Animal Companion and Size increase

[Ian Morris 321]

I was looking over the SRD and it does not say if the additional HD from being an animal companion lead to a size increase, as detailed in the animal's advancement entry in the MM.

It does directly mention the extra HD means more feats, BAB, and saves.

I am also confused because the Druid Guide (from Dragon Magazine) says that animal companions do not advance as normal and as presented in the MM. I would interpret this to mean more feats, BAB, and saves.

SRD > Dragon article, so I can safely assume that the extra HD increased feats, BAB, and saves. What about size? Was this omitted on purpose?

[Cato Novus]

Both are right. The animal does not advance as listed in the MM, because its getting its benefits from being with the Druid. Think of it as the creature taking Animal Companion as a class.

That said, many DMs are willing to allow a player to trade these "levels" of Animal Companion for hitdice in creature advancement. Your creature's advancement typically means you lose out on the features of higher level Animal Companions.

[Ian Morris 321]

Cato Novus wrote:

Both are right. The animal does not advance as listed in the MM, because its getting its benefits from being with the Druid. Think of it as the creature taking Animal Companion as a class.

That said, many DMs are willing to allow a player to trade these "levels" of Animal Companion for hitdice in creature advancement. Your creature's advancement typically means you lose out on the features of higher level Animal Companions.

Ok. Thanks for the reply. So if I understand correctly, the animal gets the bonus HD, STR/DEX, and NA from 'companion' levels. The animal is then adjusted in BAB, skills, and feats based on the new HD. The animal just does not get a larger size and the massive benefits that provides.

This seems kind of lame to me. I would rather have a druid PC with a giant wolf than a brown bear. It seems like these rules benefit the druids that 'trade' in their best friends every so many levels.

Does anyone have experience with letting an animal advance in size? Will this break the already powerful 3.5 druid?

[Cato Novus]

Well, Druids get the ability to use higher CR creatures later on, and the Wolf can advance from a Medium sized 3 Hit Die creature to a Large sized 6 Hit Die creature. Now based on the CRs from the MM, since a Medium sized Shark or Snake are an equal CR to the same sized Wolf, and the Large sized versions are available to 4th level and higher Druids(the larger ones are CR 2). I don't see why any fair minded DM wouldn't allow that as long as you are nice about it, unless he's a very strict rules stickler.

[Rift]

It's not game-breaking, just powerful. I allowed it for a newbie we had in our game, I wanted the wolf to be able to defend itself and her so I gave it both the animal companion benefits and the size increase.

2d6+11 for a single primary attack isn't that bad at lvl 6, and it trips like a pro, but that's about it. That and it can be used as a mount in an emergency but you try sneaking a horse the size of a small horse into town without trouble.

Hope that helped a bit and good luck.

[pres man]

SRD wrote:

Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

These are not older and tough creatures, they are mutants.

[Ian Morris 321]

Thanks everyone.

I like the idea of letting the animal companion get bigger so that it can stay effective in combat and the druid doesn't have to 'trade' up to a lion later on.

Thanks again,
Ian

[Cato Novus]

No problem. By the way, the simplest way to do the HD advancement along with the Animal Companion advancement is to advance the HD for the first 3 levels(thusly progressing the 3 HD Medium Wolf to the 6 HD Large Wolf), then treat the creature as an Animal Companion from fourth level on. This method is less confusing, and you're technically not recieving your Animal Companion yet, and its being treated as one of the 4th level choices.

This is all if your DM is cool with it, though.

[Ian Morris 321]

Exactly,
That was going to be my reasoning.
Take a large wolf later as an Animal Companion and as long as the new HD are similar to a creature you could also select I didn't see any problems.

[pres man]

Ian Morris 321 wrote:

Thanks everyone.

I like the idea of letting the animal companion get bigger so that it can stay effective in combat and the druid doesn't have to 'trade' up to a lion later on.

Thanks again,
Ian

Of course a dire wolf is better than an enlarged wolf, but each to his own I guess.

Also if an animal entry says it maxes out its advancement, how does this apply to taking more HD from being an animal companion? If the size details apply then shouldn't the HD cap also? There is something wrong with picking and choosing which details apply and don't.

[Ian Morris 321]

Of course a dire wolf is better than an enlarged wolf, but each to his own I guess.

Also if an animal entry says it maxes out its advancement, how does this apply to taking more HD from being an animal companion? If the size details apply then shouldn't the HD cap also? There is something wrong with picking and choosing which details apply and don't.

From the SRD

"However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels."

I was assuming the MM entry for size relative to HD was just that, a comparison of a monster's HD based on its size. Is it a cap? That doesn't really go well with the above statement in the SRD.

If a creature can advance in size and class (I am sure there are better examples but an awakened tiger) are the HD gained from class level limited by the advancement entry?

Nevermind, page 7 of the 3.5 MM in the advancement entry, "This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare."

[Saern]

Or, you could just swap out the wolf for a dire wolf, as per the alternate animal companion rules on page 36 of the PHB. This is the option the last druid I DMed for was pursuing. They didn't think of it as replacing the actual companion; when they reached the proper level, the fluff would be that they peformed a ritual and the animal grew larger and stronger. Different creature mechanically, but the same in terms of story and XP. I'm working with a ranger right now, and a similar thing seems to be in the works. It appears when he gets to 4th level and gains the animal companion, he's going to have a boar. Of course, that's too powerful for his effective level, so we'll use the similar stats for a riding dog initially and just call it a boar. Then it can become a full-sized boar, and then when he's high enough level (11th, I think?), he can swap for a dire boar. Mechanically, these are all different creatures and he's following the rules for gaining totally new animal companions. But from a roleplaying perspective, it's all the same creature; it's just growing stronger and stronger with its master.