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My group and I recently had a discussion at our last game about numerous things as they were back in medieval times, when D&D is assumed to take place around. It started when I was giving some examples of gambling games in D&D (just for fun) from the Second Darkness books, and one player thought the odds were pretty unfair. The game in question was Bounder, and when I mentioned the house edge, he was amazed that anyone would play this game.
I took the defense that, at least in this period, knowing the house edge or even really being able to calculate it was a rarity, that most went to play and, in the end, lose their money (though the latter bit was not intended). He took the defense that people back then were just as smart as we are know, and even if the technological levels were different, mathematicians and such would still exist, decry the odds at these games of chance, and people would not go.
We got onto multiple tangents, like how science really never developed in a fantasy world because of magic, or my belief that people in Medieval times were not as smart as we are now, etc.
Anyhow, I am looking for input on the subject. Preferably historical articles or other good 'evidence', any links to reliable places would help. Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) less intelligent than now? If Bounder existed back then, would there be people to calculate the odds and decry it, or would it thrive? The fact that it also exists in a CN city may mean something, I'm not sure. :)
Any and all facts are helpful!
Anyhow, I am looking for input on the subject. Preferably historical articles or other good 'evidence', any links to reliable places would help. Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) dumber than now?
I think it's a fallacy to believe that our ancestors where somehow less mentally capable than we are now. The only thing that would make us "smarter" is access to education, which many prior generations did not have. Humanity has always the power of observation, being able to deduct and reason from observable effects. Even if Joe McFarmer went into the Golden Goblin a couple times a week and saw that the house won Bounder more often than not, there's a chance that he would say no. No need for higher math, just observation.
Of course, Joe McFarmer might be the kind of guy that might take those odds. Maybe old Bess, his prize cow, just died, and the crop ain't been too good this year, and he needs the money for a new milk cow and better seed.
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In regards to base intelligence, the Flynn Effect was the first thing referred to me. Though I am most interested when statisticians and probability theorists first started popping up, as that is when a game like "Bounder" might get changed or shut down when they started spreading the word about its bad odds.
Anyhow, I am looking for input on the subject. Preferably historical articles or other good 'evidence', any links to reliable places would help. Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) dumber than now? If Bounder existed back then, would there be people to calculate the odds and decry it, or would it thrive? The fact that it also exists in a CN city may mean something, I'm not sure. :)
Any and all facts are helpful!
I don't think most people would be able to do the advanced math to figure the odds and decry it as folks might today, but basic mathematics, and as Lilith said, observation that the house seems to win most of the time, would make some people back away.
The trick in figuring out what folks knew "back when" is seeing what they could do and did do versus our modern world with all our "fancy book larnin'" :) There was a test roaming about not long ago that showed what an eight grade education 100 years ago meant ... some of the questions they were expected to be able to do, in their heads!, were simply amazing.
So, no, I don't beleive folks were "dumber" ... it was more a matter of what was commonly known, and what they needed to know to do their jobs. But statisticians as we have today, to figure odds and such, that I don't see happening :)
In the end, you'll have to decide. Too many things influence it:
That's the big one, I think. Whether there's a gradual increase in intelligence or not (in our world, there probably is, because we evolved from a much dumber creature to what we are - but there's always the question of how dramagic the increase is. Will you see a difference in raw intelligence after 100 years? 1000?), the biggest brain won't help you if it isn't properly trained.
Surely some things, like medicine, will not be as far advanced as they could, since magic makes a much better job at it. Won't help those without the money to pay for spellcasters' service, but on the other side, a lot of that scientific advancement relies on research, and research relies on money, and... well, will you pay the guy who says he can find a cure for warts in a year, or will you pay the cleric who is done in 10 seconds?
Not everything can be replaced with magic, though.
If so, does that mean people in those fantasy worlds are dumber than us?
I think that if there is a gradual increase, those fantasy humans are smarter than us. How long has human civilisation existed in our world? I think it's something like 6000 years.
On Golarion, it's significantly more than 10000 years.
They got the head start.
Golarion (and many other D&D worlds) sure don't care too much about medieval. Otherwise, women would probably have no rights and arcane magic would be considered heresy.
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So to get into more specific questions...
1. In Golarion, is a game like Bounder popular? Successful? If so, why? Do people not realize how bad the odds are, or do they just not care?
2. Do statisticians, mathematicians, and the like exist in Golarion? Are there there more or less of them then would have existed on Earth around the medieval period? Or whatever time period would be the equivalent?
3. How has science progressed in Golarion? The point about magic being available and science being stunted is the greatest factor in a lack of science, but what has progressed? Obviously math and the like exist, but how far? Basic arithmetic? Calculus?
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4. What kind of learning facilities are in Golarion? What do the schools teach? Are there mostly schools for young children, but no real "high school" equivalent? Are the higher-end colleges solely magic-based, or are there colleges for other subjects? How common are they? How much of the population has an education from a school, and how high do they usually go?
Looking at what people like the egyptians and romans did, I have no doubts that intelligence hasn't risen over time (at least not in the last two thousand years...100,000 years? Yes, it probably has).
I'm also confident that a game with very bad house odds would get a bad reputation and at the very least suffer from people not wanting to play it.
So your friend's argument is that no one would ever make a wager where the odds were stacked against them? Clearly he's unaware of Las Vegas, state lotteries, and sports betting.
