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Hi there,
I just read here on the website of german 4e publisher Feder & Schwert ("feather & sword") the following news:
- Publication of 4e products will be discontinued at the end of this year.
- The last product to be published will be the Dungeon Master Guide, i.e. only the core books will be available in german.
- No new 4e product after 1st January 2009
- F&S will concentrate on its Warhammer Fantasy and Warhamer 40,000 rpg product line and a so far unknown project.
The spring/ summer 2009 product prospectus of F&S found here still lists several 4e products like the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide for the first quarter of 2009. The prospectus was published last month. So the decision must have been pretty sudden.
This is bad news for 4e D&D fans in german speaking countries.
This could be good news for german speaking Pathfinder fans, if german Pathfinder products are going to take up of the market share left by F&S.
This will mainly depend on translation quality and of course on the publsihing date of the first german Pathfinder products. So far no official information about publishing dates is available on german Pathfinder licensee's Ulisses Spiele web site, though.
Cheers,
Günther
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Hi there,
I just read here on the website of german 4e publisher Feder & Schwert ("feather & sword") the following news:
- Publication of 4e products will be discontinued at the end of this year.
- The last product to be published will be the Dungeon Master Guide, i.e. only the core books will be available in german.
- No new 4e product after 1st January 2009
- F&S will concentrate on its Warhammer Fantasy and Warhamer 40,000 rpg product line and a so far unknown project.
The spring/ summer 2009 product prospectus of F&S found here still lists several 4e products like the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide for the first quarter of 2009. The prospectus was published last month. So the decision must have been pretty sudden.
This is bad news for 4e D&D fans in german speaking countries.
This could be good news for german speaking Pathfinder fans, if german Pathfinder products are going to take up of the market share left by F&S.This will mainly depend on translation quality and of course on the publsihing date of the first german Pathfinder products. So far no official information about publishing dates is available on german Pathfinder licensee's Ulisses Spiele web site, though.
Cheers,
Günther
Well, should Feder und Schwert invest that time with Warhammer PPG I will be happy (given that they have the license to produce NEW material, which I doubt). Some of my players will welcome any PF translation, though its sad that they will then quit to practice their English. And Günther is right, if the translation of the Pathfinder RPG hits the German market on time, followed by the 3. AP (or maybe at the same time), I believe that there might be quite a few people who will change to Pathfinder.
@ Günther or any other who has been to any Game Convention in Germany lately:
Does any one here in Germany have been to a RPG Convention lately? If yes, any knowledge or sound guesses as to how many there have been playing PF beta or at least used Golarion as Campaign World?
Greetings from the Old River Rhine
Jörg
Let the speculation begin.
This is bad news for 4e D&D fans in german speaking countries.
I don't know. It's just rumours, but I did hear somewhere that F&S didn't do such a good job.
I do think it interesting that German D&D is changing hands so fast - F&S hasn't been into it that long, Amigo was the German D&D guys far longer (and I didn't like their work one bit).
I wonder whether they have someone else for German 4e, or whether they'll find someone.
I also really wonder who terminated this, and why.
I've heard the quality of the German translations were kind of lacking too, but then, every German player I've ever talked to just gets the English versions (not surprising, since I talk to them on English-language websites).
FYI, Scott Rouse is going to Europe pretty soon on business. I'd think that this would be one of things he has to deal with while he's over there.
I've heard the quality of the German translations were kind of lacking too, but then, every German player I've ever talked to just gets the English versions (not surprising, since I talk to them on English-language websites).
Most of those I play with go for the English stuff, too - in my main group (which evolved from my first 3e group ever), some people had a few German books in the past, but took them as incentive to learn to use English books.
The only case I know where someone insists on German stuff is from the other group: Her English's not very good, and she's very stubborn. One of the reasons I can't get them to switch to Beta.
Bad transitions are almost a tradition here. Translated terms sounding boring and/or lame are the least. Interpreting missile as rocket rather than something that comes flying at you is more awful. Turning "lich" into "Lurch" (more or less "lizard") eats the cake. And those are only those I can think of right now.
I did get involved with some German D&D Stuff, and regretted it every time.
FYI, Scott Rouse is going to Europe pretty soon on business. I'd think that this would be one of things he has to deal with while he's over there.
