What have the tanar'i and baatezu been renamed?
How about obyrith, or did the daemons create the tanar'i?
What have the tanar'i and baatezu been renamed?
How about obyrith, or did the daemons create the tanar'i?
As in the SRD - demons and devils. Tanar'ri, baatezu, and obyrith are closed terms belonging to WotC.
Ah, just wondering, I wasn't sure after reading a todd stewart interview if they had names that I'd missed.
I'm glad of it.
Creative Director
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What have the tanar'i and baatezu been renamed?
How about obyrith, or did the daemons create the tanar'i?
Those names are mostly not open content, so we've pretty much just thrown the names out and are back to 1st edition theory here.
Tanar'ri are now called demons.
Baatezu are now called devils.
Our version of the obyrith are known as qlippoth. The qlippoth are based on the same real-world mythology and inspiration as were the obyriths, but the qlippoth have the advantage of being a name that exists in mythology. Erik Mona first translated the idea of the qlippoth into game terms in Green Ronin's "Armies of the Abyss," later recompiled as part of their "Book of Fiends." It's those guys we're going to be using in the Pathfinder RPG, since the qlippoths are open content. But for those at home, qlippoths and obyriths are more or less interchangable; that's how I envisioned them being, at least.
In Golarion, the qlippoths (the primal chaotic evil outsiders) were first. Devils came second. Daemons came third. Demons came last. Some demons evolved out of qlippoths, some spontaneously formed, and some were engineered by the daemons, but all demons basically come back to one unique source—they're what happens when you add "mortal soul" into the mix of ingredients in the Abyss.
That's at least how I understand things now. We're still sort of ironing things out to a certain extent.
Cool, I was thinking of the qlippoths actually. Their pretty awesome progenitor demons!
Really like some of the Book of Fiends stuff on them.
As a matter of interest, will there be any illustrations of daemons in the guide to the multiverse coming up, dying to get the book and I'm hoping that my favourite new outsiders are visually represented, at least the purrodaemon, which I'm finding hard to nail down as a concrete image, obviously no stats this close to the PFRPG release.
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Creative Director
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Cool, I was thinking of the qlippoths actually. Their pretty awesome progenitor demons!
Really like some of the Book of Fiends stuff on them.
As a matter of interest, will there be any illustrations of daemons in the guide to the multiverse coming up, dying to get the book and I'm hoping that my favourite new outsiders are visually represented, at least the purrodaemon, which I'm finding hard to nail down as a concrete image, obviously no stats this close to the PFRPG release.
There will be quite a bit about the daemons in "The Great Beyond," yes.
I <3 qlippoths.
That said, I just finished writing a little bit about them too, and planar mythology of questionable sourcing and accuracy is awesome.
Yay, really liked the great beyond in the campaign setting, it truly inspird me, and I love the planes and outsiders anyway, there my pick fantasy kick like some people have undead, or say dinosaurs.
I'm really really enjoying whats been done so far, and am hovering my mouse over the order button for the great beyond!
Any other description for the purrodaemon floating around? Its and ash formed humanoid with crocodile and hyena features?
How monstrous or are they more isolated things like ears and a crocodile tail?
If you don't mind me asking. I'm just a man possessed.
Any other description for the purrodaemon floating around? Its and ash formed humanoid with crocodile and hyena features?How monstrous or are they more isolated things like ears and a crocodile tail?
If you don't mind me asking. I'm just a man possessed.
When I initially wrote them up, I was heavily riffing off of the concept of Ammut from Egyptian mythology (aka the Eater of Hearts / Devourer of Millions / Greatness of Death). If you used a version of Ammut in a game set in Osirion, perhaps that mythology might be derived from a warped notion of the purrodaemons (quite possible given two instances in Osirion's history). Of course, it's also plausible that the daemons of Abbadon might intentionally model themselves (or one caste of deacons in this case) upon a concept already in the minds of mortals to hijack a mythos for their own benefit.
Wow! Awesome! Are they bipedal versions with hands or more similar to original depictions?
Though, you've already gone above and beyond! I didnt expect so much already.
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Creative Director
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There will be a obyrith replacement ? And it will be the qlippoths ?[/quote
Yes.The weird thing is, of course, that I invented the obyriths in the first place as a qlippoth replacement, since I couldn't directly expand on what Erik had done with the qlippoth in Book of Fiends because the Fiendish Codex I was not an open content book (and therefore couldn't use material from Book of Fiends without itself being open). And so now, here we are back on the other side of the fence, and we're back to the qlippoth that started it all.
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I'm a bit sad that Sibriexes can't make it over.
I'm not sure how I feel about daemons having a hand in the creation of demons(strangely, didn't have this problem when a similar riff was used with the yugoloths possibly creating the tanar'ri and baatezu), but I love the idea of them being hoisted by their own petard when the demons (probably?) exploded in population and turned out to not be team-players(with the exception of sometimes working with devils and celestials against daemons - I loved that detail).
