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I don't think so. I think he made a mistake actually. I suspect there are millions of service men (and women?) world-wide who (a) lean to the right and (b) game.
While claiming to support the troops, he's voted against every supplemental to support veterans, GI bill enhancement, troop leave act, etc. in the last two years (that he's bothered to show up for, he hasn't attended several, and one failed by a single vote on a day when he was 'too busy' to show up), including two of *his own bills.* By this point, anyone in the military who is still voting for him after his repeated betrayals of them would probably *still* be voting for him if he came and personally cut off one of their limbs.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't think many, if any, service voters willsay "I agree with McCain's policies, but I'm voting for Obama because he didn't insult D&D "
You've clearly forgotten when Gore said that Picard was a better captain than Kirk back in 2000. It cost him the sizeable Starfleet Democrats of Florida vote, and the rest is history...
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Living in Albuquerque, I've become aware that the local military bases actually have a decent concentration of gamers. A friend in Gallup who joined to war to go to Iraq also informed me of the abundance of gamers in the military. I don't know the statistics, but McCain may be attacking the wrong audience here, particularly if a sizeable portion of that audience IS in the military.
Also, I neither live with my mom, nor have a basement.
Hmm. I'm wondering if he's got some form of dementia. Maybe he's trapped in the late 70s / early 80s. Back then, I remember playing D&D at my Mom (and Dad's) house . . . in the garage.
Of course, I also wasn't old enough to vote at that time!
So, maybe all you 13 year olds out there ought to be the ones taking offense.
I don't think many, if any, service voters willsay "I agree with McCain's policies, but I'm voting for Obama because he didn't insult D&D "Well, there's certainly that.
its an easy group to blow off, politically, for a republican. he may have lost, oh, all of three votes with that comment...I don't think so. I think he made a mistake actually. I suspect there are millions of service men (and women?) world-wide who (a) lean to the right and (b) game.
Some militaries officially frown on the game, the Israeli military for example, IIRC.
I think he just insulted and alienated more service votes than he realizes, which, IMO is all to the good.
Agreed. I think they'll say, "I was wondering about this McCain dude. He doesn't much believe in veterans psychological med benefits, but on the other hand I like his foreign policy. I'm undecided. What? He just insulted my hobby and called me a live-with mom, basement dwelling slacker?! Right after I get back from patrol I'm going to rethink my position..."
Or something like that.
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You've clearly forgotten when Gore said that Picard was a better captain than Kirk back in 2000. It cost him the sizeable Starfleet Democrats of Florida vote, and the rest is history...
I don't think many, if any, service voters willsay "I agree with McCain's policies, but I'm voting for Obama because he didn't insult D&D "
The Libertarians for Sisko were pissed too.
Mr. Goldfarb, I'm sorry D&D is too complicated for you to understand. Stick with checkers and Chutes and Ladders.
Hey. Play nice or my daughter will resent that comment as soon as she understands what the word "resent" means. She plays Chutes and Ladders and she's happy (because she's 5 and her dad plays with her).
;)
I don't think so. I think he made a mistake actually. I suspect there are millions of service men (and women?) world-wide who (a) lean to the right and (b) game.Some militaries officially frown on the game, the Israeli military for example, IIRC.
I think he just insulted and alienated more service votes than he realizes, which, IMO is all to the good.
Yeah, I can see it now...
"Gosh, I agree with McCain's positions on all the important political issues of our time, but this off-handed insult to D&D goes too far! I'm voting for the Green party instead."
If this comment is sufficient to affect your vote, I'd wager you shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Which isn't to say it's not obnoxious. It is. But I think the posters attributing it to an overzealous mouthpiece have the better of it. I can't imagine someone like McCain even realizes D&D exists, and to the extent he does, he could probably care less about it.
On the face of it, it wouldn't make sense to disparage Obama supporters; since, theoretically, you'd like to turn them into your supporters. But if you assume that's impossible, that Obama's base is his base and yours is yours; then there is little need to lambast your opponents supporters or pander to your own. Lacking a major scandal or serious screwup, they will vote for you or against you pretty much regardless.
However, it makes plenty sense to lambast your opponent's supporters if you want to prevent undecided people from becoming one of them. To me it seems obvious this is the point of this (or any other) comment disparaging Obama's supporters.
In this regard, emotional appeals are more persuasive than logic. Among emotional appeals, those that help one avoid negative effects are more persuasive than those that help you attain a positive result (ie as an message "Prevent tooth decay!" sells more product than "Makes your teeth healthier!").