Where? Europe is big. I need to know how far I have to drive and whether the custard pie would hold for so long or whether I have to get my ammo on-site. ;-)
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Bad transitions are almost a tradition here. Translated terms sounding boring and/or lame are the least. Interpreting missile as rocket rather than something that comes flying at you is more awful. Turning "lich" into "Lurch" (more or less "lizard") eats the cake. And those are only those I can think of right now.
Are you speaking of the infamous 1st Ed. Dungeon Masters Guide translation or is that a recent one?
I don't know where it came from. I think it was from early 3e days.
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I don't know where it came from. I think it was from early 3e days.
Nope.
Lich was translated as "Leichnam" (dead body) in german 3e/ 3.5.Keep in mind that most posters on this site are considerably more D&D obsessed than the average player in german speaking countries.
My group tended to be less enthusiastic about english rule books even though most of them speak english fairly well. Might be because we played in german and most players hated to translate on the fly/ speak "denglish" during a game.
After all it's personal taste. All of us thought german 3.5 .far superior to any 1 or 2e translation (making the translation quality rumour all the more strange).
Regarding "Lich" = "Lurch": a classic. You can find it in the translation of "Elminster - Making of a Mage" and all following volumes of this series.
Nope.
Lich was translated as "Leichnam" (dead body) in german 3e/ 3.5.
What Lanx said.
And Leichnam's another jewel. Whenever one of those GMs who insisted on using all the German words - even those who suffer from chronic and terminal suckage - told us about the Leichnam in the room, it took me a while till I realised he didn't mean a stiff, but a powerful undead spellcaster.
While lich does mean corpse, it's a quite old term, not really in circulation any more. Leichnam still is a common word for corpse, though.
I also heard that the prices for English language books were less than the German translated equivalents. Is that true?
Most of those I play with go for the English stuff, too - in my main group (which evolved from my first 3e group ever), some people had a few German books in the past, but took them as incentive to learn to use English books.
Bad transitions are almost a tradition here. Translated terms sounding boring and/or lame are the least. Interpreting missile as rocket rather than something that comes flying at you is more awful. Turning "lich" into "Lurch" (more or less "lizard") eats the cake. And those are only those I can think of right now.
Same with me and my group and all the groups i have played before. I only saw 2 german 3.0 / 3.5 player's handbooks since 3.0 came out (and one of these was mine just to see what they have done).
I don't know why, but translations are often silly and boring and errors creep in. In my opinion english is a much "simpler language" in regards to explaining things. Not to speak of the lack of paper and binding qualities of german books (and not only D&D books but other RPG-books, too). They look cheaper, feel cheaper and are actually more expensive. Example from my gaming store: english 4e PHB: 21 Euros. German one: 35.- Euro. Ridiciulous.
I also heard that the prices for English language books were less than the German translated equivalents. Is that true?
Yes, generally. I think one reason is that they just take the price and change it to Euros. So for example, Beta costs $25. German version will cost €25. Nevermind that $25 are less than €20.
Plus, prices for German books are fixed, so a roleplaying book cannot be sold cheaper - but English ones can, and often are.
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Ok. This seems to turn into a longer excursion from thread topic. ;-)
Regarding prices of german translations: Yes, they generally tend to be more expensive. This might be because of translation and licence costs, but also to no small extent because german language generally takes up more "character space" than english. Be it a novel, a rpg book, or a cooking book. English tends to be "briefer". ;-)
There are some exceptions regarding pricing like the well translated 3e FRCS (english version: 320 pages, german version: 332 pages + 40 page addendum for the same content, yet priced at 25 EUR in contrast to 39 USD for the english version)
Your other remarks are certainly true to some extent, too. But I observed again and again also those gamers in Germany who are generaly proud of not using german books. These people also call DSA (-> "The Dark Eye") inferior just because it's a german game system. It's not just the quality of the books, it's an attitude.
It seems to be some kind of segregation from newbies, too.
I rarely met any starting player with this sentiment. Maybe it's part of belonging to the "elite" of D&D players, maybe it's just because sooner or later you will have to purchase english books, too - no german publisher ever managed to publish german books of all products created by his chosen d20/ D&D licencer.
My D&D/ d20 library consists of both english and german books. I used both 3e and 3.5 core books in both languages - there was not the least difference in layout or binding quality, and the translation quality at least of 3.5 is in my opinion the best of the D&D editions so far (and yes, one "lurch" in 3e or one "wyvern" in 3.5 didn't make me condemn the overall rule translation quality - bad translations of places or character names can be considerably more painful!).
