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I can. Most of the "small core" bought 10 or 20 books each of FR. Even if they get 10 times as many new fans - which I do not believe - selling 1 or 2 books each to everyone would barely make up for the loss.The question was more how many were there before the 4e Realms, rather than after. The point was that WotC could have pitched the setting at people wth a deep understanding of it - which quite possibly would have led to no sales outside a diminishing core fan base that might well have not even bothered with 4e anyway (Greenwood didn't even get to 3e) - or try to broaden its appeal by de-emphasising the back history. While I can agree the means they went about it was cack-handed, I can't really argue with the commercial logic.Almost none, now that they have died out.
A proportion of diehard fans, certainly, but how many are there really?
Well, only if the the core is 10% or more of the buyers. It might be, or it might not. Commercial risk. Plus, of course, it is also intended to draw people in to DDI and the subscription income from that.
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But, you did get that from wikipediaTrue, I did get it from wiki...
I was looking for an article I read a while back that had an interview with Jeff Grubb where he said this same thing. Though I could not find it...
So I'm pretty sure they got this one right :-)
I know they did, I was just trying to give the current FR designers an "out". Seriously, if it was that easy to find (I'm assuming it took you two seconds), there's no reason for the 4e FRCS team to NOT KNOW THAT!
;)
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Found what I was looking for! I pulled it from a post I made on this thread way back on page 5 (I did list my sources)...
Found a couple of things on this (the first quote comes from the "Forgotten Realms Mailing List Archive", and the second quote comes from Ed Greenwood himself on the Candlekeep Forums)...
Faerun was the name of the continent Ed's original campaign was set on,
but Ed had no name for the planet itself. I looted the name Toril from my
own campaign for the world. When we did the original grey box, we did all
the entries in alphabetical order. It made sense to put something about
the world itself FIRST, so I tacked on the Abeir title before it so it
world fall at the beginning of the catalog.I remember mentioning elsewhere that the Abeir-Toril title means "cradle
of life" in an archaic tongue. While I never stated which was which, I
always assumed that "toril" was the word for life and "abeir" was the word
for originator, cradle, or home.Finally, as a note, Toril was not my original name for my campaign back in
'75 - it was Toricandra, influenced by CS Lewis. Toril quickly became the
shorthand I used, and eventually took over entirely.
Jeff contributed the name of the planet (Toril, to which he added the prefix Abeir to shift the world entry to the front of the alphabetical listings in the Old Grey Box) from his campaign. I had no world name because the folks in Faerun knew they lived on something that curved, but considered it all one land.
*EDIT*
It amuses me that I found my own post on a google search (especially one that is just shy of being a year old)...
But then I guess I'm just easily amused... ;-)
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
well you have to expect them to 1: Wish to learn of the setting and 2: not hate it so much it hurts
StuffOnly two problems: Tieflings were, for the most part, a Thayan thing. They started showing up in Faerun when the Thayans started getting it on with lower planar beings, apparently.
The "Abeir" in Abeir-Toril was the name of the planet, and Greenwood didn't come up with the name "Abier", Jeff Grubb did (Abeir was the name of his homebrew, and was added to FR in '87 when he and Ed worked on the first boxed set together). Furthermore, the "Abeir" being a separate world is specifically a 4e thing, since, apparently, the 4e Realms designers didn't KNOW it wasn't two worlds.
I'm no realmsologist(or fan), but I didn't know that about the tieflings- were they "shoehorned" into the setting after the popularity of Planescape or no? What about aasimar?
tiflings have been in thay a long time as have half fiends.The old empire also were known to have them.A few gods have bloodlines most notably Besheba( they had antlers) and Mask(cast no shadow) Gargath had more then anyone if I recall
As for Aasimar bout 5% OF mulhorand can trace the bloodline back to the god kings so they re common( well as much as any planetouched is) there
Tifling were shoehorned in as you put it after planscape however half fiends and there offspring where known in Thay they just did not gain the name tifling till later
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"Don't waste your time tring to bring WotC down! Build your preferred setting/system up!"
