For the years that I've DMed 3.5, not once has any of my players ever really used summoning and calling spells. They just didn't. It wasn't really something we put emphasis on.
Recently, one of my players finally made a wizard dedicated to this stuff and soon a very interesting question arose that I wasn't prepared to answer:
Is there a limit to the number of summoned creatures a single player can summon into play? In other words, can a wizard use summon monster spells round after round bringing in more and more monsters each turn? If so, does anyone find that a little ridiculous? I understand that summoned monsters are not very powerful, but that seems like it could very quickly become and army of nonsense. Moreso, I fear for game slow-down with so many creatures being forced onto the field, plus some of those "weak" but huge monsters really give the PC's a huge advantage, more than I thought a spell like that might warrant.
To be fair, we're only dealing with Summon Monster 3 or less right now at level 5, but I fear for the higher levels. Is my fear unfounded and these spells will prove to not be so bothersome later on?
If there is a direct answer to my question please cite where I can find it so I can show it to my players on an official level.
Thanks for any help.
There are no game system enforced limits on how many critters a player can have on the battlemat. At 5th level spell durations limit the number of creatures active. 5 rounds means a max of 5 summons spells active at a time (unless extended). Obviously as you get higher level it becomes a bigger issue.
No, there's no upper limit on how many summoned creatures you can have at one time. Yes, it sometimes causes the game to drag a bit. I've noticed this especially with druids since they benefit a bit more from summoning hordes of low-level creatures (since low-level Nature's Ally creatures are better than low level summoned monsters).
No, there's no upper limit on how many summoned creatures you can have at one time. Yes, it sometimes causes the game to drag a bit. I've noticed this especially with druids since they benefit a bit more from summoning hordes of low-level creatures (since low-level Nature's Ally creatures are better than low level summoned monsters).
At low levels they can't have a 'horde' :P
I am playing a Druid dedicated to summoning creatures in RORL. He just turned 9th. I have not ever had more than 2 creatures summoned in one combat. The lower level summons just become too useless in combat to even bother with once you get more than one spell level behind. 3 wolves attacking a devil is pretty much useless and a waste of an action.
Now I will admit that my summons make our party much more dangerous than a standard group of 4 characters. I usually drop a summoned creature in the midst of our enenmies just to cause confusion. I was going to play the summoning wizard but the Druids summoned creatures are much more powerful.
Make sure your player has prepared character sheets as I have done for the creautes I normally summon. Having the already modified stats for the summoned creatues speeds up the combat quite a bit.
Your mage will have other spells he wants to cast so he can't have too many summons memorized.
No, there's no upper limit on how many summoned creatures you can have at one time. Yes, it sometimes causes the game to drag a bit. I've noticed this especially with druids since they benefit a bit more from summoning hordes of low-level creatures (since low-level Nature's Ally creatures are better than low level summoned monsters).At low levels they can't have a 'horde' :P
A 5th level druid could potentially summon 13 wolves with 3 spells (2 Summon Monster III + 1 Summon Monster II); I'd call that a small horde. ;-) Maybe you don't consider level 5 "low level", though.
Actually, I prefer the spell Conjure Ice Beast from Frostburn. If you used Conjure Ice Beast, you could whip up 10 ice wolves with three spells (no rolling 1d3 or 1d4+1 -- just a flat 2 or 4 per spell), each of which has 31 hp and a 1d6/round cold damage aura (on top of their normal attack).
Hello
was browsing the boards and this caught my eye as I am playing a conjuerer wizard in a D&D game right now and I would say He is rather powerful at level 10.
I did use some varients and went with the master specialist PrC from complete mage.
I have an unofficial pact with the DM to limit my summoned creatures to 1 at a time unless we are in a very difficult battle which seldom has occured.
yes the nature's ally spells are nice but I have found myself just as good.
I went with the rapid summoning varient as well as the focused specialist varient.
the master specialist class has given me some caster level boosts and I can add my caster level to each summoned creatures hp total.
also at level 10 master specialist I can quicken any conjuration spell 3/day that is a standard action to cast. and since I took rapid summoner varient all my summon monster spells are standard actions to cast. so for big battles I can smack two summons in 1 round.
also I nice boost is the old faithful augment summoning feat and the summon elemental reserve feat. I dont have a familiar but never liked them anyway.
anyway the best way to handle summoning is to work with The DM and possibly set a limit per encounter so as to not slow down the combat flow. also always have the stats for your summons on hand before hand.
our group had a druid in it at one time and he constantly slowed everything down when he cast nature's ally as we would never know the stats of his critters beforehand and was wasting time at the table searching the monster manual then trying to figure out any bonuses on the fly.
hope this helps. and BTW yay... my first post ever on these boards.
|
well, he's a druid summoning ablative meat shields...not to worry, this won't make the game bad.
much like the poster just above me, i played a Conjurer/Master Specialist with Aug Summoning (i had the Rapid Spell feat, not the variant)...at the end of the game, i was able to summon things that missed the enemy, took a few hits, and blocked up the battlefield.