And so, in the back-asswards logic of mass media marketing, this sends the message, "Don't become an Obama supporter, or you'll be seen as a basement-dwelling, D&D playing slacker. Avoid that!"
That they chose D&D doesn't really matter. They could have chosen a comparison to anything that they believe (a) the nation at large disparages and (b) would get a chuckle.
This explanation makes much more sense to me than the thought that the McCain campaign decided "Hey, let's run a campaign for high office and let jerk wad junior staffers post any old thing to our public face on the internet. Let's do that without much review. And if we don't understand what the staffer proposes to publish at large, that's ok! Let him/her post anyway."
I highly suspect, some young punk (younger than 40) on the internet staff with more time than tact thought he was being cute. I truly doubt McCain gives basement dwelling Dungeons and Dragons players a seconds thought one way or the other.This sort of thing happens all the time on both sides within the web-staff. Which is a shame. Someone ought to keep a tighter grip on the 'message' that comes out of their sites. If anything what it displays is a lack of group discipline within the campaign. Perhaps it stems from hiring web-bloggers who have both computer skill and enthusiasm but little political experience.
If it happened once sure. More then once is political spin.
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If it happened once sure. More then once is political spin.
Sure. And Hasbro micromanaged the creation of 4e.
Political machines are made up of people, most of whom are not super-genius manipulators.
Firstly, I suspect McCain does not pay a huge amount of attention to his internet campaign. Call it a hunch or what-have-you but it really seems to me that politicians of a certain age/generation/mindset do not grok the predominance of internet communication among the more computer savvy.
Secondly, there are two sorts of political leaders. Those who have a tendency to try to oversee every detail (the Clintons are famous for being in this camp) and those who give broad directives and then assume their underlings are competent enough to carry them out (Ronald Reagan tended to utilize this sort of leadership we are told). McCain seems to me much more of the second type though admittedly I could be wrong.
The Libertarians for Sisko were pissed too.You've clearly forgotten when Gore said that Picard was a better captain than Kirk back in 2000. It cost him the sizeable Starfleet Democrats of Florida vote, and the rest is history...
I don't think many, if any, service voters willsay "I agree with McCain's policies, but I'm voting for Obama because he didn't insult D&D "
I don't think anybody here will ever forget when Ron Paul came out in full support of "Greedo shot first."
For over 30 years I have had a military or two in my group (ok for 12 months deployments overlapped.) I had two scout leaders who were in the military and also involved in gaming. I remember my dad ordering all my stuff from TSR because he got the military discount--TSR offers (-ed) a military discount and posted international and APO rates! (Dad still shakes his head that I spend money on that 'game for high school kids') Not to mention this game came from military/historical games which were for training officers and the like...
I am continually disheartened that my hobby is less socially acceptable than drugs alcohol, gambling...
Does anyone one know the statistics of gamers in the military? of the military who games? Someone must have it published somewhere, but my google skills are cross class.
What is funny is I think this shows how much McCain's people don't understand gaming. The whole "Dungeon's and Dragon's" crowd comment I bet was actually directed not towards D&D but was suppose to be towards people like WoW or Quake or whatever players. People online almost continuously and thus supposably more likely to whine on liberal blogs.
Besides I think this more shows that maybe Michael Goldfarb has something against D&D more than McCain does. Since he is the one that made the other D&D comment if I remember right. Maybe Goldfarb used to beat up the D&D nerds when he was younger and sees alot of the liberal whiners as fitting the same (social) mold.
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I think you've got it Pres man. There just aren't enough publicly available statistics on D&D voters, especially those in the military or with military backgrounds, for him to be influenced by. Perhaps we should be a more vocal lobbying group.
Vote yes on the 15-minute workday!
Equal pay for small-size PCs!
I don't think so. I think he made a mistake actually. I suspect there are millions of service men (and women?) world-wide who (a) lean to the right and (b) game.Some militaries officially frown on the game, the Israeli military for example, IIRC.
I think he just insulted and alienated more service votes than he realizes, which, IMO is all to the good.
Yeah, I can see it now...
"Gosh, I agree with McCain's positions on all the important political issues of our time, but this off-handed insult to D&D goes too far! I'm voting for the Green party instead."
If this comment is sufficient to affect your vote, I'd wager you shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Which isn't to say it's not obnoxious. It is. But I think the posters attributing it to an overzealous mouthpiece have the better of it. I can't imagine someone like McCain even realizes D&D exists, and to the extent he does, he could probably care less about it.
