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We are starting a new campaign in the local gaming store. After playing Clerics ( the cloisterd type), Wizards and Bards, one of my friends cajoled me into giving the tank role a try. I have chosen to play a Paladin. The party is beginning at 5th level. I took 4 levels of paladin and 1 level of knight, at 5th level. For skills I have diplomacy, Heal, knowledge religion, sense motive. For feats I have chosen exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword, Power attack and Divine might.
I am finding my knights challenge (+1 to hit and damage on a foe) works nicely with the Divine might feat (Free action spend turn undead to add Cha to damage) and my smite evil. I also like to have the flexibility of using the bastard sword two handed if I want a little extra damage, or one handed using a sword and shield for little extra AC.
The game is being run at the local gaming store, on “ game night” so there is an open door policy. Anyone who shows up can play. We have a wide range of ages at the table. My friend (who works at the gaming store and hosts the game night) and I are in our late 30s. Another regular is a college kid in his 20s, and high school kid around 16, and finally there are two younger kids around 13 and 14.
Class wise our party is very balanced. Alignment wise, it will be interesting.
One of the younger kids, a mature 14 yr old is playing a N human fighter, (the player has chosen to use the Heavy flail, and do the combat expertise, improved disarm, improved trip, power attack, cleave and great cleave) it makes for an interesting and flexible character build.
The college kid is running a N dwarven wizard; I think he is an evoker. There are lots of flaming spheres and burning hands.
The DM is the 16 year old. He is running his first game after playing in the store for over 3 years. He is running an NPC LG female cleric.
The two other players are my friend and our host, and the other young teenager, who has chosen to play another rogue. the teenager initially wanted to play CE, but upon someone else’s advice he chose CN. His character aspires to be an assassin and has said as much in character and aloud. I realize he is 13) I’m not too worried about the kid.
I am more worried about my friend, who is playing a CE thief, woops rogue. whom I suspect has beefed up on the social skills of bluff, intimidate etc. He is a much more capable manipulator. I suspect our characters will most likely kill each other. Either he will do something I think my character will feel honor bound to respond to violently, or more likely, I think he will do something and then kill my character in his sleep and remove my character as a threat before he can respond.
There is also the catch of my paladin cant knowingly adventure with evil companions. My character has not used detect evil on the party yet; he has not had a reason to. We shall see what happens. Out of game I know that my friend plans to have his rogue get our party to kidnap the mayors daughter once she is rescued and demand more money.
I have not been at the game for two sessions. We shall see what happens.
We are playing in the world of Ptolas, so my paladin is a follower of Lothian. Our party's current job is to rescue the mayor’s daughter. This is our first job working together. Minotaurs have kidnapped her, and we have to go into their maze and rescue her.
I am wondering if you have any advice on how to deal some of the challenges that are involved with bringing a paladin to the table?
Thanks
As long as they don't act evil you have no resan to detect evil on them. But really if they do the party will have to pick sides, and the side with the most people in it stays, the ones with the lest makes new pc's.
The Dm should have talked to the group and made it clear a paladin can not play with evil partys, As far as that goes most good AL's will not stay with an evil party.
There will be a show down at some point it can't be avoided. LG does not play well with evil pc's normally. The party just can not play well with CE among them the two LG pc's will come into conflict and it's up in air which way the N's go.........CE is the issue, he wont stay hide long he is not LE, or NE , he will not be able to hide what he is very long at all and then conflict will happen.
I am wondering if you have any advice on how to deal some of the challenges that are involved with bringing a paladin to the table?
Thanks
The first red flag is that two people want to play CE (even though one is "technically" CN). This is a no win situation in any party with a LG character, not just a paladin, unless one of the main party interaction themes will be about the CE character's redemption. From the comments (one wants to be an assassin, the other basically wants to screw the world over), they will probably constantly be butting heads with the paladin/knight and the LG DMPC cleric. Very few parties can handle this sort of situation without it devolving into player-vs-player conflict.
My recommendation is to discuss the alignment concerns within the party with the DM and the rest of the group. A party works best if everybody (players and DM) is on the same page with the tone of the campaign. For most groups, it's best if all the characters have compatible attitudes; this group doesn't. It sounds as if you and the DM are expecting a "typical" heroic campaign (i.e., good and noble deeds), two are expecting a "kill the monsters and take their stuff" sort of campaign, and two want to "explore the dark side."
It may end up that some players may need to change their characters. In your case, changing your character to a Paladin of Tyranny may be an option.
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I would suggest planning on having your paladin fall at some point. Be persuaded by the rogue to harsher and harsher measures in the pursuit of 'justice'. Turn blackguard. (Familiar with Death Note? Be Yagami Light. Or Darth Vader if you like that image better. Honorable so long as it serves your purpose.) As others have stated, you want to be the shining beacon of truth and justice and others want to be antipaladins. It doesn't mix because you're not all on the same page. One of you is going to have to bend to keep the group from breaking and I doubt the others will.
And for heaven's sake don't smite the moment you detect them as evil. Try roleplaying it out some before the swords come out. Give them a chance to shoot first so you aren't the bad guy. ^_^
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Yeah, remember that they are PCs, not NPCs. So, no automatic Detect Evil, nor any Smite Evil once detection is confirmed. How lenient we are to this PC/NPC distinction. (too bad there is no rolling-eyes simley around here).
Come on. Your character should have used detect evil on his associates from the get-go. And if they do not raise alarms, you may assume that they are either good or redeemable. Heck, your character might get close to them and try to redeem them.
When (not if) you detect them as evil, act in a subtle way. Build up your Bluff skill (and hope they counted on you for the Sense Motive thing), then excuse yourself from their company and come back with heavy reinforcements.
Being a Paladin does not mean getting suicidal when you are surrounded by enemies as long as you have another path opened to you to help restore truth and justice.
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Thanks for the thoughts. I suppose the tone of the game is not my responsibility. It is the responsibility of the DM. However I realize this is his first time DMing.
Usually, I play a "support" character like a cleric and sometimes a bard. When I do the wizardly roll, I usually " buff" the other party members with such spells as bull str, cats grace, bears endurance, Haste, Slow, etc. In other words, I am used to tending to the parties needs rather then my own first. Interestingly, earlier that same day, before we got to the game store to make characters, I did call my friend and I told him that I was making a paladin. Later I asked him why he chose to make a CE thief, when he knew I was making a paladin beforehand, and he said, “ I don’t know it was a random decision”.
And also I realize my concerns have been how the party is going to stay "together". Seekerforshadowlight Thanks for pointing out, with LG and CE conflict is inevitable. And perhaps it isn’t my responsibility to try and keep the party together. Dragon Chess Player, thanks for the suggestion about talking with the group and pointing out the problems of having CE and LG in the same party. I also appreciate your observations about two players thinking of a “heroic “ campaign, Two thinking of a “ kill the monsters and take their stuff” campaign, and two wanting to “explore “ the dark side. Yep in the end some people might need to change their characters. Since I usually find myself playing a “ supporting” cleric or some other class, and tending to the needs of others, for a change, I am not particularly interested in changing my character to suite others tastes. Perhaps I should also bring this up along with the alignment concerns.
Triomegazero, I appreciate your thoughts as well, the fallen blackguard might be an interesting character concept and character journey. I would like to propose another journey. What about the journey of Jon Val Jon in Le Miserable? He stole yes because he was hungry, but was given a chance at redemption. Why not have the CE thief redeemed? I know my friend will have to be interested in such an idea, and I am pretty sure he wont be. And as you have pointed out, we are not on the same page. Someone will have to bend to keep the group from breaking. Maybe the group will break. I am tired of bending. And I will try the role-playing approach before the swords come out. I plan to use my sense motive and diplomacy skills.