This is spot on! I have the same issue with political campaigns where each candidate is only insulting or criticizing the other guy. I don't want to know why I shouldn't vote for the other guy, why should I vote for you?
No point in continuing to tell outsiders why we don't like one setting, let's tell everyone how much we love Golarion and the adventure paths.
Oh yeah...smurf
tiflings have been in thay a long time as have half fiends.The old empire also were known to have them.A few gods have bloodlines most notably Besheba( they had antlers) and Mask(cast no shadow) Gargath had more then anyone if I recall
As for Aasimar bout 5% OF mulhorand can trace the bloodline back to the god kings so they re common( well as much as any planetouched is) thereTifling were shoehorned in as you put it after planscape however half fiends and there offspring where known in Thay they just did not gain the name tifling till later
Very interesting...So these tieflings were originally related to the gods(in the case of Beshaba or Mask)?
Thanks for the info.
Not always but there are bloodlines from them gods. Many trace back to fiends like always however there are some god bloodlines. Beshda's bloodline tends to have antlers and white hair, while the one known mask bloodline cast no shadow.
Most come from thay and Mulhorand really. Or that is where the family started Set and sebek have fathered children as well so many tiflings can trace it back to them. There are more butt hat is what I recall off hand
The thing to recall in the old empires is well the gods were mortal avatars and rules for many thousands of years as living gods. The had outsider servants as well. So planetouched are not unknown at all in that region
Which I found odd that they dropped dragonborn on it
I'm no fan of the Forgetable Realms, but it strikes me as interesting that the main defenders of 4th ed. (who post on these message boards), are quite absent on this thread. Wonder why?...Your sure spoiling for a fight. By your own admission you've no horse in this race but your still lobbing things on the tack hoping for a crash.
Actually, I'm not. My statement was an observation for the consideration and comment of those who do not have a stake in 4ed. There was nothing in my post that invited pro-4Ed individuals to reply. My post was not made to them. Clearly, they have inferred otherwise, but that's their decision. I don't need a PhD to tell you that there are a lot of people with awfully thin skin on these boards, who leap to "offense" at the slightest provocation, intended or unintended.
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Well, this is an emotional issue, when all is said and done. That is probably appropriate, providing we aim our ire at the game rather than each other. There is a lot of bitterness concerning the changes to FR, and also concerning the launch of 4e. I can't entirely tell which came first - dislike of 4e or dislike of 4e FR - but they certainly seem to come together as far as I can tell, together with a great anger at WotC. But it is also worth mentioning that there are plenty of us who are happily playing 4e, don't feel particular anger towards WotC, and don't mind the changes to the FR setting.
When someone writes "I don't see the defenders of 4e here" that's getting a bit personal, and anyway, some of us are here. Some of us don't want to get involved (though by and large this has been devoid of individual attacks, and been about FR) as the rage on display here is a bit unsettling, and has the potential to turn unpleasant. And anyway, to some extent this isn't about 4e, it is about FR (they could have blown it up under 3e if they had wanted to) though the two have become conflated in some of the comments. So let's talk about the setting, not about whether so-and-so is here to defend 4e, which isn't really the point.
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Some of us don't want to get involved
Maybe they should.
There is an overtone similar to labor union picket lines, where scabs walk through in an attempt to stay uninvolved and just do their day's work. I seem to recall the unsettling appearance of harsh conditions for some teacher unions, all the while they would watch scabs walk through the line and into work, not wanting to get involved.
But, you're right Aubrey. This is different. Because there seems to be no recourse against a mega-corp, whereas at least unions are formed with regard to work-fairness, largely stemming from a reaction to harsh working conditions during the industrial revolution of the late 19th century and early 20th.
All of that said, its also very hard to be mad at fellow gamers, and frankly, speaking for myself, it is again the blame of the company who put gamers into this situation, not the fault of gamers.
But if I could make one plea, it would be for all gamers, to at least recognize the obvious attitude/disposition that company has demonstrated in words and actions, and be at least sympathetic to this plight. It would be like asking consumers everywhere to also consider the integrity of a company where decisions to buy elsewhere are available.
