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In my opinion, making Initiative a skill was one of the best things about the Star Wars SAGA RPG. True, it would eliminate the need for Improved Initiative (since Skill Focus: Initiative would take its place), but it would make Initiative more than a static number based on Dexterity and one feat.
When Alpha first came out, we playtested Pathfinder using a more condensed skill list (based on SW SAGA) with this addition, since Pathfinder had some nailing down thier skill system at first.
Don't get me wrong, I like most of what Pathfinder has done with skills. And obviously, Jason sees room for improvement (or at least clarification) too. I think that Initiative as a skill, allowed to all the "Martial" classes would make a welcome addition.
Director of Games
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Hmm... it is an interesting idea I have seen floating around for a while now. Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I remember that when I read that in Star Wars SAGA, my first thought was "Of course!" - it just seemed so natural. It would certainly be interesting to try.
Without a base bump in skill points for the 2 skill classes[most of which are melee classes] I would not do this one. It is a really nice skill but makes it an almost have to have. And they just don't have the skills
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Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).
This is one of the only issues I foresee too. That is one of the only reasons I have been a surporter of the "minimum 4 + Int skill Points" mechanic that also sems to rear up. The classes that have "2 + INT skill points" seem to suffer from a lack of ability to customize.
For example:
A player who would like his Fighter to have Knowledge: Nobility as a skill is penalized twice for that roleplaying decision. Once by it not being a class skill (no bonus +3), and again by a lack of skill points (unless he is really INT). Thus roleplaying and character development is pushed aside for mechanic. Yet the same PC who takes a dip into Paladin gains the class skill and some pretty cool features without roleplaying or development (purely mechanics).
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Without a base bump in skill points for the 2 skill classes[most of which are melee classes] I would not do this one. It is a really nice skill but makes it an almost have to have. And they just don't have the skills
i agree
while my cleric needs this urgently (dex 10 and no improved initiative feat)...but i just don't have enough skills... and i extend my 5 skills as much as i can (2 base, int 14, and prefered class)Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).This is one of the only issues I foresee too. That is one of the only reasons I have been a surporter of the "minimum 4 + Int skill Points" mechanic that also sems to rear up. The classes that have "2 + INT skill points" seem to suffer from a lack of ability to customize.
For example:
A player who would like his Fighter to have Knowledge: Nobility as a skill is penalized twice for that roleplaying decision. Once by it not being a class skill (no bonus +3), and again by a lack of skill points (unless he is really INT). Thus roleplaying and character development is pushed aside for mechanic. Yet the same PC who takes a dip into Paladin gains the class skill and some pretty cool features without roleplaying or development (purely mechanics).
quite true
I have to say I don't like this idea.
It creates a must have skill, I think those sort of "choices" should be avoided were possible. It seems kind of all or nothing, if you have a high skill level seems like it's pretty much autowin initiative all the time, if you don't auto lose. It removes too much of the chance and variability of combat IMO.
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Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).This is one of the only issues I foresee too. That is one of the only reasons I have been a surporter of the "minimum 4 + Int skill Points" mechanic that also sems to rear up. The classes that have "2 + INT skill points" seem to suffer from a lack of ability to customize.
For example:
A player who would like his Fighter to have Knowledge: Nobility as a skill is penalized twice for that roleplaying decision. Once by it not being a class skill (no bonus +3), and again by a lack of skill points (unless he is really INT). Thus roleplaying and character development is pushed aside for mechanic. Yet the same PC who takes a dip into Paladin gains the class skill and some pretty cool features without roleplaying or development (purely mechanics).
Absolutely agree with this sentiment. As an alternative to just more skill points, classes could have special bonuses that were assigned only to class skills, or just certain skills defined by the class. If a fighter can have Climb bonuses, he can have Initiative bonuses as well, without having to go to a higher skill points level.
EDIT: Agree with the above poster though that an Initiative skill cannot possibly grant a full bonus to checks without all initiatives having to be rebalanced. Perhaps the Initiative skill grants you increasing levels of synergy bonus with the checks as you gain more ranks?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Colour me against it as well.
Jason, one of your complaints about Concentration was a 'skill tax' Making initaitive a skill taxes all the classes.
In my opinion, making Initiative a skill was one of the best things about the Star Wars SAGA RPG.
There's one small problem with turning Initiative into a skill: you'd have to give it to all the monsters, too, so they can keep up with the PCs.
-Matt
Maybe it'd not work in 3P, maybe save this for 3P 2nd Ed.?