I think i managed to actually kill like 1 or 2 things with my summons all game with him. They were much more effective at aiding the other party members, sucking up damaging attacks that would have hit the pc's and the like.
Until you get Summon Elemental Monolith (which is Duration:Concentration, so no other spells/actions beyond moves) or REALLY specialize in making them bad-arsed (Aug Summon, Aug Elemental, Imbued Summoning, Rapid Summoning, Etc...) they won't be able to do really significant damage to the baddies.
-t
As others have said, there is no upward limit on the number of summoned creatures a character can bring into play. But your fear of their power is unfounded.
1) Summon spells require a full round to cast, rather than a standard action. Note that this isn't a full-round action; the casting must continue between their current turn and the beginning of the next one. Then the summoning spell takes effect and the creature appears. This immediately makes the summoner Target Numero Uno for anyone who can close with him, or anyone with a ranged weapon. Further, so long as the caster is bringing in his friends, he's doing squat else, other than free actions like 5-foot steps (or some swift spells, depending on the source books available).
2)Summoned monsters aren't powerful at all; not until the higher level, anyway. Even then, they're only a fraction of the strength of any other member of the party. It takes several of the things to equal another PC's effectiveness, in which case the summoner's player is effectively trading off playing his character for playing the summoned creatures (since, remember, he isn't likely to do much else while summoning). As most battles last 3-5 rounds, by the time he's done calling in a number of allies, there isn't likely much left to do. The point I'm trying to make here is that there are opportunity costs involved, namely what else he could be doing with those actions rather than porting in relatively weak combatants.
3)The size of the creatures is one of the primary reasons many of them are included in the spell at all. Look at the Large monstrous centipede. The thing sucks. Massively.
But it takes up a big area on the map and can threaten an even larger area, making handy AoO on your behalf and possibly doing some Dex damage to a foe with its poison. This creature is definitely a tactical option for the caster. And if you want to compare it to other spells, look at enlarge person. That gives you a large-sized ally who is far more effective than the centipede, and the wizard has been able to cast that since 1st level. Or look at web, which is also a 2nd-level Conjuration spell. That thing is freaking rediculous. It blows away anything you can achieve with summon monster II in most cases.
So don't worry about summoning spells. Yes, they are powerful, but they come with some well-designed drawbacks and balancing factors. They're in the core rules, so the game designers likely (I'd give it a 99.9% chance) realized what they were doing when they wrote the rules the way they are. They're a fun caster archetype to play, but whether a druid or a mage, summoning is actually one of the weaker options available to them. In the case of the mage, the more direct battlefield control spells (which are usually Conjurations, just like summon spells) are often considered to be the most powerful option available to a wizard. See evard's black tentacles, the various fog spells, and the aforementioned web.
I just want to chime in with my two cents worth, since two of my last three characters have been conjurers of some type.
In my curent campaign (Core books only), I play a druid who is not optimized to be a summoner, but who finds the additional allies downright necessary, especially in large battles. Most recently, using Summon Nature's Ally II and III, he called up five dire rats to infect a crew of sailors with filth fever. Though the guards rapidly dispatched the rats (I was estatic when they survived one attack, given their 9 hp), they were effective in the long term.
Therein lies the key - summoned creatures greatly expand one's tactical options and allow one to control the battlefield and engage opponents, as well as shield one's allies from attacks... for a short time. If one's allies can make good use of that time, the tide of battle can be turned in one's favor. This current campaign has had some very challenging battles (VERY) and good tactics are a must.
Let's compare that to my other conjurer, a specialist wizard where any WOTC-published book was fair game to use, and my DM and I developed a thaumaturge PrC for wizards (the characters background was that he enjoyed summoning evil outsiders and forcing them to do good, and he was optimized to do just that). The conjuration school is loaded with fantastic spells, and choosing feats and options to amp up one's conjuration abilities made this character... frankly, over the top. In fact, in terms of raw power, the conjurer was equaled only by the sorceror with both the Saint and Half-fiend templates (oh, what a story-driven campaign...). In fact, that player and I usually held back when facing the challenges our DM presented us, if only so we wouldn't end the fight too quickly. It was crazy at high levels, but memorable.