Let's hear it for Hellenistic engineering. A thousands years later and the biggest and most influential invention in 1000 AD Britain was the steel plow. Seems not all knowledge carries forward linearly throughout history.
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A lack of formal education does not denote stupidity, my father for example only went as far as 4th grade but the man could do just about any math in his head faster than I could figure it with a calculator.
As for the lack of science "back when" most of your sciences were created in those ages...if you ask my opinion people today are less intellegent today than they were back then.We have become to relient on our tools (calculators,spell check,etc.). The abacus could do advanced calculus and math in the right hands of very learned men of the times.
And for the hy would anybody play a game they can't win...just to play and pass the time would be one guess.
Looking at what people like the egyptians and romans did, I have no doubts that intelligence hasn't risen over time (at least not in the last two thousand years...100,000 years? Yes, it probably has).
I'm also confident that a game with very bad house odds would get a bad reputation and at the very least suffer from people not wanting to play it.
Following this and what Lilith said earlier, people in historical times are probably as smart as us (+/- nutrition and related issues). Many people discount how efficient empirical learning is. For example, many people (including several science professors I had) thought (or still think) that the reason that glass in medieval church windows is thicker at the bottom is because the glass must have flowed. Whereas, a medieval church builder would notice quickly that when he took a slab of glass that was thicker on one end tended to break when he put the thick part on top. 1000 years later you don't see most of the failures.
However, get-rich-quick schemes still grab many people whether they are some "system" in Vegas, investing with Bernie Madoff, or purchasing lottery tickets. I don't think there will be any lack of people to play games. However, should you force your players to make intelligence or wisdom checks to avoid losing all their money before they can spend it on the new magic item they really wanted.
Remember, that they did not have "teh internets."
Of course, that would be a demonstration that intelligence has actually fallen ...
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The big mega-million lotteries seem to be doing fine even though most people understand that the chances of winning are just about nil. People tend to want to make their dollar (gold piece) grow without the hassle of working for it. I drop $2 a week on the BIG LOTTO game. I know that my chances of winning are not there at all, but I still do it because of hope. Hope for an easy return on my money. The truth is most people will drop a couple bucks a week for their entire life and never make a penny. But we really want to. And our magical numbers will give us the edge!
;P
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Then, there are people who actually think they are skilled gamblers. I've met skilled gambler lottery players.
I had somebody ask me when I went to Florida, to buy a certain set of numbers for them.....I refused, then explained to them that, if I theoretically forgot for some reason to play the numbers, or lost the ticket, and somehow, those numbers happened to win, that they would be of the opinion that I owed them millions of dollars that I didn't owe them, and therefore there's actually nothing in it for me and in fact there's a nebulous cloud of bleakness potentially hanging over my head.
They kinda laughed my neurotic explanation off, but had to agree that it made perfect sense.
Sometimes I feel trapped inside my gigantic brain. I reveal things that others don't see. It makes them sad, but they understand why I'm the way I am.
I think it's good for them.
People in D&D are smarter than modern people. The human maximum is supposed to be 25 intelligence in golarion. 18 max, plus 2 for human, plus five stat boosts by level. There are magic items available that give further boosts. Basically, most adventuring wizards make Bertrand Russel look like a peasant farmer. There is no real way to square the reality of the game with our own terrestrial reality.
The only reason the Golarians don't have particle accelerators and a GUTOE that reconciles quantum weirdness with gravity?
The gods mess them around, and won't let them.
The economy of a D&D world is also ludicrous. In order to enjoy the game, just think of a pat rationalisation that allows you to continue suspension of disbelief.
I don't see why statisticians can't exist in the fantasy world. I would happily allow that they do. They just tend to gravitate toward the universities and magical colleges where their intelligence can get them rewarding careers making wands and bracers for a few tons of gold a year.
Of course, there could well be a tome penned by an unrepentant great wyrm gold dragon gambler with an intelligence of 36, which outlines the entire science of statistics and tries to calculate the odds in every casino in the city of brass, and which would appear to the modern statistician as if it were from the 23rd century.
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I don't think one can really invoke the Flynn effect here.
IQ testing is only slightly more than a century old, and that was a century during which education, nutrition, and technology-in-people's-lives all increased. The have been times in the past when those were in decline. We simply do not have the data to extrapolate very far into the past or the future.
For example, the Egyptian Moscow papyrus (1820 BCE) attests the use of basic integral calculus to find the volumes of complicated shapes. By the time of Archimedes (287-212BCE), and certainly by the time of the Romans, integral calculus was understood to the level of your average highschool calculus student, if not in the full rigor that mathematicans define it today.
Of course, huge amounts of that knowledge was lost (at least in Europe), during the Middle Ages. But, and this is the interesting part, it wasn't lost everywhere. In fact, around 1000 CE, the Islamic mathematician Ibn al-Haytham was devloping a more accurate numerical integration technique. In the 11th and 12th centuries CE, Indian and Persian mathematicians were discovering the basics of differential calculus.
To summarize:
- We have evidence that IQ scores have been increasing. We don't know why, nor do we know if that trend extends beyond the current century. It could be because of better education and nutrition as the century progressed. Or it could be because IQ tests measure skills that have been taught more in schools since the tests were created. Who knows?
- We have significant historical evidence that *knowledge* both increases and decreases over time, and is not uniformly distributed geographically. It's quite possible for a branch of civilization to forget knowledge it once had. It's also quite possible for one reqion to be in an intellectual "boom" while others are stagnating.