Thank you Black raven for your suggestions, Lawful good doesn’t mean being Lawful stupid. Yes our characters all met in a bar and answered an add for a job. And I did do a detect evil sweep of the bar. Its easy to sit for three rounds chin in steeepeled I hands at a table while waiting for a drink while detecting evil. The Dm told me about some faint evil auras, and I know he wasn’t specifically aware of the Rogue PCs alignments at the time because I asked him why I didn’t pick up the CE alignment after the game and he told me he didn’t know what their alignments were at the time. Perhaps my character will try to redeem them. Perhaps he will give them enough rope, and let them hang themselves with it. In other words, no preaching, but he will note what they do, the choices they make, and how they behave. I like the idea of returning with heavy reinforcements. And I appreciate your comment about “Being a Paladin does not mean getting suicidal when you are surrounded by enemies as long as you have another path opened to you to help restore truth and justice.”
What do you all think of this approach? I have thought about taking a Calvinist/ Marshal approach. In other words, there are races, which are generally good with evil exceptions namely the Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, and Gnomes. There are races that are evil and there might be exceptions, such as Humanoids: goblioids (goblins orcs hobgoblins) gnolls, lizard men, drow ogres Minotaurs etc. Since we of the chosen races (Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Gnomes) are bringing light and civilization to the world, it is our duty to uproot and drive these blights (the aforementioned humanoids) before us with our swords, destroy their homes, and make way for the spread of civilization. So then what does it matter, what someone does to a goblin or orc (torture for information), if we are going to put them to the sword, drive them out of homes, destroy their villages, to make way for settlement by the “chosen” races.
In terms of the Marshal approach, the law should be respected, and miscreants turned over to the proper authorities. If there are no proper authorities present, as a representative of the Peerage of the Nobility, and a servant of the Light (Lothian) my character will do just fine. He is more then capable of sitting in judgment and meeting out punishment for crimes himself.
Thank you for your thoughts gentlemen; we shall see what will happen on Saturday. Ill bring up my concerns with the group before the game thanks.
I would love to hear more thoughts as well.
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Hidy Ochiai once related a story during a demonstration at my high school that went something like this:
"I was travelling in New York City, and found myself in an alley, when a man came after me with a knife. I disarmed him, and began to walk away, because, as a Christian, I believe in turning the other cheek. When he came after me again with the knife, I disarmed him and beat the crap out of him. I only have two cheeks."
A paladin should practice honor and kindness in all things. A creature with freedom of choice must be shown how to choose good whenever possible. However, once a creature has proven itself to be irredeemably evil, it is a Paladin's task to rid the world of that evil, as a service to Society, to her God,and to the miserable creature whose life she ends.
Some creatures are born into evil, surrounded and embraced by evil from childhood, and have no freedom to make the choice to be good. It is a kindness to put such creatures down, and a duty under her God of the Paladin to protect Society from such creatures. Since an individual who escapes from such surroundings at the right time in their lives may become capable of choosing good, it behooves the Paladin to deal with such on an individual basis.
Other creatures are so irrovocably linked to Evil that they cannot do good, except in the service of a greater evil. These creatures exist to tempt good creatures into evil acts, or merely to destroy all that is good. The Paladin is to destroy these creatures on sight, and by any means at her disposal.
In the case of an associate who declares their wish to become an assassin, a wise paladin will seek out the route desire that has steered the companion towards such an evil end, and see if it can be brought back into balance; if the desire can be fulfilled by a means that serves the greater good. If the associate can be showed the error of their ways, and can be brought back into the light of goodness, it is the Paladin's duty to make the attempt. If the companion has so far fallen that he cannot see the light through his own darkness, the Paladin must end his suffering, and prevent him from causing harm to others.
A Paladin should practice care, understanding, and patience with her companions, allowing them the full measure of grace she herself has been given. Should she find herself being manipulated, deceived, or sullied by their decision to act in an evil manner, she must end the relationship. Sometimes by beating the crap out of them.
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ElyasRavenwood
Actually under the pathfinder rules it's entirely possible for you to have not detected their evil nature with detect. Since you started 5th level and according to the chart on page 215 of the beta characters of 5th level or lower do not show up to detect (although it is debatable because the chart then says level 5-10 do have a faint aura but for your purposes I would say that you go with they don't)
and because the paladin now has a targeted detect evil found here it's entirely possible to write off that you never detect them for evil and simply go with your bluff/sense motive.
This won't prevent party conflict in the long run as I'm sure they'll take actions that will cause conflict with the good guys. But it does give you the excuse you need to be able to travel with them for now.
As for the inevetable conflict, it isn't as inevetable as you might think. I always point people who play evil characters to take a look at belkar from order of the stick.
Also since you might never detect them for evil it's possible your character can simply assume they are misguided and need a paladins example to come around. In fact you could make it part of your personal moral code to never detect evil on your companions theres lots of ways to write that off. Basically once they've become your ally (meaning they passed the initial detect) it's an invasion of their privacy to always be monitering them for slipping into evil and rather than detect you consider it a personal goal to lead them to the light by example.
Anywho, this is all just food for thought. I also always recomend that players develop their own personal code of conduct and not just import the one from the book. Work it out with your DM. I've played in campaigns where I've played a paladin with people of questionable morals without it descending into PvP, so I know it can be done, it isn't necessarily easy, but it can be fun if you put your mind to it.
If you want to try making the party work, try to play it out realistically. In the real world, what does someone do when they suspect their companions can't be trusted? Ignore alignments per se and have the paladin deal with them as an honorable, reasonable person would deal with dishonest coworkers in real life.
I suspect that I'd keep an eye on them if I were him, secretly informing their prospective victims of their treachery. "I think that their skills can be made to serve the cause of justice, but I may be wrong. If anything happens to me, you'll know what happened."
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one of my friends cajoled me into giving the tank role a try. I have chosen to play a Paladin. ...My friend (who works at the gaming store and hosts the game night) ... I am more worried about my friend, who is playing a CE thief,
I smell a rat.....Did the friend in any way influence you to play the Paladin role specifically? Decide upon this CE thief after you had? ...
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Gentlemen, thank you again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.
I have called the paladin character Fidel Navarre. I think Fidel is Spanish for faithful, and I think Navarre is a region in Spain. Also I fondly remember Rutger Hauer’s character, whom I think was called Navarre, from the movie Lady hawk. I also thought the double over and under crossbow the character had was extremely cool.
I haven’t even figured out a background for him yet. “Hello My name is Inigo Montoya,” does come to mind.
Reckless what you point out would certainly fit what my conception of how a paladin should be and how I most likely will end up playing this character. I was just kicking around another possibility. Perhaps the Calvinist/ marshal approach would be more reflective of a Lawful Neutral Knight rather then a Lawful good paladin.
I haven’t even figured out a background for him yet.
Last Knight left, Thank you as well, for sharing the subtle changes between 3.5 and pathfinder. I know we are considering and I would like to give the pathfinder rules a try, but we are using 3.5 for now as our default.
Weather I picked up the auras or not now is a moot point. We shall see how things unfold. Their actions will determine weather my character will do a “ detect evil” on them again. You do make a good point about not constantly monitoring other people’s behavior after they have become your ally. This is our first adventure, and we are not allies yet.
I do appreciate the Belker example, and thoroughly enjoyed the speed at which he deployed a lead sheet. However, I would suggest, I think Belkar might be LE, he is loyal, and does in his own way look after his own party members, he is willing to help Elan, and enjoys seeing Vaarsuvius taken down a peg. The Chasm between LG and CE might be too far to bridge, we shall see.
Sir wolf, I appreciate your suggestions as well. Perhaps watching and waiting is the best course.
