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I'm tired of all the work for negative reward. No good deed goes unpunished, as they say.
WEG and all it's properties are for sale, and I'm taking bids. I've been talking with some of the more interested publishers already but I was recent b*$!@ed out (what else is new) for not offer WEG for sale to fans publicly.
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Eric Gibson
Publisher, West End Games/
Purgatory Publishing Inc.
You can find the new via googlig "West End Games for sale". I didn't provide a link since several posters have expressed displeasure at such practices.
Wow! That sucks. I am sorry that he feels that way. It is a shame to see a company die like that.
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I've been here since the AoW days (which means I'm not the oldest of the old, but I'm old)...please put links (linked correctly of course) especially if that is the point of your post.
No. The "point" of the post is the demise of WEG. Just being a bit cautious, that's all....
Ah, frack it. Here's the link. Here are some reactions: ENworld. I'll post others when I get back from lunch.
Back before WEG lost the StarWars license most of my RPG collection consisted of WEG products (namely StarWars). It's sad to see the company "die" again...
... plus I never really got the chance to play much TORG back in the day
I didn't provide a link since several posters have expressed displeasure at such practices.What? Several posters here? I think it more of a bummer when people share interesting information without a link...
To be fair, I think people were complaining more about links to "flame wars" on other boards. We have enough flame wars here, thanks. :-)
On topic: I always liked Paranoia -- reading the game, if not playing it! Of course I bailed before they did their big "reboot", but still...
EDIT: And you'll have to drag my copy of "Junta" away from my cold, dead hands...
Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.
I'm suprised that game company owners let themselves get seethingly angry in public. I seldom get angry online... I just play along politely, suffering the slings and arrows, and then locate mine enemies and slowly cripple the rest of their lives. I mean, isn't that the mature way to strike back? Really now. Can't we all just get along (while serving it up cold afterwards)? ;)
Can't we all just get along (while serving it up cold afterwards)? ;)I'm never, ever, going to accept a cold-cut sandwich from you again ;)
LOL! Well, I promise the chips that come with my complimentary revenge sandwiches are not formed from dried and salted skin flays.
Back before WEG lost the StarWars license most of my RPG collection consisted of WEG products (namely StarWars). It's sad to see the company "die" again...
... plus I never really got the chance to play much TORG back in the day
Same as me. In the late eighties / early nineties, I bought a lot of what WEG put out, but pretty much everything Star Wars. I loved the d6 system, it was so easy to get players into because it used 'normal' dice . I was a big fan of the Star Warriors game too - the recent SW Miniatures Battles game IMHO doesn't qualify as much of a game when it's compared to the more complex but richer Star Warriors. Even after WEG lost the licence, I looked in every now and again to see what they were doing.
I never played TORG either, but got the starter books for it. It was always an interesting setting, but never got round to running it with my playgroup back then.
I hope someone can do something with the name, at least. It'd be a shame if West End Games simply became just a warm yet distant memory and an infrequently modified article on Wikipedia.
Chobbly
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The really sad thing in all of this is that Eric was planning to release the d6 system under the OGL. Unfortunately, this will probably never happen as a result of the current situation.
Over on the WEG boards, Eric has revealed that he has been approached by Phil Reed about buying the rights for the d6 system on behalf of Steve Jackson Games. Phil is apparently also interested in the rights to the Shatterzone setting - although it is unclear whether this is for SJ Games or Ronin Arts. Either way, this could be a good move for both partners if it happens.
I don't suppose that Paizo would consider diversifying into the space opera genre using the d6 rules? I think that there would be a market for such products - many gamers have fond memories of the d6 system from the heyday of the original Star Wars RPG. It was always one of the best rules-light systems for fast-paced cinematic gaming. Personally, I think that a space opera setting would fit in well with the overall 'feel' of Paizo, which seems to be slanted towards classic pulp fantasy and SF. However, it might be a bit much to ask Paizo to take on another major development project at the same time as it is pouring resources into the upcoming Pathfinder RPG.
This is a sad state of affairs for Eric Gibson; I don't know him, but I had high hopes for Torg 2.0 (I run a Torg game every other week now). Now it seems that he's out of the industry.