However, as an experienced player of conjurors, it is absolutely imperative to have ready reference sheets with the creatures stats ready to go during combat. There are cards, as well as lists available for download and/or purchase, and I make sure to keep a notebook of them for my character(s). When multiple creatures are "in play", I stack my PC sheet over the sheets for each summoned critter and use the time between turns to figure out what's going on. I also make sure to have multiple, different-colored d20s, so I can roll all attacks for a single creature simultaneously, so as not to bog down play. Sometimes controlling four creatures, I am faster than other players with only a single PC. I haven't yet had more than four separate types of creatures at once, but given the tactical nature of this campaign, I suspect it is coming at higher levels.
One last note, just for druids: Terrain is key. There have been battles where my character almost single-handed defeats a challenge, and htere have been battles where my character ends up tossing produce flame from the back, followed by sling stones. #1 was in the deep forest, and #2 in the city. The point is, toss in summoning with the terrain advantage of a well-prepared druid and they can seem WAAAAAAY powerful. Fight the same battle in a dungeon or the middle of a city, and one may not even notice the druid's actions. That alone can "balance" their summoning.
|
Let's compare that to my other conjurer, a specialist wizard where any WOTC-published book was fair game to use, and my DM and I developed a thaumaturge PrC for wizards (the characters background was that he enjoyed summoning evil outsiders and forcing them to do good, and he was optimized to do just that). The conjuration school is loaded with fantastic spells, and choosing feats and options to amp up one's conjuration abilities made this character... frankly, over the top. In fact, in terms of raw power, the conjurer was equaled only by the sorceror with both the Saint and Half-fiend templates (oh, what a story-driven campaign...). In fact, that player and I usually held back when facing the challenges our DM presented us, if only so we wouldn't end the fight too quickly. It was crazy at high levels, but memorable.
However, as an experienced player of conjurors, it is absolutely imperative to have ready reference sheets with the creatures stats ready to go during combat. There are cards, as well as lists available for download...
Can we see the conjurer?
Can we see the conjurer?
Well, I'll see what I can do...
"Yob" Dalhed-Skorl was a gnomish conjurer specialist designed to control evil outsiders, particularly demons. The campaign ended at 18th level, at which point Yob was a Wizard 9 / Fatespinner 4/ Thaumaturgist 5. The two PrCs are both five level progressions, as I personally don't like dipping into classes for just a level or two. Thaumaturgist is almost identical to Thaumaturge, except designed for arcane summoners. The differences were that it used planar binding instead of planar ally. There was also one level of significant difference, but I don't have that file handy at the moment. It was on par with the bonus that clerics received for negotiating with their ally; I believe it was something like +1/class level to Cha checks. Fatespinner itself was a slight stretch, but allowed a "safety margin" for dealing with devils and making sure to resist or overcome their powers/defenses.
Looking at feats, YOb had Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell FOcus - COnj., Augmentg Summoning, Scribe Scroll, Craft WOndrous Item, Improved Initiative, Arcane Mastery (to take 10 on CL checks), Dimensional Reach, Demon Mastery (from FCII), Extract Demonic Essence (I forget where from, but likely FCI or II). SOme of these feats were granted by classes (like Scribe Scroll for Wiz. and AUgment Summoning from Thaumaturgist). Many of these feats were very useful dealing with the SR of demons, especially being able to take 10 on CL checks. COmbined with the Fatespinner abilities, forcing second saves or applying penalties to saves, Yob dealt with most demons quite handily, especially if there was only one or two encounters per day.
CHecking his ability scores, both Int and Dex were in the mid 20s due to extenisive use of magic items, and wisdom was raised ot 20 the same way. The big thing for his specialty was a ring of Arcane Might (from COmplete Arcane) adding yet anohter +1 to CL checks. Additonaly there were a few protective items and some miscellaneous useful magic, like belt of many pouches and boots of flying.
One of the big things was the Planar Cohort feature of Thaumaturgist, basically a "servant" so long as Yob did not cross the ethos/morality of the Cohort. Since we were a "good" party fighting evil, Yob was generally good, though his delight in forcing evil creatures to obey him was a little disturbing. The Cohort (at 18th level) was Ghaele Eladrin (I believe) named "Gail", chosen for the useful array of special abilities, including healing magic.
Finally, glancing at the spell book shows a strong selection of conjuration spells, including Sphere of Ultimate Destruction from the SPell Compendium as well as Imprisonment (which is my favorite underpopularized spell, and the method my party used to defeat teh tarrasque - no need to kill if you can keep away). Additionally I recall using Mind Blank daily and keeping Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray, Polymorph ANy oBject, Greater, Planar Binding adn Acid Fog handy. Additionally, the lower level Phantasmal Thief, Servant Horde, Spell VUlnerability, Baleful Transposition, and Unluck (all from SC) were very useful.
Hope that helps. Let me know what you think, or if you want more backstory. Again, I also kept a notebook of commonly summoned creatures, including modifcations due to feats and templates, at hand for use during combat. But once it came to Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, that was pretty much game over...