It isn't the only reason, but that he's the sort of person to insult D&D would suggest that he should not be voted for.
I diswike McCain.
I diswike McCain.
Why? He's your size.
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Drill in my backyard, will you? Screw you buddy.You've got oil in your backyard? Cool! Black gold! Texas Tea!
I'm so jealous!
That would be cool, but no, I meant the gulf. What the hell, it sounds like a great idea. I mean it's not like the entire economy of my state is based on tourism or anything. And this part of the country never gets bad storms. *looks out window*
Those pictures of the oil rig washed into mobile bay still give me nightmares.
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So I don't normally post about politics, and I almost never post to the site from home, but I thought this was interesting enough to be worth pointing out. John McCain's campaign just took a fairly significant swipe at Dungeons & Dragons for no apparent reason.
From the campaign's website:
"It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others."
Crazy.
I thought it was more interesting to read the comments and see that many pro-Obama people were offended by being compared to the D&D crowd.
Dungons and dragons? Are you calling pro -Obama people demons?You sound like the Anointed One!
So now if you're an Obama supporter you're part of the Dungeons and Dragons crowd?…lol
August 18th, 2008 6:19 pm ET
"the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd"
The what? I know McCain is old but can't his handlers use more current terms? Try "the blogosphere", we all know that is what you really mean.
And why is it that it is never McCain making these comments? It is always one of his yes men. Too busy getting ready for Wheel of Fortune, John?
Looks like McCain isn't the only one slamming us with negative sterotypes.
Those pictures of the oil rig washed into mobile bay still give me nightmares.
There's a bay that moves around? Kewl!!
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There's a bay that moves around? Kewl!!
Those pictures of the oil rig washed into mobile bay still give me nightmares.
On the off-chance that you're not kidding, here's a picture.
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Drill in my backyard, will you? Screw you buddy.You've got oil in your backyard? Cool! Black gold! Texas Tea!
I'm so jealous!
That would be cool, but no, I meant the gulf. What the hell, it sounds like a great idea. I mean it's not like the entire economy of my state is based on tourism or anything. And this part of the country never gets bad storms. *looks out window*
Those pictures of the oil rig washed into mobile bay still give me nightmares.
Yeah, the wife and I were considering a trip to Disney in Florida (Land or World? I can never remember) at the same time my brother and his wife were going. The cost to either fly or drive was just too much. Damn those high gas prices.
Besides I think this more shows that maybe Michael Goldfarb has something against D&D more than McCain does. Since he is the one that made the other D&D comment if I remember right. Maybe Goldfarb used to beat up the D&D nerds when he was younger and sees alot of the liberal whiners as fitting the same (social) mold.
Heh. If Mr. Goldfarb turned out to have played D&D in the past, now that would be a joke, wouldn´t it?
Stefan
P.S. Yes, I guess he aimed at the WoW crowd - which does not make it any better.
I just had a vision of a bunch of D&D players in Ronald Reagan masks barging into this Goldfarb guy's office, bungee cording him to his desk, and taking whacks at him with oranges stuffed into the ends of pillow cases.
Anyone?
Ok, maybe it was just me...
If this comment is sufficient to affect your vote, I'd wager you shouldn't be voting in the first place.Damn skippy.
For shame on you both, and you know it. Satisfying thought, I agree, but un-american. I may not agree with their stupidity, but I'll defend their right to vote stupid. Such is the law of the land.
So I don't normally post about politics, and I almost never post to the site from home, but I thought this was interesting enough to be worth pointing out. John McCain's campaign just took a fairly significant swipe at Dungeons & Dragons for no apparent reason.
From the campaign's website:
"It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others."
Crazy.
I thought it was more interesting to read the comments and see that many pro-Obama people were offended by being compared to the D&D crowd.
Dungons and dragons? Are you calling pro -Obama people demons?You sound like the Anointed One!
So now if you're an Obama supporter you're part of the Dungeons and Dragons crowd?…lol
Exactly the feeling they were hoping to elicit. If this guy felt it, maybe fence sitters did too.
Anyhoo, that's how I see it.
On the off-chance that you're not kidding, here's a picture.There's a bay that moves around? Kewl!!
Those pictures of the oil rig washed into mobile bay still give me nightmares.
Was there any actual leakage from where those rigs broke off? Or are you just afraid of random rigs washing onto shore?
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Was there any actual leakage from where those rigs broke off? Or are you just afraid of random rigs washing onto shore?
Well, this site certainly seems to think so. I think most of the oil companies are on record as saying that leakage was "minimal". I guess it boils down to who you believe and what your definition of "minimal" is.
