I've been having an issue for some time now with the Wealth by Level guidelines. Assuming these are in place, and that the party can sell their loot for 1/2 price, then the system seems to have an inherent flaw. Let's say I'm a DM, and the party needs to earn around 5,000gp in the next adventure. I drop in a periapt of Wisdom +2 (4,000gp) and a 1st level pearl of power (1,000gp) and call it a day, right? But then the party decides they don't want either of the things and sell them for half price. Now they only have 2,500gp. It gets worse if, say, a cleric decides to keep the periapt of Wisdom +2 and the mage decides to sell the pearl of power. Then the cleric has the full 4,000gp value of the item on his sheet, while the mage only gets 500gp to trade with out of the pearl's 1,000gp listed worth. A major loss on his part.
This gets even wonkier if the party uses a communal pool for their wealth, and each character is expected to buy the loot they keep out of that pool. If the cleric keeps the periapt and the pearl gets sold off, then is the pool 5,000gp or 4,500gp? What if both are kept or both are sold off?
Do you see the problem? The very system seems to defeat itself. The party I'm currently in has some loot that we got in the last adventure (a ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +2, and a fully-charged wand of Melf's acid arrow). We're not sure yet as to what will be sold and what will be kept, and we do use a kind of party pool system: we determine which items will be kept and which sold, and then we calculate the total value of the loot based on that, divide by the number of players, and those who are keeping items buy them at full cost out of the pool. Everyone else gets the free cash when it has been divided up and adjusted for whatever debts one may have from this or prior loot sell-offs. The problem is that some people get more and some people get less, through no fault of ours. The system itself is causing the problems.
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
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I don't know if I can help you too well; I think I do things differently. I guess from your standpoint as dm it's supply side economics or something; you figure the max value of the stuff and let them figure out if they hawk it and lose value; maybe later if they're selling all their loot and thus inherently lowering their own power level that gives you some elbow room to pump up the loot somewhat.
I also.....tend to ask the players what they want, or figure it out (touch and go sometimes--whoda thunk they'd sell a +1 katana?) and maybe lessen what they're selling/buying that way.
I also tend to use the wealth by level as a base guideline more than an absolute, and try to look and see if anybody's kinda low on the "damage/fun/doing stuff" output meter; then I can know how to adjust up accordingly....for example, I might see that the fighter is not dishing quite what he should be and it's approaching time for +2 weapon-type gear to start appearing; whaddya know, the bbeg has a +2 ogresplatterer of some kind.
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I also like to shovel some coin their way so wizards/clerics can horde up some scrolls and thus bypass the old "15 minute adventure day" riff.
If they get a buttload of scrolls, the wealth-by-level problem evens out because those are expendable commodities that also tend to diminish in value over time.
This is sort of an overstatement to model what I'm talking about, but if a 5th level wizard has about 20 fireball spells on scroll, and he gets to be 10th level wizard, it doesn't sound that impressive when he should be pumping out 10 h.d. fireballs, if not even more potent spellplay, and they're so relatively low-value compared to the cash he's pulling in now that it's really not too big a problem.
Good commentary, Heathy, but what I'm really looking for is how other people, assuming they do at least occasionally consult the Wealth by Level tables, deal with this apparent flaw in the RAW (hehe, rhymes). It seems to be an oversight on the part of the game designers, as there is (to my knowldge) no place where this is explicitly addressed in the rules. Am I correct, or missing something?
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It seems to be an oversight on the part of the game designers, as there is (to my knowldge) no place where this is explicitly addressed in the rules. Am I correct, or missing something?
There are too many variables for it to be addressed in any more than a vauge manner.
Basically:1. You need to do a massive default to the Magic Mart, no matter how much you may hate it. This includes outright asking the players for what items should be included in the next treasure batch. It also means making significant consideration for upgrading items.
2. You need to understand the difference between NPC equipment levels and standard encounter treasure levels. If you love using NPCs, get used to the players having excessive amounts of surplus loot they want to sell. Also be aware this loot will regularly be of lesser value than is relevant to them, and be multiples of the same item.