I think one of the easiest ways to help some of classes out with initiative is to allow them to choose Wisdom instead of Dexterity for their initiative rolls. You can either be on the look out for trouble or you can wait until it happens and run on reflex. This helps the heavy armor fighters (who want the will save boost more than the HP boost), and the clerics too (who could never afford an initiative skill).
Also, you can make initiative a combination of both. This has the effect of stopping Wisdom being a dump stat (from the rogue/fighter school of "I'm going to fail my will save anyway", and the sorcerer/wizard school of "My will save class bonus will make up for it, allowing me to buy more points in Dexterity").
We've played with both as house rules under 3.0/3.5 and they work okay, giving the expected and desired results.
Basically, any rule that means Dex. does a little less than it currently does, is a good thing.... ;D
Peace,
tfad
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There's one small problem with turning Initiative into a skill: you'd have to give it to all the monsters, too, so they can keep up with the PCs.
Just use the abandoned skill points from consolidated skills like Spot and Listen.
I admit, Initiative as a skill takes some reworking, but no more than Rage powers, or Arcane School powers or a half a dozen other things introduced through Pathfinder.
As a suggestion, it has merit. As for the workings of it, it has some snags (as noted through the posts above).
Jason, one of your complaints about Concentration was a 'skill tax' Making initaitive a skill taxes all the classes.
Who would it be a class skill for?
Who -wouldn't- take it? People worry that Improved Initiative is a must have now. How about when Charlie Cleric is 10th level and has "Only" a +4 from improved init, and Robbie Rogue has a +13 from the skill, before dex, skill focus or anything.
It is just a thought to consider.
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Hmm... it is an interesting idea I have seen floating around for a while now. Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How about this -- offer a feat that let's you use your Acrobatics for your Initiative score? There's precedent -- Escape Artist is a substitute for a grapple check...
I don't like it as a skill, however having more feats that allow for initiative boosts isn't a bad idea.
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I think one of the easiest ways to help some of classes out with initiative is to allow them to choose Wisdom instead of Dexterity for their initiative rolls. You can either be on the look out for trouble or you can wait until it happens and run on reflex. This helps the heavy armor fighters (who want the will save boost more than the HP boost), and the clerics too (who could never afford an initiative skill).
Also, you can make initiative a combination of both. This has the effect of stopping Wisdom being a dump stat (from the rogue/fighter school of "I'm going to fail my will save anyway", and the sorcerer/wizard school of "My will save class bonus will make up for it, allowing me to buy more points in Dexterity").
Neat ideas. A lot of things could benefit from the either/or treatment. Saves? Will = Int or Cha, Fort = Str or Con, Refl = Dex or Wis. I'd actually love to see them based on both, but that would throw off the scale vs. current saves.
I'd vote no on Initiative the skill just because it'd be too easy a choice. At least with Improved Initiative as a feat I've got to weigh it against other feats I'd be losing out on.
I cannot really see the attraction of having Initiative as a skill. Mechanically, it would create a plethora of problems by becoming a 'must-have skill' for all classes and by increasing the gap between differential levels of opponents in combat. Sometimes great flavor can override mechanical concerns, but that is not the case here either, as thematically-speaking, Initiative is not a skill. My advice: Don't do it. Let's keep initiative separate from the skill system. When the time Patfinder RPG 2.0 comes along and backward compatibility with 3.5E will no longer be a concer, then issues such as this one can be revisited, but for now, let's keep it the way it is.
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Why do people with clerics want to go first? It has been my experience that going last as the cleric lets me react to the unfolding battlefield better, be it with buffs, or heals. Also their is a good chance by late in the round my friendly fighters have triggered an AO or two letting me move about the battlefield to deliver those buffs with a little more ease. Only against undead does it pay to go first, so unless it is an undead rich campaign then I don't want this as a skill, or see a need for it.
Why do people with clerics want to go first?
When the elf is down, bleeding like he's made of HP, and there's some evil beastie looming over him....
Well, he's hoping the cleric is going first, no matter what the cleric thinks....
;p
Peace,
tfad
How about this -- offer a feat that let's you use your Acrobatics for your Initiative score? There's precedent -- Escape Artist is a substitute for a grapple check...
Grapple check is BAB + other bonuses.
Escape artist is ranks + other bonuses.Acrobatics is ranks + other bonuses.
Initiative is nothing + other bonuses.
Both BAB and ranks can rise at speed of +1/level. This means them can be switched around without end number changing too much. Initiative lacks this sort of +1/level rate of growth. Using a skill instead of initiative would mean the initiative check just gained character level as a bonus to the roll.