Nyvnexx, come to think of it your right. The same friend that nudged me into playing a “tank” roll, I told I was going to play a paladin, and then after we finished character creation, he mentioned he was playing a CE thief.
I have thought of a “non violent solution”. Since my paladin isn’t willing to work with “evil’ comrades, he could just leave the party, and invite any who wants to come with him, and dis invite the CE thief. That would be cruel and childish and mean; it would be would be a popularity contest. Well we shall see.
We shall see what happens this evening.
I guess the best thing for me to do, is to try to enjoy the game, and possibly even my character (I might wait a couple of sessions before writing a background.).
I think in order to do this, and stay “true” to my conception of a paladin, which is very similar to Recklesses ideas, I have to be willing to let the chips fall where they may, and be willing to walk away, either, my paladin will be staying in the group, or he will be leaving on his own two feet, or in a pine box. If there is a conflict, and it is an ugly one with hurt feelings, I can always leave. Luckily I am in two weekly D&D games, and I prefer the other one anyways. I’m not going to have my paladin look for a fight, but hopefully he will finish it.
Ah well, this is at the end of the day only a game. A fun one but only a game. We shall see what happens.
Thank you again for your thoughts.
In my current game, I made a fairly simple rule: No Paladins. No Warlocks. Nothing amazingly good or horrifically evil with any inconvenient vows, obligations, or bizarre codes of personal honor that will get in the way of party unity. Clerics are fine so long as they're sensible Friar Tuck sorts who'd rather discuss theology than smite the infidel. Alignment should be vaguely neutral goodish.
As a result, we have a pretty fun party, where there is still friction, but of an amusing sort. Prince Fritzie carps about the peasants he's around, despite the fact that they're all low level adventurers so there's no real class difference between the prince of way-over-yonder and the farmer's son from dumpy hick valley.
My last game had two paladins in it and the rest of the characters were vetted beforehand to make certain they'd fit with the paladins.
I think Belkar might be LE...
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Saern, well I stand corrected. I followed your link, and out of the horse’s mouth, he is Chaotic. So that would make him chaotic evil. There we are.
Well Saturday night at the gaming store there was a flood of people. So we split into three groups. Neither my friend nor I wanted to DM the group, which calved off form the main group. After rock paper scissors, which I won, (the looser would DM for the evening), my friend who works at the game store, DMed, and we took the three kids new to the game (all around 15, while my friend and I are in our late 30s) and ran a separate D&D game. My friend and I helped them make fighters. We made the Great sword power attack combo for one kid, The Spiked chain, trip and disarm, for another, and for the third, we made an archer.
After 45 minutes of character creation we were all set to go. My character the paladin was given the job of hiring a group of adventurers to clear a local mausoleum, so after a half an hour role-playing, My character “ interviewed” to find out, “what is your name, what is your favorite color, what is your quest?” (They missed my Holy Grail reference). We used this opportunity to help the kids figure out names (Heracles, Agamemnon, and Zeus) and backgrounds for their characters, why they were adventuring etc. So after some laugher we had things figured out.
For the evening we ended up with a LG paladin a CE thief um Rogue (my friends character), and three figures of initially neutral alignment. I decided to let their actions and choices determine their alignment rather then give it out in the beginning of the game, and Neutral seemed to be a good place to start. I laid out the terms and conditions of employment. 40 gp if we find nothing 500 if we do find undead and kill them, and all the loot and spoils, we divide evenly monetarily. There was a little grumbling from the rogue but after that we started. Yes I know my paladin. Perhaps should not have hired the CE rogue, but sometimes the rules on the book have to bend to the reality on the table. My friend was running the game, this was his character, so I didn’t feel I could exclude him.
Since I was the “employer” my character made plenty of suggestions which I confined to tactics, when to move in and hit, to flank etc. I refrained from making moral suggestions. It was an interesting evening, as we fought skeletons and then Vampire spawn. In our haste to make characters, I had forgotten to equip them with back up weapons. So we were introduced to DR when facing the ogre skeletons the corridor was only 10’ wide, so only two of the three melee warriors could engage the skeletons at time. After a couple of rounds we figured things out. I made tactical suggestions, namely to have my paladin, with his shield and war hammer, (My character switched from bastard sword to War hammer, in the second round) and the Great sword fighter in the front ranks, while the Spiked chain fighter, and the archer fought form the rear rank. The thief said, “ Ill watch your backs and make sure nothing comes up the corridor from behind”. This produced a comment “ from behind, that’s so gay”…. Laughter. Then the archer decided the rogue wasn’t contributing to the fight, and thus a chase ensued. The archer wanted to throw the thief um rogue, to the other side of the fight so he could flank the ogre skeletons. Instead of explaining his intentions to the suspicious rogue he said. “ Come here I have something really cool to show you “ This produced another “that is so gay” more laughter, and the archer chased the rogue around the column. More laughter. We began making some headway. Behind the ogre skeletons there was another figure, cloaked, with red glowing eyes, which magic missled us with a wand. This enemy ducked around a corner as we were demolishing the ogre skeletons. We found ourselves next to a door, (not the corner our mysterious assailant ducked behind) which proved very tempting, and the fighters broke it down. Inside we found a sarcophagus, with a clear crystal window so we could see who was inside. While everyone else was looking for a secret door or treasure in other parts of the room, The Archer looked into the sarcophagus window, and saw a pale face with bald head, pointy ears, and big sharp canine incisors. It opened its eyes and then dissolved into green mist. With a yelp the archer ran to another part of the room. This produced another “ that is so gay” and we all crowded around to see what was in the sarcophagus. We saw nothing. All of our attention was absorbed on the archer as he recounted what happened. I commented “ well maybe that wasn’t so gay” More laughter. No one was watching the door. In came the vampire spawn. Plural. There were four of them. We began fighting. One of them looked at my character and I rolled a 2 so I failed my will save. First the vampire spawn commanded me to put down my sword and fight him hand to hand like a man. I did so and was prepared to punch and grapple the vampire, but I was dragged off by one of the other characters. I got free and charged one of the vampires, and used my smite evil on him, I rolled a crit, and killed the vampire spawn. Then I was told to “sleep” so I fell down. The other great sword fighter, had lost a couple of levels before he failed his will save, and he likewise was commanded to sleep, he was having a bad day. The thief had spent the time hiding behind the sarcophagus. This produced another “ that is so gay”. More laughter. The archer spotted him and chased him around the sarcophagus into the arms of the vampire spawn. Then there was the suggestion that “The archer and the rouge get a room because he has something really cool to show you”. More laugher. Surprisingly, it was the “evil” chain fighter, who dragged my character to Safety, and between his tripping efforts and the rouges efforts fending the vampire spawn’s attacks, and the archers string of good luck, they finished off the vampire spawn. The “evil” characters saved the day. After the great sword fighter and I recovered, my paladin was given the party treasure for safekeeping. They said they could trust me to divide it evenly and honestly. I asked the “evil “ fighter why he bothered to save my paladin, and he replied, “ You are one less person I have to watch my back with”. So we don’t know about retention, the group may be entirely different next week, but I think, ill do fine with the paladin. I don’t think the other players are going immediately kill me. (There was perfect opportunity to do my character in, in the confusion of the battle with the vampire spawns, but nobody did, nor did they rifle through my characters belongings.
I think my character will stick around; to try and inspire his comrades to do the right thing through is actions and deeds, not his sermons. We had fun that night. Which in hindsight was the most important thing.
We shall see what happens next weekend. Thanks for your advice and thoughts.
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I wish I'd found this Thread sooner. But it doesn't look like there's a problem yet.
