoever crosses their path. This is not something that was forced upon them: This situation is what they chose to accept.
Strip everything we have away until we're in their shoes, and I'll guarantee you that a lot of people would be doing the same.
In the first place, that has nothing to do with the immorality of their actions. If one lives in a land of barbarians, does it therefore follow that one must become a barbarian?
In the second place, your argument is fallacious. Predatory behavior is by no means universal, even in dire circumstances. Criminal behavior is more common in times of hardship, but for every example of predatory behavior you could name, I can show one of desperate people choosing a more noble path.
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"Rear Echelon Pogue", I was a mechanic in the Division Supply Command unit. Combat units kind of make fun of us, until they need their Hummers fixed, or their generators, or they need to eat, then, all of the sudden, we're useful or something...
Not all of us felt that way. We couldn't get s&*t done without you guys so thank you for keeping us going.
I did not say you had Nick, I just asked if that is all it would serve as. Why do you take such umbrage at me stating that?
Seemed directed at me since you named me in the sentence prior. I haven't seen much boo-hissing of the SEALS actions at all by ANYONE on this thread. Just boo-hissing of our foreign policies and how they may contribute (not cause) to the underlying problems.
No worries though, if you weren't accusing me of boo-hissing America then all is forgiven. I love America more than most people if only because after spending a considerable amount of time out of the country I can evaluate our great country with a deal of clarity.
The problem is pretend-patriots who want to toot our horn and do nothing to maintain our legacy of attention to positive change in the world. Blaming Somalia for their own problems certainly smacks of balking at an opportunity to help out. Instead these pretend-patriots wanna kick back and party when our military succeeds, but don't want to actualize any positive impact on the world at large. They make me sick.
I appreciate people who are open to looking at many perspectives to a problem and engaging with it on many levels instead of shutting down other people's thoughts on a problem by stonewalling their contributions to the discussion.
But I don't take umbrage...just shake my head...
Here's a thought (and a challenge for you Sam):
If you were these "pirates" (and I am talking about the villagers who've lost their livelihood not the warlords who are getting in on the game lately) - What would you do?
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Seemed directed at me since you named me in the sentence prior. I haven't seen much boo-hissing of the SEALS actions at all by ANYONE on this thread. Just boo-hissing of our foreign policies and how they may contribute (not cause) to the underlying problems.
Doesn't boo-hissing the foreign policies count?
Particularly when an examination of the facts shows they are have not contributed to the underlying problems at all?Hmmm . . .
The problem is pretend-patriots who want to toot our horn and do nothing to maintain our legacy of attention to positive change in the world. Blaming Somalia for their own problems certainly smacks of balking at an opportunity to help out. Instead these pretend-patriots wanna kick back and party when our military succeeds, but don't want to actualize any positive impact on the world at large. They make me sick.
Okay, now I am going to have to call you on this Nick.
What legacy of the U.S. in Somalia are you referring?Even assuming the worst of those reports are true, the U.S. has not been named as being involved in either the dumping or overfishing, so neither of those can be pinned on the U.S.
As for involvement in Somalia, the U.S. was heavily involved in sending aid, and has tried to support the legitimate government against usurpers ever since the trouble began in 1991.
As for involvement in the region, if we need to delve into that, it happens that the U.S. supported Somalia in the Ogaden War against Ethiopia. So what exactly has the U.S. done in and around Somalia that is so horrible to Somalis?
I appreciate people who are open to looking at many perspectives to a problem and engaging with it on many levels instead of shutting down other people's thoughts on a problem by stonewalling their contributions to the discussion.
And what perspectives are those Nick?
You have just indicted the U.S. for actions that are the fault of Europeans, and for harming politically when all they have done is help. Being open is one thing, but not to false perspectives.But I don't take umbrage...just shake my head...
As do I when I see perspectives based on suspicious or overtly flawed information asserted as critical to a deeper understanding of a situation.
Here's a thought (and a challenge for you Sam):
If you were these "pirates" (and I am talking about the villagers who've lost their livelihood not the warlords who are getting in on the game lately) - What would you do?
Well then you mean people who have lost their livelihood and not pirates, as I would not choose to become a pirate in the first place. Instead I would work against the social and economic decay, fighting back against the warlords, Islamists, and pirates, and doing what I could to support a decent government, for my area, if not for the entire country.
