So it happened, and technically I should have seen it coming but, alas, I did not.
Anyway, I'm seeking advice as there is a slight problem in my group. Our parties Cleric has become rather powerful and normally this isn't a problem for me, I always thought that 100% game balance for for sissies as far as GMing goes (my beliefs that whatever the PC's can do bad guys can do too has often worked as a great counter when handled properly) but this is a different matter entirely next to my usual issues of encounters being too easy.
Basically the other PC's feel over shadowed by the guy. One of them has apparently been quoted saying "I don't come to game to be *players name* *explicative* sidekick." and, well, that's a problem. When a good half of the group aren't enjoying themselves then something is wrong.
Now much of this is my fault. The player has out damaged the fighter, out stealthed the rogue, out initiated everyone (though I think the rogue is actually better now and just rolls poorly, I'll have to check the character sheets), and while he hasn't out blasted the Evoker he's come close. He has, through the rules: summoned over a hundred celestials capable of casting Raise Dead and Hallow over the course of a week, teleported long before he should have via little loopholes. And is an all around bad ass. The scary thing is this isn't him trying, all of it has role playing elements behind it and he has worked for his abilities. He's written two packets to explain down time activities. Suffered ability damage for some of the cooler actions he's done, and sacrificed xp to summon those celestials. And all with good in character reasons.
The player himself is a freakish blending of a master Power Gamer and a good role player. He has the free time and the will to study the various books in the apartment and suffice to say the other players simply can't compete. Oh, and everything I mentioned was done during or before 9th level.
The other player involved in these issues it the player of the party's Wizard. Well, one of the parties two wizards, and in general is a good and solid gamer but has some personality quirks that are hard to ignore. Suffice to say it seems there's no satisfying him and he has been prone to sulking after a fashion during game when things don't go his way. This isn't saying the player of the cleric has an Angelic personality but it hasn't been an issue in game, well, not as persistent at least. The wizards irritation comes from the Cleric and a strong dislike for the lack of good loot in the adventures we've been running (Rise of the Runelords), he also dislikes how certain things make little sense (to him) throughout the module
and has been bringing the game down on many levels. At the same time he has also brought to light the issues two of the other players are having (these issues have been confirmed the Wizard is simply more the speaker than the other two) with certain aspects of the game as well as the Cleric.
Now I'm tired of tiptoeing through the tulips, of hearing all of these complaints from both sides, and I have issues of my own. The advice I'm seeking though is on the two players mentioned. We have one who is far too powerful and one who does a lot of complaining. There were issues with the magic items but ultimately that's an easy fix. I'm also to blame for some of the Clerics uber-mojo. I permitted him to build his cohort when he took the Leadership Feat which, while he had fairly altruistic designs with him he still got to customize the guy entirely which rubbed people the wrong way. One player, the Wizard in question above, wanted to take the Leadership Feat but lacked a good in character reason for it and was accused of trying to step on the clerics toes.
So the issues:
One character is so powerful he's killing the gaming buzz for half the group.
One player complains a little more than is comfortable and sulks which kills the mood.
They're both strong personalities and the better RPers of the group.
Any advice is welcome though I'd like to avoid anything involving kicking the players in question out. Quitting the game. Killing any of the characters. And please, I understand that it is my fault for permitting the powerful character to be as powerful as he is, I'd rather not have it ground into my face any more than it already has. Especially seeing as it wouldn't actually lend itself to helping solve the problem.
Any takers?
Cloistered Cleric 4, Warlock 1, Eldritch Disciple 6. Toss in some elements from Book of Exalted Deeds.
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The most obvious solution, but can be difficult in practice, is to talk to your players.
I had a player very similiar to your Cleric's player. I took him to one side, had a conversation concerning party roles, eg the rogue's job is to find the traps etc etc. He is now a lot better to play with. It is hard playing with someone who doesn't let everyone else have their niche.
The other option is to see if he would voluntarily power down his character. I am a bit of a min-max player myself, so have to be aware of the party balance issues sometime. I have volunteered to actually retire a character that was way out of step with the rest of the party.
As for the sulking player...mm....no easy answers from here I am afraid.
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Well, I could say a few things about the hundred celestials, but you're right, second-guessing your rulings isn't going to help the current situation.
If the wizard's player wants to take Leadership, or otherwise optimise his character as you've allowed the cleric's player to do, I can see no way not to immediately let him do so. It sounds as if this is certainly not the time for even a sniff of unequal treatment.
