So far, I've only met one pro-4e gamer in the flesh.
But don't worry... no one will be seeing or hearing from HIM again <evil grin>
Anyhow, to each his own. Personanlly, I prefer products that aren't made by a toy company... but hey, I'm a grownup, what do I know? ;)
I don't like 4ed. ...4ed hurts the industry because
1) people have to spend more money, and some of us CAN'T afford it, even if we wanted too. And we're talking a minimum of $100 here, just to get going.
2)3.5 works, at it's core. Wizards is re-inventing the wheel. There was no need for a new edition, just a revision, which is what Pathfinder is.
3)4.0 means I have to teach my gaming group a whole new mess of rules and concepts, and I will lose at least 1 players' interest if I do that. So I won't.
WotC must believe they are going to succeed in unifiying the industry by both bringing in new gamers from the younger crowd and giving old gamers a better system. That is why they spent so much money creating 4.0. The GURPS and 3.5 crowd will become this minority splitter group that is hurting the industry by keeping any old system alive. Therefore, 3.5 is hurting the industry.
I don't buy it. I think you may be right. I also do not wish to spend money for a system that is an improvement, but could have been reached by improving 3.5 to 3.something. But ultimately we will not know until the Edition War is over.
Cheese and Crackers this post really took off!
Ok, now WOTC's leprachaun contacted me earlier today and said the real reason for 4E is none of that corporate mumbo jumbo, it's because one of their lead designers cast his net into the sea for ideas for the day. He only casts his net three times, though, praying that the sea will provide him with what he needs. His net became stuck each time and each time he was forced to swim down to pull it up. Well the third he pulled out lamp that released a large and terrible djinn. The djinn threatened the designer something fierce, but the executive begged for his life. The djinn was dimwitted, though, and the designer managed trick the djinn back into the lamp. Long story short, the designer decided never to go fishing again... THE END.
*sigh* That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
JP
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So far, I've only met one pro-4e gamer in the flesh.
But don't worry... no one will be seeing or hearing from HIM again <evil grin>
Anyhow, to each his own. Personanlly, I prefer products that aren't made by a toy company... but hey, I'm a grownup, what do I know? ;)
Were you the guy in Borders scowling at me for picking up the 4e Monster Manual? I was just thumbing through it. Sheesh!!!
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I said in the other thread the same user started about the same topic:
This is the internet. If it exists, there are people whining about it.
Here, here! I must have missed the other thread, but I agree completely. Based on what someone said earlier in the thread about how this seems to be some kind of sly attempt to stir up hornets, I'm just going to "tsk tsk" and move on.
Were you the guy in Borders scowling at me for picking up the 4e Monster Manual? I was just thumbing through it. Sheesh!!!So far, I've only met one pro-4e gamer in the flesh.
But don't worry... no one will be seeing or hearing from HIM again <evil grin>
Anyhow, to each his own. Personanlly, I prefer products that aren't made by a toy company... but hey, I'm a grownup, what do I know? ;)
That is SO bizarre you just said that.
I WAS giving dirty looks to someone AT BORDERS for reading the 4e preview book a couple months back... but thats only because it was the last copy and I wanted to read it (without buying it, like he was doing).
I intend to read the 4e FRCG the same way - no point in purchasing a product you have no intention of running - its more of a 'morbid curiousity' thing at this point.
The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.
There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
Oh, be careful dude. You're stepping on Courtfool's manicured nails there. Don't want him to got all poodle fu on yo ass!
Oh, be careful dude. You're stepping on Courtfool's manicured nails there. Don't want him to got all poodle fu on yo ass!The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
My army of poodles has been training for this day. For victory and happiness my beautiful hordes!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I have a unique point of view that most of you can't yet appreciate.
If by "unique" you mean "completely out of touch with reality", then yes, you most certainly do have a unique point of view. I am thankful that I cannot fully appreciate it
Because I love gaming, and in the early years, everyone was releasing their own game.
You're right! That is unique. Why, just the other day there was a thread where we all talked about how much we hate gaming and think it's a stupid hobby. How interesting that you like it. Tell us more!