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Addressing the original point:
Someone has to understand (at least the basics of) probability, or else nobody would found a casino!
Think about it. Unless you know that the house always wins, then starting a casino (as opposed to a bar where players can gamble with each other) is a pointless undertaking. And knowing that the house always wins implies at least a rudimentary understanding of the odds of the games being played.
A historical backup: probability and statistics both date from the mid 17th century CE. Roullette, typically considered the oldest house-edge casino game, wasn't created until a century later. Prior to this, most gambling took the form of wagers against an opponent (i.e. who would roll higher on the dice). Pre-casino gambling houses depended a percentage excise rather than a house edge (or just by selling other goods/services to the gamblers) for income.
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The Flynn Effect has more to do with the rise in the Percentage of Educated Population though. A 1200AD medieval civilization with compulsory Free education for all children between the age of 12-18 would have been a nuclear power by 1526AD.
Intelligence combined with Magic gets you Blacklore.
Blacklore: Magic of such complexity as to be comparable to advanced technology.
A Wizard with four iron golems, a giant hampster wheel, and a huge ship gets a vessel that doesnt need sails and is driven through the water by a propeller or paddle-wheel. Thats a Trans-Altantic class passenger/cargo ship. Call it "The Bernouli" and you have an 1700's Eberon civilization.
An Australian Doctor doing work in Mongolia said that Potassium in your Salt from birth is supposed to improve your intelligence so a major effect in technological though would be health from birth.
Ultimately Poverty & Lack of Education undermines the intellectual economy of a state/civilization.
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Addressing the original point:
Someone has to understand (at least the basics of) probability, or else nobody would found a casino!
Think about it. Unless you know that the house always wins, then starting a casino (as opposed to a bar where players can gamble with each other) is a pointless undertaking. And knowing that the house always wins implies at least a rudimentary understanding of the odds of the games being played.
A historical backup: probability and statistics both date from the mid 17th century CE. Roullette, typically considered the oldest house-edge casino game, wasn't created until a century later. Prior to this, most gambling took the form of wagers against an opponent (i.e. who would roll higher on the dice). Pre-casino gambling houses depended a percentage excise rather than a house edge (or just by selling other goods/services to the gamblers) for income.
Considering the Romans had dice Games the concept of Chance was likely looked at by repeated individuals. But not necessariliy written down. Libraries get burned to the ground and the Churches sat on "Dangerous Books" so even when Knowledge is achieved it is not necessarily available.
The roulette wheel evolved from a spinning Wagon wheel with a target. YOu were suppoed to throw an object/fire an arrow at the tatget as it moved on the wheel.|
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Anyhow, I am looking for input on the subject. Preferably historical articles or other good 'evidence', any links to reliable places would help. Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) dumber than now?I think it's a fallacy to believe that our ancestors where somehow less mentally capable than we are now. The only thing that would make us "smarter" is access to education, which many prior generations did not have. Humanity has always the power of observation, being able to deduct and reason from observable effects. Even if Joe McFarmer went into the Golden Goblin a couple times a week and saw that the house won Bounder more often than not, there's a chance that he would say no. No need for higher math, just observation.
Of course, Joe McFarmer might be the kind of guy that might take those odds. Maybe old Bess, his prize cow, just died, and the crop ain't been too good this year, and he needs the money for a new milk cow and better seed.
Maybe Joe McFarmer is too stupid to live and when he comes home and tells the wife that he lost the farm on a high risk bet he kills himself in disgrace and she is left to pick up the pieces. That happened regular even in modern civilization.
- We have evidence that IQ scores have been increasing. We don't know why,
It's an open secret: I was born and they had to adjust the average upwards by 50 points or so.
I also ushered in a new era of humility, by the way.
A lack of formal education does not denote stupidity, my father for example only went as far as 4th grade but the man could do just about any math in his head faster than I could figure it with a calculator.
Lack of education doesn't make you stupid, but you still cannot do the math (beyond adding up and multiplying) unless someone tells you how to do it.
The great part about education is that you get told things it took really smart people to figure out for themselves. It takes a lot less intelligence to understand things you get told and explained than coming up with them by myself.
We all know the humorous story about the little boy Gauß who misbehaved in school and was told to add up the numbers from 1 - 100, found the shortcut (1+100)*100/2 and was done much quicker than the teacher thought. We all know the formula for adding up numbers in a row, and we can probably all do it (maybe with the help of a calculator to speed things up, but we'd all get there).
Now, I doubt that many here could have come up with that all by themselves.
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He took the defense that people back then were just as smart as we are know, and even if the technological levels were different, mathematicians and such would still exist, decry the odds at these games of chance, and people would not go.
Yes, there would be mathematicians just as there were in reality but...
A historical backup: probability and statistics both date from the mid 17th century CE.
The basic mathematical tools for calculating probability have existed since the classical Greek times, but why didn't mathematicians develop probability theory until Fermat and Pascal worked on it? What was different?
One of the postulates of probability is that undetected supernatural actors are assumed to have no influence on the outcome of an event. Before the enlightenment this was not a common philosophy. If you believe that an unseen being can influence outcomes than there's no reason to even think of the concept.
In Golarion supernatural actors are not just a superstition but a reality. I don't think they'd come up with probability on their own.