It might be time to allow a rebuild of all of the characters in the campaign - the cleric to strip out all Exalted material, forget casting planar ally again since he has already used up his favours with his deity's heralds for the rest of his natural life, and voluntarily drop anything else that's a particular problem, and the rest of the party to change out feats, etc., and take magic items of their choice as if starting their characters at their current level.
I'm more than likely going to have a group chat. Both sides have been complaining about the other and trying to get me to do something about the other side, it's become... frustrating. I can see the mistakes I've made in the past and the possible solutions I could have used to prevent this but that's a hindsight 20/20 sort of thing, so now I'm hunting for possible solutions. There are other issues I'll be addressing, i.e. one player spends much of his time on his laptop while he's at game and while he defends himself by saying he's multitasking all he does is wait for combat and then roll dice. He'll be easy enough to handle in comparison to the other two.
As for the hundred celestials, he literally spent about an hour pre-game calculating how many he could summon over the course of a week and pulled one of the weaker (6HD I think) ones that had a bunch of spell like abilities (among them Raise Dead and Hallow) from one of Wizards splat books. I checked the spell and the celestial and it worked, considering it was his downtime deal, it all worked out, per the rules. Whether I should have allowed it despite the rules is another matter entirely.
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As for the hundred celestials, he literally spent about an hour pre-game calculating how many he could summon over the course of a week and pulled one of the weaker (6HD I think) ones that had a bunch of spell like abilities (among them Raise Dead and Hallow) from one of Wizards splat books. I checked the spell and the celestial and it worked, considering it was his downtime deal, it all worked out, per the rules. Whether I should have allowed it despite the rules is another matter entirely.
I know the spell, I've used it once, after long thought about what it was going to cost. Read again from the paragraph starting "The creature called requires a payment for its services" and up to "this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services".
Nothing there says that the creature must or will accept whatever the cleric offers in payment, particularly a mere monetary bribe. He asks. It bargains. If it's not satisfied, it refuses. Given that he was a 7th or 8th level nobody, and what he asked them to do, think about just a few possibilities for what each celestial might ask of him in return.
The casting time of hallow is 24 hours which exceeds 1 hour per caster level. Did he have 600,000gp at that level? Even if each only did a raise dead for him, he'd have to perform services for them equivalent to 60,000gp. This is not a spell component, so he couldn't convert it to XP with exalted feats.
I'm not saying at all that he shouldn't be allowed to use his class abilities. If the player wanted to summon up an angel in play, make a pact with it and pay his debt with something really meaningful to sacrifice, that could have been a scene to remember for years to come. Relegating this to "downtime" is treating your game world with contempt and should be answered in the same spirit.
I've discussed how he pulled it off with him. I see where I went wrong, and technically one could argue that sacrificing one's life force could indeed be used via the Vow of Poverty but it certainly should have, at least not in the fashion it was. My memory of the event is fuzzy given that it was a couple months ago, thankfully he keeps good notes.
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Other people on these boards have used the excuse of; "Hey guys and gals - it's playtest time!"
Changing your game to Pathfinder will mean you have to drop all of the splatbooks; "We're playtesting the core rules dude." Whilst seducing playersd with new toys to play with.
The cleric will still be a dynamo but you'll have dumped VoP and the the other characters will feel their PFrpg boost.
Throw in some shiny magic items (RotRL requires/expects a certain amount of treasure-hunting and magic trading that not every party will enjoy - but you can fix that with juicy hoards). Playtesting the beta will also be a good excuse to change all of the players' magic gear if you want to.
As for the; "What's going on here?" aspect.
Once they reach the Library you can explain almost everything that has happened beforehand - It doesn't take much digging to see just how horrendous Karzoug is.
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In almost every group there's somebody who is just flat out better at optimizing characters, or coming up with breathtakingly effective tactics. One way I've found to at least mitigate some of the worst of it is to have the min-max pro help the other players design their characters.
At this point, in media res, and with hard feelings already voiced, it might not work (although, if switching over to Pathfinder, maybe this would be the time), but at the start of a game saying that 'X already made his character, so he'll be able to help anyone if they've got an idea and aren't sure what class or feat or whatever would best fit it, since he's familiar with a lot of the books' gives the min-maxer's 'secret advantage' to everyone at the table. (There may be someone who stubbornly refuses any advice, and even gets all up in arms at the suggestion that he 'needs help,' but this is the sort of person who would have been unhappy in any event, in my experience, so roll with it.)