That's at least how I understand things now. We're still sort of ironing things out to a certain extent.
Not that I need to tell you or Mr. Stewart this,
but being a rabid Planescape fan I feel the need to ask that you not "iron things out" too much for The Great Beyond. Contradictions and alternate explanations should abound, since characters never ought to encounter someone who was present for the creation of these races. The lack of definitive accounts of anything was one of the great gems in Planescape.
Then again, I'm pretty sure you have a handle on that.
Contradictions and alternate explanations should abound, since characters never ought to encounter someone who was present for the creation of these races. The lack of definitive accounts of anything was one of the great gems in Planescape.
Then again, I'm pretty sure you have a handle on that.
Don't worry. One thing I explore in something I worked on recently is openly contradicted in-character in another book. Multiple conflicting viewpoints, some of them mutually exclusive, are fun things, especially in creation mythology.
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The weird thing is, of course, that I invented the obyriths in the first place as a qlippoth replacement, since I couldn't directly expand on what Erik had done with the qlippoth in Book of Fiends because the Fiendish Codex I was not an open content book (and therefore couldn't use material from Book of Fiends without itself being open). And so now, here we are back on the other side of the fence, and we're back to the qlippoth that started it all.
This one made me chuckle. So, Erik got it his way in the end :)
While we're on the subject, what were the baernoloths going to be, and do they have a Pathfinder equivalent?
While we're on the subject, what were the baernoloths going to be, and do they have a Pathfinder equivalent?
Very different genesis for the fiends in the Paizoverse compared to the Great Wheel. The Great Wheel had the baernaloths as the original fiends, and they subsequently created the yugoloths, obyriths, and ancient baatorians to seed into what would become the other lower planes.
Golarion's cosmos may or may not possess the same sort of primal evil that the baernaloths represent. Without going into details not yet published (since fiendish origins, or possible origins will be explored in potentially two or more places in 2009) the daemons for instance are among the youngest of the fiends, sort of precluding a status as elder creatures like the baernaloths. The qlippoth (proto-demons) came first, and unless you want to speculate on it beyond what's been said so far, they were derived from the proteans of the Maelstrom. Is there a niche for something like the baern then?
Maybe. Expect some obscure or not so obscure touches on the topic, but nothing said outright one way or the other. Of course, regardless of something being true or not, the fiends might tell something rather different from historical fact, and they themselves might believe in a creation myth that might or might not be grounded in reality. There's a lot of open ended things in the creation myths of the planes, and different histories for some of the various sections of the planes like the inner sphere, outer sphere, material plane, etc. Plenty of room to explore, and nothing is hammered down yet to pin any subsequent authors down.
I adored the baernaloths within the mythos of the Great Wheel, but I took pains to avoid locking anything into their inclusion or not within Golarion's lower planes. Nothing necessarily excludes them either mind you (look for an easter egg or two, possibly obscure, if they survive the editing process).
I adored the baernaloths within the mythos of the Great Wheel, but I took pains to avoid locking anything into their inclusion or not within Golarion's lower planes. Nothing necessarily excludes them either mind you (look for an easter egg or two, possibly obscure, if they survive the editing process).
Part of my fevered anticipation of the Great Beyond is that it doesn't seem mutually exclusive to Planescape. My group has taken the view that they are, in fact, the same Multiverse, albeit separated by millions of years and a cataclysm the somehow dragged the Spire Gearward, and therefor altered the cosmology fundamentally. Other inconsistencies are readily explained by a combination of prime ignorance of cosmology and the sheer vastness of the infinite planes.
So... barring time travel, we don't plan to go back and forth. Still, it serves as a good boilerplate explanation for Planescape fans who want to recover some material. I can't wait for the Great Beyond, though.
Without giving everything out about the book, if one wanted to set up a planscapish scenario what would be a good location? How hard will it be to convert? Are there lots of lower plane diplomacy/war issues going on?
Once Colin's adventure comes out, you'll have a real good idea of the conversion potential and possibilities. I've had a chance to read over the text (it's awesome btw) and some of the sections could easily be placed into some of the planes from Planescape with little extra work on a DMs part. Some other areas might take some extra work, and they do make more sense within their original context, but there's nothing therein that's impossible to tweak for use elsewhere (be it in a homebrew campaign, a classical Planescape game, etc).
Generally speaking it shouldn't be too difficult to convert stuff, especially given some of the thematic similarity you might find between Golarion's Outer Sphere and the cardinal alignment planes from the Great Wheel. Some of the mixed alignment planes like Carceri might be slightly more difficult (but you could easily add it in as for instance a pocket of the Abyss, a section of Abbadon's unclaimed wastes, or a demiplane. I'd say more about the demodands with regard to a carceri conversion, but let's hold off till the book is out).