Cut the phony sense of entitlement. We're talking about a company you pay pennies on the hour in terms of the amount of entertainment you enjoy as a result of their work. The guys behind the development desks at WotC work their butts off for this hobby, and are every bit as much a fan of role-playing games as you are.
People will complain about anything because people love being able to express outrage at something. The same people who were "outraged" at not having an outline are the ones who are now "outraged" about the outline that they're given - including the handful that said they'd be happy with just a couple paragraphs on where the AP was headed.
This isn't how mature adults should be acting.
Your first statement assumes that one gets enjoyment out of their products. As it currently stands, I have gotten next to none from anything they have put out for almost a year. Given that a lot of that has been "free" I can't complain on the money issue, as it hasn't cost me anything, but it has certainly cost WotC something, as I haven't spent a dime on anything they have released since December and don't plan on changing that until the quality does provide me at least a little enjoyment.
And your second statement reeks of hypocrisy, since you are taking every opportunity to complain and express your outrage that some fans (or non-fans, as the case may be) are not happy with the product. If you place yourself in the category of a mature adult, it seems to me that live and let live might be the best policy henceforth, lest other posters incorrectly place you among the immature children who can't stand to have others not like what they like.
I'm not outraged at people not liking 4th Edition. I really don't care what game they decide for themselves to play.
What I do care about is defending 4th Edition from disingenuous attack.
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A gorilla that is creating an adventure path on its own for the first time, and is still getting used to the process.
This is not the first adventure path WotC has created.
It is not the second adventure path WotC has started but aborted.It is not the third adventure path WotC has created.
This is the fourth full adventure path WotC has created, along with several extended multi-part adventures.
Some people have higher expecatations at such a point.
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What I do care about is defending 4th Edition from disingenuous attack.
Um... Why? What does a bunch of online griping hurt anyway?
Most of the people complaining about 4e seem to be sincere in their dislike, so I really don't see why you'd call them disingenuous.
Sam
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Does SoW rhyme with cow or blow?
What I do care about is defending 4th Edition from disingenuous attack.Um... Why? What does a bunch of online griping hurt anyway?
Most of the people complaining about 4e seem to be sincere in their dislike, so I really don't see why you'd call them disingenuous.
I don't. They're fine. It's the ones who complain about 4th Edition and misrepresent it to other people who may be influenced by that misrepresentation.
I've spoken with a couple of people who have some totally incorrect impressions about what 4th Edition is like, simply because they heard someone ranting against 4th Edition say that it was the case. This is something that really should be avoided.
This is hyperbole, but indulge me. Pick your political party of choice. Now imagine a group of people going out onto the streets of America and telling the country that your party of choice is actually a secret cult of baby-eaters. And now, imagine that people believed them. You'd want to see an end to it, too.
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I don't. They're fine. It's the ones who complain about 4th Edition and misrepresent it to other people who may be influenced by that misrepresentation.
I've spoken with a couple of people who have some totally incorrect impressions about what 4th Edition is like, simply because they heard someone ranting against 4th Edition say that it was the case. This is something that really should be avoided.
Oh, I see. You really mean people that disagree with you. Talk about tilting at windmills.
Sam
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Ummm, why: 'It is not the second adventure path WotC has started but aborted.'? As far as I know Age of Worms was published as intended. (Althought there may have been occasional disruptions to an absolutely regular monthly publishing schedule.)
I am not including the APs done by Paizo in Dungeon Magazine.
I am referring to:1. The 3E Adventure Path series of adventures: The Sunless Citadel, The Forge of Fury, The Speaker in Dreams, The Standing Stone, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Deep Horizon, Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls.
2. Project Javelin, an adventure path for D20 Modern. It was to be free downloads, and had the campaign guide and first adventure posted when D20 Modern disappeared.
3. Dawn of Defiance, a 10 part series for Star Wars Sage Edition. It is also free downloads. The campaign outline and first six adventures are now available.
