So far one of the major complaints that has been following 4th ed is the limited at wills. This is especially prevalent when most of the PC's play humans and if are of the same class they only have 4 choices to choose 3 from.
As you can imagine there is a lack of variation due to this. Has anyone out there come up with new At-Wills they'd like to share?
So far one of the major complaints that has been following 4th ed is the limited at wills. This is especially prevalent when most of the PC's play humans and if are of the same class they only have 4 choices to choose 3 from.
As you can imagine there is a lack of variation due to this. Has anyone out there come up with new At-Wills they'd like to share?
I haven't found this to be a problem with my group. They equate the at-will powers to just "I swing my sword" in other editions (though the new at will powers do tend to have more flourish to them). The edition to the basic attack action of these at wills, plus the special encounter and daily powers make my group quite happy. YYMV.
It looks like Martial Power and the other power source books will be adding more at-wills (as do some of the Class Acts article in Dragon.)
For myself, I've been encouraging players to not bother telling me what attacks they are using, and just describe an action and then roll the dice (since I trust them to know what powers they are using and how those powers work.) It has only been somewhat successful thus far, however - but I think the concept is sound for adding a bit more action back into things.
My guys are just getting to grips with the powers still but I have been encouraging them to describe the actions rather than telling me the powers name.
I think the problem is each fighter ends up a bit clone like at lower levels because of the At-Wills being limited. It make sense really because there's only so much space in the book just could do with a slight variation on the At-Wills especially with the fighter as this sets the tone for the character at the start and too be honest I'd generally trust other players to come up with interesting( but not overpowered) abilities and whilst I'll be looking at the new books and maybe even buying them I'd still rather get some idea's from other players.A couple of ideas I had was 'Melee and Shield' similar to the Ranger Twin Strike but with Melee and Shield.
Style Specialisation where you replace the STR with the relevant stat ( DEX for spears or CON for Hammer and Maces). What do people think?
It looks like Martial Power and the other power source books will be adding more at-wills (as do some of the Class Acts article in Dragon.)
For myself, I've been encouraging players to not bother telling me what attacks they are using, and just describe an action and then roll the dice (since I trust them to know what powers they are using and how those powers work.) It has only been somewhat successful thus far, however - but I think the concept is sound for adding a bit more action back into things.
Some of the other players at my table do this.
Personally I just announce my power 'cause I spend the period between my turns wracking my brain for the coolest one liner or melee speak I can come up with. As long as it enhances the game its all good in my book.
So far one of the major complaints that has been following 4th ed is the limited at wills. This is especially prevalent when most of the PC's play humans and if are of the same class they only have 4 choices to choose 3 from.
As you can imagine there is a lack of variation due to this. Has anyone out there come up with new At-Wills they'd like to share?
I have come up with these so far based on the Ranger skill crossed with the old two handed style.
Melee & Shield Combo
At Will*Martial Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Required: Melee and Shield
Targets: one or two creatures
Attack: Str -2 vs AC (melee:main weapon and shield)
Hit: 1(W)+STR(main), 1D6(shield)
21st level Dam 2(W)+STR(main), 1D8(Shield)
Weapon Familiarity
At Will*Martial Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Required: Melee weapon
Attack: Ability vs AC
Hit: 1(W)+Ability
21st level 2(W)+STAT
Effect: This is a basic attack but using the STAT relevant to the weapon, as per the Fighters Weapon Familiarity( CON for Maces and hammers, DEX for spears etc).
What do you recon?
So far one of the major complaints that has been following 4th ed is the limited at wills. This is especially prevalent when most of the PC's play humans and if are of the same class they only have 4 choices to choose 3 from. As you can imagine there is a lack of variation due to this. Has anyone out there come up with new At-Wills they'd like to share?
My group (in our limited time with 4e) didn't find a problem with this -- we think it's still a a big improvement from earlier editions.
Most of us also think that, once you get a few levels, daily and encounter powers (which do offer more variety) will be used often enough that the limited at-wills will probably be less noticed.
And, of course, more books will improve the situation -- if you find that a suitable solution. My group tends to see 4e supplements as expensive Band-Aids, necessary because the first three books have some rather glaring omissions. We've bought few 3.5 supplements for our campaign (perhaps four or five between all of us), and don't want to feel compelled to change our spending habits.