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I think I meant "not get involved" as in not participate in a potential flame war. I certainly don't think there is anything that can be done about 4e FR - I can't see WotC saying "Hey guys, this Spellplague thing, terrible idea, don't know what we were thinking, so we're going to pretend it hasn't happened and bring out a whole new set of 4e FR books instead." As someone has said above, you can play 4e in the "old" verion of FR perfectly easily, or you can forget about 4e and play 3.5 Pathfinder instead. It is a shame that the timeline has been disrupted like this but nothing prevents anyone playing in their preferred version of FR. It just means that WotC will have nothing to do with it on an ongoing basis, which in some ways is a bit sad but in others possibly a liberation.
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Interestingly I have just read a thread over at the WOTC site, which admitdley I dont visit hardly ever anymore, which was started by one of these alleged "new" realms fans and do you know what his question was? something along the lines of "Where can I find out more about the History of the realms?" He was of course pointed towards the wealth of 2e and 3e matarial.
I thought one of the reasons for this "new realms" was so that the new players wouldnt be "intimidated" by all the history and lore? and the first thing they want is the old history and lore which wotc told us was a problem with the realms! Id link it but I cant really be bothered.
Personally I have been playing and dming in the realms for years and will continue to do so but with Pathfinder rules, and I tend to run my games before the time of troubles!
I would add my thoughts about the new campaign world which wotc are calling the forgotten realms, but I wont because its pretty much all been said, suffice to say I dont like it. I would have a rant about how much I dont like it but I just dont have the energy anymore and am content with what im doing with the realms and I think my players are too.
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"new" realms fans ...asking.... something along the lines of "Where can I find out more about the History of the realms?"
Thanks for not linking. And thanks for sharing the example of how your Realms timeline simply continues without wotc.
This makes me wonder if a bunch of us shouldn't pop over to Candlekeep and cheer those folks up. Perhaps, encourage the same thing, as a fan-based creation of canon on the realms (if desired, but we are likely all now 'officially' free from wotc.)
But it is worth mentioning that there is a "buzz" lately about the direction of the industry. Geniouses like Monte Cook have been intimating that the near future may simply hold a community of gamer-built games for gamers by gamers, sold and traded between one another.
With the destruction of the realms, imho, has also come the official end of the mega-corp in the gaming industry. Moreover, at recent conventions, there have been loud rumblings from companies pretty much sick of, and therefore finished with, being told what to write, print, and sell.
The times, they are a changin'.
The times, they are a changin'.
I certainly hope so. I for one am sick and tired of people making decisions based ONLY on $$$. That's a terrible way to be as a person and it ties in terribly with a company who is based on an imaginary game world. Big business need to get out of the creative business. It stinks at it. Leave it to the small guys.
To be fair Derek the 4e team didn't know much about the setting at all.
That's no defense. "I didn't know hitting people in the face if they didn't like my sports team was wrong" never kept anyone out of jail, either.
tty sure they got this one right :-)I know they did, I was just trying to give the current FR designers an "out".
I'd be all in favour for that. Get the hell "out" of the industry ;-)
I certainly hope so. I for one am sick and tired of people making decisions based ONLY on $$$. That's a terrible way to be as a person and it ties in terribly with a company who is based on an imaginary game world. Big business need to get out of the creative business. It stinks at it. Leave it to the small guys.
The times, they are a changin'.
That's what I love about Paizo. For them, there are things besides making money. The all play the game, they love the game, they want the game - and its community - to flourish.
And anyway, to some extent this isn't about 4e, it is about FR (they could have blown it up under 3e if they had wanted to) though the two have become conflated in some of the comments.
For me, it is really the same issue, because it comes from the same source: wizards' attitude.
Sure, they could have done all that crap under 3e, but they did it under 4e, and because of 4e. They wanted to shoehorn the setting into the new game and the new game's assumptions, and they felt that could only be done by making it a new setting with the old name.
