My group has just about gotten to the end of Chapter 2 (Drakthar's Way) and I am finding that their XP totals are getting too high. For the last 2 sessions I have had to cut the XP rewards in half just to slow things down. Even still, I expect that all PC's will easily be 5th level by the end of Drakthar's Way. This is a full level ahead of what they should be at.
I haven't added much to the campaign by way of additional encounters or given out a whole heap of bonus XP for good roleplaying that would explain the extra XP. Looking back at my notes for each session I have found that those types of things add up to less than 350XP per PC. This is certainly less than the 4000XP difference from 4th to 5th level. On top of all this I have 5 PC's, rather than the standard 4, so if anything I thought that the PC's would have less XP than normal.
Has this happened to anyone else or am I just the odd one out?
Olaf the Stout
Olaf, which XP system are you using - 3.0 or 3.5? There is a small difference between them, although normally not enough to create such a disparity.
I also remember the first time I calculated XP for my players with the 3.5 version. I misread one vital sentence, and therefore did not divide the individual monster XP by the number of party members. Needless to say, the resulting high XP values made me re-read and then re-calculate!
I am using the hardcover. Apart from updating the early adventures to 3.5E and adding in Drakthar's Way, I didn't think that any other changes were made to the adventures in general (apart from things like the Flood Festival, etc.). I thought that they changed it to recommend it for 6 PC's rather than 4 due to the fact that it was a meat grinder.
As far as I know I am using the 3.5E XP method. Here is how I calculate XP. Feel free to let me know if I'm calculating it incorrectly.
The party is 5 PC's who are all 4th level. They face 2 x CR2 Goblins. this makes it it an EL4 encounter. Experience is awarded as such.
A CR2 encounter for a 4th level party is worth 600 XP. 2 CR 2 encounters is therefore worth 1,200 XP. 1,200 XP split amongst 5 PC's is 240 XP each.
Note: Even though this was an EL4 encounter, which also happens to be worth 1,200 XP but you should still award XP by working out what each individual creature is worth (i.e. 2 x CR2 XP awards rather than 1 x CR 4 XP award).
If one of the PC's in the party was 5th level, compared to 4th level for the rest of the group then that PC would only receive 100 XP (500XP/5). Everyone else in the party would still receive 120 XP. Their XP reward for the encounter does not change, despite the party having a higher level PC in the group.
Olaf the Stout
My group has just about gotten to the end of Chapter 2 (Drakthar's Way) and I am finding that their XP totals are getting too high. For the last 2 sessions I have had to cut the XP rewards in half just to slow things down. Even still, I expect that all PC's will easily be 5th level by the end of Drakthar's Way. This is a full level ahead of what they should be at.
I started my group at 2nd level (so they could survive Chapter 1 a little easier) and have skipped Drakthar's Way and found the XP to be pretty good. I am now running the Siege of Redgorge and they just leveled to 10th right before the big demon battle/Nabthatoron encounter (which is right where they should be).
At the same time, it should be noted that they missed half of the Kuo-Toan temple (a Locate Creature led them directly to Zenith, missing Dhorlot and some of the other encounters). The group also killed Kazmojen in the Malachite fortress quickly, and then retreated, so I had the hobgoblins and the dark ones retreat back to the Underdark, leaving just the monsters when they came to clean up.
On the other hand, I have added in the Necrocants ambush, the Demonskar Ball, and the Siege of Redgorge. There was also a wyvern attacking Hollowsky that my group investigated.
One way you could do things is that a group cannot level mid-adventure without a rest/visit back to their temple/training hall. This may become a problem later on, when you want them to level mid-adventure. The players may choose to continue on to finish their objective, rather than retreat and gain a level.
If your group is a "completist" type, then yes I would say that the adventures would start to push the envelope. Remember that XP is meant to be a way of adjudicating that the party is ready to level. My players trust me that I am keeping track of their XP fairly, and I do have things like XP awards and the like that add into their scores. As long as the group is having fun, and that they are leveling in a fair manner, there should be no problems. Holding levels back from players is only unfair if you are throwing encounters at them that are meant for a higher level.
This is a pretty tough adventure and you get less XP if your higher in level. Very roughly you loose or gain about 25% of the XP value for every level of difference. I have to wonder if it would just balance itself out if you left things alone. Sure the PCs would probably be about a level or so up but then if you only have 5 PCs they are facing a pretty difficult campaign in any case.
If you hold to the level loss XP for dying I'd not be surprised if things worked out roughly correctly.
That said I could see a problem in a couple of cases. This is a very hard campaign but if the players have been given really good stats and access to a lot of books they could make characters that are so optimized that they may not be feeling endangered.
The second issue can relate to the first in that the system seems to presume some deaths and the inherent loss of XP for that. If your not knocking off characters every so often then they are not loosing any XP for that.
Well the PC's were created using 30 point buy, so they aren't overly powerful statswise. The do have access to all the Complete books as well as the Spell Compendium so that probably makes them a bit more powerful than your PHB only PC's.