Since some of the Players are new, and already into gaming, it's a perfect place to talk, outside of game, about alignment. Here's what I strongly recommend: the Players who have conflicting alignments need to articulate precisely what makes their PCs aligned.
Exactly what makes your Paladin LG? If your answer is "He's a Paladin," then you're at fault -- but it's easily fixable. Especially since this is your first Paladin, you can start from scratch. Burn Sturm Brightblade in hell for the blob of offal he is and make a real Paladin. Likewise, the Thief's Player needs to determine exactly what his CE PC means for him. It AIN'T a free pass to do wtf he wants and ruin the game -- which it doesn't sound like he's tried, so good. And you're right about the kid playing the CN/CE? Thief -- he's new enough to be malleable at the table. Just make sure the DM keeps control.
That seems to be the only real "scare." You, the two experienced gamers, need to give advice from time to time -- always presenting both sides of the issue -- and then acquiesce to whatever decisions he makes. He'll make some mistakes for not following your advice sometimes but that's okay; it's certainly better than DMing for him from the Player's seat.
-W. E. Ray
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In my current game, I made a fairly simple rule: No Paladins. No Warlocks.
Ouch.
Consider reconsidering this rule.
If your Players are going to devote x number of hours of their precious free time each session and make an effort to show up regularly, you have an obligation to try and let them play the Character Concept they want to play. Sure, occassionally it won't work out but it usually does. Just have the obligatory pre-campaign conversation about any possible problem PCs and try to work them out.
In the game that I'm Playing in right now I'm a gestalt Paladin/Warlock, LG Hellbred. Very LG. Another PC is a CE drow. It was very easy (in this case) to find a solution: my Paladin wants to convert this CE freak to LG. BUT!!!, he's willing to wait 'til the opportunity presents itself before trying -- you know, like, in a few years when the campaign we're playing in is long over. Meanwhile, I'll be doin the LG things and he can see how cool it is to be LG. And I'll end up, in the long run, converting a Lolth-bound dike to the REAL alignment -- very important to a Hellbred! Or heck, maybe I'll be the one that ends up converting!! Meanwhile, the Player has his own reasons for "adventuring" with my PC. And none of this ever affects our in-game enjoyment.
The DM should never arbitrarily eliminate something. There should be a reason. Just like I would never outlaw Elves from my campaign -- despite the fact that they suck salty bum, and the 99% of gamers who aren't completely off their meds all have a righteous hatred for D&D Elves, it doesn't mean I should exclude them.
-W. E. Ray
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one of my friends cajoled me into giving the tank role a try. I have chosen to play a Paladin. ...My friend (who works at the gaming store and hosts the game night) ... I am more worried about my friend, who is playing a CE thief,I smell a rat.....Did the friend in any way influence you to play the Paladin role specifically? Decide upon this CE thief after you had? ...
NICE!
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I would suggest planning on having your paladin fall at some point. Be persuaded by the rogue to harsher and harsher measures in the pursuit of 'justice'. Turn blackguard. (Familiar with Death Note?
Wow, I hope you're not serious. Don't you think he should be able to run the PC he wants? Only if the DM and Players agree it just can't work should a Player be asked to change his/her Character Concept.
And for heaven's sake don't smite the moment you detect them as evil. ... Give them a chance to shoot first so you aren't the bad guy. ^_^
LOL
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In my current game, I made a fairly simple rule: No Paladins. No Warlocks.Ouch.
Consider reconsidering this rule.
If your Players are going to devote x number of hours of their precious free time each session and make an effort to show up regularly, you have an obligation to try and let them play the Character Concept they want to play. Sure, occassionally it won't work out but it usually does. Just have the obligatory pre-campaign conversation about any possible problem PCs and try to work them out. There's usually going to be the guy that always wants to play CN Bard.
In the game that I'm Playing in right now I'm a gestalt Paladin/Warlock, LG Hellbred. Very LG. Another PC is a CE drow. It was very easy (in this case) to find a solution: my Paladin wants to convert this CE freak to LG. BUT, he's willing to wait 'til the opportunity presents itself before trying -- you know, like, in a few years when the campaign they're adventuring in is long over. Meanwhile, I'll be doing the LG things and he can see how cool it is to be LG. And I'll end up, in the long run, converting a Lolth-bound pubic hair to the REAL alignment -- very important to a Hellbred! Or heck, maybe I'll be the one that ends up converting!! Meanwhile, the Player has his own reasons for "adventuring" with my PC. And none of this ever affects our in-game enjoyment.
The DM should never arbitrarily eliminate something. There should be a reason. Just like I would never outlaw Elves from my campaign -- despite the fact that they suck salty bum, and the 99% of gamers who aren't completely off their meds all have a righteous hatred for D&D Elves, it doesn't mean I should exclude them.
-W. E. Ray
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Wow, I hope you're not serious. Don't you think he should be able to run the PC he wants? Only if the DM and Players agree it just can't work should a Player be asked to change his/her Character Concept.
Sometimes you have to give. I learned pretty quick when I came in contact with someone who only played CE Unseelie Fey Warlock. Every game. Same character. Even when we asked him to play something else. And he played a LG Cleric of Pelor. And still cried out for us to slaughter the orcs.
So if he can play with these players without bowing and scraping, I salute him. He's lucky. Some people don't work out like that.
In my current game, I made a fairly simple rule: No Paladins. No Warlocks.Ouch.
Consider reconsidering this rule.
If your Players are going to devote x number of hours of their precious free time each session and make an effort to show up regularly, you have an obligation to try and let them play the Character Concept they want to play. Sure, occassionally it won't work out but it usually does. Just have the obligatory pre-campaign conversation about any possible problem PCs and try to work them out.
I'm playing with an established group of players who've been together for over three years, and some going back twenty (one of my old friends from college). There were paladins in the previous campaign, tons of fey, even a tiefling. It was very fun, but was very much the strange and magical creatures dealing with the easily freaked out mortals.
This new game, I asked everyone to come up with a character from the realm of the easily freaked out mortals--human or halfling--without huge moral obligations, etc. No one had a problem with that. One player wanted her character to have been raised by wolves, which we worked with and has become a highly entertaining plot point.
I do not have to put catgirls in my world just because someone wants to play one. If a sorceress with a cat-theme to her Spell Thematics isn't close enough, consider another character.
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I wish I'd found this Thread sooner. But it doesn't look like there's a problem yet.
Since some of the Players are new, and already into gaming, it's a perfect place to talk, outside of game, about alignment. Here's what I strongly recommend: the Players who have conflicting alignments need to articulate precisely what makes their PCs aligned.
Exactly what makes your Paladin LG? If your answer is "He's a Paladin," then you're at fault -- but it's easily fixable. Especially since this is your first Paladin, you can start from scratch. Burn Sturm Brightblade in hell for the blob of offal he is and make a real Paladin. Likewise, the Thief's Player needs to determine exactly what his CE PC means for him. It AIN'T a free pass to do wtf he wants and ruin the game -- which it doesn't sound like he's tried, so good. And you're right about the kid playing the CN/CE? Thief -- he's new enough to be malleable at the table. Just make sure the DM keeps control.
That seems to be the only real "scare." You, the two experienced gamers, need to give advice from time to time -- always presenting both sides of the issue -- and then acquiesce to whatever decisions he makes. He'll make some mistakes for not following your advice sometimes but that's okay; it's certainly better than DMing for him from the Player's seat.
-W. E. Ray
Gentlemen, thank you all for your suggestions.
Molech, thank you for this nugget..... Exactly what makes your paladin LG......Like-wise the Thief's player needs to determine exactly what his CE PC means for him. It aint a free pass to do What the F.... he wants and ruin the game.I think the answer to What makes my paladin LG, and what makes my friends thief CE, will help answer allot of questions. Also it will help to define how our charcter's will interact.
