| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, the new and improved ruffian can sneak attack with all weapons, assuming that they aren’t more than d6 damage if martial or advanced. Die size increases do count against this. And … three weapon traits mess with it.
I assume Fatal shouldn’t affect it since it only applies on a critical hit. I just wonder about Two Hand (and its antithesis, Jousting). If a rogue tries to snea attack with an earthbreaker, will they lose sneak attack damage if they two-hand d10 it? And can that same rogue mount up and lance someone one-handed with sneak damage?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ruffian says "(Apply any abilities that alter the damage die size first.)"
So yes, two handing the earthbreaker would absolutely mean no sneak attack. You're swinging a D10 weapon, not a D6.
It really is as simple as "if the dice you're rolling for damage are D8s, D10s or D12s, you don't roll your precision dice, and it doesn't matter how you got there".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fatal is going to turn off your sneak attack when you crit, which feels weird but isn't actually terrible.
If a 12th level rogue crits with pick with the greater striking rune they would roll 7d10 for damage, whereas with a regular hit plus sneak attack would roll 3d6+3d6 precision. So criting with a fatal weapon is still more damage, it's just not an incredible amount of damage on a rogue.
The value of the 2-hand trait, I figure is that sometimes you're going to fight things that are immune to precision damage.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Haven't seen the remaster yet, but as I understand the math:Fatal is going to turn off your sneak attack when you crit, which feels weird but isn't actually terrible.
If a 12th level rogue crits with pick with the greater striking rune they would roll 7d10 for damage, whereas with a regular hit plus sneak attack would roll 3d6+3d6 precision. So criting with a fatal weapon is still more damage, it's just not an incredible amount of damage on a rogue.
The value of the 2-hand trait, I figure is that sometimes you're going to fight things that are immune to precision damage.
- Your Pick will hit for 3d6+3d6 (avg 21) and crit for 7d10 (38.5 avg)
- An equivalent Shortsword would hit for 3d6+3d6 (avg 21) and crit for 6d6+6d6 (42 avg)
I think the goal is not to make the pick better than the shortsword but simply to make sure the pick is not critting for 7d10+6d6, which would be too much damage.
Any good d6 deadly weapon that isn't the rapier?
Katana, Machete, and Mambele are all viable Ruffian options but my personal favorite is the Urumi since it's a very fun "rogue" weapon since it's so concealable (you wear it as a belt.)
Any good d6 deadly weapon that isn't the rapier?Katana, Machete, and Mambele are all viable Ruffian options but my personal favorite is the Urumi since it's a very fun "rogue" weapon since it's so concealable (you wear it as a belt.)
While the PF1 version could be worn as a belt, the PF2 version doesn't seem to have that text. And it wasn't really concealed when wrapped around your waist. It just didn't require a scabbard to store it.
This reminds me how much I loved the Bladed Belt. Sigh.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any good d6 deadly weapon that isn't the rapier?
Tamchal Chakram and Zulfikar fit too: they are advanced and have clear ancestry/culture for Unconventional Weaponry.
Myself, I'm happy to have a build for a Polytool: Agile, Modular (B/P/S) 1 tool/weapon for your every need.
Any good d6 deadly weapon that isn't the rapier?Katana, Machete, and Mambele are all viable Ruffian options but my personal favorite is the Urumi since it's a very fun "rogue" weapon since it's so concealable (you wear it as a belt.)While the PF1 version could be worn as a belt, the PF2 version doesn't seem to have that text. And it wasn't really concealed when wrapped around your waist. It just didn't require a scabbard to store it.
This reminds me how much I loved the Bladed Belt. Sigh.
I just think "that's a property of how the weapon, in reality was used" and doesn't necessarily need text to inform you of this, much like how you don't need to be told you can use a spear as a pole or a battle axe to chop wood.
I just find the restriction of d6 Martial Weapons silly, please make it d8 in a future Errata just because the Aldori Dueling Sword is a one-handed d8 finesse weapon...Or I've see Elven Curve Blade rogue before.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just think "that's a property of how the weapon, in reality was used" and doesn't necessarily need text to inform you of this, much like how you don't need to be told you can use a spear as a pole or a battle axe to chop wood.Any good d6 deadly weapon that isn't the rapier?Katana, Machete, and Mambele are all viable Ruffian options but my personal favorite is the Urumi since it's a very fun "rogue" weapon since it's so concealable (you wear it as a belt.)While the PF1 version could be worn as a belt, the PF2 version doesn't seem to have that text. And it wasn't really concealed when wrapped around your waist. It just didn't require a scabbard to store it.
This reminds me how much I loved the Bladed Belt. Sigh.
The only images I've ever seen of an urumi wrapped around someone's waist looked like a sword wrapped around their waist. While convenient, it doesn't seem concealed to me.
And unlike some other weapons, like the sword cane, the urumi lacks the concealable trait. So I don't see how it would be easily concealable in-game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only images I've ever seen of an urumi wrapped around someone's waist looked like a sword wrapped around their waist. While convenient, it doesn't seem concealed to me.
It pretty much looked like a metal belt with a big hilt jutting out of it. I haven't seen one with a hilt that 'blended in' to be anything other than a weapon handle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just find the restriction of d6 Martial Weapons silly, please make it d8 in a future Errata just because the Aldori Dueling Sword is a one-handed d8 finesse weapon...Or I've see Elven Curve Blade rogue before.
Don't bet on it. Keep in mind that the niche for 'swing big weapon for big hurty numbers' is not a rogue, ruffian or no. I'm sure Paizo thinks that anyone who wants to rack up damage with a d10 or d12 base damage die is going to be going into the more conventional two-handed martial classes.
As far as good sneak attack weapons for ruffians, based on what's been mentioned ...