And all your friends you game with agree with your opinions? Stranger and stranger. Why, just the other day, my friends all spontaneously told me that they didn't want to play D&D 3.5, despite it being the most successful tabletop rpg to date (and not, as you may note, a universal system like Gurps and Heroes, which apparently revolutionized gaming), because they all wanted to play different universal systems! Luckily, those systems are so popular and widely played that we had no problem finding new players to replace the ones we lost!
I look forward to future factually incorrect and bizzare observations! Please continue helping me understand your oh-so-unique-viewpoint. Like most regular posters on these boards, I've only been playing rpgs for a few months and only D&D. I can't imagine what it must be like to have played multiple different systems for decades! Wow!
I have heard that the Pathfinder and "Wrong Step" were both in the 4E playtest before we announced the Pathfinder RPG in March.So if it's meant as a dig at us, it would have to be a dig on the Pathfinder Adventure Path... and I really doubt anyone at Wizards thinks that Pathfinder AP was a "wrong step" for us. (In fact, we know a bunch of Wizards employees play in Pathfinder games.)
You know, there is this option/feature in Adobe InDesign CS2 which can add a date stamp every time a page within proof is updated.
Here, here! I must have missed the other thread, but I agree completely. Based on what someone said earlier in the thread about how this seems to be some kind of sly attempt to stir up hornets, I'm just going to "tsk tsk" and move on.I said in the other thread the same user started about the same topic:
This is the internet. If it exists, there are people whining about it.
Yeah, there's always some nutter out there who complains about the silliest things... like how it's actually "hear hear" not "here here"* - totally nutty I say!
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Can anyone who was involved in the playtest prior to the Pathfinder announcement confirm that this ability was or wasn't there? I'm not usually big on conspiracy theories, but if this was added or changed after the Paizo announcement, that is sort of lame.
No one who was involved in the playtest can discuss that. WotC has made it clear that playtesters are not allowed to talk about their experiences, nor may they discuss the contents of any playtest material they received.
You will have to ask someone from WotC who worked on 4E about that.|
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I have a unique point of view that most of you can't yet appreciate.If by "unique" you mean "completely out of touch with reality", then yes, you most certainly do have a unique point of view. I am thankful that I cannot fully appreciate it
Because I love gaming, and in the early years, everyone was releasing their own game.You're right! That is unique. Why, just the other day there was a thread where we all talked about how much we hate gaming and think it's a stupid hobby. How interesting that you like it. Tell us more!
And all your friends you game with agree with your opinions? Stranger and stranger. Why, just the other day, my friends all spontaneously told me that they didn't want to play D&D 3.5, despite it being the most successful tabletop rpg to date (and not, as you may note, a universal system like Gurps and Heroes, which apparently revolutionized gaming), because they all wanted to play different universal systems! Luckily, those systems are so popular and widely played that we had no problem finding new players to replace the ones we lost!
I look forward to future factually incorrect and bizzare observations! Please continue helping me understand your oh-so-unique-viewpoint. Like most regular posters on these boards, I've only been playing rpgs for a few months and only D&D. I can't imagine what it must be like to have played multiple different systems for decades! Wow!
Just because you hold a certain point of view doesn't mean you need to attack others opinions. I don't know if people out here actually think that is funny, but I teach my children not to behave like that because I want them to get by in life, and make true, lasting friendships. I don't know what grade you are in, son, but I graduated from high school a long time ago.
The world moves forward when people work together and respect each other's points of view. The world moves backwards when people are petty...
I'm pretty sure he was using sarcasm to say that your opinion is not as "unique" as you claimed and that, in fact, you were talking down to us by claiming that we "cannot fully appreciate it." A lot of us love gaming and have played many systems over decades.
Oh geez, first thing tomorrow morning I'm putting this thread in time out.
Oh, I realize there may have been sarcasm. I also realize that I may have come across as "talking down" to people. I just want to have a frank discussion and, realistically, almost none of you have played for as long as I have, or owned/purchased as many systems as I have. I am stating a fact. most of you don't have the experience I have. That in no way diminishes your qualities as gamers. I love the excitement of this board. I just want people to get beyond pettyness and bickering. I want to talk about what I have loved for so many years.
I don't want to offend anyone, and I don't think I am better than anyone else.
I'm here to talk about gaming. Use me for my experience and breadth of knowledge.