We shall see what happens next weekend. And perhaps i need to to start on a character background. Thanks :)
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I'm playing with an established group of players ... This new game, I asked everyone to come up with a character...
Yup, this pretty much explains it. Occassionally we as DMs run something (such as Ravenloft) that works better with an all or nearly all human PC group. Of course this is fine. I misread your statement earlier thinking that you'd never allow a couple classes regardless of campaign or Player desire.
And, here, you've got an established group of experienced gamers; you know what's what.
I do not have to put catgirls in my world just because someone wants to play one.
Absolutely true!
I came off a little too "willing" in my advice. Let me emphasize, there should be a reason, non-arbitrary for disallowing something. As DM, you are the one who comes up with the criteria behind the decisions. If Catgirls don't fit in your world then they don't fit and that's sufficient reason.A couple years ago a gamer newbie asked to join the campaign I was beginning. His first question to the DM (even before, "What's your name?") was if he could play a half dragon. I didn't say "no" I said "Hell No." I'm sure it sounded arbitrary but there were lots of reasons behind that decision.
-W. E. Ray
Not having read all the posts, but I did notice the initial setting was going to be Ptolus. IIRC (which is doubtful) there is a whole group of paladin's dedicated to "rehabiliting" evil creatures.
There are lots of ways you can have a LG pally and a CE guy in a group and make it work. Especially when a setting gives you such a big aid to doing so.
Now, whether the player wants to make it work is another situation all together. If he just wants to kill you in your sleep, well, you have many problems.
I do not have to put catgirls in my world just because someone wants to play one.Absolutely true!
I came off a little too "willing" in my advice. Let me emphasize, there should be a reason, non-arbitrary for disallowing something. As DM, you are the one who comes up with the criteria behind the decisions. If Catgirls don't fit in your world then they don't fit and that's sufficient reason.
The reasons are never arbitrary. I come up with a set world and I like everything in it to click. Obviously I can't think of everything, so I have no trouble with players asking about something unusual, but I have to see whether it fits or not.
It makes a world insane and chaotic if you have to shoehorn in everything ever published in splatbook, especially if you're expected to work in the often inane backstories which say dippy things like "are loved and accepted by people everywhere" or "everyone knows of them" despite the fact that they only appeared last Tuesday and look virtually indistinguishable from the horrible monsters everyone has been fighting.
Can you tell the difference between a catgirl and a rhakshasa? No? Then why should you expect anyone else to?
Of course, while doing this rant, I just discovered a way to work in catgirls: not all rhakshasas need to be evil. But most of them are, so it really comes to much the same thing.
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Hey Myles, Brandon here (if you remember me).
“that is so gay” x5
Sigh...there are some really good guys that show up at Toy City game nights, but there are also the 13 year olds...
I'd say you're pretty safe sticking with your paladin idea, especially if this is in Rob's Ptolus game. If it comes down to disruptively evil characters, Rob's not afraid to have the law come down on them, whether it's Church law or the town guard.
Really, the greater challenge might be keeping the party together. Maybe you can take the "school counselor" approach to faith, and try to help the rogues (meaning the class as well as the scoundrel) restrain themselves, if not reform them outright.
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Well Last night the game was interesting. We picked up right after defeating the vampire spawn. One of the kids was talking about killing my sleeping paladin. He said then we could get him out of the way and you can play an evil character. He looked at me expectantly. I don’t think I actually growled at him, but I replied “ no you don’t want me to play an evil character.” I guess the kid thought better of it, because he moved his attention to the other sleeping character, his friend, and began musing about killing him. The DM chimed in and said “ yeah the problem with killing other peoples PCs is that, all that will happen is that the guy whose character you have killed, will come back with another “ new “ character (probably the same exact character with a different name who is a long lost twin brother), and he will immediately have a hatred for your character and try to kill him at the first opportunity. “
At the DMpc’s suggestion we went back to town, rested for a couple of days to regain our lost levels (The DM didn’t have us make Ft. saves, I think because they were starting out). We were free to do what we wanted. One of the inn’s waitresses found my paladin to her liking. Apart from consulting the local priest of Lothian concerning the weakness of vampires, and to buy holy water, healing potions, garlic, mirrors, and stakes,
My paladin didn’t leave his room much.
The rest of the group found the local teenage drinking hangout, and did what teenagers do.
After a couple of days we went back into the mausoleum. We went back to examine the coffin. The DMs npc thief, asked me to go and check out some Runes in anther room, which we had been in so we could compare, them to the Runes around sarcophagus. My paladin followed him. He used his sense motive skill to figure out the rouge was up to something more then “comparing runes” He loosened his bastard sword in his scabbard and followed. While comparing runes, the rogue talking about how one of the PCs, (the one who had been talking about killing my character, the Archer fighter) was a loose cannon and might need to be dealt with, if the time came the rogue asked would you be willing to help me? My paladin curtly informed the rogue, that he finished fights, that he didn’t start them. With that we headed back.
Meanwhile in the Sarcophagus room, another NPC happened upon the party. He was a swashbuckler of some sort and a childhood friend of the Archer pc. After being coaxed into looking through the window at the top of the sarcophagus to see the vampire, the archer brought his down upon the back of his friends neck, killing him. The blow traveled through his friend and landed on the window of the sarcophagus cracking it, and some gas began escaping.
The rogue and my paladin returned to find this grisly scene. My paladin asked what happened here. The kid playing the archer replied “ I killed him because he was annoying me” My paladin’s response was “Really? “ turning to another player in the room he asked, “ So what happened here?” At that point the DM jumped in and told the kid, you don’t want to say that to the paladin, make something up like, the glass cracked in the fight, and the vampire came out of the coffin all misty then it killed my friend. “ The dm had him roll a bluff check. The kid rolled a 20 to my 2. My + 10 sense motive didn’t help me much there. With rolls like that I decided my paladin believed him. We didn’t have time to do much arguing because the vampire formed and we had a fight on our hands. After killing him. (Some of us lost levels) we brought his body and the body of the archer’s friend into the town to be burned.
A couple of days were spent recuperating lost levels; we went back in and faced some carrion crawlers, and then 5 trolls. The fights were touch and go. They were fun.
So now our initial job is over, and I have informed the party that I am returning to Ptolas.
I find I have little reason to want to stick with the group, let alone my paladin. We shall see what happens next weekend.
Hey Brandon how are you? It’s great to hear from you. I hope you and your wife are doing well. And yes “that’s so gay “ five times. Teenagers.
You have got things Pegged. It is the Game night on Saturday at Toy City. Rob is DMing a Ptolas game. Danny, whom you might remember as one of the kids bouncing off the walls, the blond skinny one, is now Dming. From the laugher coming from the game room, it sounds like he is doing a good job. And his players are having a good time.
Thanks Brandon the school counselor idea might be a good one. I think I may keep my advice to tactical combat advice, and lead by doing not telling. My paladin knows that three of the five people in the group are now evil. If the group breaks up it does. There was another poster who mentioned that there was an organization whose goal was to rehabilitate evil creatures. I might want to look into that.
Again thanks everyone for their thoughts.
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Man, that sounds like it sucked bad -- you do a remarkable job not venting.
Did you guys have any metagame conversation before the session?
If you want to run that Paladin you should be able to run that Paladin without having a PC stab you in the back. Assert this to the DM, vehemently if needed.
Really, your group ought to talk about this. You guys can come up with a couple reasons for your PCs not to go against each other despite their alignments.
One of the things the DM can do is make sure the NPCs are so powerful that the PCs have to work together in order to merely survive -- just make sure the NPCs want nothing to do with treacherous PCs. In other words, make it obvious that if a PC tries to betray the other PCs and join the NPCs that the NPCs will kill the traitor, too.