4. Scales of War, the current 18 part series for 4E in Dungeon magazine.
So that is a completed AP of published modules, an aborted AP of free modules, and an ongoing AP of free modules as direct, in-house experience for WotC before starting Scales of War.
Director of Brand Strategy
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1. The 3E Adventure Path series of adventures: The Sunless Citadel, The Forge of Fury, The Speaker in Dreams, The Standing Stone, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Deep Horizon, Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls.
Some better than others and lacking a consistent, overarching plot, but they are linked and not completely terrible, for what they are.
2. Project Javelin, an adventure path for D20 Modern. It was to be free downloads, and had the campaign guide and first adventure posted when D20 Modern disappeared.
Now if only 4e would disappear ;-) (Not disingenuous at all)
3. Dawn of Defiance, a 10 part series for Star Wars Sage Edition. It is also free downloads. The campaign outline and first six adventures are now available.
Hmm. An overview you say? What's that?
Yeah...
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Some better than others and lacking a consistent, overarching plot, but they are linked and not completely terrible, for what they are.
That is another topic.
The critical element is that WotC has in fact completed an adventure path previously, as well as started two others before Scales of War.Hmm. An overview you say? What's that?
Yeah...
Yes, well, that has been pointed out to Randy Buehler on the WotC forums.
Apparently the difference between 2-1/2 pages of summary of 10 adventures (and 1-1/2 pages of title and credits) and what he included as a spoiler in the Digital Insider #6 is not as obvious to him.
I'm not outraged at people not liking 4th Edition. I really don't care what game they decide for themselves to play.
What I do care about is defending 4th Edition from disingenuous attack.
That's all well and good...I am all for people pointing out flaws in the arguments of people trying to detract from either version.
But what does that really have to do with this thread? I don't beleive that anyone was attacking 4e at all. What we were complaining about is the quality of the products emerging from WoTC with regards to dungeon, specifically the AP.
As stated before, I like 4e and I even like the Dungeon adventures as a stand alone product. But this is not an AP. Really, looking at the list of adventures released by WoTC so far, I could almost build an AP of the same quality all the way up to level 13. Throw in one line in each module explaining how it relates to the previous one ("The Dwarves heard of your past exploits and asked for your assistance") and there we go.
It is the fluff that makes an AP. It is, IMHO, the fluff that draws people to purchase and run an AP. A bunch of adventures randonly thrown together (and the 2 existing modules and even the overview have really given no proof that it is otherwise) do not an AP make.
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A gorilla that is creating an adventure path on its own for the first time, and is still getting used to the process.
But do they have to re-invent the wheel or get some inspiration from other companies who successfully create APs?
Cut the phony sense of entitlement. We're talking about a company you pay pennies on the hour in terms of the amount of entertainment you enjoy as a result of their work. The guys behind the development desks at WotC work their butts off for this hobby, and are every bit as much a fan of role-playing games as you are.
I am sure they love D&D and they work really hard. But if all that hard work produces only mediocre adventures that at the moment do not even feel like an AP there is something wrong.
Crap is Crap and stays Crap whatever Company designs it.People will complain about anything because people love being able to express outrage at something. The same people who were "outraged" at not having an outline are the ones who are now "outraged" about the outline that they're given - including the handful that said they'd be happy with just a couple paragraphs on where the AP was headed.
I am not outraged, I find the outline funny.
Is it only me, or was the outline of the Paragon and Epic tier almost a verbatim quote from the PHB of what PCs will do in these levels?From Plane-hopping and saving Countries to Saving the World and more.
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Um... Why? What does a bunch of online griping hurt anyway?
Most of the people complaining about 4e seem to be sincere in their dislike, so I really don't see why you'd call them disingenuous.
When an individual takes their dislike and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade. Add to that the fact that most of the negativity comes in the form of disinformation and poorly informed opinion and the crusades that some folks have started morph into trolling.
Why should folk come here and campaign to bring an end to 4e and WotC? I don't see anyone going into the 3e/d20/OGL board to evangelize 4e. And if anyone does that then I will be more than willing to pop over to that board and ask them to knock it off.