As for my fears, all of the above. Including drunk ship captains. One of them already took down the sunshine skyway at one point, so its all part of the same conversation once the rigs are out there. And with so many industry analysts saying that drilling will do nothing to the price of gas for a very long time, I have a hard time seeing exactly whose interest is being served here. Well... not that hard a time really.
With Obama constantly reiterating that McCain is just going to continue with the same policies as Bush this derogatory statement about D&D was clearly an attempt by McCain to distance himself from Bush; who clearly plays D&D.
And with so many industry analysts saying that drilling will do nothing to the price of gas for a very long time, I have a hard time seeing exactly whose interest is being served here. Well... not that hard a time really.
Actually I think there may be some confusion. While it may take a while to actually see an increase in supply due to additional drilling (and it may be the companies will not want to do any drilling anytime soon, they like high prices), the price of oil is not based solely on the supply-demand ideal. There is also speculators to think about. If there is the likelihood that there will be more oil in the future the speculation will decrease (buy high predicting a shortage, no shortage then no reason to buy high). We saw this happen when push removed the presidential ban, even though it didn't make any actual difference since the congressional ban was still in place, the price of oil started to drop after the removal. If the issue was solely one of supply versus demand, then I could see some of these analysts point.
Also, if we had started drilling 7-15 years ago, then we'd have the only now. Does anyone seriously believe there will be no demand in 7-15 years in the future?
He's probably just had some terrible DM experiences. Grudges are hard to let go.
Yeah, I heard that Greg Vaughan DMed a session and killed his character 3 times. (Which is actually a low body count for Greg)
ASEO out
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Maybe. Or maybe if we had started drilling 7-15 years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation because Charlie, or Jean, or Francis, or Andrew or Ivan, or Wilma, yada, yada, yada would have already spilled a couple million gallons of crude on my local beach.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have Jetson flying cars.
I just had a vision of a bunch of D&D players in Ronald Reagan masks barging into this Goldfarb guy's office, bungee cording him to his desk, and taking whacks at him with oranges stuffed into the ends of pillow cases.
Anyone?
Ok, maybe it was just me...
No, no. Full of d4s not oranges.
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So now if you're an Obama supporter you're part of the Dungeons and Dragons crowd?…lolLooks like McCain isn't the only one slamming us with negative sterotypes.
I don't believe I said this. Further, I am curious as to where you got this from, I scanned the whole thread and couldn't find the text you quoted.
Not to mention that I am an Obama supporter and play D&D (quite happily, mind you).
So now if you're an Obama supporter you're part of the Dungeons and Dragons crowd?…lolLooks like McCain isn't the only one slamming us with negative sterotypes.I don't believe I said this. Further, I am curious as to where you got this from, I scanned the whole thread and couldn't find the text you quoted.
Not to mention that I am an Obama supporter and play D&D (quite happily, mind you).
He's quoting the comments from the website itself.
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So now if you're an Obama supporter you're part of the Dungeons and Dragons crowd?…lolLooks like McCain isn't the only one slamming us with negative sterotypes.I don't believe I said this. Further, I am curious as to where you got this from, I scanned the whole thread and couldn't find the text you quoted.
Not to mention that I am an Obama supporter and play D&D (quite happily, mind you).
Sorry, this was a quote from a Gene on the CNN website. Sorry for the confusion.
Edit: Looks like Jeremy beat me to the punch.
Maybe. Or maybe if we had started drilling 7-15 years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation because Charlie, or Jean, or Francis, or Andrew or Ivan, or Wilma, yada, yada, yada would have already spilled a couple million gallons of crude on my local beach.
Possible. My point was more that it sounds sort of short sighted for someone to complain about people investing for the future. Most things don't pay off immediately, that doesn't mean that alot of things aren't worth starting. I found it especially humorous when the candidate with the "future" campaign was saying that we shouldn't bother because it wouldn't pay off immediately, you know that it would pay off sometime in the "future".
Well, this site certainly seems to think so. I think most of the oil companies are on record as saying that leakage was "minimal". I guess it boils down to who you believe and what your definition of "minimal" is.
Maybe I'm confused or just stupid, but it looks like on the link you provide that the great majority of the spilled oil came from "industrial plants, storage depots and other facilities around southeast Louisiana." So unless people in your state planned on investing in oil refining, I don't really see the concern since it didn't mainly come from any damaged rigs.
Here is an article that mentions off-shore spills in particular.