3. Remember, nothing says "I love your characters" like diamonds (or reasonable equivalent). Giving raw "cash" and access to a store will resolve tons of wealth by level issues. It can be done either by gratuitous reward or payment in advance method.
4. Do not obsess over it. Make your best guess, provide opportunities to sell loot and buy new stuff, and try to keep vaguely close to the suggested levels. Within 10% is fine, within 25% is about the general limit. Stick with that and you should be OK.
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And if it helps, use a spreadsheet to keep a track of such things.
Yes, that would help too.
I do not currently use a spreadsheet because I provide a list that includes the full write up of all items for my players. I have a running total of the costs on it, and just up the values every half level as they progress through encounters. (It is a MIRC based game, so half a level can take a month to play through. It would have to be significantly accelerated for a tabletop game.)
Thanks for the suggestions! I'm not actually the DM in this case, though I've invited the DM to check in on this thread. I'm currently a player in my friend's Eberron campaign; luckily, that setting supports the "Magic Market" concept far more easily than many others. I remember an excellent thread and post here on Paizo, somewhere in the archives now, which dealt excellently with the sticky issue of D&D economics. It discussed applying the economic norms that would actually be found in medieval world (or at least very likely to be found in a pseudo-medieval world). Essentially, a barter system with three strata. At the low end, peasants barter between each other with potatoes and cows, while the next level involves city-dwellers who actually trade in cash. No one would trade magic unless they were bartering for some other kind of magic. Why would you give away a magical sword if the money isn't necessarily ensured and the person you're trading with could very easily kill you with it once he has it, and keep the cash to boot! A magic sword could be a good trade for a magic wandm though. Whoever needs or can use the one likely has less use than the other and, roughly speaking, they are of the same power level (in these general terms); this adds a measure of equivalence and stability to the trade.
So how does this factor into wealth by level? Well, maybe not at all in my friend's Eberron game. However, the homebrew I run is a more traditional setting where this might provide a useful manner of getting around the Wealth by Level problems. Most of the wealth adveturers get comes from selling off magic items; most of what they spend this on is, again, magic items. Why not eliminate the "middle-man" that is cash and coin, then? Allow magic items to be traded for equivalently priced magic items at full cost. This circumvents the self-inflicted problems in the current Wealth by Level charts, as it's not selling the loot for half price, while also eliminating (or at least reducing) the presence of Magic-Mart in the game. It's not buying and selling; it's bartering directly.
Further thoughts, comments, and/or suggestions?
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Further thoughts, comments, and/or suggestions?
Yes.
There is more to a medieval economy than just that.The general manorial system functioned in a manner similar to the more popularly referenced Big Man system using a form of Potlach. Basically, the administrators accumulated commodities then redistributed them to the community to demonstrate their wealth and power.
The mercantilism was heavily limited by possibilities of capital improvement and the big man system, so bullion exchanges tended to be limited to immediate transfers that were turned around for new goods. (Loose paraphrase: Starting up a business had lousy potential, and the taxes were even worse. Merchants arrived, sold their stock for local coin, then immediately bought new stock, leaving for the next stop on the market circuit with mostly more stuff to sell and little actual coin.)
In such an economy, what someone running a magic shop would sell his products for would either be other magic items (which the seller presumably does not want) or the raw "special" materials to make new magic items (which the seller presumably cannot use), significantly reducing any chance of immediate theft. (Yes, you can wander from magic shop to magic shop with four +1 swords, offering to trade them for a +2 sword, or two +2 stat boost items, then killing the shopkeeper and stealing everything over and over. Other than total psychosis, why bother?)