Sometimes german translations even exceed the quality of the original: The german version of the only official 3e/ 3.5 non WotC D&D setting "Kingdoms of Kalamar" is published by Games-In in Munich: They didn't just update 3e english modules to 3.5 stats, they also eradicated many errors of the original products and even received praise from WotC for their good job.
Back to topic: All the more astonishing to me that Feder & Schwert seems to falter after their good work on 3.5. I am also a late but enthusiastic convert to Warhammer Fantasy RPG, published in german by the same company: The german books are of the same high quality as their 3.5 books. Bindings are even superior because all of their WH RPG books are published as hard covers (in contrast to the english versions).
I am really curious about the real reasons for the ending of F&S's engagement with D&D. And I am turning somewhat nervous about release date and quality of any upcoming german Pathfinder product. :(
Cheers,
Günther
Chief Technical Officer
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Regarding prices of german translations: Yes, they generally tend to be more expensive. This might be because of translation and licence costs, but also to no small extent because german language generally takes up more "character space" than english. Be it a novel, a rpg book, or a cooking book. English tends to be "briefer". ;-)
All of those things are true, though you missed a really big one: per-copy print costs go down as you print more units, and since most translated editions don't approach the sales volumes of their original-language counterparts, the higher unit cost is probably the biggest single contributor to the higher costs of localized editions.
(On the other hand, publishers of translations don't generally have to spend the high costs associated with writing, development, and especially art, so it's not all bad...)
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Chief Technical Officer
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I am really curious about the real reasons for the ending of F&S's engagement with D&D. And I am turning somewhat nervous about release date and quality of any upcoming german Pathfinder product. :(
Why? Ulisses Spiele is our licensee; what F&S or 4E do has no significant bearing on them, except that it creates perhaps an even *better* opportunity for them to establish the Pathfinder RPG as a leading system in Germany.
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Your other remarks are certainly true to some extent, too. But I observed again and again also those gamers in Germany who are generaly proud of not using german books. These people also call DSA (-> "The Dark Eye") inferior just because it's a german game system. It's not just the quality of the books, it's an attitude.
That is indeed an attitude and a stupid one at that. There are at least two high class german RPGS. The Dark Eye and (my favorite one) Midgard - Das Fantasy Rollenspiel.. The latter was never translated into english an I wonder why, as it is, IMHO, the game with the best advancement mechanics.
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All of those things are true, though you missed a really big one: per-copy print costs go down as you print more units, and since most translated editions don't approach the sales volumes of their original-language counterparts, the higher unit cost is probably the biggest single contributor to the higher costs of localized editions.
EDITED DUE TO KNOTTED FINGERS ;-)
Hi Vic,
thanks for peaking into this thread!
Of course you are right: economies of scale!
And actually I should have known anyway. I know from one of Ulisses' competitors for your licence that they tried to solve this issue by letting several PF products be printed at the same time. This results in higher stock costs, though... Life of a licencee isn't easy...
Regarding any connection between F&S and Ulisses: There is no direct one. - I am just concerned about a trend coming to an end: ever improving D&D translation quality with each consecutive edition.
I hope that Ulisses will prove to offer superior quality. Communication of Ulisses about german PF unfortunately proved to be - reluctant. I read on their messageboard that there is to be a significant announcement this week. I am really curious!
Btw does their licence include the right to create PF products of their own which could in return be translated to english? ;-)
Kr,
Guenther
These people also call DSA (-> "The Dark Eye") inferior just because it's a german game system. It's not just the quality of the books, it's an attitude.
Actually, I have a somewhat low opinion of DSA because of how it started: The very same guy who first translated D&D into German happened to publish his own RPG a short time after he was done with the translation, and they weren't exactly totally different.
Beyond that, I don't know that much about DSA, though I do have to say that I didn't like the parts of the game I saw that much. I remember the previous edition, that still had old D&D's race/class fusions, so you could play a fighter. Or an elf. But not an elf fighter, because elf was a different hero type than fighter. I never liked that concept, and D&D did away with it a lot earlier. Still, all old stuff, and right now I just don't care much either way. I have PF, that's enough Fantasy RPG for me.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Btw does their licence include the right to create PF products of their own which could in return be translated to english?