The issue is you don't know us. You don't know how much experience any of us has or how many systems we've owned/played. So yes, you are talking down to us and saying you're better than us.
I'd wager that many more of us have the same experience you do and the same 'breadth of knowledge' than you think there are. Personally, with that fact, I'd rather use the knowledge and experience of people who are not being insulting and uppity, than one who is.
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I just want to have a frank discussion and, realistically, almost none of you have played for as long as I have, or owned/purchased as many systems as I have. I am stating a fact. most of you don't have the experience I have.
I'm curious as to why you think that this matters in the least.
If you want to have an 'adult conversation' with us I'd suggest you get off of the pedestal that you've put yourself on.
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So far the only hostility towards Paizo I've seen was actually aimed at Paizo's customers. There was this dude who kept going on and on about how Paizo was going to fail because they were appealing to "non-customers." He was claiming that everything that could possibly be released under 3.5 had been released (???), and so Paizo couldn't possibly sell us more stuff. He was really insistent that I was lying when I said that I had no interest in buying into a game that invalidated my already huge OGL library (3k+ in books at least), but I was still interested in expanding that library.
In a lot of places, news of Pathfinder has quieted down a lot of conflict. Knowing that 3.5 is still alive has pacified a lot of people who were loudly hating on WOTC and 4E.
Oh, I realize there may have been sarcasm. I also realize that I may have come across as "talking down" to people. I just want to have a frank discussion and, realistically, almost none of you have played for as long as I have, or owned/purchased as many systems as I have. I am stating a fact. most of you don't have the experience I have. That in no way diminishes your qualities as gamers. I love the excitement of this board. I just want people to get beyond pettyness and bickering. I want to talk about what I have loved for so many years.
I don't want to offend anyone, and I don't think I am better than anyone else.
I'm here to talk about gaming. Use me for my experience and breadth of knowledge.
I'm sad that your first posts here on the Paizo boards should have inadvertently (at least I hope that it was inadvertently) stepped on the toes of at least one of the board regulars. Sebastian is a lawyer of some legal knowledge and debating skill (or at least so he always seems ready to assure us :D), although he seems to tend to dig out sarcasm as a first response on threads which are about topics which he's seen debated to death half a dozen times already. (Some slight exaggeration, there, but possibly not by much.)
If you want to talk about gaming, I would recommend the Alpha forums, where the rules for the Pathfinder RPG (and especially playtest feedback, which Jason Bulmahn has expressed a particular interest in) are being debated; I imagine that Beta (once it comes out) will get a forum of its own, too.There are threads where people have reminisced about gaming experiences, and some of the posters have indicated that they still own copies of the 'wooden' D&D boxed set, which I take to be something from the very earliest days of the game, so I suspect that you will find some posters who have been playing as long as you; some of the posters also seem to have wandered around RPG systems looking for something which 'suited' them at times when D&D was going through a hiatus which did not suit their particular play-styles, so they will have at least some breadth of experience.
If you state what you perceive as facts, without making allowances for other people having different opinions, you may rub people up the wrong way, as very few people like what they perceive to be being told that they're stupid, that their thoughts are less valid, or that they're under-informed. Please take 10 (or 20, if you have the time) on your Diplomacy checks, at least whilst you feel things out.
Oh, and if you use the word 'smurf' in a post, (even quoting another poster) your avatar turns into a random smurf. Or you are awarded a random smurf avatar for the duration of that post.
Welcome to the Paizo messageboards. They may at times seem somewhat chaotic in nature, but nonetheless please post carefully. :)
Also, Lilith provides cookies.
Also, Lilith provides cookies.
^_^
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The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
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Oh, and if you use the word 'smurf' in a post, (even quoting another poster) your avatar turns into a random smurf. Or you are awarded a random smurf avatar for the duration of that post.
Wait, do people without avatars get smurfs if they say smurf?! Smurfity smurf, that is smurfing smurftacular!
And I can smurf that because I have been smurfing the smurfs longer than smurf, and have more smurf collectables than any smurf in smurf history. If you disagree with my smurfs, you clearly do not know smurf from smurf.
EDIT: Ironic appointment of avatar...
Seriously? They would change my avatar to a smurf if I merely invoke the name?