The death of the Realms was also what gave me the first hint that wizards had lost their mind: In the beginning, I was optimistic about 4e. There was not that much information, mostly assurances that it will be Awesome!!!!!!! and vague snippets about changes, which were sounding good at the time. But when I learned that they had effectively canned the Realms and used the name on something else, I got the first warning that all was not well. And after that, all the rest came in: Specifics about the rules changes, the start of the "3e sucks and if you like it you're a loser" campaign, the whole GSL thing, the suppression of those who didn't like 4e on wizards' own boards, the PDF debacle, and so on.
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I've seen this kind of outrage twice before, and fo vitally identical reasons: when GDW released MEGA-TRAVELLER and TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA, which wrote about the double/triple catastrophe that collapsed the Fifth Imperium of Man and introduced a new "points of light" setting in its wake, and the Giffen /Bierbaum reboot of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES which brought into question the immense and detailed 30th-Century history of the seies.
In each case, there was a sizable fan-base that enjoyed just knowing all the details of the elaborate setting and keeping up with new developments that respected that depth.
I imagine the same kind of fan eruption would take place if fantasy literature settings like Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series or Martin's "Song of Fire and Ice" saga were blown up to make it simpler for new fans to start reading without being caught up in the elaborate backstory.
In these cases, the designers forget that the elaborate backstory is one of the appeals to THESE fans of THIS setting.
Which is why, when GURPS rebooted Traveller, they resumed the Fifth Imperium, with strong suggestions that someone with the ablity to travel back in time prevented the imperial assassination that served asa flashpoint for the MEGA-TRAVELLER wars.
I know I was bowing out of this thread for a while, but since Chris brought up the Legion . . .
My girls (now 14 and 17, then a few years younger) had just started getting in to the Legion storyline, and really enjoying various characters from the storyline, and actually liking some of the outlines of stories that I had told them about the Legion.
When I started looking at the first trade paperback of the "new" Legion, and sketched out to my daughters the changes and the new status quo, their interest in anything Legion died a quick death.
I know I was bowing out of this thread for a while, but since Chris brought up the Legion . . .
My girls (now 14 and 17, then a few years younger) had just started getting in to the Legion storyline, and really enjoying various characters from the storyline, and actually liking some of the outlines of stories that I had told them about the Legion.
When I started looking at the first trade paperback of the "new" Legion, and sketched out to my daughters the changes and the new status quo, their interest in anything Legion died a quick death.
Did you say...Legion?
I hated the new Legion at first, but they grew on me after a while. I really liked the fact that when new talent came in, they did not automatically reboot. I'm still loving Legion of 3 Worlds, and getting to see everyone fight(and yes, die) together.
And while you're making sure your facts are straight, consider the differences between a game where most players are fans because of one particular setting (Traveller, 3I) and one where most people care nothing for setting at all but do their own thing (D&D, homebrew).
There you are so wrong. Many people love the setting because it is the setting. It has been played with many rules sets but it is the setting they love. Far more then some love the rule set.
Wotc picked the very wrong setting to mess with on such a scale. FR was the best selling setting because people loved it. Not for what rule set it used
Well, this is an emotional issue, when all is said and done. That is probably appropriate, providing we aim our ire at the game rather than each other. There is a lot of bitterness concerning the changes to FR, and also concerning the launch of 4e. I can't entirely tell which came first - dislike of 4e or dislike of 4e FR - but they certainly seem to come together as far as I can tell, together with a great anger at WotC. But it is also worth mentioning that there are plenty of us who are happily playing 4e, don't feel particular anger towards WotC, and don't mind the changes to the FR setting.
When someone writes "I don't see the defenders of 4e here" that's getting a bit personal, and anyway, some of us are here. Some of us don't want to get involved (though by and large this has been devoid of individual attacks, and been about FR) as the rage on display here is a bit unsettling, and has the potential to turn unpleasant. And anyway, to some extent this isn't about 4e, it is about FR (they could have blown it up under 3e if they had wanted to) though the two have become conflated in some of the comments. So let's talk about the setting, not about whether so-and-so is here to defend 4e, which isn't really the point.