Here's why turning Initiative into a skill is a very bad idea:
Monster HD and Monster CR are not always equal. Skill ranks are based on Monster HD, not Monster CR.
For example, a CR 7 Hill Giant could have 12 ranks in Initiative, +3 if it were to be a class skill for a Hill Giant, -1 from Dexterity 8, +4 if he takes Improved Initiative = +18 to initiative.
So suddenly, our super-slow Dex-8 Hill Giant is sporting a +18 to initiative. A 7th-level character would have to have (7 ranks +4 Improved Init +7 Dex = +18, thus...) 24 Dexterity to be just as "fast" as the Hill Giant.
The entire idea is based off of Star Wars Saga Edition, aka 4E Beta. If the rule were instituted we'd be pretending to have a Fourth Edition situation, where Initiative progresses at a rate of +1 per +1 level (+1/2 levels is the 4E Way).
But unfortunately, this isn't Fourth Edition. The monsters' skills go up by more than one rank per +1 CR.
-Matt
P.S. Editted example, because original example Skeleton can't have skill points.
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Here's why turning Initiative into a skill is a very bad idea:
Monster HD and Monster CR are not always equal. Skill ranks are based on Monster HD, not Monster CR.
For example, a CR 7 Cloud Giant Skeleton could have 17 ranks in Initiative, +3 if it were to be a class skill for a Skeleton, +2 from Dexterity 15, +4 from Improved Initiative = +26 to initiative.
Well, what about a feat (let's call it Quick Reflexes), with the prerequisite Improved Initiative that allows half the ranks invested in Acrobatics to be used as an Initiative bonus? That Cloud Giant Skeleton at best could have +8 for it's ranks (so +12 for two feats). That's not unreasonable at the high end of things.
If the Cloud Giant Skeleton could take ranks in Acrobatics (which it can't, with no skill points).
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Well, what about a feat (let's call it Quick Reflexes), with the prerequisite Improved Initiative that allows half the ranks invested in Acrobatics to be used as an Initiative bonus? That Cloud Giant Skeleton at best could have +8 for it's ranks (so +12 for two feats). That's not unreasonable at the high end of things.
Why not make it perception instead of Acrobatics? In theory the more perceptive you are, the more time you have to prepare. You needn't be extremely dexterous to start sooner. You just need to be fast if you start later than the perceptive one.
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Why not make it perception instead of Acrobatics? In theory the more perceptive you are, the more time you have to prepare. You needn't be extremely dexterous to start sooner. You just need to be fast if you start later than the perceptive one.
Sure! And if that's the case, it doesn't have to be tied to Improved Initiative
HARD TO SURPRISE (General)
You are tuned to your surroundings, and notice things out of place. When trouble arises, you are quick to notice it.
Prerequisite: Perception 2 ranks
Benefit: You gain a bonus to your Initiative equal to half your ranks in Perception.
Hmm... it is an interesting idea I have seen floating around for a while now. Although I can see the utility of making Initiative a skill, it does make it a must have for a number of classes, some of which are a bit strapped for skill points (and increasing that number is not much of an option at this point).
Thoughts?
Yes.
The thing about using skill for initiative in SWSE is that untrained skills still progress at half your level. It's not a drain on your skill resources. Though I hate that rule, in that context, it works.
As Pathfinder has (thankfully, IMO) not chosen to go with that convention, I think you are better off without initiative as a skill.
I vote no against Init as a skill.
It breaks backwards compatibility. It is a must have skill (thus a skill point tax) and it favors monsters HD (which increase faster than PC levels).
How about a link between initiative and BAB then?
Just stirring the pot....
Peace,
tfad
Ehhh, same problem arises. An attempt to scale Initiative the way Fourth Edition does, but because Pathfinder is not Fourth Edition, the idea not only fails, but is unwanted by, well, people who aren't playing Fourth Edition.
-Matt
How about a link between initiative and BAB then?
- there is no bout of dicerolling for initiative at the beginning of each combat
Where's the fun in that? ;p
Peace,
tfad
There is a simpler remedy that doesn't tax the skill points & lets initiative improve with level. Initiative is a REFLEX thing. Why not make Initiative equal to a Ref save?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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There is a simpler remedy that doesn't tax the skill points & lets initiative improve with level. Initiative is a REFLEX thing. Why not make Initiative equal to a Ref save?
Makes sense to me. Opposed reflex saves. DMs may choose to save time by having monsters initative=10+reflex.
