... suck.
With no con score, they only get 2 rage points per hit die, which is just woefully inadequate. And that's only if you use the "treat it as a 10 if you have to figure their Con for something" interpretation instead of the "treat it as a 0 if you have to figure their Con for something" interpretation, in which case they'd have 0 rage points no matter how many HD they had.
Can we get a clause somewhere in the Undead type description that lets them use their Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution modifier? That solves the problem of undead hit points, too, so it's a useful addition even if the current rage system ends up getting scrapped.
That's a good question. I've been wondering about that as well, but had forgotten about it.
Thanks for asking because I woudn't have remembered to.
Can we get a clause somewhere in the Undead type description that lets them use their Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution modifier? That solves the problem of undead hit points, too, so it's a useful addition even if the current rage system ends up getting scrapped.
This was partly already done in the Beta Rules.
Page 296:
"Step 6: Other Statistics (...)
(...)Note that undead use their Charisma bonus in place of their Constitution bonus when determining hit points (although skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead should have their Charisma scores set to 10)."
Although I agree that this could be extended to all applications of Constitution, as well (for example, Fortitude Saves and Rage points).
... suck.
With no con score, they only get 2 rage points per hit die, which is just woefully inadequate.
On the bright side, though, they never get fatigued. So they can turn rage on and off whenever they want.
Seriously, how many undead barbarians do you have in your game?
I've always thought of barbarian rage as an emotional power derived from the life force of the barbarian. An undead barbarian would be poor at it.
OTOH, hate/anger/rage may be the only emotions left to a particular undead, that has been stripped of all other vestiges of life. In which case the charisma driven rage would be a suitable replacement for the constitution driven rage. The hit die modifier for charisma is a good precedent.
I've always thought of barbarian rage as an emotional power derived from the life force of the barbarian. An undead barbarian would be poor at it.
I always assumed barbarian rage was an adrenaline rush. No adrenaline (or blood, for that matter) limits the amount of rush you can get.
I had a skeleton barbarian in my pathfinder game. What we did was to eliminate bonus hp, set the rage duration, and eliminate the point cost for being in a rage. It worked pretty well, because he had massive strength and DR but terrible hp, so he ended up being pretty balanced. Since he didn't get morale bonuses to will saves, his save sucked... which is bad if you're the target of a control attempt.
... suck.
With no con score, they only get 2 rage points per hit die, which is just woefully inadequate.
It's better than you suppose.
Better, because the Alternate Barbarian Rage posted by Jason (in this thread)only gives the Con bonus at first level, and the Rage powers no longer take points, they are usable at will or once per minute (for most powers). So after first level *all* the barbarians are only getting 2 per hit die.
Also, this is much better than 3.5 because the Str and Con bonuses were morale bonuses in 3.5 (no longer per the Beta) and Undead don't get morale bonuses.
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Also, this is much better than 3.5 because the Str and Con bonuses were morale bonuses in 3.5 (no longer per the Beta) and Undead don't get morale bonuses.
Um... no. Only the bonus to Will saves is morale. The STR/CON bonuses are untyped.
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).
... suck.
With no con score, they only get 2 rage points per hit die, which is just woefully inadequate.
On the bright side, though, they never get fatigued. So they can turn rage on and off whenever they want.
Seriously, how many undead barbarians do you have in your game?
In D4: hungry are the dead there is an undead barbarian.
Although My PCs killed it before It could rage (they got a suprise round on it and then beat it on inititive)
This was partly already done in the Beta Rules.
Page 296:
"Step 6: Other Statistics (...)
(...)Note that undead use their Charisma bonus in place of their Constitution bonus when determining hit points (although skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead should have their Charisma scores set to 10)."Although I agree that this could be extended to all applications of Constitution, as well (for example, Fortitude Saves and Rage points).
Ahh, thank you for pointing that out to me. It's an easy enough extension that I doubt I'll have any problem getting that vetted for my games even if Paizo doesn't do it. Not that I play undead barbarians very often - this actually came up because I was messing around with crazy gestalt combinations (for fun, mostly, although my group plays with gestalt characters almost exclusively) and was working on a barbarian//dread necromancer. Dread necros become liches at level 20, and I realized that was a huge disadvantage to a barbarian.
I could definitely see vampiric barbarians, though, and frozen mummy barbarians too (neanderthal entombed in the ice?), so it's not like it's a totally academic discussion.
I could definitely see vampiric barbarians, though, and frozen mummy barbarians too (neanderthal entombed in the ice?), so it's not like it's a totally academic discussion.
Yes, one of the things I really hated from Undead in 3.x was their low amount of hit points. Sure, they had immunities, damage reduction, some even incorporeality, but let's face it - a Vampire Fighter had HALF the hp of a Fighter of the same level. Fast healing and damage reduction do not help you a lot when a couple of Fireballs kill you outright - or make you a cloud of smoke that tries to reach his coffin before it's too late (and frankly, more often than not, never reached it, UNLESS they had it buried just around the corner).
Now, a Vampire Fighter or a Lich Sorcerer are SCARY and TOUGH - they deserved it, IMHO...
OTOH, hate/anger/rage may be the only emotions left to a particular undead, that has been stripped of all other vestiges of life. In which case the charisma driven rage would be a suitable replacement for the constitution driven rage. The hit die modifier for charisma is a good precedent.
Woah... I'm hit by a 60-tonnes-truck of inspirations.
It opens up whole new themes for my campaign world. Much thanks for that. ^^| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can we get a clause somewhere in the Undead type description that lets them use their Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution modifier?
You will, don't worry. :)
Can we get a clause somewhere in the Undead type description that lets them use their Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution modifier?You will, don't worry. :)
I think a "Yay!" is in order lol.
Can we get a clause somewhere in the Undead type description that lets them use their Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution modifier?You will, don't worry. :)
Excellent! Thank you.
Also, this is much better than 3.5 because the Str and Con bonuses were morale bonuses in 3.5 (no longer per the Beta) and Undead don't get morale bonuses.Um... no. Only the bonus to Will saves is morale. The STR/CON bonuses are untyped.
Duh... huh.. Thanks Fatey.
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Duh... huh.. Thanks Fatey.Also, this is much better than 3.5 because the Str and Con bonuses were morale bonuses in 3.5 (no longer per the Beta) and Undead don't get morale bonuses.Um... no. Only the bonus to Will saves is morale. The STR/CON bonuses are untyped.
;)
One of the coolest things about Rage is that the stat bonuses are untyped, which means you can stack it with anything. This makes barbarian/cleric characters especially nasty with righteous might.