D'oh!
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The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!
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My army of poodles has been training for this day. For victory and happiness my beautiful hordes!Oh, be careful dude. You're stepping on Courtfool's manicured nails there. Don't want him to got all poodle fu on yo ass!The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
Got to be one of the strangest videos i've ever seen. I couldnt look away. LOL
Thoth-Amon
To refrain or not to refrain....
...nope, can't do it.
Games I've owned, played, and/or experimented with (and by "experimenting" I don't mean in the drug use sense):
D&D Red Box (and later developements)
AD&D
AD&D Second Edition (which some might note was actually the 3rd edition)
D&D 3.5 (totally skipped 3.0 but I have most of the books that didn't get "point fived")
Runequest 2nd edition
Runequest 3rd edition
Middle Earth Roleplaying Game (which helped me realize I wanted nothing to do with Rolemaster)
Traveller
Talislanta
Warhammer Fantasty Roleplay (1st edition)
this one game I can't remember the name of
Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Wraith/etc (1st edition)
Shadowrun (1st edition)
Gurps (and boy oh boy am I not a great fan of this one)
Cyberpunk (not sure which edition or even if the ref was really into following the rules)
Gamma World (1st edition)
Star Frontiers (or something like that - the TSR space opera)
Call of Cthulhu (1st edition)
another game I can't remember the name of (the one made by the guys who did Bushido that was supposed to be post-apocalyptic and totally sucked)
My point: you aren't the only grognard in these parts, Pops!
What concerns me most is the distribution of Pathfinder products to the hobby stores. I don't know the situation in US but in countries where the market is relatively small, the hobby stores are depending on WotC products. In a small market they see the 4e as the grand new attraction. They possible don't want to distract their customers with 2 lines of products.
Personally I support the OGL and the PRPG all the way. Many years ago I identify the opportunity that we could anchor the system of D&D-type worlds to 3.5 because of the OGL. I didn't expect WotC to make the move towards a 4e because of the obvious opportunity another OGL company could take the lead on supporting the OGL and WotC will have to fight in two fronts: promote the 4e to new customers, and convince its 3.5e customers. I was wrong. They are trying to move to 4e, ignoring the real needs of their previous customers. Lets see what will be their success. Fortunately PAIZO got the lead. I hope for the best.
As a customer breathing the free air of OGL I don't want to be in WotC's pocket (or in any other company's pocket) again (I remember the years when TSR was hunting web sites because they were using the term THAC0 etc).
Of course WotC people are not blind. The risk they take is not so big. They are based not only on the brand name D&D and their distribution channels but also on the brand names of their worlds (FR, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Dark Sun etc).
Dimitris
Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
Well, I'm talking about the U.S. Mint's Flip system. I haven't come across a genre or mechanics system that can't properly be resolved in Flip.
Currently, I'm running a campaign that's part pre-Black Friday stock investment simulation, part Kurosawa-style Shakespeare-based samurai drama. Our last campaign was a bit of a cross between "Project: Runway" and Street Fighter II. Turbo Championship Edition, even. (Had to break out the special c50's for that ruleset.)
I don't like heretics. That being said, I don't dislike anyone who choses to be a heretic. I have a unique point of view that most of you can't yet appreciate.
I have been pontificating for nearly 30 years, and in that time, I have spent well in excess of $20,000,000,000 of tithes on excessive monuments to my own greatness.
Why?
Because I love myself, and in the early years, everyone was releasing their own scriptures. It was a brave new world in 50 AD, and no one, not even almighty Junior and the Spook, knew what they were doing. Perhaps only Paul had some idea where things had to go.
He released his letters, which was a New Testament
Along the same track were the gnostic boys, who released Demiurge! But I don't think they realized they had made a heretical religion until a few years later. Then they jumped on it too.
The point is, having one church that could dominate many, if not all, churches was a boon to everyone. Priests could sell tons of sacriments, but poor people could still worship because they could afford 10% titihing, which was all you needed. But there was a hidden benefit. People who didn't have a huge interest in worship, but still wanted to worship, could learn ONE (1) True Faith, and still feel involved. I have known scores of people who quit religion because they could not keep up. Bad!
So why the History Lesson? I'll tell you.