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I'm not saying that the "rubes" would have advanced probability but people can still be smart without all the education we have just in different areas, how many of us could build a pyramid or idintify herbs and roots that ease pain.People would still play games with little chance of winning,not because of lack of intellect but because they felt they may get lucky or for the thrill of that rare win. I've seen smart people play in poker tornements and it's not hard to figure out that the more players you have reduces the chance that your gonna win.
Besides people have allways beleived in luck and continue to do so.
Humans farther back on the timestream are as intelligent as the ones closer to the front. The only difference is context.
I was reading an article about the Flynn Effect and the increase of the average scores on IQ tests in the 20th century. Nutrition was one possible factor (which correlates to the average height increases over roughly the same timeframe). However, a further breakdown of the scores reveals that the increase is limited to improvements in abstract reasoning, not mathematics or verbal abilities (which have remained flat or declined slightly). One of the possibilities is that modern society places more of an emphasis on abstract reasoning and training to use it (nurture vs. nature).
Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) less intelligent than now?
In the 3rd Centry B.C.E. the Greek mathematician Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth using advanced trigonometry (that's right, people didn't really think the Earth was flat). Archimedes, a contemporary, also studied advanced algebra, geometry, and trigonometry.
Copernicus died in the 16th century. Galileo the 17th.
While most people did not have access to a proper education, people of antiquity and beyond were certainly just as capable.
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While I completely understand that there were a select few individuals that were more intelligent than the rest, if I remember right, the majority of people did believe the world was flat, right? And weren't a lot of the forward-thinking individuals burned or tried for heresy or somesuch? Not to mention the difference in locales, as a friend pointed out, Greece was definitely more advanced in mathematics than most of Europe come the medieval period.
The point is a bit moot now, since human civilization on Golarion has been around longer than civilization on Earth, so I am alright admitting that the peoples are just as if not more intelligent, on average. Though then there's the talk about if math was developed at all, when magic exists. Obviously basic geometry and such, but why go further when magic can do so many things for you? Don't need math for complex architecture with magic, or building engines, or other things.
While I completely understand that there were a select few individuals that were more intelligent than the rest, if I remember right, the majority of people did believe the world was flat, right?
No. (And Columbus wasn't out trying to the Earth was round, either.)
As for the Church condemning forward-thinking people, I have a great book that covers this subject, but it's in storage. But essentially the Church believed that everything and everyone had its place, and the universe was all perfect and harmonious and whatnot, and if you rocked the boat you were essentially a heretic. But in their defense, the Church did have some breakthroughs with their universities during the Middle Ages.
We like to imagine that everyone was basically a dumb, superstitious hick back then, because that's how they're portrayed in the movies after all, but that's not really the case. But anyway, the gist of it is that people just didn't have as much access to education back then, and it wasn't encouraged. You were to serve your lord, toil on the fields, and die for them in battle (a lot like now... seriously). But the nobility was educated (and well-trained in the arts of war).
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Anyhow, I am looking for input on the subject. Preferably historical articles or other good 'evidence', any links to reliable places would help. Were people back in Medieval times (or whatever year D&D revolves around) less intelligent than now? If Bounder existed back then, would there be people to calculate the odds and decry it, or would it thrive? The fact that it also exists in a CN city may mean something, I'm not sure. :)
Any and all facts are helpful!
Try this book:Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel.
However you may begin wondering why there is not more technology in D&D games.|
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Oh I'm already sure why there isn't. Technology comes about from the necessity to invent something useful. When magic covers a lot of things that technology was used for, why bother with it? Why pay someone to research the cure for cancer (which could take decades) when a cleric can cast Remove Disease? Why bother inventing planes when there are various Flight spells and flying creatures?
I will look into that book though. :)
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Oh I'm already sure why there isn't. Technology comes about from the necessity to invent something useful. When magic covers a lot of things that technology was used for, why bother with it? Why pay someone to research the cure for cancer (which could take decades) when a cleric can cast Remove Disease? Why bother inventing planes when there are various Flight spells and flying creatures?
I will look into that book though. :)
Because someone with magic is not always around, or because that magic is personal.
The wizard can cast fly; Joe Ordinary cannot, nor can he train a griffon.
The cleric can remove disease - if his 5th level; but he does not live in the average village.
When suggesting that magic dependent on individual spellcasters with the ability to cast a finite number of spells per day will replace the utility of universal technology, the concept quickly falls apart as the basis for an economy.
Never mind modern technology (How many sending spells would it take to replicate your cell phone? And how many more for your TV? And computer? And . . .), even plain renaissance technology is going to be heavily impacted.
How many spellcasters are going to replace how many ordinary soldiers? 1%? 10%? 50%? It does not matter, the rest still require the best arms and armor.
Will no one research metallurgy to make better swords? "They get them from the dwarves!" Macroeconomic viability aside, that means, surprise, the dwarves did the research!
What will power the forges to smelt this metal to make all these weapons? Spellcasters binding endless fire elementals? That still requires a blast furnace structure for said fire elementals to heat. That is of course good for the forests (and associated tree-huggers), but it still means yet more research.
What powers the hand forges where the individual smith's work? More bound elementals? Or some waterwheels for when the elementals get banished?
Are those armies all fed by clerics casting create food? Or will supplies have to be transported? Add horse collars to the list.
And what of the cavalry? Thousands of horse golems? Or some animal husbandry to produce better quality heavy warhorses for your knights?
The list goes on and on.