If for some reason I was a pirate I would either be able to accept the lack of morality for some reason, or it would be a "tactic" to use against disruptive forces, attacking them by sea, and not raiding ships trying to bring desperately needed aid to my fellow Somalis.
But what about you Nick, are you up to your own challenge? How would you go about your pirating?
Pot this is kettle.... ;-)Since you confess your culpability . . .
And you do not deny yours.....
Doesn't boo-hissing the foreign policies count?
Particularly when an examination of the facts shows they are have not contributed to the underlying problems at all?
Hmmm . . .
So from your perspective if it isn't the Right criticising the policy then its "Un American". Are you saying Sam that Americans shouldn't have the right to disagree with their government.
Okay, now I am going to have to call you on this Nick.
What legacy of the U.S. in Somalia are you referring?
Even assuming the worst of those reports are true, the U.S. has not been named as being involved in either the dumping or overfishing, so neither of those can be pinned on the U.S.
So as a member of the security council and the leading power of the world the US can shirk its responsibility. It also gives the US the moral high ground to nail the Europeans for their irresponsibility.
As for involvement in Somalia, the U.S. was heavily involved in sending aid, and has tried to support the legitimate government against usurpers ever since the trouble began in 1991.
As for involvement in the region, if we need to delve into that, it happens that the U.S. supported Somalia in the Ogaden War against Ethiopia. So what exactly has the U.S. done in and around Somalia that is so horrible to Somalis?
Gee when hurricane Katrina hit the US despite the fact that you have the richest country in the world we sent aid and helped out the hurricane wasn't our fault but helping was the right thing to do.
When the tsunami hit South East Asia we offered help, the tsunami was nobodies fault but as a country Australia believes in helping out as much as possible.
I didn't know about the destruction of the Somali fishing grounds but it sounds as if that is the source of the problem. Well then first thing we need to do is address the problem rather than the symptoms.
And what perspectives are those Nick?
You have just indicted the U.S. for actions that are the fault of Europeans, and for harming...
Great stonewalling you have no answers.....
With the problems they are facing, that's your only solution? Genocide.That is why we should keep killing them and not allowing them to take hostages.
No hostages + being killed = no money + being dead = no incentive to be pirates.
Genocide?
genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
Maybe, are the pirates considered a "culural group"?
I do believe that we should allow "natural consequences" to making bad choices. To continue "protecting" people from their bad choices just leads to them continuing to make bad choices. Take their weapons and then letting them go with a slap on the wrist and a "naughty! naughty!" shake of a finger, just so they can get back to their base and rearm and do it again, isn't motivating them to stop making those choices.
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So from your perspective if it isn't the Right criticising the policy then its "Un American". Are you saying Sam that Americans shouldn't have the right to disagree with their government.
No, from my perspective criticizing policies because they are performed by the American government when you demand those policies be enacted is at the least hypocritical, and depending on context may well be an expression of anti-American bias.
So as a member of the security council and the leading power of the world the US can shirk its responsibility. It also gives the US the moral high ground to nail the Europeans for their irresponsibility.
Case in point . . .
Yes, the U.S. is a member of the security council. And as a member has called for action on numerous issues. However, as you should well know, one nation, even a permanent member, cannot force the security council to undertake a specific course of action. Nor can the U.S. by an expression of support for a particular policy force the Europeans to back it. (Indeed we even wind up with the French telling Obama where he can stick his advice on the accession of Turkey to the EU.)
In such a case the only remaining option is to act unilaterally. Given the reactions to the U.S. acting unilaterally, that is obviously not an option.
How then to interpret criticism of the U.S. in such a situation? You will damn the U.S. if they act and you will damn them if they do not act because of a lack of consensus with other governments.
Gee when hurricane Katrina hit the US despite the fact that you have the richest country in the world we sent aid and helped out the hurricane wasn't our fault but helping was the right thing to do.
Which means the U.S. did not help in Somalia?
Or does that mean Australia has already solved the problems of Somalia?When the tsunami hit South East Asia we offered help, the tsunami was nobodies fault but as a country Australia believes in helping out as much as possible.
Again, does that mean the U.S. did not help after the tsunami?