You also need to casually background all of the fine details of the exchanges that are "realistically accurate" but infinitely boring and tedious. 8,000 gp for a +2 weapon is 160 lbs of gold. Aside from making a dent in the cobblestones when you drop it, it is going to be highly noticeable. The local ruler is going to be aware of anyone routinely having hundreds to thousands of pounds of gold going in and out of his shop door. Cut into his tax base and he will not be happy. Likewise I am sure the local thieves' guild will not appreciate the competition. And of course the shopkeeper has hundreds to thousands of pounds of gold going in and out of his shop door. If hired guards of an appropriate level are too silly (like 20th level bartenders), then go with prepaid curses or summoned vengeance. Nothing says "security" like a gated pit fiend to avenge your murder by obnoxious adventurers. (Assuming of course that having the king unleash the army on you because you just reduced his tax base by 5%, and the thieves' guild put you on the permanent mark list does not make your life miserable enough that you just give up.)
Here is the thread and post (the first one) which I mentioned earlier. I suppose accuracy and realsim isn't what I'm going for, but rather a way to present at least a somewhat more palatable economic system (from my own end; I doubt the players would really care) and to bypass the wierdness that is the Wealth by Level rules (without wholey discarding them). The ultimate point is that magic is traded for magic at a 1:1 rate. That way I can drop a pearl of power for the players and be assured that they've got 1,000gp worth of gear, regardless of whether they sell it or keep it. It's also so much easier from the players' perspectives; they would no longer have to change their figures about who gets how much depending on what is to be gotten rid of and what is to be kept.
From an in-game point of view, selling for full price doesn't make sense if the merchants are trying to "make a profit" in coin, which assumes a more modern economic system. But using a more personalized bartering system, it is easier to understand that the "profit" of the trade comes fromm each participant gaining a magical item (or whatever) which is more useful to them then whatever it is they currently have. It also alleviates a lot of the awkwardness which comes from players getting cash for their gear and, as has been said, ending up with bag upon bag so laden with gold each would break the pavement, and expecting the characters to lug this around somehow and not have anyone pay it much mind. The interim stage of cash would be removed and replaced by direct transfer of one item for another. Wealth can still be measured by the gold piece, but the listed prices in the DMG become more of a comparison basis; these two items are worth one of those, or this and that are about the same. If the discrepency in price is too great, a few gems could be exchanged to make up for the difference, and minor magic items could certainly still be bought with that coin.
As I said, accuracy to historical models isn't really the point; the goal is to reduce headaches on both sides of the DM's screen, be more equitable to the players, and present a system that is at least more believable within the context of the game world.
Well, those are my ideas for what to do in my campaign; I'll have to see if my current DM is interested in adopting them as well. But that's not really what I wanted to talk about in this thread, and in the event my friend doesn't want to adopt these changes (since, as previously mentioned, Eberron suits that Magic-Mart concept far better than many other settings), I'd still like to hear from people regarding how they do or would suggest handling this issue.
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I think I see where you are going now.
Yes, that can work. Rather easily too. However, you are going to have to be even more careful with using NPCs in your campaign as they have, as I noted, significantly higher amounts of wealth per CR. One-fourth of all encounters is likely high, and you will also have to place virtually no additional (unused) treasure. If not, be prepared to "remove" items from the PCs by one method or other. (Disintegrating Drow equipment and the like.)
Do you see the problem? The very system seems to defeat itself. The party I'm currently in has some loot that we got in the last adventure (a ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +2, and a fully-charged wand of Melf's acid arrow). We're not sure yet as to what will be sold and what will be kept, and we do use a kind of party pool system: we determine which items will be kept and which sold, and then we calculate the total value of the loot based on that, divide by the number of players, and those who are keeping items buy them at full cost out of the pool. Everyone else gets the free cash when it has been divided up and adjusted for whatever debts one may have from this or prior loot sell-offs. The problem is that some people get more and some people get less, through no fault of ours. The system itself is causing the problems....
You are looking at it wrong. look at the characters. how much wealth do they have?
The cleric has a 4000 gp periapt. The mage (unwisely) sold the Pearl...he has less money.
The next adventure, give the mage a +2 Int booster and enough cash to bring the cleric up to par.