Someone, somewhere, had to do the research to develop the superior "whatever" required for any number of tasks, and yet more tasks require constant effort to be performed. Either you wind up needing the same kind of technological development we had on earth, or you wind up with Eberron-style Magipunk. All those tasks need to be done somehow, and once you default to "magic" for the "labor", you face the issues of research into "mana-saving devices" and massive unemployment caused by all those spellcasters doing "everything". Worse, you have totally begged the question of whether said spellcasters prefer such mundane-replacing labor as opposed to the "traditional" spellcaster past-times of taking over the world/being beheaded by brawny spellcaster hater barbarians and/or peforated by their athletic rogue sidekicks.
As a number of people have pointed out, ancient cultures were not primitive in any way. Recent discoveries have pointed to the greeks understanding the basic principles of computers and steam engines. Some of the medical techniques discovered in ancient India are still used today. The Minoan culture had indoor plumbing with running hot water (from natural hot springs).
However, that knowledge does not apply evenly. Most commoners had only basic math skills. Calculating odds would have benn a streach. Some of them would recognize that they lost more often than won, but usually not until after they have lost a few times. Others will throw it all away on a "sure bet," even if it is not such a sure thing. If the chance of a big payoff is there, someone will risk it.
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Because someone with magic is not always around, or because that magic is personal.The wizard can cast fly; Joe Ordinary cannot, nor can he train a griffon.
The cleric can remove disease - if his 5th level; but he does not live in the average village.
I would argue that no, Joe Ordinary cannot fly or train a griffon, but that anyone smart enough to create the technology would likely become a wizard or other caster instead. Magic Colleges replace the Universities of today. The best and brightest go to learn magic, train to channel a god's power, or become an adventurer where the real reward is at. That's why the vast majority of Joe Ordinary's are just that. Ordinary. And reliant on the ones in charge, the ones learning, the ones with power.
I'm also not entirely theorizing here, I'm justifying Golarion. A city like Korvosa has a huge Acadamae dedicated to training wizards, a group of marines that fly on Hippogriffs, and priest hoods throughout the city.
The only place in Golarion that seems to have advanced their technology at all is Alkenstar, for reasons that are obvious when you look into history.
I'm not saying that magic can or ever will perfectly replicate our technology. It can certainly do things that we have no hope of ever doing in the new future (instant teleportation), but you are right, it would take a lot of sending spells to replicate cell phones.
Still, the type of mind it would take to invent technology is, like I said, studying at the magic colleges, the places that everyone points to when you're a kid and says "that's where the smart ones go". Plus, who would back the technology? Having an idea is one thing, but mass producing it, getting financial backing? The ones with money pay for magic, after all, it's around, it's instant, and it likely does it better.
I'm not arguing that some things won't be developed, but I highly doubt in a world like this one that our level of technology will ever come about. Heck, I don't even need to doubt that, human civilizations have been around on Golarion for over 10,000 years. We've only been around on Earth for about 6,500-7,000. Sure, it's fiction, but Golarion has 3,000 years on us of 'research'. If they were going to develop certain techs, I'm sure they already would have. :)
But hey, magic! Why bother?
I can't add much to help this thread, but bear with me as I get out my soapbox to address the Flynn Effect. If I sound testy, that is because I had to look into this when two friends would passive-aggressively argue that IQ's where increasing, or decreasing over time. So I have already done this before.
The Flynn Effect is B.S. as a theory.
It came about as a theory, when an archiver named <something> Flynn was recording IQ tests statistics and noticed that every decade or so, when the IQ Test Standards people calibrated there tests to make a score of 100 average, they had to adjust the rating (I can't remember if the adjustment was up or down at this time of night, but which ever way suggests that people are getting "smarter") by about 5 to 10 points each time.
He then proposed the "Flynn Effect" as a theory.
Intrigued, several scientists dove on this theory - most to disprove it, but some to study and or prove it.
The results are as follows:
One of the scientists found that in the late 19th Century (during American Segregation) black children that were tested before the segregation did significantly worse on IQ tests after they were allowed back into "white schools." After a period of a few years, these children soon rose back up to their former levels.
Another scientists found that when a group of people of different age ranges took a modern IQ test, the younger testees did significantly better than the older testees - suggesting that as we get older we get "dumber."
It took another scientist to pick up on that data, and retest the older testees (when possible) using test standards of their educational era, or reevaluate test (when retesting wasn't possible) with the "older" standards to find that they did as well as the younger testees.
While no one has really nailed down what effects IQ, the most widely accepted, respected, and reasonable, theory is familiarity with testing procedures.
The black children forced out of their schools lost familiarity with testing procedures, so when they were retested they did worse. After "practicing" in an educational environment, they (relatively) quickly returned to their former scoring levels.
People who leave the education system, can't score as well as younger people still in the education system years later - using the later test scoring standards, but are on equal footing when rescored using the standards of their time.
As a culture, we are becoming more and more focused on testing, and testing procedures, therefor as a people we do "better" on tests.
So, it is unlikely that IQs are increasing. And even less likely that they are decreasing. But very much more likely remaining stable over the years.
I don't have any sources to cite, but with about half an hour of research I am certain any one who cares can find the same info I found.
If you'll excuse me, I need to put away my soapbox now.