And, of course, more books will improve the situation -- if you find that a suitable solution. My group tends to see 4e supplements as expensive Band-Aids, necessary because the first three books have some rather glaring omissions. We've bought few 3.5 supplements for our campaign (perhaps four or five between all of us), and don't want to feel compelled to change our spending habits.
To be honest I find it difficult to read entries that seems to have generally no constructive content in responses and have a high number of small digs about the genre, '4E supplements as expensive band aids' 'rather glaring omissions' and other similar. Please try something constructive and on topic.
As I said the 'AT-WILLs' are limited but understandable due to the book size but I would like to see alternative options that Players and DMs of 4th Edition have come up with.
To be honest I find it difficult to read entries that seems to have generally no constructive content in responses and have a high number of small digs about the genre, '4E supplements as expensive band aids' 'rather glaring omissions' and other similar. Please try something constructive and on topic.
I regret that my post was so upsetting to you -- I'll try to conform better to your expectations. I will also try to maintain the high standard of courtesy set by your response.
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currently I am playing a 2 handed weapon Human Fighter. I found the at wills limited.
I have to choose 3 out of 4 at wills.
The at Will involing a Shield is useless for me. So I basically had to take the 3 others.
But doing the math on a large Excel Spread Sheet it dawned upon me that "Sure Strike" (the one with a plus to hit and low damage) is a wasted at will for my PC. This is because the average damage per round will be lower if I use this at will for almost all ACs.
With my DMs permission I changed this at will against the rogue-multiclass feat (as this corresponds with my backstory).
Now I only have 2 at wills but that does not bother me.
So yes, more at wills to choose from would be good, but I do not need to have more at wills.
I regret that my post was so upsetting to you -- I'll try to conform better to your expectations. I will also try to maintain the high standard of courtesy set by your response.
Many thanks for offering the courtesy of conforming to my expectations. I'd say considering the amount of garbage that has been thrown around about 4E I just cannot see why you feel a need to continue the negative attitude on a Tread that is 4 Edition based.
I think everyone is fully aware of peoples attitudes toward the producing company without re-interating it. I only enter a thread on these forums to get peoples constructive responses to enriching the game that I like to play the same courtesy that I would expect to find on a Pathfinder Forum or 3.5 edition.
I like Pathfinder(better than 3rd ed) but it still has fundemental issues in my mind but that won't stop me enjoying it. I don't like Warhammer 40k or most things produced by the company but I see no sensible reason to go onto the GW forum and slate their products.
So please constructive criticisms would be gratefully recieved.
currently I am playing a 2 handed weapon Human Fighter. I found the at wills limited.
I have to choose 3 out of 4 at wills.
The at Will involing a Shield is useless for me. So I basically had to take the 3 others.
But doing the math on a large Excel Spread Sheet it dawned upon me that "Sure Strike" (the one with a plus to hit and low damage) is a wasted at will for my PC. This is because the average damage per round will be lower if I use this at will for almost all ACs.
With my DMs permission I changed this at will against the rogue-multiclass feat (as this corresponds with my backstory).
Now I only have 2 at wills but that does not bother me.
So yes, more at wills to choose from would be good, but I do not need to have more at wills.
This is what my players are finding. Thing is although they should be basic powers, they are should be defining ones. Also as a part of the game is too hit milestone (limit the use of encounter powers) it's hard to do when the fallback is limited like the AT-WILLs are.
In your case Tharen you can change your AT-WILL by retraining it you find one of them to have a better feel to it. Thing that I don't understand is the Rogue( and a couple of other class's) have new AT-WILLs at later levels which would have been nice for Fighters as an option.
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I don't like Warhammer 40k or most things produced by the company -snip-
Now Sir, that is a most unwelcome statement! I demand satisfaction! Please be so kind as to choose the weapons and the place.
I don't like Warhammer 40k or most things produced by the company -snip-Now Sir, that is a most unwelcome statement! I demand satisfaction! Please be so kind as to choose the weapons and the place.
** spoiler omitted **
I'll take you on the south field with D6's(because you can only use D6's)...hehe.
It's a long painful story about a young wargamer....just kidding and I am highjacking my own thread. But very funny nonetheless. :)
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This is what my players are finding. Thing is although they should be basic powers, they are should be defining ones. Also as a part of the game is too hit milestone (limit the use of encounter powers) it's hard to do when the fallback is limited like the AT-WILLs are.