Ignore what is sold, what is sundered, what is and is not. Just look at what the characters finally end up with and balance the next adventure based on that. You'll never be perfect, but you'll be constantly moving towards the goal. You can't tell what they'll actually 'get'...stuff can be destroyed, and can be sold instead of kept.
Look at what they Keep...it's the final measure. Everything else is a cover and a distraction. IF they have too much, stop handing out loot. If someone is behind, give them something geared to them that shoots up their wealth, and brings them to par with the others. If they hate what you have, sell it all, and get what they want, then next level twink up the loot a bit, give them more rewards, etc.
Don't worry about getting it perfect every encounter...balance as you go.
==Aelryinth
I think you're taking the guidelines too literally. The purpose (IMO) is to use it as a benchmark: if you sum up the value of all of a character's gear, and it's below the benchmark, you should consider steering some more (or better) gear to that character. Likewise, if the character's gear is more valuable than the benchmark, that he probably has enough (or good enough) equipment.
How that character obtains his gear (e.g. if he finds magic items or if he buys a magic item somehow) is not important for the purposes of the power benchmark.
Look at what they Keep...it's the final measure. Everything else is a cover and a distraction.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it.
I think I see where you are going now.
Yes, that can work. Rather easily too. However, you are going to have to be even more careful with using NPCs in your campaign as they have, as I noted, significantly higher amounts of wealth per CR. One-fourth of all encounters is likely high, and you will also have to place virtually no additional (unused) treasure. If not, be prepared to "remove" items from the PCs by one method or other. (Disintegrating Drow equipment and the like.)
I like to give NPCs one-shots, such as potions and scrolls, for this very reason. They use up some of the treasure in the course of the encounter; and even if what the party gets is powerful, they burn through it in turn.
You are looking at it wrong. look at the characters. how much wealth do they have?
The cleric has a 4000 gp periapt. The mage (unwisely) sold the Pearl...he has less money.
The next adventure, give the mage a +2 Int booster and enough cash to bring the cleric up to par.
I think you're taking the guidelines too literally. The purpose (IMO) is to use it as a benchmark: if you sum up the value of all of a character's gear, and it's below the benchmark, you should consider steering some more (or better) gear to that character. Likewise, if the character's gear is more valuable than the benchmark, that he probably has enough (or good enough) equipment.
And while that solutioin works, it only proves my point. The RAW verge on self-defeating, so that the DM has to put in more time and effort to nake sure things are going alright. I don't want to slavishly examine the characters and track their wealth; I do want to use the rules as guidelines. I want to be able to throw some treasure at them, and thereafter it's there business. I want to know what I placed was close enough to the guidelines, and not have to worry about it anymore so that I can spend my time designing adventures rather than accounting. What they do with it after I hand it out should be there business. But moreover, I repeat that in the current situation, I am the player. We're getting situations where some people get a lot, others get only a little, and it keeps getting more and more sideways it seems because of this oversight in the RAW.
I think you're taking the guidelines too literally. The purpose (IMO) is to use it as a benchmark: if you sum up the value of all of a character's gear, and it's below the benchmark, you should consider steering some more (or better) gear to that character. Likewise, if the character's gear is more valuable than the benchmark, that he probably has enough (or good enough) equipment.And while that solutioin works, it only proves my point. The RAW verge on self-defeating, so that the DM has to put in more time and effort to nake sure things are going alright.
More time and effort than what?
I guess there was no "wealth by level" chart in AD&D; in those days you'd say a DM was running a "Monty Haul" campaign instead (based on whatever one's idea of "Monty Haul" is). Now there's a rule that says "If you have more than X stuff, that's probably too much." That's all it says, really. If you want to go back to the AD&D method of making up your own standard of a "Monty Haul" game, it's trivial to do so.
You are looking at it wrong. look at the characters. how much wealth do they have?
The cleric has a 4000 gp periapt. The mage (unwisely) sold the Pearl...he has less money.