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First off, blackjack is the only popular casino game, through smart play, you can lower the odds to almost even (and, if you can count a six deck shoe, or have a partner, you can make them better than even). The odds for roulette are abysmal, unless you only play black/red or odd/even, and, frankly, that gets boring quick. Craps, well, is crap, come/don't come - pass/don't pass gets boring, which is why people wind up playing the prop bets.
Gambling has never been about the odds, it's about the human desire to "win big". Casinos don't make multi-billion dollar profits because they care about being "fair", they make those profits because the house always wins in the long run. They play on people's greed, which would be why, just about every time I go to Vegas, I'll see several people WAY ahead lose it back to the house (and then some).
The games at the Gold Goblin aren't any different, frankly, and Riddleport is full of people always looking for the big score.
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Magic Colleges replace the Universities of today.
I understand what you're saying, but:
Do magic colleges have remedial learning classes? A Bachelor's degree today is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago. Just because universities lower their standards so more people qualify (and graduate) doesn't mean anyone is getting smarter.
Wizard's colleges are probably more like Doctoral programs, less chaff, more wheat. (Not that there aren't mediocre wizards, heck, a med student who passes with a "c" average is still called "Doctor".)
It amazes me how many of our inventions and advances (in all fields, not just technology) were discovered and developed by people who never went to college, or even graduated high school, for that matter. I would list them, but everyone who is reading this has access to Google.
Too many "Joe Ordinarys" are getting into college these days, and that does society no good. A piece of paper doesn't make anyone "smart", especially if anyone can get one by paying tuition and pretty much just showing up every day. All it does is create a bunch of idiots with a piece of paper to hide behind when someone calls them on their stupidity.
No, people aren't more intelligent than at any point in our past, they just have more access to information due to technology. That access doesn't necessarily mean they have a clue what to do with the information, though.
A Bachelor's degree today is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago.
It depends on the degree (and the diploma).
A B.A. in "General Studies" (or some of the other "easy" degrees*) is close to a diploma from a prep school 30 years ago; it still takes more effort and covers more than a typical high school diploma from then. There are also regional differences, depending on state standards (i.e., California and New York have higher standards for high school diplomas than some other states).
More difficult B.A. degrees and B.S. are superior to what was taught in high schools 30 years ago. Also, the recent trend has been toward Trade and Technical degrees for specific jobs. This is more an indication of the requirements for higher levels of formal training and certification in the modern job market than a "dumbing down" of the education system (take an auto mechanic, for example, who needs to deal with multiple computer-controlled systems on today's vehicles).
Granted, primary and secondary education in the U.S. does need to be improved. The public school system, in general, is hurting for new/renovated buildings, teaching materials, and teachers. However, even more than that, IMO, the U.S. needs to make education a cultural priority instead of a political issue.
*- Most still require a certain level of commitment and effort over and above what's needed for a high school diploma or G.E.D. That demonstrated commitment and effort is what makes any college degree more useful than a high school diploma.
Then, there are people who actually think they are skilled gamblers. I've met skilled gambler lottery players.
I had somebody ask me when I went to Florida, to buy a certain set of numbers for them.....I refused, then explained to them that, if I theoretically forgot for some reason to play the numbers, or lost the ticket, and somehow, those numbers happened to win, that they would be of the opinion that I owed them millions of dollars that I didn't owe them, and therefore there's actually nothing in it for me and in fact there's a nebulous cloud of bleakness potentially hanging over my head.
They kinda laughed my neurotic explanation off, but had to agree that it made perfect sense.
Sometimes I feel trapped inside my gigantic brain. I reveal things that others don't see. It makes them sad, but they understand why I'm the way I am.
I think it's good for them.
Because someone with magic is not always around, or because that magic is personal.The wizard can cast fly; Joe Ordinary cannot, nor can he train a griffon.
The cleric can remove disease - if his 5th level; but he does not live in the average village.
Joe ordinary doesn't have the funds, and probably not the educations, to invent a non-magical flying machine or a cure for a disease.
There are people with money and education, but they use that with magic instead. Because giving money to a spellcaster gives you flight and a cure for cancer now, and learning the Arts instead of the Crafts will enable you to do that in a few years, with a very reasonable chance of success.
Using money and education to further science will take time, and may not yield any success at all.
I mean, getting overland flight cast on you costs 450gp, and will give you 9 hours of flight. Starting right now.
How much money will it cost to invent a flying machine? How long will it take? Will I get my time and money back if we find out it isn't possible after all, at least not with the materials available here and now?
Sure, the flying machine will be useful to many, but I'm not many, I'm one. Why would I care about this humanoid vermin that's only good to give me taxes and the occasional droit de seigneur?
For sciences (especially those that need more than a head and a stick to draw in the sand) to really advance, you don't just need smart. You need funding. And for that you need to find a guy who not only has money, but is willing to give some of it to a charitable cause.
How many sending spells would it take to replicate your cell phone?
Enough to cast one per day each day until you have finished creating the magic item that does the job of a technological cell phone.
But anyway, the gist of it is that people just didn't have as much access to education back then, and it wasn't encouraged.
That's the big point really. Intelligence doesn't help you too much if it isn't trained.
And it doesn't help that the training exists if you can't have it.
I've seen smart people play in poker tornements and it's not hard to figure out that the more players you have reduces the chance that your gonna win.
The smart player thus increases his chances by reducing the number of players.
A Smith&Wesson trumps four aces.