Nearly 20 years of gaming industry advancement could have done stellar things for Torg 2.0, I think. I only hope that someone takes Eric up on his sale offer and puts a good mind to Torg.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.
I'm suprised that game company owners let themselves get seethingly angry in public. I seldom get angry online... I just play along politely, suffering the slings and arrows, and then locate mine enemies and slowly cripple the rest of their lives. I mean, isn't that the mature way to strike back? Really now. Can't we all just get along (while serving it up cold afterwards)? ;)
Whatever. You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. If I had a nickel for every time...
...one second, someone's at the door...
OH GOD, IT BURNS, IT BURNS, SOMEONE CALL 911, THE PAIN IS SO GREAT I CAN BARELY TYPE THIS MESSAGE. WON'T SOMEONE CALL FOR HELP. DEAR GOD, PLEASE, HELP ME.
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Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.
I'm suprised that game company owners let themselves get seethingly angry in public. I seldom get angry online... I just play along politely, suffering the slings and arrows, and then locate mine enemies and slowly cripple the rest of their lives. I mean, isn't that the mature way to strike back? Really now. Can't we all just get along (while serving it up cold afterwards)? ;)
Whatever. You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. If I had a nickel for every time...
...one second, someone's at the door...
OH GOD, IT BURNS, IT BURNS, SOMEONE CALL 911, THE PAIN IS SO GREAT I CAN BARELY TYPE THIS MESSAGE. WON'T SOMEONE CALL FOR HELP. DEAR GOD, PLEASE, HELP ME.
*Lies on the beach, relaxing, ignoring the calls for help......*
Sorry that is probably a sore subject if someone gets the reference....
Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.
I'm suprised that game company owners let themselves get seethingly angry in public. I seldom get angry online... I just play along politely, suffering the slings and arrows, and then locate mine enemies and slowly cripple the rest of their lives. I mean, isn't that the mature way to strike back? Really now. Can't we all just get along (while serving it up cold afterwards)? ;)
Whatever. You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. If I had a nickel for every time...
...one second, someone's at the door...
OH GOD, IT BURNS, IT BURNS, SOMEONE CALL 911, THE PAIN IS SO GREAT I CAN BARELY TYPE THIS MESSAGE. WON'T SOMEONE CALL FOR HELP. DEAR GOD, PLEASE, HELP ME.
A huge real-life laugh cascades as I type in how funny you are. And clever. Flever. Sebastian, you're damn flever. I certainly wouldn't ever call you cunny. ;)
*goes to cry in a corner**frantically looks for lilith's blackberry info to bring cookies*
Aww, does someone need cookies and a glass of milk?
*gives Nameless some cookies and milk*
I don't suppose that Paizo would consider diversifying into the space opera genre using the d6 rules? I think that there would be a market for such products - many gamers have fond memories of the d6 system from the heyday of the original Star Wars RPG. It was always one of the best rules-light systems for fast-paced cinematic gaming. Personally, I think that a space opera setting would fit in well with the overall 'feel' of Paizo, which seems to be slanted towards classic pulp fantasy and SF. However, it might be a bit much to ask Paizo to take on another major development project at the same time as it is pouring resources into the upcoming Pathfinder RPG.
Actually, I think it would be AWESOME if Paizo (had the resources to be) diversified in the Space Opera genre using any system (including a varient of the exiting PathfinderRPG).
Wow. That is really depressing news. I was really looking forward to the Open D6 System when it came out. Certainly it would have been awesome to play Dark Horizons with.
Anyway that's a lot of my early roleplaying career there. Some of the first games I ever bought were West End. Time was, whenever a really great sci-fi game would come out I would start checking the bookstores to see if it'd gotten adapted into a West End Game.
Paranoia was awesome too. A lot of good times.
Man. I'm bummed. I sure hope something good comes of all of this. Just a dang shame.
The funny thing is, much as I have no idea who the heck Dana Jorgensen even is--weirdly now I think he's a total dufus now and want to give him a savage beating. Weird, since I totally have no idea what happened or where the blame really falls. I think I'm just terminally sick of good gaming stuff getting killed by dumb people.