Heresy hurts the Fast Faith industry because
1) people have to spend more money, and some of them CAN'T afford it, even if we want them to. And we're talking a minimum of 20% tithing here, just to get going.
2) the One True Faith works, at it's core. The heretics is re-inventing the wheel. There was no need for a new religion, just a revision, which is what Church and Munch, Meatopocalypse™ is.
3)Heresy means I have to teach my acolytes a whole new mess of devotions and concepts, and I will lose at least 1 worshipper's interest if I do that. So I won't.
Heresy is where the heretics and I part ways, and my entire congregation agrees with me.
I hope this heresy fails, not because I hate heresy itself, but because I LOVE God, and I feel this heresy hurts him personally.
Also, on a personal note, this heresy feels like the worst parts of Zoroastrianism and snake worship. We refer to it as "A burnable offesnse against God." Everything is oversimplified, and the pontiff doesn't have nearly the flexibility to control the masses like he wants. Bad!
Without Malice, I Await Your Responses!
DEATH TO THE HERETICS!
And don't flame me, because I'm protected by The Big Guy.
Sarge, that you? What's all this talk about heresy?
I thought we're fighting Zs.
Sarge, that you? What's all this talk about heresy?
I thought we're fighting Zs.
All in due time my son, all in due time
[snip]
and/or experimented with (and by "experimenting" I don't mean in the drug use sense)
You mean you didn't have the red box bong?
Wait, do people without avatars get smurfs if they say smurf?! Smurfity smurf, that is smurfing smurftacular!
And I can smurf that because I have been smurfing the smurfs longer than smurf, and have more smurf collectables than any smurf in smurf history. If you disagree with my smurfs, you clearly do not know smurf from smurf.
EDIT: Ironic appointment of avatar...
Is that the smurf version of Dead Mike?
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I don't like heretics. That being said, I don't dislike anyone who choses to be a heretic. I have a unique point of view that most of you can't yet appreciate.
I have been pontificating for nearly 30 years, and in that time, I have spent well in excess of $20,000,000,000 of tithes on excessive monuments to my own greatness.
Why?
Because I love myself, and in the early years, everyone was releasing their own scriptures. It was a brave new world in 50 AD, and no one, not even almighty Junior and the Spook, knew what they were doing. Perhaps only Paul had some idea where things had to go.
He released his letters, which was a New Testament
Along the same track were the gnostic boys, who released Demiurge! But I don't think they realized they had made a heretical religion until a few years later. Then they jumped on it too.
The point is, having one church that could dominate many, if not all, churches was a boon to everyone. Priests could sell tons of sacriments, but poor people could still worship because they could afford 10% titihing, which was all you needed. But there was a hidden benefit. People who didn't have a huge interest in worship, but still wanted to worship, could learn ONE (1) True Faith, and still feel involved. I have known scores of people who quit religion because they could not keep up. Bad!
So why the History Lesson? I'll tell you.
Heresy hurts the Fast Faith industry because
1) people have to spend more money, and some of them CAN'T afford it, even if we want them to. And we're talking a minimum of 20% tithing here, just to get going.
2) the One True Faith works, at it's core. The heretics is re-inventing the wheel. There was no need for a new religion, just a revision, which is what Church and Munch, Meatopocalypse™ is.
3)Heresy means I have to teach my acolytes a whole new mess of devotions and concepts, and I will lose at least 1 worshipper's interest if I do that. So I won't.Heresy is where the heretics and I part ways, and my entire congregation agrees with me.
I...
Absolute Genius. I want to join your one true faith.
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The 4e folks who are getting nervous about Pathfinders' persistence and forward momentum are on to something and crying in their beer for a reason - 4e is in trouble out of the gate and Pathfinder is moving up fast. Wotc is either unaware of this, unwilling to acknowledge it or unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Probably a combination.That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I was at the 4e anouncement at Gen Con last year. During the film there was alot of "WTF?" going on and at the end there was alot of boing. Not some, but alot. Bill S. and company beat a hasty retreat at the end.
There was alot of grumbling after that. RPGA members running games just didn't show up because they felt like they were ambushed.
WOTC stumbled out of the starting gate when they revoked the licences, and failed to get thier stride at the launch. Only time will tell if they can get thier pace back.