Dislike 4e all you want, but to bring that dislike here - a place where folk are trying to actually talk about playing and GMing 4e - is quite disruptive. If an individual that dislikes 4e wants to be disruptive then by all means - go for it. Just know that intentional disruption is trolling, and trolling is bullshit.
Well, it was not the kind of overview I was hoping for, but it is better than nothing.
I also think it is important to note, that someone did indeed listen to the critique.
So they have my thanks! Especially since I would like for them to continue to listen to the voices of the fans.
I also think it is important to note, that someone did indeed listen to the critique.
But did they truly? This isn't the kind of overview I wanted. I still don't want to subscribe to the DDI. A real overview, assuming it was worth its weight in creativity, would go a long way toward making me want to subscribe. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
APs aren't like a TV series or even a series of novels - the audience of an adventure is DMs who are the ones who are supposed to hold all the secrets. When I read an adventure, I like to think, "Wow, this is really going to shock my players," not, "I wonder who the BBEG is going to be!"
The audience of an adventure is not weekly viewers who are tuning in to find out what happens next. The holding back of information doesn't work the same way. In this case, holding back information is a detriment to one's motivation to purchase and run the adventure. Right now I have little idea where this AP is going and I'm not excited about it. And I was one who was very excited when WotC announced a 4e AP. So far, it has been a let down.
I have a feeling that once DDI has a cost, there will be enough people saying they won't subscribe without an overview and WotC will eventually provide a real one that's free online.
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If you're not happy with the overview, then don't act like this is all you'll ever get. If you want more from an overview, let them know, and tell them what you're looking for. Somehow Paizo figured out how to provide a decent overview, WotC will need to do the same. Unless, of course, we want to submit to the idea that WotC just won't provide well-rounded online products.
If you're not happy with the overview, then don't act like this is all you'll ever get.
Who's acting like that? It's okay to express one's frustration. In fact, we do so partly in hopes that it will change.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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WTF? This has absolutely nothing to do with the stupid non-sequitor arguments that get bandied around. This is a discussion about a product, a product which sucks ass, and let's not mince words or go tilting at windmills regarding the existence of stupid arguments regarding 4e. They do exist, but they are not in attendance with regard to this half-assed product, so let's not get distracted.
This outline is a piece of garbage. The reason an outline is valuable is because it helps you foreshadow future encounters, understand which locations/NPCs should be developed, and generally provides a roadmap of the adventure path. This is as much a functional outline as "there are rooms in a castle and there are monsters in those rooms including 6 goblins" is a functional adventure.
WotC should be ashamed of this, and the fans of their products, the ones who are actually buying and playing 4e, are the ones that should be telling them to knock this shit off. Like it or not, they are the gold standard, they are the market leader, and they are in a vulnerable position. If they're going to put their thumbs back up their asses and go back to releasing shit like the original launch of eDragon/eDungeon or Keep on the Shadowfell, they're going to lose more customers, including me. I don't give a flying f~+~ if they've done 1 adventure path or 47, they are launching a whole new edition of D&D, and if they want to to be as successful as possible, they should be pulling out the stops and wowwing the non-believers with A+ work.
And it's not like the bar is high on an outline. All that they need to produce is a rough sketch providing the information I noted above to help DMs. What they've provided is lazy, unprofessional, and worthless. I expect better of WotC.
WotC doesn't have a lock on anyone's gaming dollars. They've got size and resources, but they ultimately need to quit acting like TSR circa 1994 and be the company that rebuilt D&D and launched 3e. Hell, they need to do better, Martial Power better damn well not be the Sword and Fist of 4e.
Step up to the plate WotC and bring your A game. Paizo brings it each and every day, you've got no f!&#ing excuses for garbage like this.
And don't confuse being a fan of 4e with needing to defend every move WotC makes. They can and do f&&@ up, and this is a prime example. The fact that it is free is irrelevant.
Soooo, about Wizards being that horrible evil corporation that never listens to the people?
Yeah.