Indeed, the U.S. did send help, a considerable amount of help, including an aircraft carrier possessing a reactor capable of providing power for a large area. Of course it was an aircraft carrier, and so nobody cared about providing energy, it was all about "only" sending a military vessel.I didn't know about the destruction of the Somali fishing grounds but it sounds as if that is the source of the problem. Well then first thing we need to do is address the problem rather than the symptoms.
So will Australia be sending warships to stop, search, and seize European ships engaged in illegal dumping or fishing in the territorial and economic zone of Somalia?
Truly, I do await word of the outcome of such seizures.Great stonewalling you have no answers.....
I gave answers. Very direct ones.
What I did not give was a list of the atrocities a "proper" pirate should commit.Just what answer to that "test" have you provided?
Seemed directed at me since you named me in the sentence prior. I haven't seen much boo-hissing of the SEALS actions at all by ANYONE on this thread. Just boo-hissing of our foreign policies and how they may contribute (not cause) to the underlying problems.Doesn't boo-hissing the foreign policies count?
Particularly when an examination of the facts shows they are have not contributed to the underlying problems at all?
Hmmm . . .
First of all, I never boo-hissed those policies. I don't know where you are getting this from. Read my posts.
Second, when you first made the maybe it will only serve as a BOO-HISS AMERICA moment both you and I were referring to the specific incident of the hostage situation and rescue mission undertaken by the SEALS. My point was that this SPECIFIC INCIDENT would hopefully call attention to the serious underlying problems of several incidents like this in the past few years. Not once did I indict America. I don't know where you are getting that from. I never said America was responsible for either the toxic waste or the over-fishing. Read my posts instead of reacting to perceived attacks on our mutual country.
The problem is pretend-patriots who want to toot our horn and do nothing to maintain our legacy of attention to positive change in the world. Blaming Somalia for their own problems certainly smacks of balking at an opportunity to help out. Instead these pretend-patriots wanna kick back and party when our military succeeds, but don't want to actualize any positive impact on the world at large. They make me sick.Okay, now I am going to have to call you on this Nick.
What legacy of the U.S. in Somalia are you referring?
Even assuming the worst of those reports are true, the U.S. has not been named as being involved in either the dumping or overfishing, so neither of those can be pinned on the U.S.
As for involvement in Somalia, the U.S. was heavily involved in sending aid, and has tried to support the legitimate government against usurpers ever since the trouble began in 1991.
As for involvement in the region, if we need to delve into that, it happens that the U.S. supported Somalia in the Ogaden War against Ethiopia. So what exactly has the U.S. done in and around Somalia that is so horrible to Somalis?
The legacy I was referring to was a positive one. You seek criticism where none exists, Sam. I wasn't naming America as a contributor to the toxic waste or over fishing. I was referring to our legacy as a force of good and positive change in the world. We have had a good deal of positive impact over the last 100 years (even if we have negative impacts as well). My point was this - why miss a chance to step up and help a people and nation who are floundering and starving to death. I don't know why you think I am attacking America, it's really confusing to me how you drew that from what I wrote.
I appreciate people who are open to looking at many perspectives to a problem and engaging with it on many levels instead of shutting down other people's thoughts on a problem by stonewalling their contributions to the discussion.And what perspectives are those Nick?
You have just indicted the U.S. for actions that are the fault of Europeans, and for harming...
No, I didn't. Re-read what I actually wrote instead of fishing for a fight.
The problem with threads like these is no high-minded thoughtful debate ever occurs. They devolve into "YOU WRONG" "ME RIGHT". So much so, that you can't even see when I am agreeing with you.
This is exactly what I was talking about when it comes to stonewalling. That's what you do Sam. I don't know why, because I would enjoy a lively and interesting debate on the topic instead of a lot of "he said, she said."
<threadjack>Sinister Adventures update please</threadjack>Here's a thought (and a challenge for you Sam):
If you were these "pirates" (and I am talking about the villagers who've lost their livelihood not the warlords who are getting in on the game lately) - What would you do?
HA! We start our new term next week, so not much will get done until next weekend sadly, but I will be cranking then! Still got statblockery to tackle and about 30% of the text to refine. If you haven't checked the Site's shoutbox recently have a look there as well, I've been chiming in about the progress with the MONSTROSITY that is the Razor Coast manuscript.