I find that I try to conserve my powers and frequently use the at will ones. There is also always the consideration of doing a stunt (like toppling the statue on the Ogre), doing one of the other actions (trip, disarm etc.) or just attack and do a lot of damage.
Stunts are mostly dependent on environment, so I do these if possible and feasible. But in most other situations it makes more sense to do a lot of damage than try a combat action as other Classes have powers that have "inbuild" combat actions (eg. positioning strike of the rogue vs. Bullrush. So in the end I mostly use my at wills. Is it boring? Not yet. It might get boring in a year or so. But then we certainly will have some more at wills for the Fighter to choose from.I
n your case Tharen you can change your AT-WILL by retraining it you find one of them to have a better feel to it. Thing that I don't understand is the Rogue( and a couple of other class's) have new AT-WILLs at later levels which would have been nice for Fighters as an option.
Yes, that puzzles me too. When I know the system and workings of it better I probably will design a few at wills for the fighter.
Yes, that puzzles me too. When I know the system and workings of it better I probably will design a few at wills for the fighter.
I'd like to hear what you come up with. In the meantime I will come up with what I can for two handed fighters and produce it on here to get you to test.
In your case Tharen you can change your AT-WILL by retraining it you find one of them to have a better feel to it. Thing that I don't understand is the Rogue( and a couple of other class's) have new AT-WILLs at later levels which would have been nice for Fighters as an option.
The only at-wills that any classes get at later levels are utility powers.
ProsSteve, I have to say I think you overreacted in your response to Tatterdemalion. The first two things he said were contributing to the thread topic and complimented 4e.
My group (in our limited time with 4e) didn't find a problem with this -- we think it's still a a big improvement from earlier editions.
Most of us also think that, once you get a few levels, daily and encounter powers (which do offer more variety) will be used often enough that the limited at-wills will probably be less noticed.
Having run encounters for 4e characters from 1st through 17th level, I I agree with his instincts are correct. Characters still use at wills at that level, but the fact that there are just a few choices is not a big issue.
But doing the math on a large Excel Spread Sheet it dawned upon me that "Sure Strike" (the one with a plus to hit and low damage) is a wasted at will for my PC. This is because the average damage per round will be lower if I use this at will for almost all ACs.
There are situations where Sure Strike is a good choice. If you take the Hammer Rhythm feat, Reaping Strike becomes redundant. The minotaur great-weapon fighter in our party has boosted his damage to the point where it is better to have +2 to hit than to use a basic attack (or a Cleave with no secondary target) and add the attribute bonus to damage.
In your case Tharen you can change your AT-WILL by retraining it you find one of them to have a better feel to it. Thing that I don't understand is the Rogue( and a couple of other class's) have new AT-WILLs at later levels which would have been nice for Fighters as an option.The only at-wills that any classes get at later levels are utility powers.
ProsSteve, I have to say I think you overreacted in your response to Tatterdemalion. The first two things he said were contributing to the thread topic and complimented 4e.
Having run encounters for 4e characters from 1st through 17th level, I I agree with his instincts are correct. Characters still use at wills at that level, but the fact that there are just a few choices is not a big issue.My group (in our limited time with 4e) didn't find a problem with this -- we think it's still a a big improvement from earlier editions.
Most of us also think that, once you get a few levels, daily and encounter powers (which do offer more variety) will be used often enough that the limited at-wills will probably be less noticed.
I'm afraid whilst you and Tatterdemalion may have found the AT-WILL to be sufficient, my group along with Theram( and many others) have found them to create rather clone-like characters (especially) human fighters. As stated previously I understand that lack of space may have prevented additionals but I was hoping other more advanced gamers may have already come up with new options.
I also trust the judgement of Paizo Forum players\DM's on new Exploits so I await further AT-WILL entries.|
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There are situations where Sure Strike is a good choice. If you take the Hammer Rhythm feat, Reaping Strike becomes redundant. The minotaur great-weapon fighter in our party has boosted his damage to the point where it is better to have +2 to hit than to use a basic attack (or a Cleave with no secondary target) and add the attribute bonus to damage.
But Sure Strike is -as far as I remember withouth the Book at hand- +2 to hit with damage 1[W] without any attribute or feat bonuses to add!
This was why I found this power redundant.The PC is level 4 has a AB of +11 and a damage of 2d6+7. With Power Attack it is AB +9 and damage 2d6+10. I have Bracers of Mighty Strike. So a Base Attack with Power Attack will give me a AB +9 and a damage of 2d6+10.