I have to say: That "overview" is utter crap. More like one sentence marketing blurbs than an overview.
I have to say: That "overview" is utter crap. More like one sentence marketing blurbs than an overview.
Actually, the blurbs on the back of KotS or Thunderspire Labyrinth are more descriptive than these things. These are more like marketing blots.
Enjoy it? I feel sympathy for the 4e DMs that were hoping for an overview. This weak attempt is a far cry from the gold standard fans should expect, scratch that - demand, from the 800-lb gorrilla of the RPG industry.A gorilla that is creating an adventure path on its own for the first time, and is still getting used to the process.
Cut the phony sense of entitlement. We're talking about a company you pay pennies on the hour in terms of the amount of entertainment you enjoy as a result of their work. The guys behind the development desks at WotC work their butts off for this hobby, and are every bit as much a fan of role-playing games as you are.
People will complain about anything because people love being able to express outrage at something. The same people who were "outraged" at not having an outline are the ones who are now "outraged" about the outline that they're given - including the handful that said they'd be happy with just a couple paragraphs on where the AP was headed.
This isn't how mature adults should be acting.
Sebastian has already summed up much of my feeling about WotC needing to bring their A-game.
I'm truly baffled by your post Mr. Betts.
1) Sense of entitlement? WTF?!? They are selling a product. If the product is inferior, they lose customers. Customers vote with their wallets - that's capitalism, not entitlement. Using your (I hate to say logic) viewpoint in the reverse, I could argue that WotC feels its D&D customer base is captive, that they are entitled to those customer's patronage and that they can get away with putting out an inferior product. I'm NOT saying that's how they think, but that statement has as much validity as your claim. I AM saying that given their resources, they should produce product that is at LEAST comparable to their much smaller competition.
2) Pennies paid for crap is still wasted money. If WotC (or any other company) produces an inferior product, a customer will still feel that he's wasted his money. Customers want value for their purchase. If that outline meets that bar for you, great. That doesn't mean it meets the bar for most of the 4e fanbase or that their opinions, b/c they differ from yours, don't count.
3) Effort and passion can help drive someone to produce a quality product. They do not produce quality in and of themselves. Just becasue someone really, really wants to be a NFL quarterback doesn't mean they will BE good enough to play in the NFL.
Finally, WotC (you know, the largest RPG company in the world and the owners/producers of the world's most popular role-playing game) are not adventure writing "newbies". This is hardly their first attempt at such things. I mean, they have a "magazine" dedicated to D&D adventures after all. They also have competitor products they can look at to see what other people do in the industry.
I don't know you or where you're from or currently reside so perhaps it's a cultural thing. However, in the USA (where WotC is based) and through most of the global economy, capitalism is king. Instead of attacking my opinion (which didn't bash 4e, btw, only the crappy outline), perhaps you could avail yourself an Intro to Economics course or textbook. No outrage, here.
As for the "mature adults" shot, I think the occasional glance in the mirror (or at least a re-reading of some of your posts) might be order. Of course, that's one man's opinion. I hope it doesn't come across as outrageous... ;)
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Thank you for the clarification. I had forgotten (never having purchased or played it) the 3E path, and I do not play D20 modern or Star Wars Saga so was unaware that those paths had even existed.
Straight line . . . impossible . . . to . . . resist . . .
"Apparently so is Randy Buehler and the DDI team producing the magazines!"
Ahhhhhhhh.
Dude, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but 'impactful' is a word. It is in the current edition of Webster's Dictionary of English. So it is a legitimate word (according to Webster's).
So is flammable -- a word invented to warn children and illiterates that didn't know what inflammable meant.
:P
Soooo, about Wizards being that horrible evil corporation that never listens to the people? Yeah. Enjoy your overview.
I'm not sure what they were listening to, if that's suppose to be a response.
For the record, this is trademark SoW -- shallow and utterly devoid of engaging qualities. They seem to have disregarded (or failed to recognize) every single lesson Paizo has taught us about good APs.
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When an individual takes their dislike (of people posting 'misinformation' about 4E) and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.