I dunno. I'm gonna' go take a nap.
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Actually, I think it would be AWESOME if Paizo (had the resources to be) diversified in the Space Opera genre using any system (including a varient of the exiting PathfinderRPG).
Agreed. The market lacks a good space opera RPG at the moment. Traveller is fun, but is heavily tied to the Third Imperium setting - which is a bit too idiosyncratic for generic space opera. The recent Thousand Suns RPG from Rogue Games shows promise, but lacks the kind of support necessary to build a strong market presence. Surprisingly, the level of support that WoTC has given the Star Wars d20 version license has been inconsistent. All of which seems to indicate that there is a market niche here waiting for the right product....
Agreed. The market lacks a good space opera RPG at the moment. Traveller is fun, but is heavily tied to the Third Imperium setting - which is a bit too idiosyncratic for generic space opera. The recent Thousand Suns RPG from Rogue Games shows promise, but lacks the kind of support necessary to build a strong market presence. Surprisingly, the level of support that WoTC has given the Star Wars d20 version license has been inconsistent. All of which seems to indicate that there is a market niche here waiting for the right product....
Have you checked out Reign of Discordia for True20? The author, Darrin Drader, talks about it in this podcast here.
Agreed. The market lacks a good space opera RPG at the moment. Traveller is fun, but is heavily tied to the Third Imperium setting - which is a bit too idiosyncratic for generic space opera. The recent Thousand Suns RPG from Rogue Games shows promise, but lacks the kind of support necessary to build a strong market presence. Surprisingly, the level of support that WoTC has given the Star Wars d20 version license has been inconsistent. All of which seems to indicate that there is a market niche here waiting for the right product...
Try D20 Future. Seriously, the book is made out of gold. It's really good stuff. That and in a few weeks there will be Dark Horizons, about the best dark space opera fare I could hope for. Really, it's by Nick Logue for crying out loud.
...anyway back to my nap.
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The funny thing is, much as I have no idea who the Dana Jorgensen is--but weirdly I think he's a dufus now and want to hit him. Weird, since I totally have no idea what happened or where the blame really falls. I think I'm just terminally sick of good gaming stuff getting killed by dumb people.
I dunno. I'm gonna' go take a nap.
Dana Jorgensen is a controversial figure best known as the author of d20 modern supplements published by Alternate Realities Publications. As a big fan of the Cyberpunk 2020 game system, he was extremely active on the R.Talsorian message boards a few years ago. He has been involved in a number of flame wars over the years and was banned from EN World as a result of one of them. These days he seems to be less active in PDF publishing, but writes regular reviews over on RPG.Net
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Have you checked out Reign of Discordia for True20? The author, Darrin Drader, talks about it in this podcast here.
Thanks...I'll have to check this one out. I like True20 a lot.
I've been running a hard SF game using GURPS 4e - which works great - but unfortunately GURPS isn't that good for cinematic space opera settings.
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Try D20 Future. Seriously, the book is made out of gold. It's really good stuff. That and in a few weeks there will be Dark Horizons, about the best dark space opera fare I could hope for. Really, it's by Nick Logue for crying out loud.
...anyway back to my nap.
D20 Future is OK, but I personally think that the system is a bit too rules-heavy in places. I'm not sure how well it would work in practice for a fast-paced space opera game. Some of the stuff in that book is very good though - and a lot of it was released under the OGL. Maybe it'll get the Pathfinder treatment someday in the distant future...
I am really, really looking forward to Dark Horizons setting though. I've been waiting a while for it.
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Aww, does someone need cookies and a glass of milk?
*gives Nameless some cookies and milk*
*comes out from the corner, nibbles at cookies*
Thankee, sai!
I gotta say, I don't think I'm going to miss WEG that much, I never got into their 'big' systems such as Star Wars RPG d6. My first ever RPG was made by them though: The World of Indiana Jones. It was... interesting. But it was clearly a good gateway RPG... :)
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Back in the day, I purchased every TORG product I could get my hands on, and recently purchased the TORG Revised and Expanded hardcover, just to see what it was like, and collate various rules into one book.