- The flail is nice for trippiness. Which makes the enemy off-guard. Mwahaha.
- Mambeles are deadly (which doesn't mess with damage dice) and throwable. In case someone thinks being fifteen feet farther from you will help avoid issues.
- As mentioned, two-hand d10 weapons can help if you're against something you just can't flatfoot. Which makes that earthbreaker I mentioned seem useful for some fights, I guess.
- SHIELD. BOSS. (Or spikes, if you hafta like stab instead.)
- If Two-hand taketh away, then Jousting giveth. Mounted ruffians can one-hand a lance and sneak attack due to the Jousting d6 trait.
..and now I wonder how practical it would be to build a rogue as a knight in shining full plate armour with lance and bossed shield.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just find the restriction of d6 Martial Weapons silly, please make it d8 in a future Errata just because the Aldori Dueling Sword is a one-handed d8 finesse weapon...Or I've see Elven Curve Blade rogue before.
You can use these on any rogue you want, because they're finesse weapons. The ruffian just expands the class of weapons you can sneak attack with beyond "an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack."
So if you want to sneak attack with a d8 melee weapon with a Ruffian it needs to have agile or finesse. So the curve blade, spiked chain, dueling spear, and dueling blade are all fair game for the Ruffian as well as any other rogue. They're just not going to let you sneak attack with a fauchard, or a naginata, or a dwarven long hammer.
I just find the restriction of d6 Martial Weapons silly, please make it d8 in a future Errata just because the Aldori Dueling Sword is a one-handed d8 finesse weapon...Or I've see Elven Curve Blade rogue before.
You can Sneak Attack with those weapons anyway, though, because they have the Finesse trait. The damage-dice limit for ruffian weapons only applies to weapons that lack the Agile or Finesse traits.
Outside of a rare few exceptions, all weapons with the Agile/Finesse trait(s) are limited to d4/d6 damage dice. So putting a d6 cap on martial ruffian weapons seems to be an intentional design choice to prevent ruffians from immediately outclassing all the other rackets in terms of damage output.
d8 simple weapons work, of course, but the trade-off there is that the few d8 simple weapons that exist generally don't have any weapon traits. (The longspear has Reach and the thundermace has Backswing, but that's about it.) So your base damage is higher in exchange for your weapons not having other useful traits that d6 martial weapons might have.
You can use these on any rogue you want, because they're finesse weapons.
I think that's his point though; that the game balance doesn't break down with current non-simple d8 finesse weapons so he doesn't see why there is a restriction on non-simple d8 non-finesse weapons.
Spiked Chain [Martial, Disarm, Trip], Dueling Spear [Martial, Disarm, Versatile S] and Elven Curve Blade [Martial, Forceful] are all d8 martial weapons the ruffian can use already with those traits to use [finesse removed since they aren't using it] so IMO it's a valid question to ask why the d6 was required for the other d8 weapons with similar stats. For instance, what about a Trident [Martial, Thrown 20'] looks stronger than a Dueling Spear [Martial, Disarm, Versatile S]? Or a Longsword [Martial, Versatile P] vs an Elven Curve Blade [Martial, Forceful]?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can use these on any rogue you want, because they're finesse weapons.I think that's his point though; that the game balance doesn't break down with current non-simple d8 finesse weapons so he doesn't see why there is a restriction on non-simple d8 non-finesse weapons.
Spiked Chain [Martial, Disarm, Trip], Dueling Spear [Martial, Disarm, Versatile S] and Elven Curve Blade [Martial, Forceful] are all d8 martial weapons the ruffian can use already with those traits to use [finesse removed since they aren't using it] so IMO it's a valid question to ask why the d6 was required for the other d8 weapons with similar stats. For instance, what about a Trident [Martial, Thrown 20'] looks stronger than a Dueling Spear [Martial, Disarm, Versatile S]? Or a Longsword [Martial, Versatile P] vs an Elven Curve Blade [Martial, Forceful]?
I didn't think of that, to be honest. The main thing that comes to mind instead are other d8 weapons ... glaives, fauchards, bo staves, horsechoppers, becs de corbin, and so on. Do you think they were trying less to exclude longswords and more to keep most polearms out?
I think the issue is the trident and pole arms. Getting level 1 access to the hatchet is pretty awesome though. Sweep working with thrown weapons makes for the most accurate weapon option a rogue can have.
I think the issue is the trident and pole arms.
I don't get that though: there plenty of pole arm adjacent options weapons. longspear, Breaching Pike, Elven Branched Spear, Filcher's Fork, Lance [mounted], Lancer and Switchscythe work with it so the ascetic and abilities of "the trident and pole arms" can already be used. I can use a pole reach weapon to sneak attack and use a multipronged forked weapon [Filcher's Fork] to sneak attack [and could pre-remaster] already so it seems odd to go out of the way to officially avoid those weapons in the martial/advanced categories.
Do you think they were trying less to exclude longswords and more to keep most polearms out?
It's possible, but I can't see a why that is offhand: there might be some weapon they wanted to avoid but I don't see one that is out of place with allowable options now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
guys, you miss out on abig thing here
Slag May Changeling + Wrestler archetype
you can grapple, make the enemy basically permanently off-guard with a d6 unarmed grapple attack, which means that you can make
Sneak Attack Suplex!!!!
Slag May claws still can't sneak attack. That only works with the same unarmed attacks it already worked with. Ruffian's racket ability only affects weapons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
guys, you miss out on abig thing here
Slag May Changeling + Wrestler archetype
you can grapple, make the enemy basically permanently off-guard with a d6 unarmed grapple attack, which means that you can make
Sneak Attack Suplex!!!!
As noted, slag mays can't sneak with their claws. This is why amurruns are better wrestlers.