So if the victim of a mugging beats the crap out of the mugger then suddenly the roles reverse and the victim becomes the criminal?
Nope.
Actually, I'm Batman!In a witty manner I'm turning one of your remarks around on you, Crosswiredmind! Got any clever answer to that?
The above posts were translated into smurf, for easier reading.
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When an individual takes their dislike (of people posting 'misinformation' about 4E) and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.So if the victim of a mugging beats the crap out of the mugger then suddenly the roles reverse and the victim becomes the criminal?
Nope.
*cough*bernardgoetz*cough*
Yes, give them a reason not to waste the effort on the unappreciative, enjoying a freebie preview. I will never understand this mentality. It is, simply, alien.
Did you not see any of the monthly 3.5 new content previews? The ones where WoTC gave us a couple paragraphs, maybe an except or two, from upcoming products? That was the kind of thing that drums up interest in a product. The SoW preview doesn't measure up.
WTF? This has absolutely nothing to do with the stupid non-sequitor arguments that get bandied around. This is a discussion about a product, a product which sucks ass, and let's not mince words or go tilting at windmills regarding the existence of stupid arguments regarding 4e. [snip]
This outline is a piece of garbage. [snip]
WotC should be ashamed of this... [snip] ...they are the market leader, and they are in a vulnerable position. If they're going to put their thumbs back up their asses and go back to releasing s*#@ like the original launch of eDragon/eDungeon or Keep on the Shadowfell, they're going to lose more customers, including me. [snip] Hell, they need to do better, Martial Power better...
Uhm Sebastian, you usually seem like a reasonable guy, but you must be really steamed about this. I agree it goes beyond the pressence or lack of an overview. But you sure got through a lot of "s*#@" and "f!#*" there.
I agree that the AP so far has been lackluster, and that the overview is weak, and that Wizards need to improve.
I just think we need to tell them that in a manner that... well... has a chance of being read, understood and taken to heart by Wizards. A lot of people are "raging", and this is not the best way to communicate.
So maybe we should get back to telling them what we would like, in a civilized manner, and hopefully they will listen. The fact that they posted this rather weak overview, was due to public outcry. Let's continue to make our voices heard.
My opinion is that the AP lacks a decent theme. We still lack a proper overview. And overall, the AP is not up to the standard of the core books.
While we are at it, you also mention Keep on Shadowfell, and you are right - this too is a bit weak (although it is the first module so it propably should be simple and straight forward), and I have no great love for Pyramid of Shadows either. Thunderspire Labyrinth has so far been the best, maybe mostly because it is more a set piece, a springboard for making your own adventures.
When an individual takes their dislike (of people posting 'misinformation' about 4E) and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.So if the victim of a mugging beats the crap out of the mugger then suddenly the roles reverse and the victim becomes the criminal?
Nope.
If the victim started beating the crap out of everyone who is remotely reminds them of the mugger, I probably would say yes.
I'm not claiming that is what is going on here though. Just that I think being a victim can only justify a certain level of response.
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When an individual takes their dislike (of people posting 'misinformation' about 4E) and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.So if the victim of a mugging beats the crap out of the mugger then suddenly the roles reverse and the victim becomes the criminal?
Nope.
If the victim started beating the crap out of everyone who is remotely reminds them of the mugger, I probably would say yes.
I'm not claiming that is what is going on here though. Just that I think being a victim can only justify a certain level of response.
Also, this isn't the victim of the mugger, this is a friend of the victim of the mugger. And I think this analogy has been stretched about as far as it's going.
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It's mind boggling that they can produce some decent stand alone adventures yet something about an AP turns the installments into the subpar offerings we've seen so far.
The overview was wank and a definite nail in the coffin of any chance that I would run SOW.
Instead I think I'll use the Sellswords of Punjar as my starting point and run a Lankhmar style game.
Better luck next AP wotc.
The overview was wank and a definite nail in the coffin of any chance that I would run SOW.
I felt the same way.