Unfortunately, as with many of the systems I purchased, I never got an opportunity to play it. My gaming back then was occasional, and D&D was always the common-knowledge ruleset. I desperately wanted a D20 version of Torg, but never had the time to devote to such an endeavour.
My personal opinions of TORG:
- TORG has an intriguing mix of cross-genres (including common Fantasy, Horror, PulpFiction, TechnoDemons, CyberReligious and others), and a somewhat plausible reason for them to occur in the same setting (invasion of Earth);
- though I think they lost focus by introducing maybe too many "pocket dimensions", Earth Below, Akasha etc. instead of supporting the cosms they already had in more detail;
- TORG had a rather Saturday cartoon villainry feel about it, reflected in some rather sketchy artwork, and the whole premise for the invasions being to steal Earth's "possibility energy" being a little hokey. I feel with better art direction and updating the invasion as a grab for Earth's resources, souls, etc befitting each invading cosm's needs, for more credibility and gritty realism, making it personal, would really lift TORG as a campaign;
- The TORG novels (if you can get your hands on them - long out-of-print) are a must read, as they provide great flavour and context for the RPG.
TORG is cross-genre done well, at least in flavour, and I haven't really seen anything comparable to it by any other company. It really makes you think about cross-genre in a new way.
TORG uses 20-sided dice for action resolution such as skills, combat etc, and is *screaming* for a D20 conversion! With a little love from a new publisher, I think TORG could really SHINE! I recall reading posts from Paizo staff who have mentioned playing TORG with some nostalgia (not that long ago, but I can't seem to search it now). I dream of a Paizo D20 Torg Adventure Path, and cry in my sleep. Purchase TORG for the campaign setting, not for the system. Please help me Paizo!
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Back in the day, I purchased every TORG product I could get my hands on, and recently purchased the TORG Revised and Expanded hardcover, just to see what it was like, and collate various rules into one book.
Unfortunately, as with many of the systems I purchased, I never got an opportunity to play it. My gaming back then was occasional, and D&D was always the common-knowledge ruleset. I desperately wanted a D20 version of Torg, but never had the time to devote to such an endeavour.
My personal opinions of TORG:
- TORG has an intriguing mix of cross-genres (including common Fantasy, Horror, PulpFiction, TechnoDemons, CyberReligious and others), and a somewhat plausible reason for them to occur in the same setting (invasion of Earth);
- though I think they lost focus by introducing maybe too many "pocket dimensions", Earth Below, Akasha etc. instead of supporting the cosms they already had in more detail;
- TORG had a rather Saturday cartoon villainry feel about it, reflected in some rather sketchy artwork, and the whole premise for the invasions being to steal Earth's "possibility energy" being a little hokey. I feel with better art direction and updating the invasion as a grab for Earth's resources, souls, etc befitting each invading cosm's needs, for more credibility and gritty realism, making it personal, would really lift TORG as a campaign;
- The TORG novels (if you can get your hands on them - long out-of-print) are a must read, as they provide great flavour and context for the RPG.
TORG is cross-genre done well, at least in flavour, and I haven't really seen anything comparable to it by any other company. It really makes you think about cross-genre in a new way.
TORG uses 20-sided dice for action resolution such as skills, combat etc, and is *screaming* for a D20 conversion! With a little love from a new publisher, I think TORG could really SHINE! I recall reading posts from Paizo staff who...
I have to agree I am in the same boat. I have the books, but never played it. I'd love to see an updated rules set that was d20 and still used a drama deck, like the dork 20 deck. I'd like to see the setting some how "reset". Some of the overlords seem a little odd given todays fiction.
Perhaps the Earth in the series has thrown off its oppressors and a new earth is targeted with some of the Storm Knights from the old setting crossing over to the new world to help.
Torg in many ways seems like it influenced Stargate in many ways if only unintentionally.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I gotta say, I don't think I'm going to miss WEG that much, I never got into their 'big' systems such as Star Wars RPG d6. My first ever RPG was made by them though: The World of Indiana Jones. It was... interesting. But it was clearly a good gateway RPG... :)
The World of Indiana Jones (hot on the heels of TSR's amazingly unplayable Indiana Jones RPG) was one of the licensed proprties WEG cast into the MASTERBOOK system.