One of the postulates of probability is that undetected supernatural actors are assumed to have no influence on the outcome of an event. Before the enlightenment this was not a common philosophy. If you believe that an unseen being can influence outcomes than there's no reason to even think of the concept.In Golarion supernatural actors are not just a superstition but a reality. I don't think they'd come up with probability on their own.
Just on Golarion? It works right here.
This Saturday, I bought another three of those bamboo pentagram dice (instead of pips, it has lines, one for each pip. The 5 is a full pentagram, and the 6 is circled to boot) to have four - for character generation (we're already hoping for three sixes, might as well do it right ;-))
And then one of my players suggests that I use those to roll the stats for the cleric of Asmodeus I'll have accompany the party so they have healing - they still use purchase, but I roll. It was their idea.
I thought: "Why not?"
I rolled standard 3e (4d6 6 times) and got 17, 16, 16, 15, 14, 14). Works out as 50 purchase, as opposed to 25. They asked for it.
And I'm just *sure* that if I had rolled a paladin of Serenrae or a cleric of Double C, I'd have gotten all 1s. But the Powers of Hell rewarded my character for selling his soul to them.
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I would argue that no, Joe Ordinary cannot fly or train a griffon, but that anyone smart enough to create the technology would likely become a wizard or other caster instead. Magic Colleges replace the Universities of today. The best and brightest go to learn magic, train to channel a god's power, or become an adventurer where the real reward is at. That's why the vast majority of Joe Ordinary's are just that. Ordinary. And reliant on the ones in charge, the ones learning, the ones with power.
As HoustonDerek noted, it does not require a university education, or spellcasting ability, to be creative.
However, you have now created a new problem. With all the "smart people" off being spellchuckers or adventurers, you get worse than tech stagnation, you get tech collapse because of those with the "better stuff" keeping it secret. That creates a consequent social evolution stagnation and Malthusian population limit. Now how do you explain paper or population densities over 10/square mile?I'm also not entirely theorizing here, I'm justifying Golarion. A city like Korvosa has a huge Acadamae dedicated to training wizards, a group of marines that fly on Hippogriffs, and priest hoods throughout the city.
See previous.
Your tech stagnation via brain drain has now made cities and universities impossible to sustain.Still, the type of mind it would take to invent technology is, like I said, studying at the magic colleges, the places that everyone points to when you're a kid and says "that's where the smart ones go". Plus, who would back the technology? Having an idea is one thing, but mass producing it, getting financial backing? The ones with money pay for magic, after all, it's around, it's instant, and it likely does it better.
Not all tech is the result of R&D, nor are we yet talking about full scale mass production.
However, it will come from the same place it came from historically - governments and entrepeneurs. Governments in particular are going to need information storage advancements to expand their bureaucracies and mint all those coins they love. Entrepeneurs will, inevitably, recognize that it is cheaper to pay some guy to build a better ship than it is to pay a wizard to make a raft fly. Add in even simpler things, like a nomad needing to figure out a way to make a horse collar instead of an ox collar, and you get even more tech advancement.|
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So to get into more specific questions...
1. In Golarion, is a game like Bounder popular? Successful? If so, why? Do people not realize how bad the odds are, or do they just not care?
2. Do statisticians, mathematicians, and the like exist in Golarion? Are there there more or less of them then would have existed on Earth around the medieval period? Or whatever time period would be the equivalent?
3. How has science progressed in Golarion? The point about magic being available and science being stunted is the greatest factor in a lack of science, but what has progressed? Obviously math and the like exist, but how far? Basic arithmetic? Calculus?
go to las vegas
MOST games odds are horribleits a bussiness because the hosue most of the time wins
still there is hope from te players.. or the adiction to the thrill
its not an avarage intelligent thing
you go and game for the thrill and the desire to win... worst odds better the feeling...
ask about las vegas, hotels are cheap, and they even pay regular customers their whoel trip... why? THEY LOSE MILLIONS THERE!
and this are successful and rich people
adiction to gaming is not about intelligence...
its exactly that... the trill, the expectation, the feeling that this might be the time... and the the hollow feeling of losing...
now you know why i don't game :P
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Joe ordinary doesn't have the funds, and probably not the educations, to invent a non-magical flying machine or a cure for a disease.
He does not need a flying machine, magical or otherwise.
He may need a cure for a disease though, and those can come from herbal remedies just as they do from magic spells.There are people with money and education, but they use that with magic instead. Because giving money to a spellcaster gives you flight and a cure for cancer now, and learning the Arts instead of the Crafts will enable you to do that in a few years, with a very reasonable chance of success.
And people without money will wind up being forced to innovate.
Using money and education to further science will take time, and may not yield any success at all.
Likewise with magical research.
How much money will it cost to invent a flying machine? How long will it take? Will I get my time and money back if we find out it isn't possible after all, at least not with the materials available here and now?
Less than it will take to constantly kill the wizards you have been regularly overpaying to cast spells for you until they believe they are indispensable and start getting uppity or becoming Runelords.
For sciences (especially those that need more than a head and a stick to draw in the sand) to really advance, you don't just need smart. You need funding. And for that you need to find a guy who not only has money, but is willing to give some of it to a charitable cause.
For ultra-modern technology you need funding.
For a watermill?Enough to cast one per day each day until you have finished creating the magic item that does the job of a technological cell phone.
And so you wind up with Eberron Magipunk.