The next adventure, give the mage a +2 Int booster and enough cash to bring the cleric up to par.
Ignore what is sold, what is sundered, what is and is not. Just look at what the characters finally end up with and balance the next adventure based on that. You'll never be perfect, but you'll be constantly moving towards the goal. You can't tell what they'll actually 'get'...stuff can be destroyed, and can be sold instead of kept.
Look at what they Keep...it's the final measure. Everything else is a cover and a distraction. IF they have too much, stop handing out loot. If someone is behind, give them something geared to them that shoots up their wealth, and brings them to par with the others. If they hate what you have, sell it all, and get what they want, then next level twink up the loot a bit, give them more rewards, etc.
Don't worry about getting it perfect every encounter...balance as you go.
==Aelryinth
What he said!
The players just have to be ready to deal with the occasional "treasure audit", as you check on who has what item, and how much liquidity there is in cash and gems (for making/upgrading/buying items).
Sorry; I meant to make that clearer in my last post. I can't stand doing treasure audits. I've never had a player who actually wrote down all their equipment in a way I could understand 100% when I looked over their sheets, so it's always been a royal pain for me. That's the reason why I really want to know up front, when I'm designing the adventures, that they are getting approximately the right amount of treasure. I like to know that I'm putting X wealth into the adventure, so they'll be walking away with X amount when it's through. What they do with it after that is their concern.
And, just as an aside, I can't really "go back" to the 1e/AD&D books, as I and my friends are all of that category of whipper-snappers who've never played anything but 3.x.
Sorry; I meant to make that clearer in my last post. I can't stand doing treasure audits. I've never had a player who actually wrote down all their equipment in a way I could understand 100% when I looked over their sheets, so it's always been a royal pain for me. That's the reason why I really want to know up front, when I'm designing the adventures, that they are getting approximately the right amount of treasure. I like to know that I'm putting X wealth into the adventure, so they'll be walking away with X amount when it's through. What they do with it after that is their concern.
And, just as an aside, I can't really "go back" to the 1e/AD&D books, as I and my friends are all of that category of whipper-snappers who've never played anything but 3.x.
When discussing 'audits', go with the old rule:
"If its not on your sheet, its not on your character."
Sorry; I meant to make that clearer in my last post. I can't stand doing treasure audits. I've never had a player who actually wrote down all their equipment in a way I could understand 100% when I looked over their sheets, so it's always been a royal pain for me.When discussing 'audits', go with the old rule:
"If its not on your sheet, its not on your character."
The problem Saern is probably running into is deciphering exactly what is on the character sheet. There are a lot of gamers who don't keep their character sheets, etc. in an organized, easily read manner. Add in that they may not know the actual (or full) properties of any particular item (or not write it down coherently) and audits can be a pain.
One possible way of simplifying things is to use "item cards:" either the GameMastery ones or just note cards with a name/flavor text description that are cross-referenced to a list with the game mechanics and gp value. They also double as in-game hand-outs (which are almost always nifty for the players).
I like to know that I'm putting X wealth into the adventure, so they'll be walking away with X amount when it's through. What they do with it after that is their concern.
That's simple enough. The only thing is that you characters might be slightly "ahead of the curve" or "behind the curve" (e.g. if they lose an item or keep an item without using it or swap it for something less valuable), where the "curve" is the wealth-by-level chart. That's not necessarily a big deal, though.
I agree with most of what Aelryinth said above.
But a quick question Saern; do you view wealth by level as a guideline or as the rule?
Consider another thing... The buying capacity of the town they are in, which is usually pretty low unless your PCs are in a major city.
Say the PCs are first level and are presently in a small village on the outskirts of known civilization. They find a preal of wisdom. In my game, since no one in a 1000 mile radius has 4000gp to part with, the group is pretty much stuck with it.
I tend to make magic items a bit more rare in my games and also tend to send the PCs where villages are small (and money is short). I've seen players actually start deciding to start weilding that weird +1 exotic weapon they found in the old caves, and take a feat on the next level to use it properly.