I'd played in a long-running TORG campaign, (the game's name, by the way, came from pre-production notes, when it was an abbreviation of "The Other Role-playing Game") and I really wanted to like MASTERBOOK, because I thought it'd solved some of TORG's minor problems.
But it was very disappointing. Whoever produced MASTERBOOK took the TORG deck and just cut off the second half to make the MasterDeck, without realizing that he'd unbalanced the deck. The newer game had eight stats, instead of six, but the same number of points to spend on a beginning character.
All in all, it was really hard to succeed in most MASTERBOOK adventures. It wasn't "gritty" or "mean streats". It was just frustrating. (Did no-one ever play-test this stuff??)
The TORG Aysle magic system was beautiful, and MASTERBOOK kind of nerfed it, too, making it simpler, more generic, and much more limited. The MB system allowed you to build Fireball spells, but not much else of any use.
If I were to run a MASTERBOOK campaign these days, I'd go at some of the systems with a wrench. But it would be a terrific game, like nothing on the current market.
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Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.
Wow.
I read the previous page, out of morbid curiosity.My girlfriend came by (not a gamer) and we both read the thread with open-mouthed fascination.
We have to know; Who is Ken Whitman?
There must be a tale to tell there, since making the comparison sent Gibson apoplectic.
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If I were to run a MASTERBOOK campaign these days, I'd go at some of the systems with a wrench. But it would be a terrific game, like nothing on the current market.
Yeah, I remember thinking that it had a lot of good ideas, but it seemed a little clunky to use. I remember how when I first opened up my 3rd Edition PHB, I saw the skill system and thought to myself: "Hmm, this seems familiar and easy to grasp! Thanks, MasterBook!"
I only ever ran one game using the MasterBook system, and it did not last long. Though maybe I'd have played it a bit more if I'd known some people who actually enjoyed playing RPGs at the time. :)
Wow. He really loses his mind in this post. The one that got him banned from this forum.Wow.
I read the previous page, out of morbid curiosity.
My girlfriend came by (not a gamer) and we both read the thread with open-mouthed fascination.We have to know; Who is Ken Whitman?
There must be a tale to tell there, since making the comparison sent Gibson apoplectic.
I was wondering the very same thing.
Back in the day, I purchased every TORG product I could get my hands on, and recently purchased the TORG Revised and Expanded hardcover, just to see what it was like, and collate various rules into one book.
Unfortunately, as with many of the systems I purchased, I never got an opportunity to play it. My gaming back then was occasional, and D&D was always the common-knowledge ruleset. I desperately wanted a D20 version of Torg, but never had the time to devote to such an endeavour.
My personal opinions of TORG:
- TORG has an intriguing mix of cross-genres (including common Fantasy, Horror, PulpFiction, TechnoDemons, CyberReligious and others), and a somewhat plausible reason for them to occur in the same setting (invasion of Earth);
- though I think they lost focus by introducing maybe too many "pocket dimensions", Earth Below, Akasha etc. instead of supporting the cosms they already had in more detail;
- TORG had a rather Saturday cartoon villainry feel about it, reflected in some rather sketchy artwork, and the whole premise for the invasions being to steal Earth's "possibility energy" being a little hokey. I feel with better art direction and updating the invasion as a grab for Earth's resources, souls, etc befitting each invading cosm's needs, for more credibility and gritty realism, making it personal, would really lift TORG as a campaign;
- The TORG novels (if you can get your hands on them - long out-of-print) are a must read, as they provide great flavour and context for the RPG.
TORG is cross-genre done well, at least in flavour, and I haven't really seen anything comparable to it by any other company. It really makes you think about cross-genre in a new way.
TORG uses 20-sided dice for action resolution such as skills, combat etc, and is *screaming* for a D20 conversion! With a little love from a new publisher, I think TORG could really SHINE! I recall reading posts...
In my high school days, I played a lot of d6 Star Wars (never enjoyed the subsequent editions as much), but my gaming group's baby was TORG. We played it WAAAAAAAAY more than D&D. I still have all the books (I think I'm actually missing 3) and hope to run it again someday.