Though as stated, my remarks were not intended to provoke a response from the pro-4Ed & 4ed FR crowds; an occasional 'jab' is sometimes useful in jumpstarting a debate if done "appropriately". Granted, it clearly is an 'emotional issue' for some posters. It need not be however. It's a Fictional RPG we're talking about here. We're not debating the merits of human rights legislation in Congress (or in your case Parliment). I've had posters be less than cordial with me. I choose not to take offense whether or not it is merited. Hardly worth being angry over when you really get down to it. At the end of the day, politicians go home and have drinks with the opposition they've argued with all day long in government. So in a nutshell, it ain't personal.
Furthermore, the Hard-core 4ed defenders on this website troll these boards so thoroughly, and craft such carefully polished responses, that they must literally spend hours each day doing so. That suggests that they are "less-than-objective" in their viewpoints, and begs the question, exactly why do these folks care so much whether others like or speak well of 4ed (FR or otherwise) or not.|
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"new" realms fans ...asking.... something along the lines of "Where can I find out more about the History of the realms?"Thanks for not linking. And thanks for sharing the example of how your Realms timeline simply continues without wotc.
This makes me wonder if a bunch of us shouldn't pop over to Candlekeep and cheer those folks up. Perhaps, encourage the same thing, as a fan-based creation of canon on the realms (if desired, but we are likely all now 'officially' free from wotc.)
But it is worth mentioning that there is a "buzz" lately about the direction of the industry. Geniouses like Monte Cook have been intimating that the near future may simply hold a community of gamer-built games for gamers by gamers, sold and traded between one another.
With the destruction of the realms, imho, has also come the official end of the mega-corp in the gaming industry. Moreover, at recent conventions, there have been loud rumblings from companies pretty much sick of, and therefore finished with, being told what to write, print, and sell.
The times, they are a changin'.
Ahh, we're pretty cheerful already. Most of the Scribes don't like the changes and have kept their games and such in Pre-Spellplague days, or even thought up BETTER ways to incorporate 4th Edition in the Realms without paving it over with a Vogon bulldozer.
Truth be told, we're fielding just as much requests for history and lore as the WotC boards (if not more, since my common response at WotC is "Ask the scribes at Candlekeep!").
Regarding the Spellplague and changes? I run my Realms up to the CSA adventure trilogy, then set a path divergent from canon after that. Mask and Elistraee aren't dead in my Realms (E took over Vhaeraun's portfolio per Lady Penitent, but did not fall to the assassin's blade). Mystra died, but rather than the Spellplague happening, she released her magic back to her mothers (Selûne is in charge of the Weave, Shar has the Shadow Weave), but neither is more powerful (nor different in the rules), it's simply flavor that good magic-users tend to revere Selûne, evil ones Shar and neutral ones whichever one they want.
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...without paving it over with a Vogon bulldozer.
Yeah.
I heard about I heard a leak about the 100 year jump, and the destruction about 3 weeks before it went public, and here was my reaction....
1) Disbelief - nah! Nobody would actually do that. Its plenty easy enough to create a new setting, why would they, this rumor must be false.
2) Call to action - where can I lie down in front of a bulldozer? I've got my towl and buffered analgesic, just point me in the right direction.
And then... nothing... I couldn't figure out what to do, who to call, and found that everything was already off-to-the-presses. All I could do now was wait.
Then the information started to trickle in. And when I found out what happened, ...my brain felt like it wanted to vomit inside my skull.
I had just finished an amazing 1.5 year campaign set in Forgotten Realms, and I have Candlekeep to thank so very much for all they did to help me as a game master learn what I needed, as I needed it. Seriously, it wasn't hard, and I didn't feel like it was any burden. It was still my campaign, I still made things up, but I totally honored the brilliant history, and local area. I used "authentic" realms places, and write-ups from Volo as sources. I referred to the 25 hardcovers on my shelf, and presented my players with a very rich and elegant Forgotten Realms that was both true to canon, but also very much alive with what I felt was its richness and unique feel.
The realms are very special.
Long live the realms.
And, I guess I would like to see Candlekeep to tell Wizards that .... well .... (I am editing my comments.... please hold.....)
Has Candlekeep thought of advising the wotci that they are not their customer service department?