We think it's pretty important to keep a close rein on the development of Golarion... plus, they've got a lot of stuff to translate before they worry about running out of material!
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I've heard the quality of the German translations were kind of lacking too, but then, every German player I've ever talked to just gets the English versions (not surprising, since I talk to them on English-language websites).
FYI, Scott Rouse is going to Europe pretty soon on business. I'd think that this would be one of things he has to deal with while he's over there.
I will try to be fair: Nope, usually German translations are good, if not excellent...., that is, taking into account one is not used to the original English text. My problem (and i guess its the same with others who are fluent with the English language to enjoy any book in its "non-translated version") is that by comparing the original with the translation (no matter what language) one finds the translation lacking. The reason for this is simple. Some words, phrases or names (to name only a few examples) don't translate very well into another language.
As an Example: tasslehoff burrfoot from the Dragonlace Novels sound s like a fun character. The name implies a lot of different characteristics (Burr = Rose i. e. thorny, stings, or even sticks to one/something just like a burr...and that in connection with hiss feet...well, the name is hilarious)
Translated into German, one does not get all those different meanings...the translator has to decide on one "aspect".... and that will sound stupid...something late "Rosefoot", or Thornyfeet, Stickfoot.... well, I guess you'll get my meaning. Thus the translator decided to give old Tass a new name, one that is more fitting with the German language, like Tolpan Barfuß (Barfuß meaning barefoot, where as Tolpan does not have an actual meaning but the name implies that the owner of that name might be clumsy or or a klutz in certain ways. So, while the "New-German-Name" for this, our favorite Kender implies something in regards to the character which its original name does not (to a non-english-speaking-audience) the German name turned out to become the object of ridicule to those of us (including me) who had a fairly decent grip of english. Also, certain puns, or the use of the english language does not make sense when translated word for word.
Translations are done for those who need them, and not all can be translated to keep it exactly as in the original, quite often a translator has to improvise to keep the story smooth.
But yes, there are really bad translations. A torch has been translated to "flashlight", or "cutting torch" (such done with the translation of the AD&D 2nd Edition (if I remember correctly), which does not make sense in any fantasy setting.....and shows the use of either a bad translation program or an overpaid, no use for nothing translator. But that was more than 20 years ago, RPGs have been a new market here in the Old World, no bigger company had the guts or the vision to jump on the wagon......and the company who has been responsible was really small.... and did not pay that well.... me remembers.... yep, the good old times... I kind of miss them....
Today, translations are something else. Translators usually are roleplayers themselves, thus knowing what they translate. Companies that take on a project are experienced in the genre, and know
that there is a market. Its not an experiment any more where one has to check the market for.
As someone mentioned "German RPGs" as DSA (Das Schwarze Auge) as being called " a bad game" or "stupid game", which it ain't nowadays, or never was (taking in account my above words), keep in mind that people who did not like it, usually come from a stock whose first experience was D&D or AD&D. Compared then, it did seem ridiculous or bad, (taking for example that a plastic mask was supplied with the "game masters box" (rumors even suggested that there was a mask consisting made out of chocolate in a few limited edition boxes.....this has not been proven to me so far), the published adventures have not been that good a quality in regards of writing style and/or storyline, compared with AD&D mods(neither are older AD&D mods from the early 1980s compared with "Paizos Own" for example, at least in my view.
Also (and here I finally end my drivel), keep in mind that the "original" will always be "felt" as the better thing, the second or third sequel of a movie usually not be counted as good as the first one (i.e. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, The Conan TV Series compared with the Schwarzenegger Movies, Dragonlace Chronicles with any of the following books, Hersheys and other chocolate brands, George Washington and George W., San Diego Padres and ....nope, I better stop here, The Padres Rule.... well as least in my opinion...and they will win the world series.....soon).
END OF slipslop...........till the next threat....I Hope I am still not placed into the jerk file. Although....its getting close...ouch....ok...I'll be quiet....mercy....
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To derail this thread further: There are actually some translations from english to german that are better than the original.
I found that "Life of Brian" was funnier in german than in english.
Terry Prtachett acknowledged that some Discworld translations are funnier in german than english (to lazy to look up the quote).
And I think that Warhammer FRP actually plays better in german than english because the empire has a destinct medival german feel. Most of the Town an City Names are of German orign (though many are nonsensical)
I found that "Life of Brian" was funnier in german than in english.