There are various other techniques, but most of them are only good for one-shot games (have everyone design a character, and then hand it to a random other player to play for the night or use pre-gens or whatever).
I have less experience with this problem on the GM side of it, since I'm the one most likely to have ransacked sixteen books to make my character... But I do try not to stomp on anyone else's 'niche.' I've played almost exclusively Clerics (and Druids) in 3rd edition, but I've never cast Divine Power or Righteous Might, for that reason. Some tactics seem like fun-spoilers, and I try to avoid them.
Don't forget that clerics are granted their magic from their god, who can veto requested spells. If the cleric is running the god's supernatural servants ragged thoruogh repetitive requests, his diety might refuse to fulfil all his requests.
Some players are just REALLY good at finding ways to get what they want. I feel your pain!
When I GM, I have a standing rule about splat books: Bring it to the game (I probably don't have it,) and let me see it.
There are some books (Spell Compendium comes to mind) that have some cool stuff, but it's just way overpowered. Feel free to say "You can't do that." It's a matter of game balance.
I also reserve the right to change my mind. I had a PC using a Retributive Amulet that, after a few sessions, proved to be way too powerful in-game. I told him to exchange it for another item(s) of equal value, and we'd move on from there. Letting him have it in the first place was an experiment of sorts, and I didn't like the results.
Fortunately, he was my DM in another game (and a good one), and understood. He had made my sorcerer choose another spell after Legions' Fire Shield had torqued him off in his game!
It's hard to blame a power gamer for being good at what he does. It's also okay (and often necessary) to disallow splatbook stuff that ruins the game for you or other players. If he's not mature enough to understand that, then tell him you'll be looking for another cleric.
Sometimes it comes to that! I'd also tell Mr. Laptop to not bring it to the table. You're the boss, and if he doesn't think the game is worth his full attention, then zap his PC really good with a "snooze-you-lose" trick. His inattention should cost him big time.
He has, through the rules: summoned over a hundred celestials capable of casting Raise Dead and Hallow over the course of a week, teleported long before he should have via little loopholes.
When I DM, I make it clear that everything outside of the Core books has to be pre-approved by me, but that I'm really quite lenient with what I approve. I find that just by saying that, it discourages some folks from trying anything really crazy (like summoning armies of celestials for cheap/free) or exploiting loopholes because they know the games isn't quite "anything goes".
As far as him out-fighting your fighter, I'd suggest that you give your fighter some cool stuff (equipment, special tricks, whatever) that the cleric can be jealous of. :-)
I can think of a reason, RP-wise, for the wizard to bring in a cohort. If he's unsatisfied with the loot and is having a hard time figuring out some of the module elements and how they make sense... have him recruit a cohort wizard or mystic theurge or something. Load that NPC up with item creation feats and lots of knowledge skills. The wizard can justify this because he feels he needs a helper to make equipment to take on the challenges ahead and a specialist to consult on Thassilonian and giant lore.
You might speak with the cleric player, and see if he's up for role-playing a 'fall from grace' of sorts, to reduce him from the most powerful character, to the weakest, in need of protection. Something like falling vulnerable to Greed and breaking his Vow, or something more visible and drastic. Perhaps even the cohort turns on him.
One possible vow-breaker might be the acceptance of a title, that is considered property by the grantee and gives certain privileges. That mixes some pride into the fall.
If you simultaneously grant some boons to the others the change in fortunes should be dramatic.
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OK seems to me the real problem is not really mechanics here.
The problem is players are not having fun.
The Cleric Player is obviously enjoying his character, but seems annoyed with gripping and complaining, and stepping on his toes...
The Wizard Player is feeling overshadowed and not following the plot and finds the premises contrived...
Other Player is on the laptop and only pays attention during combat...
First thing I would do is tell them you want to address the problems and talk about things CALMLY, so you can ALL fix them so everyone enjoys the game.
Then ask them to make a quick character background. What are their character's goals? Then, what do the PLAYERs enjoy doing?
I am betting Other Player is more into combat than roleplaying (we have one too so we toss out more combats than usual- and try to put some attention on him during combat).
Wizard Player you said is a good roleplayer. Give him some specific goals that match his likes and character's goals. Also, let him have the Leadership feat if he really wants it. The Cleric is already shining enough he can afford to loose some center stage time and let the Wizard have some fun too.