While the setting has issues (as mentioned above), it is spectacularly unique way to do cross-genre. The system is superb and allows for laserbeams, fireballs, and mind-reading to exist side-by-side. The true element of genius, though, is the Drama Deck. I keep thinking about trying to get the rights to TORG and update it, but I can't think of a better system than the Drama Deck. In fact, I would love to come up with a way to translate it into other games ...
O
I was wondering the very same thing.
This sort of thing makes me wonder why we spend $10 to go see movies?
There's more than enough drama on the Internet, for all!
Why I remember when they'd let you into the movies for a nickel and a smile. Oh you'd get your hair mussed by a well meaning, admiring adult ticket seller, but it was all in good fun and everyone looked the way Norman Rockwell painted...
These days it's ten bucks, ever rising toward a hundred bucks per ticket.
But in the future the cost of admission will be a finger. Wire clips in hand they'll snip your digits right where they presently rip your tickets (all witness mine rhyme). Needless to say, salted popcorn will become quite the challenge what with a bloody lil stump gettin' in the way.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ken Whitman has a reputation as a slick game publishing huckser.
Speaking only about things I know to be true, Mr. Whitman and "Whit Publications" offered aspiring RPG writers support and encouragement in designing new game systems. I was part of the playtest group for two writing teams who submitted games to Whit Publications. Anybody ever heard of the "World Wrestling Federation" RPG? The other game never hit the market, and both teams lost money. It struck me as a "vanity press" affair.
Ken Whitman was one of the founders of "Imperium Games", the publisher of the notoriously typo-filled and buggy "Traveller 4". He was also one of the founders of Archangel Games, and one of the founders of Dynasty Presentations, Inc.
Reading these posts, I feel quite advantaged: I played two separate Torg campaigns back in the day, each lasting 5+ years, and I've now been running a Torg game for just over a year, and it's going strong.
For the Torg-interested, be sure to take a look at Jasyn Jones' stellar Torg materials.
I also played and ran heaps of Masterbook. In fact, we ended up using it pretty much as the designers hoped: as the base rules set for other oddball games we played (not just Indiana Jones, but home-brew murder mystery games, a home-brew game set in the world of Warhammer 40K, etc.). Everyone in our gaming circle knew those rules, so we could apply them to a lot of things. In that sense, it did for us then what the d20 system does for my gaming group now.
I agree that Masterbook's SFX system was a pale shadow of Torg's systems, but the SFX system was intended to be generic, while Torg had a lot of specialty systems whose rules did not overlap (magic spells different than pulp powers different than miracles different than occult rituals...). A rebuild of Torg and/or Masterbook from the ground up by smarter heads than mine would be a beautiful thing.
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Why I remember when they'd let you into the movies for a nickel and a smile. Oh you'd get your hair mussed by a well meaning, admiring adult ticket seller, but it was all in good fun and everyone looked the way Norman Rockwell painted...
These days it's ten bucks, ever rising toward a hundred bucks per ticket.
But in the future the cost of admission will be a finger. Wire clips in hand they'll snip your digits right where they presently rip your tickets (all witness mine rhyme). Needless to say, salted popcorn will become quite the challenge what with a bloody lil stump gettin' in the way.
Of course, cloning facilities will be rampant to replace said fingers. Definintely still mildly inconvenient, though. What if you want to point at the screen, but have been to a lot of movies lately?
Won't it be so worth it to have a part of yourself cut off just so you can be annoyed by people talking loudly in the theatre, as well as people walking around during the beginning of the movie? It's *so* worth it!
Of course, cloning facilities will be rampant to replace said fingers. Definintely still mildly inconvenient, though. What if you want to point at the screen, but have been to a lot of movies lately?Won't it be so worth it to have a part of yourself cut off just so you can be annoyed by people talking loudly in the theatre, as well as people walking around during the beginning of the movie? It's *so* worth it!
Nameless... a sincere thanks. You've just given me the source of one of my next Rone Rants for my podcast. People, and their kids especially, talking in movie theaters. I was starting to just type it all out here, but I think it'll be funnier voiced.