BAB with PA is the best I can do up to AC 18
From AC 18-29 the best I can use is Reaping Strike without PA.
From AC 30 onwards it is Reaping Strike with PA (as only natural 20 hits anyway.
That calculation did not take into account any other bufs from party members or encouter powers or dailies.
All in all I am very happy with the damage output I can generate.
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-cool powers-
I like your ideas very much! In fact, I will try to use Weapon Masters' Strike in the game tomorrow. My DM hopefully will allow to test this power.
What I would change for clarity is "If no other creatures are adjacent to the target or yourself,..."
This does not take into account reach weapons or creatures that do not threaten you or the target but might be adjacent (like dying creatures for example).
Maybe use: "If neither you nor your target are threatened from other creatures,..."
-cool powers-I like your ideas very much! In fact, I will try to use Weapon Masters' Strike in the game tomorrow. My DM hopefully will allow to test this power.
What I would change for clarity is "If no other creatures are adjacent to the target or yourself,..."
This does not take into account reach weapons or creature that do not threaten you or the target (like dying creatures for example).Maybe use: "If neither you nor your target are threatened from other creatures,..."
Thanks Matthew they look pretty good. What do people recon of the Weapon Familarity Exploit that I'm suggesting where you can get the best STAT for the weapon your using. It seems to make a nice starting pointing for a specialist weapon fighter and I think fits with the fact that the Rogue uses his DEX for attacks, Wizard uses INT etc.
Let me know what you think?
But Sure Strike is -as far as I remember withouth the Book at hand- +2 to hit with damage 1[W] without any attribute or feat bonuses to add!
You lose attribute bonuses to damage, but you keep feat (Weapon Focus), item (Item Armbands of Power from Martial Power are particularly nice), enhancement (+1 to +6), or class (Kensei paragon path) bonuses to damage.
The minotaur also benefits from oversized weapons, so with a two-handed brute weapon his base damage is effectively 2d7+2. With Unyielding Avalanche he also does [1W] damage to all enemies who start his turn adjacent to him. At 17th level he's doing 24 average, which is the same amount he does on average with a Sure Strike.
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You lose attribute bonuses to damage, but you keep feat (Weapon Focus), item (Item Armbands of Power from Martial Power are particularly nice), enhancement (+1 to +6), or class (Kensei paragon path) bonuses to damage.
The minotaur also benefits from oversized weapons, so with a two-handed brute weapon his base damage is effectively 2d7+2. With Unyielding Avalanche he also does [1W] damage to all enemies who start his turn adjacent to him. At 17th level he's doing 24 average, which is the same amount he does on average with a Sure Strike.
What is his Str. bonus?
Sure Strike:** spoiler omitted **
Reaping Strike:
** spoiler omitted **
Power Attack:
** spoiler omitted **
Ohh... number crunching. I like. Very informative.
Ohh... number crunching. I like. Very informative.
Never worried about number crunching, only the visible results for me the DM and the Players.
Have checked out Martial Powers and there appears to be some very good new Exploits in it but I'm still trying to generate new AT-WILLs to customize my Players Individual experiences.
This problem pretty much goes away after the heroic tier. Once you hit paragon, you have 4 encounter powers and 4 daily powers in addition to your at-wills. You're going to be relying on those much more than your weak at will attacks. Also, paragon paths add a further layer of complexity to the game, allowing you to further customize your character.
This problem pretty much goes away after the heroic tier. Once you hit paragon, you have 4 encounter powers and 4 daily powers in addition to your at-wills. You're going to be relying on those much more than your weak at will attacks. Also, paragon paths add a further layer of complexity to the game, allowing you to further customize your character.
But if you are trying to get your players to go through milestones, they might want to retain their Encounter Powers for later encounters and due to which they'll still rely on their AT-WILLs.
Well, they may want to save their dailies, but they get their encounter powers each fight. That said, more at-will options is definitely not a bad thing, but I do think it is less of an issue by Paragon level.
At level 11, you have the following: 2 At-Wills, 4 Encounters Powers, 3 Daily Powers, plus a variety of magic items.
Good point, so it'll be just the Dailies that the player will need to leave or do without. That's not that bad. I had it in my head that milestones required NO RESTS between encounters.
Oops....that being the case my players are already going through a few encounters before taking an extended rest so I should have been dishing out a few more Action Points.