As DM, assuming I couldn't ask the offending Player to leave the game for whatever reason, I would award a significant XP penalty to the PC betraying another PC (in a friggin vampire's mausoleum! no less). Perhaps 1/5 his total XP!
This can ruin the entire gaming group, not to mention the campaign. And unfortunately, you changing your PC to suit them will actually not solve the problem. Likely, it will get worse.
-W. E. Ray
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Thank you for your thoughts Molech. I suppose I am a bit irritated at my friend for choosing to play a chaotic evil character after I told him that I was planning to play a paladin. He did tell me it was a random choice, but at the end of character creation, I wasn’t exactly hiding what I had made. I told people I was making a paladin. I suppose now that a precious poster, a friend, has picked out the who (Rob) and where Toy city, I may as well use names to keep things strait. I was simply trying to avoid using names for the sake of my friends’ privacy. Molech you are right I should be able to play a paladin if I want to. The only requirement is that the other party members are not of evil alignment.
That is not allot to ask.
The LE CE and NE alignments are for the most part not really conducive cooperative way in which the typical adventuring party works together, and traditionally shares the earnings evenly, and giving to those party members items that would be most useful to them. Oh I’m going to ad in the CN alignment to that list. That is the usually the "I’m going to play NE selfish, but can’t so I’ll just do the CN selfish and claim I’m doing things randomly."
But the DM for the large part sets the tone of the adventure. The tone is set even more so if they have a “DM PC “ along. Rob has a CE Rogue. Rob and I started our characters in another game, which unexpectedly grew, and we split off. Perhaps one possible solution would be for me to make another character, and keep it in the wings in case the paladin gets knifed while he sleeps.
Rob has suggested that the other new players, whom we helped make fighter characters for, could maybe give some other character classes a try.
If next weekend they are making new characters, then that might be a time to bring up the alignment issue.
I could simply leave. I’m not really having a good time. I could migrate over to the other table in the gaming store, and see if someone is willing to switch. Or I could continue. However I don’t like to have to separate player from character knowledge.
I don’t mind, say, having my character know that garlic mirrors stakes and holy symbols are harmful to vampires, but not know that silver and running water and sunlight are also harmful. I don’t mind my paladin not knowing what every D&D player knows, fire and acid permanently kills trolls and stops their regeneration. My paladin was practically torn limb from limb. Yes surprisingly the other players provided critical help with their healing belts. These new players didn’t know about troll’s weakness to fire, and I wasn’t about to deprive them of the fun of figuring something like that out.
What I do mind however, is knowing that Rob’s CE DM PC thief is “ involved” in the “disappearance” of a couple of teenage girls that the group partied with. I think a sacrifice was involved. I do mind knowing that one of these players had his character commit cold blooded murder, and then fooled my character into thinking it was the vampire’s fault, and because of die rolls I have to go along with the fib the DM provided, and the player could not.
While our characters have been together, they have fought together, and apart from the “sleeping “ paladin incident that luckily didn’t happen, have generally supported each other, dragging one another out of harms way. Nothing reprehensible has been done in the paladin’s presence.
I don’t feel that my paladin can go off on another PC with out cause. “ He detects as evil” I don’t think is sufficient provocation to go for weapons. The other players’ characters’ are not bound by well shall we say a quaint thing like morals.
Our next stop is Ptolas, where we will get our magic items identified, and divide our loot. Once we get Ptolas and our loot is devided up, these other “characters” are no longer my paladin’s employees. He doesn’t have to associate with them if he doesn’t want to.
I suppose I simply have to ask what the rest of the group wants to do, and if they want to have an “evil “ themed game. IF that is the case, I need to decide should I stay or should I go.
I expect in an evil party, will only have myself to rely on. Which character class would have the best chance of surviving some party back stabbing? Which character is the most self reliant?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Honestly, if you want an evil party that gets the job done, survives, and generally enjoys themselves, run them like a bunch of mafiosos, the LE types with a bunch of ties about kinship and loyalty and not turning your back on your friends--and if you do catch some weird backstabbing psycho, dissolve him a vat of acid so no one can ever resurrect him.
After years of situations like this, I've come with a (quite draconian) way of handling my groups (inspired by the ideas of a friend of mine): no matter what your Alignment is, no matter what is written of your Character sheet, what your background is, what your character wants, what your character would do, YOUR GROUP HAS TO STICK TOGETHER.
Yep, that's right. You can be Chaotic Evil to the core, if you are in a group you are LAWFUL GOOD towards the group. No excuses admitted.
With this ways of playing, my groups last WAY more than before.
After all, a Role-Playing Game is a cooperative game. Want to be the Drama Queen ('Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah! The Paladin is so friggin' stupid I can do what I want and if he bores me I will kill him in the sleep and take all his stuff') ? Good, you can do it ALL ALONE BY YOURSELF. Go play with someone else.
I feel really sorry for you, ElyasRavenwood. Playing in that kind of environment is tiring, I imagine; I know that it is good to develop a character, his background, his way of acting - like if he is a flesh and blood person - (I'm speaking of the CE characters in this example, not your's), but if that means turning the good playing evening of someone else into a living hell, this is just plain stupid.
Forgive my harshness, all of you - I've had my fair share of similar experiences, too.
Just my 2c.
I expect in an evil party, will only have myself to rely on. Which character class would have the best chance of surviving some party back stabbing? Which character is the most self reliant?
The most self-reliant character? Probably cleric (or druid); possibly with some multi-classing and/or prestige class(es), depending on the available options. Animate dead and the various planar ally spells (or your Animal Companion) can provide you with loyal guards to watch your back in almost any circumstance. Self-buffing makes you a nasty combatant. Depending on your domains, you may have some pretty good battlefield spells. LE or NE alignments work better than CE for party cohesion.
One of my favorite 3.5 evil characters was a NE(L) half-orc cleric (Nerull)/thaumaturgist/master of shrouds (Libris Mortis). I played him as a mean, amoral SOB, but one that would work with others without betraying them on a whim. Generally, he had nothing against anyone, he just didn't really have any reason to be for them either, except as it suited his purposes. As long as they remained useful (either actively or potentially) or didn't hinder his goals, he'd help them or ignore them; if they threatened him (either directly or through inaction) or got in his way, that was a different story. He didn't walk around looking for a fight or overreact to petty insults. He also tended to have several contingency plans in place to protect himself and help make sure that he'd gain an advantage in almost any situation.
The problem a lot of groups have with evil characters is that many play evil as dumb as they play good. "Evil," to these players, means they can act as an immature brat and screw over everyone else in the world, without thinking about (or thinking they can avoid) the consequences; they're PCs after all, the world revolves around them.
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My friend (is) choosing to play a chaotic evil character after I told him that I was planning to play a paladin.
He's allowed.
It is his prerogative to play CE as much as it is yours to play LG. Sure, as DM I talk to my Players about these choices before the beginning of the campaign and it is the responsibility of the evil PC to come up with an equitable reason for gaming with the LG PC. But that's just me (and what I recommend to others).
Ultimately, it's not the PC alignments that ruin games. It's the Players.
Remember I said that if you throw away your LG PC it won't fix things -- this is why! It is how the PCs are played. And while some groups, especially more experienced ones, can enjoy PC conflicts and make them work in-game, it is precisely that that ruins many games.
PCs fighting each other is bad.
-W. E. Ray
I tried to read most of the posts here (try being the key word, to the OPer, you need more white space in your posts, not just huge blocks of text).
There appear to be some misconceptions about paladins. The idea that paladins can't adventure with evil character has no teeth. Notice:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
The associates' entry is separate from the code, it is not part of the code. A paladin falls for:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities.