[quote=]Offshore oil
As for oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico, Paskewich [federal on-scene coordinator for the Coast Guard] said the Coast Guard has fielded no reports of offshore spills there, though leaks could spring when the thousands of oil platforms and hundreds of miles of pipeline are restarted. Last year, Hurricane Ivan was responsible for oil spills in the Gulf, he said.
Paskewich dismissed suggestions by an environmental advocacy group that satellite photos showed some 7,000 square miles of oil floating in the Gulf, saying numerous flyovers revealed only minor sheening.
Skytruth, a group that uses satellite imagery to track environmental damage, says extensive oil slicks are visible in areas of the Gulf raked by hurricane-force winds.
“Daily overflights are being conducted to find the real truth of what’s going on,” Paskewich told Reuters. “As for now, I am confident that we have not received any reports of significant oil spills offshore.”
If this comment is sufficient to affect your vote, I'd wager you shouldn't be voting in the first place.Damn skippy.
Winston Churchill once said something to the effect of the biggest argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter, and I'd have to agree. Thomas Jefferson also said that an educated populace is necessary to a well wrong democracy.
As for the idea that the reference to D&D was made as a calculated attempt to garner McCain some votes with the evangelicals - c'mon, folks, are you kidding me? It was nothing more than a disparaging comment. To make any more out of it than that is nuts. Besides, do you really think any of the evangelicals who are so unhappy with McCain would really rethink their position based upon one of his staffers slamming D&D in a tangential manner with a passing comment?
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Remember who he is trying to appeal to - the Religious Right who probably still think we worship the devil. He doesn't have much of a base there, so this might be a quick way of geting to their hearts (maybe in focus groups they say that it's the work of the Devil). I think it's crass, since a lot of people in the forces play D&D, and I doubt Obama ever played D&D since he is obviously not geeky enough. But, meh, politics is rough. Not that I have a vote, I'd be more intrested in their economic policies than their attitudes to D&D.
Yeah, it's my understanding that a relatively high percentage of military people play D&D. It is a silly thing to put in an attack on Obama, and doesn't throw McCain in a good light. That being said, I can put up with some slightly anti-D&D comments, the commment is more about arm-chair soliders or whatever you'd call them than D&D enthusists, if he has better policies on important subjects than his opponent.
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Hard for me to believe that this is the same guy that once called the Falwell's of this country "agents of intolerance". Hypocrite much Mr. McCain?
Bah, his policy reversals lost me a long time ago. Drill in my backyard, will you? Screw you buddy.
Speaking of policy reversals, have you heard that his handlers have taken away his cell phone? It seems that his policies are greatly influenced by whoever he has spoken with last. His handlers took away his phone so he would be able to get his positions straight.
I actually had a friend who played D&D a lot when he was stationed in Afghanistan. He had his letter to the editor published in either Dragon or Dungeon years ago (he even got his picture included as well).
Speaking of policy reversals, have you heard that his handlers have taken away his cell phone? It seems that his policies are greatly influenced by whoever he has spoken with last. His handlers took away his phone so he would be able to get his positions straight.
Ok, it's statements like this that justify what was written.
For the record, he said "Pro-Obama" Dungeons & Dragons groups, as opposed to those of us that are "Pro-McCain" Dungeons & Dragons groups. However, the next time I shake his hand, I'll be sure to introduce myself as both a combat veteran AND a D&D player.
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I get the feeling that Michael Goldfarb might just be the next James Watt. McCain ought to reel this guy in before he does too much damage.
I compare this statement to the James Watt anti-Beach Boys bungle, for which the Reagans had to browbeat him severely. Unfortunately, they couldn't prevent his next proclamation of asininity, which I can't in good taste repeat here, and for which he had to be let go.
Please, Mr. Goldfarb, you're a prolific blogger. Apparently you know how to type. Learn to self edit. It's infinitely easier in blogspace than in the soundbite milieu.
Learn to see yourself as others see you.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For shame on you both, and you know it. Satisfying thought, I agree, but un-american. I may not agree with their stupidity, but I'll defend their right to vote stupid. Such is the law of the land.If this comment is sufficient to affect your vote, I'd wager you shouldn't be voting in the first place.Damn skippy.
Cool. Make sure to let all the people who won't vote for Obama because he's a double-secret muslim know that their ignorance should not preclude them from voting.
Un-American? Wtf does that even mean?
I think the wise sage Homer J. Simpson said it best: "When will people learn? Democracy just doesn't work."
Which is why, if you elect me president, the first thing I will do is eliminate everyone else's right to vote.