Might there be a new horizon for Candlekeep, or a full break-away? Could there be legally? If so, I could forsee Candlekeep continuing to house and develop Realmslore.... and publishing their own hardcover books on an annual or bi-annual basis.
Wow, that would be somethin'.
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That's the Third Imperium. The GURPS line was declared alternate history from the start by SJG. Other game lines have continued with the original history. Get your facts straight when you rant.And while you're making sure your facts are straight, consider the differences between a game where most players are fans because of one particular setting (Traveller, 3I) and one where most people care nothing for setting at all but do their own thing (D&D, homebrew).
Hi, Bluenose.
Third Imperium; thank you. I'm posting from a vacation, where I don't have my sources handy, but that was a clunker.
The GURPS history was officially an alternate timeline, but not merely an alternate timeline. Take a look at the Strephon's description of his dream, at the beginning of Chapter One, and at the entry on Dulinor in the encyclopedia section. Something happened there, and the military isn't saying what. The core book also notes (somewhere around page 40 or 41) that there is an Imperial Research Station dedicated to the study of time travel.
I wasn't ranting. Not at all. I honestly can't imagine where you're getting that from.
I wasn't comparing TRAVELLER to D&D. I was comparing the violence done to the TRAVELLER setting, against the violence done to the Forgotten Realms setting. And I'll stand by that comparison.
Here's a FR ignoramus question: does most of the action on Candlekeep go on in the forums? The parts of the site I poked around all looked pretty dusty.
Here's a FR ignoramus question: does most of the action on Candlekeep go on in the forums? The parts of the site I poked around all looked pretty dusty.
Alaundo, the man that runs the site, has been really, really busy lately. I know that most of the articles I wrote tended to get posted to the forums so that I could collect some thoughts and figure out where to fine tune things, and then I'd send the PDF that I hashed out to Alaundo.
Alaundo would do site updates every month or so, posting the collected articles to the various sections and posting the links to the various article sections with the monthly updates.
On top of that, we'd put out the Candlekeep Compendium, a collections of FR articles from a group of the scribes, on a quarterly basis.
One of the problems we're having right now with the Compendium is that WOTC has mentioned having a fan site policy "soon" (for the last year or so), and we (as in, those members of the Compendium I've talked to) don't really want to put out something that the Fan Site Policy might not allow us to put out.
Long story short, most of the "action" is indeed in the forums, especially right now.
Thanks, KEJR. I really hope that Wotc doesn't issue anything that will interfere with robust thriving over at Candlekeep.
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Candlekeep has been my refuge since getting banned on the WotC Forums. I was sorta pro-4e FR at that time. Lets make it bearable for the new players. Sure enough I start sending them over to candlekeep and they fell in love with the older realms. Go figure. Good to see Ashe posting here in Paizoland.
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...don't really want to put out something that the Fan Site Policy might not allow us to put out.
Thanks, KEJR, I hadn't realized you were so active over there. Commendable.
If someone speaks with Alaundo, please suggest he come out of hiatus, or get someone else to get the old timeline jump started again...
*Charges Maskyr's Paddles of Defibrillation*
Ah, this is what I was meant to do! I knew there was a higher purpose...
shouts....
Please ask Alaundo, please remind him... its been a year! Someone is just dicking around with fans. Put stuff out. Continue to put stuff out for the Forgotten Realms we know and love. Tell him his Candlekeep Compendium was wonderful. Tell him that he shouldn't be wotci's chump.
Tell him...
You got ta move it, move it!
Its been a year, dear-in-the-headlights-time-is-over...
Hells, let's all email him & show our love for the scribes!
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The thing is Big Al doesnt want WotC to send the dreaded "Cease and Desist" order. Plus alot of the Novel Writers and the Freelancers post over there.
I have noticed a marked decrease in posting from the WotC staffers like Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell. Alot of discussions are taking place about the 4E Novels. Some are really good. The 4E Realms are now a novel setting to me, I will play 4E in Eberron, and 3.5(or3P) in The Real Realms or Golarion.
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It's something the scribes at the Keep are *very* cautious about. With all the action that Wizards has taken on sites that have been around for years, no one wants to anger the pit bull without knowing how long his leash actually is...