Nothing in there about adventuring with evil beings. The only real restriction on the paladin for who he adventures with deals with the Leadership Feat (his cohort and followers). So big deal if the other guy as CE, as long as he focuses his efforts on evil folk and non-innocents (such as "CN" folk who are really "CE"), he can actually be a very effective ally to the paladin.
Sure there may well (and probably should be) differences between the two, but there is no reason such should come to blows. In fact the CE guy asking the paladin if he'll back him up if the archer guy needs to be removed sounds like great roleplaying to me.
Ultimately, it's not the PC alignments that ruin games. It's the Players.
... that pick the alignments that ruin games. :)
joe b.
Part of party unity is a willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the players. There are a great many characters who would never in a million years want to associate with some of the loons they find themselves cooped up with, but they do, because their players put them in this position.
Playing your character as CE is fine so long as you give the other players the same courtesy they showed you by making their characters stay in a party with yours. You don't kill them, you don't steal their stuff, and you don't go out of your way to violate their personal taboos.
I mean, look at this scenario:
Your party is going through a dungeon and you find a maiden chained to a sacrificial altar. Do you:
A. Rescue her and take her back to town.
B. Ask her for information about the dungeon, and if she gives an answer to your satisfaction, unlock her and leave her to her own devices.
C. Ravage her and leave her for the next lucky adventurer.
D. Sacrifice her to the god of your choice.
E. Sprinkle her with herbs and spices and roast to taste with Burning Hands. Mmm, bacon!
If you suddenly rush in and do C, D or E, you should reasonably expect that characters who would chose option A would strenuously object, and even those who would chose B would think you're being selfish and stupid.
If you want to do a bit of sensible roleplaying and you're a CE, NE or LE character with a brain as well as some reason for associating with the LG paladin, you let him go ahead and do A and shrug or roll your eyes about it. Or if you want to be more nasty and sensible, when you're divvying up the loot, simply declare all virgin sacrifices to be part of party treasure and the maidens Mr. Paladin rescues come out of his share of party treasure.
Or you could just create a party that gets along and save the bother.
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Teenage boys who insist on playing CE psychopaths is one thing...I think an important issue here is that Rob is running a CE DMPC.
Especially for players that look towards the DM to reinforce and guide their decisions, this can be a problem. The DM has to be very careful. If he does it right, he can show the players the right way to play an evil rogue in a party.
If he does it wrong, he can end up reinforcing the bad habits of the players...
With the job done, and the other PCs not being employed by you anymore, it is a good opportunity to change characters (either yours or theirs). I highly recommend that idea of giving the kids an opportunity to make new non-fighter characters now that they have the hang of the system.
I'm sorry to hear that you're not really enjoying yourself, Myles. I'm about to be laid off, which makes me available on Saturday evenings...I'm half tempted to start a new game over at Toy City...
My Friday game has one player who consistently plays CN types (on the verge of CE). My wife consistently plays LG types. We don't have any problems since she's refused to heal up those who piss her off.
Perhaps your paladin could recruit a clerical cohort to give the party some healing punch. "I'm sorry, Mr. 3 HP CE jerk, but I find your behavior... troubling. I must commune with my god before I decide whether healing you is a good idea."
A more subtle approach would be to keep the paladin between the cleric and the "unsavory" types that make him uncomfortable. Who can blame him if he's too far away to heal wounded psychopaths? This is even more effective if you armor him in full plate and encumber him. "Fuggleworth the Halfling Healer only moves 10 feet per round..."
Survival of the morally fit...
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Honestly, if you want an evil party that gets the job done, survives, and generally enjoys themselves, run them like a bunch of mafiosos, the LE types with a bunch of ties about kinship and loyalty and not turning your back on your friends--and if you do catch some weird backstabbing psycho, dissolve him a vat of acid so no one can ever resurrect him.
Kevin Andrew Murphy thank you for the Mafioso suggestion. It is an excellent one. A couple of years ago, I ran an “evil” campaign for about six months. We were all adults, and we all had allot of fun. Everyone was an aristocrat, and part of the same extended family. They were all cousins. Their grandfather held the seat of the duchy, and one of their uncles was their minder as they did jobs for the family. Yes in modern terms the family would be Mafia. However I chose to play a paladin, and don’t particularly want to play in an evil party. Why is my choice to want to play a LG character any less valid then someone else's choice to want to play an evil character? At this particular gaming table, this seems to be the case. My paladin has not gone off and smited any of the other characters because they detect as evil, nor has he told them what to believe nor how to behave. He has only made tactical suggestions during combat. And yes he has been a little curt with the thief. They have traded barbs the whole way along.
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After years of situations like this, I've come with a (quite draconian) way of handling my groups (inspired by the ideas of a friend of mine): no matter what your Alignment is, no matter what is written of your Character sheet, what your background is, what your character wants, what your character would do, YOUR GROUP HAS TO STICK TOGETHER.
Yep, that's right. You can be Chaotic Evil to the core, if you are in a group you are LAWFUL GOOD towards the group. No excuses admitted.
With this ways of playing, my groups last WAY more than before.
After all, a Role-Playing Game is a cooperative game. Want to be the Drama Queen ('Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah! The Paladin is so friggin' stupid I can do what I want and if he bores me I will kill him in the sleep and take all his stuff') ? Good, you can do it ALL ALONE BY YOURSELF. Go play with someone else.I feel really sorry for you, ElyasRavenwood. Playing in that kind of environment is tiring, I imagine; I know that it is good to develop a character, his background, his way of acting - like if he is a flesh and blood person - (I'm speaking of the CE characters in this example, not your's), but if that means turning the good playing evening of someone else into a living hell, this is just plain stupid.
Forgive my harshness, all of you - I've had my fair share of similar experiences, too.
Just my 2c.
The Wraith, I think what you say makes sense, however, because the games are in a semi public place open to whom ever wants to come, I think Rob may booting ability may be limited to someone being destructive to the merchandise in the store.
Thank you for your kind words.|
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I expect in an evil party, will only have myself to rely on. Which character class would have the best chance of surviving some party back stabbing? Which character is the most self reliant?The most self-reliant character? Probably cleric (or druid); possibly with some multi-classing and/or prestige class(es), depending on the available options. Animate dead and the various planar ally spells (or your Animal Companion) can provide you with loyal guards to watch your back in almost any circumstance. Self-buffing makes you a nasty combatant. Depending on your domains, you may have some pretty good battlefield spells. LE or NE alignments work better than CE for party cohesion.
One of my favorite 3.5 evil characters was a NE(L) half-orc cleric (Nerull)/thaumaturgist/master of shrouds (Libris Mortis). I played him as a mean, amoral SOB, but one that would work with others without betraying them on a whim. Generally, he had nothing against anyone, he just didn't really have any reason to be for them either, except as it suited his purposes. As long as they remained useful (either actively or potentially) or didn't hinder his goals, he'd help them or ignore them; if they threatened him (either directly or through inaction) or got in his way, that was a different story. He didn't walk around looking for a fight or overreact to petty insults. He also tended to have several contingency plans in place to protect himself and help make sure that he'd gain an advantage in almost any situation.
The problem a lot of groups have with evil characters is that many play evil as dumb as they play good. "Evil," to these players, means they can act as an immature brat and screw over everyone else in the world, without thinking about (or thinking they can avoid) the consequences; they're PCs after all, the world revolves around them.
Dragons chess player, thank you, for your thoughts. Your suggestion of creating an evil character is an excellent idea That is a great idea. It makes perfect sense. I often pick an evil cleric to be the mastermind and party’s nemesis, because of their combat capability, and their access to spells. I had not thought that people could play evil characters as stupidly as they play good characters. I suppose I should just open my eyes and watch the players around me.