I've got no problem with what I've seen as standalones, but the 'overview' was more disappointing than campaign. There has been no indication that they are interested in meaningful responses to customer dissatisfaction -- plot development remains shallow, NPC personalities are unengaging at best, no setting development of any sort has been seen, and then this lame response.
I'll probably subscribe when the time comes, but it'll be for additional rules. The adventures are nowhere near a level that will satisfy my group -- we enjoy the roleplaying and interaction more than endless strings of tactical encounters :/
When an individual takes their dislike and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.
Yes. There is an awful lot of that going around.
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When an individual takes their dislike and decides to continuously post about it then it has moved from a personal opinion to a personal crusade.Yes. There is an awful lot of that going around.
In fairness I'm sure CW would prefer to just chat about 4E with other fans.
Unfortunately a little difficult on these boards.
People think that dragon crapped everywhere, sheesh they should look at some of the threads here.
In fairness I'm sure CW would prefer to just chat about 4E with other fans. Unfortunately a little difficult on these boards.
On the one hand, you're right. The anti-4e and anti-WotC vitriol here is increasingly embarrassing.
But don't discount the contribution of those that insistently (and often rudely) try to discredit those critics, and are more than happy to fuel the fires so long as they believe themselves right. The arguments continue because both sides willfully keep them going.
There's not so much moral high ground on these boards as you think.
In fairness I'm sure CW would prefer to just chat about 4E with other fans. Unfortunately a little difficult on these boards.On the one hand, you're right. The anti-4e and anti-WotC vitriol here is increasingly embarrassing.
I've noticed hostile posts from time to time on the Pathfinder threads, arguing about Pathfinder game mechanics that make the 4e threads look like Buddhists monks deciding which meditation to use for the day. <Please note exaggeration before flaming me on this one>
It's interesting that there's rarely an argument over how to translate an AP into Eberron or how to adjust the beholder scene to make it more inspiring or even the merits of James Jacob's AP overviews. When it comes to game mechanics, many feel they have the objective truth in their pockets and must argue endlessly until others have converted.
Sorry to carry the theadjack, as I feel the SOW Overview thread should be about the crappy overview. But every 4e thread seems to devolve into hostility regardless of the topic on hand.
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But don't discount the contribution of those that insistently (and often rudely) try to discredit those critics, and are more than happy to fuel the fires so long as they believe themselves right. The arguments continue because both sides willfully keep them going.
You are correct but would there be any of that if the anti-4e crowd would just stop wacking the hornets nest and let people talk about playing and GMin 4e?
You are correct but would there be any of that if the anti-4e crowd would just stop wacking the hornets nest and let people talk about playing and GMin 4e?
You're right. This dead horse gets whacked over and over and over...
But it's become a giant pissing contest. The amazing thing is that most people pointing fingers already have their pants pulled down around their ankles :/
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You are correct but would there be any of that if the anti-4e crowd would just stop wacking the hornets nest and let people talk about playing and GMin 4e?You're right. This dead horse gets whacked over and over and over...
But it's become a giant pissing contest. The amazing thing is that most people pointing fingers already have their pants pulled down around their ankles :/
Yep. You are correct. So what is the solution? As long as there is a 4e board the only solution I see that end the pissing contest is for the 4e detractors to piss elsewhere or for Paizo to shut this place down for good.
So if the victim of a mugging beats the crap out of the mugger then suddenly the roles reverse and the victim becomes the criminal?
[threadjack]
Oh, absolutely they do. What you just described - one person "beating the crap" out of another - is assault. This is every bit as much of a crime as mugging.Should the victim of a mugging be able to defend themselves? Absolutely - they should be allowed to use the minimum force necessary to protect themselves. Should they be able to get away with a disproportionate act of violence towards someone else, regardless of the circumstances? Absoluely not. This sort of thinking leads to vigilante justice where everyone turns into Batman (without the cool gadgets and costume) and the whole world goes to hell...
[/threadjack]
Which (to stretch the metaphor a little) seems to be what is happening on the boards these days...