The party makeup is:
Human Warblade 4
Dwarf Fighter 4
Halfling Rogue 4 (was previously Human Favoured Soul 4)
Human Conjurer 4
Half-Elf Cleric 4
So far in 13 sessions no PC's have been killed. I have knocked PC's into negatives 13 times though so they haven't had it all one way.
They had no trouble with Kazmojen (mainly thanks to the Spell Compendium spell "Cloud of Bewilderment" and some poor saving throws by me!) There were nearly multiple deaths the session before last when they encountered the big fight in Drakthar's Way (5 Goblin Skirmishers, 3 Goblin Sneaks, 1 Worg, 1 Silent Wolf Goblin and a Goblin Adept) after the spellcasters had expended almost all their spells for the day. If they had half their spells left I don't think it would have been as difficult.
I can understand people saying to not worry about it and it will correct itself over time (thanks to higher level PC's getting less XP for low CR fights). However that means for the next half a dozen sessions the PC's will not really be challenged combat-wise. They'll just smash anything they come up against.
Right now I'm not sure what to do. If I make future fights harder they will just get more XP and get further ahead. I've started cutting the combat awards in half the last couple of sessions. I may continue to do that until their XP totals get back in line with where they should be.
Olaf the Stout
My team has definitely leveled faster than the SCAP called for, so I've adjusted my campaign as I've gone along. I've scaled up the opposition so that the battles have been more challenging (based on the notes in the magazine) and I've also cut the XP to 75%.
Hurm.
I'm running from the magazines but in 3.5.
I have taken a different approach. I have set places in the story that the party levels. This makes things easier on me as I don't have to calculate Xp and the players can feel free to chase the story and not worry about hitting every combat encounter for that vital experience.
I look at what level the characters need to be for the upcoming adventure and look at logical places to level the group. For example in Life's Bazaar I added a prelude that brought the party to 2nd level, I then had them hit 3rd after J'zadirune and moved on to the Malachite Fortress and then at chapter end they hit level 4. In Flood Season they began at 4 and leveled to five after the Lucky Monkey and then hit six at chapter end. Most of the chapters have a logical place to add a level change and most only traverse two levels so if they level at the end of the chapter and in the middle that keeps things on track fairly well.
I think aligning the leveling of characters to points in the story is excellent, with two caveats:
1. If you have a character death, keep an eye on them once they are raised. Using the traditional XP rewards, they would catch up with their fellow party members eventually. If you are strictly using the aforementioned leveling everyone at the same time method, they will be permanently one level down.
2. If you have magic users with craft feats, be sure to devise some sort of alternative crafting system that doesn't require xp. Heck, you could even make it some kind of class feature, like wizards get their usual stuff, + 5 crafting points/level, whereas clerics would get their usual stuff + 4 crafting points/level. You get the idea.
Thanks,
Olodrin
I'm in the camp of letting the XP handle itself. The adventure probably has enough xp for 6 characters, and is difficult enough generally for 6 characters. If you've got 5, then they will get 20% more xp, until they level a little sooner, and get -25% xp * +20% xp for 90% of normal total.
So they will coast back a bit, and so forth. Essentially they should never be more than 1 level ahead of where they should be, and truly not even that. If they find every possible encounter for xp and keep ahead of the curve a little, they deserve it.
Let them enjoy walloping things. If the tough fights get to be too weak, add some hp on the fly to give them a satisfying challenge.
I may be completely incorrect, but I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago that the AP was created with the intent to have 6 PCs, so that might be a factor in your party being a little higher level than what the adventure calls for.
I'm running it with 6 players, and they are actually a little under the curve right now...just starting Secrets of the Soul Pillars.
I may be completely incorrect, but I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago that the AP was created with the intent to have 6 PCs, so that might be a factor in your party being a little higher level than what the adventure calls for.
I'm running it with 6 players, and they are actually a little under the curve right now...just starting Secrets of the Soul Pillars.
From what I understand of it, the SCAP was actually created with a 4 player party in mind. When the came around to making the hardcover they decided that it was probably a little too difficult for 4 PC's and suggested the players have a 6 person party instead. They did add in an extra adventure (Drakthar's Way) and updated the first couple of adventures to 3.5E but I don't think that they adjusted any of the other adventures to account for the fact that there were now 6 PC's.
Olaf the Stout
I may be completely incorrect, but I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago that the AP was created with the intent to have 6 PCs, so that might be a factor in your party being a little higher level than what the adventure calls for.
I'm running it with 6 players, and they are actually a little under the curve right now...just starting Secrets of the Soul Pillars.
From what I understand of it, the SCAP was actually created with a 4 player party in mind. When the came around to making the hardcover they decided that it was probably a little too difficult for 4 PC's and suggested the players have a 6 person party instead. They did add in an extra adventure (Drakthar's Way) and updated the first couple of adventures to 3.5E but I don't think that they adjusted any of the other adventures to account for the fact that there were now 6 PC's.
Olaf the Stout
That may be what I was thinking about. Makes sense to me.