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My friend (is) choosing to play a chaotic evil character after I told him that I was planning to play a paladin.He's allowed.
It is his prerogative to play CE as much as it is yours to play LG. Sure, as DM I talk to my Players about these choices before the beginning of the campaign and it is the responsibility of the evil PC to come up with an equitable reason for gaming with the LG PC. But that's just me (and what I recommend to others).
Ultimately, it's not the PC alignments that ruin games. It's the Players.
** spoiler omitted **
Remember I said that if you throw away your LG PC it won't fix things -- this is why! It is how the PCs are played. And while some groups, especially more experienced ones, can enjoy PC conflicts and make them work in-game, it is precisely that that ruins many games.PCs fighting each other is bad.
-W. E. Ray
Molech true, he has just as much a right to play a CE character as I have playing a LG one. I think it is a different ball of wax now that he has shifted from player to DM and he has kept what was originally, although briefly, his PC is now what some people would call a DM pc. I think this has helped set the tone of the game. At the risk of asking a stupid question, what would be an example of a player ruining the game, as appose to character alignment? So even if I toss my paladin and say make an evil cleric, I will still be just as irritated, and possibly more so?
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I tried to read most of the posts here (try being the key word, to the OPer, you need more white space in your posts, not just huge blocks of text).
There appear to be some misconceptions about paladins. The idea that paladins can't adventure with evil character has no teeth. Notice:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.The associates' entry is separate from the code, it is not part of the code. A paladin falls for:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities.Nothing in there about adventuring with evil beings. The only real restriction on the paladin for who he adventures with deals with the Leadership Feat (his cohort and followers). So big deal if the other guy as CE, as long as he focuses his efforts on evil folk and non-innocents (such as "CN" folk who are really "CE"), he can actually be a very effective ally to the paladin.
Sure there may well (and probably should be) differences between the two, but there is no reason such should come to blows. In fact the CE guy asking the paladin if he'll back him up if the archer guy needs to be removed sounds like great roleplaying to me.
Pressman, while I agree, I probably missed a role-playing opportunity and possible thaw with the thief, and maybe my paladin’s suspicions got the better of him. My paladin didn’t want to be used by the thief as his instrument to remove offensive party members.
And while it may be possible for us to become allies, we both will have to get over our mistrust of each other. Perhaps there is nothing in the text saying a paladin cant adventure with evil characters, the text does say that a paladin will never willingly associate with evil characters nor continue to associate with them. I see adventuring as associating.|
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Part of party unity is a willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the players. There are a great many characters who would never in a million years want to associate with some of the loons they find themselves cooped up with, but they do, because their players put them in this position.
Playing your character as CE is fine so long as you give the other players the same courtesy they showed you by making their characters stay in a party with yours. You don't kill them, you don't steal their stuff, and you don't go out of your way to violate their personal taboos.
I mean, look at this scenario:
Your party is going through a dungeon and you find a maiden chained to a sacrificial altar. Do you:
A. Rescue her and take her back to town.
B. Ask her for information about the dungeon, and if she gives an answer to your satisfaction, unlock her and leave her to her own devices.
C. Ravage her and leave her for the next lucky adventurer.
D. Sacrifice her to the god of your choice.
E. Sprinkle her with herbs and spices and roast to taste with Burning Hands. Mmm, bacon!If you suddenly rush in and do C, D or E, you should reasonably expect that characters who would chose option A would strenuously object, and even those who would chose B would think you're being selfish and stupid.
If you want to do a bit of sensible roleplaying and you're a CE, NE or LE character with a brain as well as some reason for associating with the LG paladin, you let him go ahead and do A and shrug or roll your eyes about it. Or if you want to be more nasty and sensible, when you're divvying up the loot, simply declare all virgin sacrifices to be part of party treasure and the maidens Mr. Paladin rescues come out of his share of party treasure.
Or you could just create a party that gets along and save the bother.
Kevin Andrew Murphey yes there is suspension of disbelief; my paladin is penned in with a bunch of loons. Loons with teeth unfortunately. And you make excellent suggestions about how a CE character might want to keep his predilections a private matter and get along with the character with a good alignment.
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Teenage boys who insist on playing CE psychopaths is one thing...I think an important issue here is that Rob is running a CE DMPC.
Especially for players that look towards the DM to reinforce and guide their decisions, this can be a problem. The DM has to be very careful. If he does it right, he can show the players the right way to play an evil rogue in a party.
If he does it wrong, he can end up reinforcing the bad habits of the players...With the job done, and the other PCs not being employed by you anymore, it is a good opportunity to change characters (either yours or theirs). I highly recommend that idea of giving the kids an opportunity to make new non-fighter characters now that they have the hang of the system.
I'm sorry to hear that you're not really enjoying yourself, Myles. I'm about to be laid off, which makes me available on Saturday evenings...I'm half tempted to start a new game over at Toy City...
Jagyr Ebonwood, I think you have hit the nail on the head. Especially about Rob setting the tone of the game, and the new players taking their cues from him.
I think this Saturday would be an excellent time for the kids to make their own characters, and to discuss the importance of alignment and which direction the group wants to go. After selling the loot, my character can then terminate his employment agreement with these characters. I think that if the other players make new characters, I can continue playing my paladin, but if they keep their old characters, or create new characters with evil alignments, then I will just retire the paladin, and make a new character myself.For me another option would be to move tables. I cold simply say that I am not enjoying myself, I would like to continue playing this paladin, and since the rest of the group wants to go in another direction, I am simply going to migrate to another table, this way we both will be free to choose our paths.
If the rest of the players decides to go the evil rout, and I make another character, I have been tossing around a couple of ideas 1) I liked dragons chess player’s idea a half-orc evil cleric, perhaps with the death and destruction domains? Or another idea might be a Human dread necromancer, with the Tomb tainted soul feat (negative energy heals, positive harms) Tomb tainted vitality ( no need to eat, drink or sleep, yeah paranoia) and then the profane life leach spell (spend two of your rebuke attempts to deal 1d6 points of negative energy damage to all creatures within a 30’ burst and you heal damage equal to the total number of hit points that you drain). Hmm, how would a human get his hands on permanent dark vision? I got the feats from Liber Mortis. Which should I choose? I wonder.
Brandon I am sorry to hear that you are about to be laid off. If you do find yourself free on Saturday nights, I would be happy to see you back at the gaming table as another PC or DM. I know with gas prices inching up, I would be happy to carpool with you from Brattleboro over to Keene if that would help make things easier for you.
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My Friday game has one player who consistently plays CN types (on the verge of CE). My wife consistently plays LG types. We don't have any problems since she's refused to heal up those who piss her off.
Perhaps your paladin could recruit a clerical cohort to give the party some healing punch. "I'm sorry, Mr. 3 HP CE jerk, but I find your behavior... troubling. I must commune with my god before I decide whether healing you is a good idea."
A more subtle approach would be to keep the paladin between the cleric and the "unsavory" types that make him uncomfortable. Who can blame him if he's too far away to heal wounded psychopaths? This is even more effective if you armor him in full plate and encumber him. "Fuggleworth the Halfling Healer only moves 10 feet per round..."
Survival of the morally fit...
Well Sir Wulf, that is an excellent suggestion. In the game where we created our characters, the Dm (another guy) made a LG female cleric of Lothian. Perhaps the beginnings of a paladin cleric relationship were forming. In our first few battles against some Minotaur, my paladin stuck within 15’ of the cleric, and intercepted the approaching Minotaur when they headed for the cleric. When it came time to stay in the in, and everyone was getting rooms, being the only female character in the group she asked my character if he would mind sharing a room, because she was worried about her honor.