Thank you for sharing this information with us, Ashe Ravenheart.
Well, by no means do I speak for Alaundo, but as I said above, he's been very busy with work lately. The site updates are lagging a bit because of this, but most of us on the Compendium staff decided it wasn't a good idea to even start articles until we knew what the fan site policy was.
So while I'm sure Alaundo will appreciate people thanking him for the effort he's put into running the site over the years, its not likely any urging is going to shift his priorities from his job to a fan project, no matter how lovingly administered.
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Candlekeep has been my refuge since getting banned on the WotC Forums. I was sorta pro-4e FR at that time. Lets make it bearable for the new players. Sure enough I start sending them over to candlekeep and they fell in love with the older realms. Go figure. Good to see Ashe posting here in Paizoland.
Whoa! Knew there was something different while I was lurking at WotC.
You still the same ol' Cyric-loving bastard we all loved? ;)
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The thing is Big Al doesnt want WotC to send the dreaded "Cease and Desist" order. Plus alot of the Novel Writers and the Freelancers post over there.
I have noticed a marked decrease in posting from the WotC staffers like Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell. Alot of discussions are taking place about the 4E Novels. Some are really good. The 4E Realms are now a novel setting to me, I will play 4E in Eberron, and 3.5(or3P) in The Real Realms or Golarion.
Of course, regarding BC, there's some hard feelings on the part of Realms grognards and his being in charge of the team that 'redeveloped' the Realms, so it's pretty easy to understand why he doesn't poke his nose over there. Rich had stated that he's spending most of his time on the WotC boards to answer questions there.
Of course, we have Steven Schend, Brian Cortijo, Brian R. James, Elaine Cunningham, Rosemary Jones, Erik Scott de Bie, Paul S. Kemp, Richard Lee Byers, George Krashos, Eric Boyd, James Davis, hmmm...
OH YEAH and answering any questions we might come up with...
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And now... I'm still so pissed I could just recite Vogon poetry all night....
Gleep wurp and a frumpled bum,
Din athly greep, whenna com stockulford,
Deeth not impur-tanel, greep,
Miggle, kan, dik, fant, vego vego norp.
Every time I see Gleep wurp I think of the pre-gen PC from Against the Giants (the original ones) Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter.
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Though as stated, my remarks were not intended to provoke a response from the pro-4Ed & 4ed FR crowds; an occasional 'jab' is sometimes useful in jumpstarting a debate if done "appropriately". Granted, it clearly is an 'emotional issue' for some posters. It need not be however. It's a Fictional RPG we're talking about here. We're not debating the merits of human rights legislation in Congress (or in your case Parliment). I've had posters be less than cordial with me. I choose not to take offense whether or not it is merited. Hardly worth being angry over when you really get down to it. At the end of the day, politicians go home and have drinks with the opposition they've argued with all day long in government. So in a nutshell, it ain't personal.
Furthermore, the Hard-core 4ed defenders on this website troll these boards so thoroughly, and craft such carefully polished responses, that they must literally spend hours each day doing so. That suggests that they are "less-than-objective" in their viewpoints, and begs the question, exactly why do these folks care so much whether others like or speak well of 4ed (FR or otherwise) or not.
Good start, poor follow-through. Firstly, I don't get the impression anyone here is particularly objective, including you. Secondly, I like 4e but I'm not spending hours crafting responses to people who don't - I respect their views but I won't necessarily hide it when we disagree - and I suspect no one else is much. Thirdly, the "trolling" (if you can call it that) cuts both ways on the 3.5 and the 4e boards, again because people are not especially objective. However, it does mean that some people get quite a lot of practice in discussing 4e with people who don't like it, which might be a source of the seeming "polish". And fourthly, although this is on the 3.5 thread, it is talking about 4e FR, so the fact that people who like 4e have cropped up here is hardly surprising. I personally don't agree with the "edition apartheid" idea where you can only discuss (or even post support) for a particular edition in a dedicated secion of the board, even though I have been asked to refrain from posting about 4e in a non-4e specific thread by another (anti-4e) poster here. As far as I was aware, these boards are for everyone, in all areas and topics, provided civility is maintained.