(I also try to discourage players to map out their PCs from first to tenth level in advance, telling them that trainning may not be available everywhere, or that the party just may not find a wizard's spellbook at third level so don't even consider it when generating your character.)
Ultradan
Wealth by Level is a guideline that is part of the rules; I try to keep an eye on it and make sure that, overall, it's being observed properly. The reason it drives me batty is the self-defeating nature of the juxtaposition between Wealth by Level and the norms for buying and selling gear. It makes me put in more time and effort on the whole deal than I want. Dragonchess Player hit the nail on the head about audits, too. It's a nightmare trying to decipher what exactly is going on with the players' sheets because everyone has different ideas of what needs to be written down and what doesn't, and how to go about writting it beyond that.
The reason I bring all this up now is that I've recently started a new group (well, "recently" being the beginning of this past summer, but the slackers still haven't learned many of the most basic rules). I want to come up with an easier, better system for this group right from the start, both from the players' end and the DM's.
Anyway, I think the discussion here with all its different perspectives has helped me at least figure out what I want to do and some seeds for discussion with my current DM about how to handle it in his game. Thanks, all.
I agree that it would make more sense to get rid of the wealth-by-level gp value and say something more like:
"A level 4 character should have equipment similar to:
-one +1 weapon OR a wand of a 1st level spell
-one masterwork backup weapon OR 3 scrolls
-one +1 shield or armor or bracers of armor +2
-etc."
You can look at the equipment of the sample NPCs in the DMG to get more specific lists of magic items, but you get the drift. Listing a gp value for wealth-by-level is a poor idea in some ways ("The party has a Helm of Underwater Action, so now I don't have to give them any treasure for a year!")
One possible way of simplifying things is to use "item cards:" either the GameMastery ones or just note cards with a name/flavor text description that are cross-referenced to a list with the game mechanics and gp value. They also double as in-game hand-outs (which are almost always nifty for the players).
This has always helped me a lot. I used to make them myself using MS Publisher so there was a 3 x 5 card for each item. Now I just use the gamemastery cards.
Personally when I design an adventure for my group I look at what monsters and scenarios I have what the group is composed of and what wealth they should get for how much of a level gain the adventure provides. Then what I do is try and make at least half the adventure have treasure that I know somebody in the party will want (either class specific items of character concept specific items). The remaining items are stuff that are appropriate for the NPCs and some random stuff that someone may use or not. Then I basically try and make the numbers come out the best I can.
So say the adventure I'm making should give them one level and they should gain 5,000gp each during that level gain. If the party is four memebers then that's about 20,000gp in treasure in the adventure. I make 10,000gp of it items that I'm pretty sure the party will keep. I then assume that the party will not keep all of the remaining 10,000gp worth of magic items so I give them 50% more, so 15,000gp in NPC specific treasure or random stuff. Sure is they sold it all for half then they would end up 2,500gp short of the 20,000gp total but they probably won't sell it all. Overall it works out pretty well. Granted it all hinges on knowing your players and their wants and needs.
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For audits:
That is one reason I started keeping the magic account for everyone. (The other three reasons being the player who had been doing it burned out keeping the record, the wealth/level balance was getting out of control, and I was going with increasingly non-standard items that the players could not easily look up. All of those says a lot about the practice as well I would think.)
For tracking everything, particularly consumables:
As I become older, fogier, and more concerned with my story instead of RAW, I become less concerned about this. For my current campaign, 10% of the wealth for a level is "consumables". Whatever the player feels the need for, potions, scrolls, wands, alchemical items, ordinary silk rope, whatever. That balance covers whatever they need for 10-12 encounters, then it replenishes. If I really needed to justify it, it is a magical item like a combination alchemy jug and robe of many items. My campaign is about whupping on monsters and engaging the story, not managing spreadsheets for how many sunrods you have. It is more critical at lower levels, but now at 12th level it becomes a drag and I am leaving it behind.