Honestly, why the hell would we want to add more complication to the system? Maybe a greater improved initiative feat for people who really want to focus on it, but come on, it's not exactly broken as is. You want a system that scales with level, whereas monsters would have to scale for fairness....in the current system, you and monsters have roughly equal initiative scores, so....it actually stays even by not scaling. Why are we reinventing the wheel?
I have a little insight into this debate. I ran a Marshal with a 31 Charisma (18 Base, +2 Draconic, +5 points from leveling, +6 magic) with the Motivate Dexterity Aura. Our party was DISGUSTING. We killed everything before it could even attack once.
If there is a chance a new system could unbalance initiative like that (Like every PC dumping max ranks into it) then then I hope the new system never sees the pages of a core book. It will turn into an arms race essentially with the DM trying to get the monsters initiative up so he can actually challenge the PC's.
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Don't make Initiative a skill there is no reason for another skill tax. If we want more ways to boost Initiative add more feats Greater Init or whatever. A better choice would be some feats that focused on other aspects and also added a small boost 1 or 2 to Init. Forgotten realms had a +2 spot Init Blooded I think.
Initiative? A skill? Hells no. Everyone will take it, it will suck up one skill point per level for every character, and you'll be back right where you originally started, but with inflated numbers.
If you want higher Initiative Bonuses, add more feats. But creating an Initiative skill is NOT the way to go.
Why are we trying to complicate initiative? I would rather simplify it. It's a simple D20 role... no modifiers to it... just what you role.
If you want to specialize in it do it through feats. Improved Initiative may allow you to apply your Dex bonus to your initiative roll for instance, or it could apply a flat +2.
Overall though, it's really fine just the way it is. Why should we tamper with it?
Exactly why couldn't you do those things if initiative remained as it was in 3,5e? Possibility of adding +1/level to a roll does not make a roll do anything more or anything less than what you want it to do.
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Put my vote as an absolute, categorial 'NO' on making Initiative a skill. Right now, Initiative is fine the way that it is. The initiative skill would be taken by every PC, taking half of your average fighter's skill points while only one eighth of you average rogue's skill points.
I also do not have a problem with additional feats, such as Greater Initiative (+8 to initiative), followed by Supreme Initiative (+12). That way if you really, Really, REALLY want to go first you have to make a massive feat investment.
initiative link to level:
fighter-classes (high BAB):+1/2 level
medium BAB : +1/3 lvl
low BAB : +1/4 lvl
Close to my idea, but I still think just using the existing Ref Save is best. Jason could put in a Middle Save progression, but that may cause a big stink in the backwards compatibility.
Just let Improved Initiative be cumulative or something like that (or Greater Imp Init). I categorically don't want to see it as a skill. I don't like it much in SWSE either or in 4e.
Lower level opponents are already getting screwed because their attack bonuses can't keep up with PC defenses, why do they have to be that much slower as well? How many advantages do we really have to pile on top of the gap between higher level PCs and the mundanes around them?
Secondly, we have to ask, is the current initiative system really broken (enough) to warrent fixing.
IMO it's not broken
but...
why not use the number of the Ref.Save for Initiative?
after all, both are about how fast a character can react to danger.
increases with level, and reflexy classes have an advantage
Improved Initiative could be adjusted to giving an increasing bonus as well
Secondly, we have to ask, is the current initiative system really broken (enough) to warrent fixing.IMO it's not broken
but...
why not use the number of the Ref.Save for Initiative?
after all, both are about how fast a character can react to danger.increases with level, and reflexy classes have an advantage
Personally, I think that would be worse, as far as the game goes, than making it a skill. With a skill, the PC has the choice to invest in it or not. They may decide to improve their initiative, they may not and they get to decide how much the want to invest in it.
Using Ref saves removes the element of choice, which is particularly damaging to any character who doesn't get a favorable Ref save. And it consistently hoses lower hit dice vs higher hit dice creatures. A fight between a dire bear and a quickling probably shouldn't entail the bear winning initiative quite so often, statistically speaking.Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to conflate reflexive defensive measures with making and implementing quick decisions. Feat and skill choices both seem better suited to capture what a high initiative bonus should mean, the ability to quickly react in a decisive manner
Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to conflate reflexive defensive measures with making and implementing quick decisions. Feat and skill choices both seem better suited to capture what a high initiative bonus should mean, the ability to quickly react in a decisive manner
pretty good point, count me with the Nays to change then:
I'd feel taxed if it where made a skillInit = Dex + Wis + Feat would reflect the "ability to quickly react in a decisive manner" a bit more than just the Dex bonus
low Dex = too slow
low Wis = undecisive
I guess when adding two modifiers the Bonus from the Feat would have to increase to grant the same edge over people who haven't got it