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Good start, poor follow-through. Firstly, I don't get the impression anyone here is particularly objective, including you. Secondly, I like 4e but I'm not spending hours crafting responses to people who don't - I respect their views but I won't necessarily hide it when we disagree - and I suspect no one else is much. Thirdly, the "trolling" (if you can call it that) cuts both ways on the 3.5 and the 4e boards, again because people are not especially objective. However, it does mean that some people get quite a lot of practice in discussing 4e with people who don't like it, which might be a source of the seeming "polish". And fourthly, although this is on the 3.5 thread, it is talking about 4e FR, so the fact that people who like 4e have cropped up here is hardly surprising. I personally don't agree with the "edition apartheid" idea where...
First off, yes these boards are for everyone. Freedom of expression is a guaranteed right of this country and these boards.
Secondly, I'm not one to argue semantics in a public forum since it's impossible to win arguments with people unwilling to change their opinion (this goes to both sides of this discussion).
Now that I got that out of the way, I'd like to ask you a question. I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if you posted this already or not. But why exactly are you posting here? You've admitted that you like 4th Edition, and I take it that you don't mind what the designers did with the Forgotten Realms. Since this thread is pretty much an open discussion of fans of the Realms that don't like what the designers did, why come over and post stuff you know will do nothing more than raise the ire of posters.
I appreciate open discussions. Heck, I think 4th Edition is a very good rules set for playing fantasy RPGs, especially if you're a beginner. However, I don't feel that it has kept the 'feel' of Dungeons & Dragons, so I don't use it. While I appreciate the designers having their reasons for changing the Realms setting, I personally don't like the new Realms, so I don't use it.
I guess it all comes back to what I said earlier, why are you (Aubrey) here?
Now that I got that out of the way, I'd like to ask you a question. I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if you posted this already or not. But why exactly are you posting here? You've admitted that you like 4th Edition, and I take it that you don't mind what the designers did with the Forgotten Realms. Since this thread is pretty much an open discussion of fans of the Realms that don't like what the designers did, why come over and post stuff you know will do nothing more than raise the ire of posters..../...
I guess it all comes back to what I said earlier, why are you (Aubrey) here?
I cannot talk for Aubrey, but i think he is willing to participate in a mature debate about the changes in the Forgotten Realms.
The fact that he is not shocked by them is bringing a different voice to this debate.The fact that he is playing D&D 4th edition is in my opinion irrelevant.
This thread is about the world of Toril, not about rules or editions.
Therefore we should appreciate the efforts of Aubrey, or any other poster, who is exposing his opinion on the new realms, in a civil and respectful way.
And follow that example.
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Participating in a mature debate is all well and good. However, this thread isn't really about debating the changes of the Realms, but as the original post put it:
...whether others would agree with just how nasty and diabolical this event actually is? So would you agree? If so, should this act go quietly unnoticed?
So, is this thread about a debate regarding the new Realms, or a place for those that don't like the Realms to come and commiserate?
I'm all for mature and healthy debate, but I'm not going to go to the local Pro-Life rally to discuss Pro-Choice options...
Participating in a mature debate is all well and good. However, this thread isn't really about debating the changes of the Realms, but as the original post put it:
...whether others would agree with just how nasty and diabolical this event actually is? So would you agree? If so, should this act go quietly unnoticed?So, is this thread about a debate regarding the new Realms, or a place for those that don't like the Realms to come and commiserate?
I'm all for mature and healthy debate, but I'm not going to go to the local Pro-Life rally to discuss Pro-Choice options...
Just because the person who started the thread has an opinion doesn't mean that's the only opinion that can be expressed. He asked others to chime in, and others are chiming in.
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Every time I see Gleep wurp I think of the pre-gen PC from Against the Giants (the original ones) Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter.And now... I'm still so pissed I could just recite Vogon poetry all night....
Gleep wurp and a frumpled bum,
Din athly greep, whenna com stockulford,
Deeth not impur-tanel, greep,
Miggle, kan, dik, fant, vego vego norp.
Dude - you speak Vogon!