For the Cleric Player make sure you keep him in the game by focusing on his goals and likes, but perhaps neuter his powers just a tad. The Cohort can be killed in combat. Sucks but hey it happens. Becoming so powerful and summoning SO many celestials has drawn special attention from his god but also from Demon Lords, Evil Gods, and others. He had better be acting to his alignment to the T, and better be looking over his shoulder.
For the plot problem, someone else in the forums had great idea and planted journals, and documents for players to find that explained some things in the plot in his game. This way if they kill everything in sight and never hear the backstory they can still find something sometime that makes things make sense. You don't have to have the clues available right away. Maybe when the PCs are leaving the castle they get ambushed by some token Ogres and find that they had killed a monk who had been researching the castle and find the Ogres had taken his journal... with answers. Or the answers can come even later... maybe after another couple of sessions they find that journal.
But one thing I think is important is to ask each player to cooperate in making it a better game, to be considerate of each other and you, and to give it some time for things to improve. Heck tell them since they are all friends (presumably) to encourage one another and help each other in making it a memorable game.
It doesn't matter that the Cleric Player summoned 100 celestials in a week... it doesn't matter his Cohort is tweaked to the max. What matters is getting each player invested in a constructive manner that satisfies their enjoyment of the game.
BTW one way I dealt with a cleric player who hogged the attention was having him have a "romantic encounter" at EVERY SINGLE inn they went to. Funny thing was she was always a red head. He thought it was just a funny running gag. She was in fact a Succubus sent to corrupt him... same demon every time... different look. Eventually it worked and he was blown away when I revealed what I had been doing all game long. He wound up in a showdown alongside his "sweetie" against the PCs. He had a lot of making up to do to the PCs (not the players-they thought it was awesome) and his god...
death to splatbooks core material only! use convention rule playing!
Death to splat books!
and you can always kill off a cohort without killing the character.
Assassins come to mind. axe the cohort as a "message" to the player, the soprano crime family is watching you! next time you step out of line, it will be more than your little dog toto that will be sleeping with the fishes!
If the wizard wants a cohort, why not let him have one and call it an apprentice? If he's 9th leve, I'd say that's high enough to attract some hopeful mage's attention, particularly if the PCs are already recognized as heroes. This can also be an in-game reason to let the wizard player customize his cohort the same way the cleric did: as the apprentice's master, the wizard directs him in his studies and training (read: feat and skill and spell selection). Would that make the arcanist happy?
I think the OP ought to halt the game and sit down with his players and work this whole thing out. What do they think the problems are? How do they think they can be resolved fairly? Should there be restrictions on stuff in the future? If so how should that be implemented?
In this case the players have managed to tell their DM, in a back handed sort of way, that some of his personal views on the game (ex. game balance is not a big deal) do not jive with their views of the game. A lot of the other problems might well more or less clear up if the fundamentals are fixed. Though its perfectly valid for to bring up ground rules at this point like no using lap tops at the table. Essentially I think its imperative, if this group is to survive, that everyone comes to discuss (not as DMs and players) what needs to change to make this a fun experience for everyone.
This might kill RotRLs and that'd be unfortunate but it strikes me that this group really needs to figure out just what it is they want from their RPG night and answering this fundamental question is more important then any individual campaign.
If everyone is into it then new characters can continue the campaign where the old one left off and some story reason can be thought up to explain this.
Greetings everyone.
First I'd like to say thank you for all the advice. Hell, I even used some of it! Though some was a touch null and void. We were actually running Rise of the Runelords with Pathfinder RPG Beta rules and were in the middle of Fortress of the Stone Giants so certain suggestions simply couldn't be done.
Anyway, I took some of the advice, I sat everyone down, had a chat and expressed my feelings. Some changes were made. I let the fighter alter his character started tossing in random magic items and everything seemed better. I thought improvements had been made. Now the Cleric's player is irritated that I let the fighter adjust his character and gave him a couple perks and thinks I'm bending over backwards for their side.
Suffice to say I'm done with this.
I've bounced back and forth between the two people mentioned above and quite honestly I don't think there's any middle ground. I'm thinking it's about time to scrap the campaign altogether. Whether I'd start a new one up or just take a break from gaming for awhile, I don't know, but I think it's time to scrap this. It's not that it isn't salvageable but it's getting to the point to where I just don't think it's worth salvaging anymore. Who knows. I just might move to an online medium of play.
Either way I think I acted too late and right now the work and stress to fun ratio just isn't making this game worth it any longer. I'll see what happens this weekend and next and fill those of you that are interested in on the details whatever they may be.