Which is fine if that is your goal. If it is not, you need to accept that magic will not eliminate regular technology, especially when it provides parallel results.|
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considering Dragons are the ebst mathematichians and statisthics
and most arcane magic is about formulas...
i believe math is quite widespread along certain circles
there are also marvels of ingeniery like the Beast... how do you do that without superior architecture and Maths?
there is no science? what about Alkensar? what about the clock tower in Absalom? the dwarves are amster engeeniers... how do you do that without... lets say advanced mathematics? even if James doen't like it, there is enough science in Absalom to not demerit the peopel of there like fools incapable of thinking because there is magic...
need an aswer for your player?
easy...
people is as intelligent today as it was 500 years ago.. still NOT everyone is intelligent... and adictions like betting and drugs take from us a lot of common sence
betting for fun, you throw a few dice and go after losing spare change... betting for adicton... you keep doing till you have nothing but the clothes you have on...
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4. What kind of learning facilities are in Golarion? What do the schools teach? Are there mostly schools for young children, but no real "high school" equivalent? Are the higher-end colleges solely magic-based, or are there colleges for other subjects? How common are they? How much of the population has an education from a school, and how high do they usually go?
Korvosa and Absalom, both has Universities non magically oriented
military academies show more than fighting, show tactic, diplomacy, sciences... as did old military academies...
Sandpoint has a school for the children... which serves also as orphanage
Korvosa has 5 orphanages where kids are educated well... they are managed by clerics of Abadar or Sanrerae
there is a lot of education... it just depends where
of course the city where Second Darkenss begins is in general a hive of criminals, pirates, thugs... ok not all are that, but enough... most of them certainly are not educated.
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The dark ages were just that...dark...
Disease and poor nutrition would be the things that lowered IQ the most. Lack of proteins and fats, definitely has an effect on how well the brain functions. If all you're eating is a handful of grains every day, you're not going to be an inventor.
Schools were uncommon, but Apprenticeships were the norm, you learned a craft as an apprentice, whether it was as a cobbler, blacksmith, or architect.
Here's an idea for a new trait
Apprentice
You were apprenticed to a Master Craftsman, Gain 1 rank in any craft skill, and a +1 trait bonus due to the instruction you gained.
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As HoustonDerek noted, it does not require a university education, or spellcasting ability, to be creative.
However, you have now created a new problem. With all the "smart people" off being spellchuckers or adventurers, you get worse than tech stagnation, you get tech collapse because of those with the "better stuff" keeping it secret. That creates a consequent social evolution stagnation and Malthusian population limit. Now how do you explain paper or population densities over 10/square mile?
Whoever said they would keep it secret? I would assume that they sell the services. A wizard could spend a few days preparing and selling scrolls of Overland Flight in place of planes, a cleric can constantly keep a town in Water (especially with the Beta rules, no more droughts so long as a cleric is around), priesthoods can double as hospitals so long as there is no plague (if not able to afford Remove Disease, Lesser Restorations will help in the meanwhile), and so on.
Researching replacements and using them would be expensive and likely not supported by those with the money (like KaeYoss said, they can already buy what's out there).
It sucks to be Joe Ordinary in D&D. There's a very big disparity between the rich and the poor. Sure, some things can be 'researched', but they will be things far away from replicating what magic can do. Herbal remedies, new blacksmithing techniques, politics, etc. No one in their right mind is going to try to research the cure for a disease (assuming simple herbal remedies don't work) when there are plenty of Priests around to sell that service for a decent price.
And it is assumed even Joe Ordinary can afford it. Wealth level of D&D commoners aside, the Saldado family was close to affording it in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, and there have been a few old articles back on the wizards boards concerning the economy of a commoner that would lead me to believe saving up 100 gold, while not easy, could happen over the course of 8-10 months. I doubt they need to worry about a life-threatening disease every year.
Also, cities and universities impossible to sustain? Who do you think runs them? The ones with money, the wizards, the high priests, the ex-adventurers. They can still afford magic for themselves and, well, anyone they want to really. When a university is run by mages, I doubt it has many issues staying afoot. Heck, I know they don't. Korvosa has a very prospering one.
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Whoever said they would keep it secret? I would assume that they sell the services.
Selling services is not the same as making the way to provide the service readily available.
A wizard could spend a few days preparing and selling scrolls of Overland Flight in place of planes, a cleric can constantly keep a town in Water (especially with the Beta rules, no more droughts so long as a cleric is around), priesthoods can double as hospitals so long as there is no plague (if not able to afford Remove Disease, Lesser Restorations will help in the meanwhile), and so on.They could, but that requires a willingness on their part to do so.
It also requires money:Researching replacements and using them would be expensive and likely not supported by those with the money (like KaeYoss said, they can already buy what's out there).How do people have money for spontaneous fixes but not for long term R&D?
Also, cities and universities impossible to sustain? Who do you think runs them? The ones with money, the wizards, the high priests, the ex-adventurers. They can still afford magic for themselves and, well, anyone they want to really. When a university is run by mages, I doubt it has many issues staying afoot. Heck, I know they don't. Korvosa has a very prospering one.How do they feed themselves?
Where do they get all the paper and ink they need?
Where do they get all the lab equipment they need?
How do they build and maintain them?Remember, all of the technology to do these things is provided solely and exclusively by magic under the "no tech" paradigm. With only those people capable of casting spells able to provide these materials, you wind up with only a small percentage of the population supporting everyone and everything. How do those people find the time to also build a university and educate new students?