I do know that Ritter der Kokusnuss feels like a whole different movie than MP and the Holy Grail.
Terry Prtachett acknowledged that some Discworld translations are funnier in german than english (to lazy to look up the quote).
Really? I wouldn't even dare to get translated Discworld - too many puns in there, and they don't translate well.
If you stumble across the quote, or the info about which books he was talking about, don't hesistate to tell us!
Your other remarks are certainly true to some extent, too. But I observed again and again also those gamers in Germany who are generaly proud of not using german books. These people also call DSA (-> "The Dark Eye") inferior just because it's a german game system. It's not just the quality of the books, it's an attitude.
So, are there any English translations of DSA out there these days? My German is terrible. I would have to struggle just to come up with a "Donde esta el bano?" equivalent these days (and that's a ~n, not an n there, but I'm too lazy to figure out how to post non-English characters...).
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So, are there any English translations of DSA out there these days? My German is terrible. I would have to struggle just to come up with a "Donde esta el bano?" equivalent these days (and that's a ~n, not an n there, but I'm too lazy to figure out how to post non-English characters...).
According to wikipedia english "Das schwarze Auge"-products are available under the english brand "The Dark Eye" since 2006.
Cheers,
Günther
Your other remarks are certainly true to some extent, too. But I observed again and again also those gamers in Germany who are generaly proud of not using german books. These people also call DSA (-> "The Dark Eye") inferior just because it's a german game system. It's not just the quality of the books, it's an attitude.
That is indeed an attitude and a stupid one at that. There are at least two high class german RPGS. The Dark Eye and (my favorite one) Midgard - Das Fantasy Rollenspiel.. The latter was never translated into english an I wonder why, as it is, IMHO, the game with the best advancement mechanics.
Well, I can only speak of myself and the guys I played with, we started AD&D in 1981, and there weren't any german translations available then. And since then, until today, the english rulebooks were sort of obligatory - we grew up with the english names of spells and magic items, and the german translations just didn't feel right...
When DSA first appeared, the publishers tried to add some mysticism to the game by adding a black mask (with a black third eye in the middle...) which the GM was required to wear during the game. That was just ridiculous! The mask was abandoned later, but the image of a masked GM got stuck in our heads, and playing DSA was out of question ever since.
Midgard, on the other hand was a fantastic game system which we played quite often and for many years - partly thanks to a great campaign by a brilliant GM, set in Arthurian Britain.
And it wasn't about the presentation of the game - it came in two little books (about 4" by 6") which looked like written with a broken typewriter and then photocopied.
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Well, I can only speak of myself and the guys I played with, we started AD&D in 1981, and there weren't any german translations available then. And since then, until today, the english rulebooks were sort of obligatory - we grew up with the english names of spells and magic items, and the german translations just didn't feel right...
We started with the D&D red box german translation in 83. Later we switched to AD&D. Since then it was always "Magic Missile" for us an never "Magisches Geschoss".
Midgard, on the other hand was a fantastic game system which we played quite often and for many years - partly thanks to a great campaign by a brilliant GM, set in Arthurian Britain.
And it wasn't about the presentation of the game - it came in two little books (about 4" by 6") which looked like written with a broken typewriter and then photocopied.
We only started with Midgard 2nd edition. The DIN A4 Books. But it was and is a very good game.
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We started with the D&D red box german translation in 83. Later we switched to AD&D. Since then it was always "Magic Missile" for us an never "Magisches Geschoss".
By the way, this is a good example for the limitations Feder & Schwert faced regarding any improvements of older (and sometimes lacking) translations. They basically had to use old translattions made by their predecessor AMIGO to ensure continuity for those customers used to those translations. As I understand this was even part of the license because it was WotC's thinking that translatory continuity was quite important.
And I think that's a problem Ulisses faces as well. Unlike F&S (at least I assume) there are no restrictions imposed by Paizo as far as the translations are concerned. But if Ulisses means to stay true to the spirit of the Pathfinder Products (compatibility to the old 3.5 books being very important), they have to think hard about what to change and what not. "Magisches Geschoss" is a well-established term in Germany; if they change it into another (probably better) translation, chances are that they annoy those parts of the customer base used to the old one.
And it's not necessarily a good idea to do so just to satisfy other customers which probably will buy the english original nonetheless.