I really dont think Paizo needs or wants all that hate about 4E here either. It doesnt make anyone look good.
Just present your arguments in the most civil way possible i guess. I know folks get under our skin, and I think a few posters from other forums try to instigate this as well.
Dont feed the trolls and lets keep focusing on PF.
Like it or lump it 4e may very well be at least a partial return to Chainmail
Then it should be called Chainmail 4e, not D&D 4e. While D&D has its roots in tabletop wargames, it's not a tabletop wargame itself.
Try the WotC boards, and more specifically, the FR boards.
They are about 90% haters over there. In fact, the largest group of anti-WotC hangs out right on there own boards.
Considering what's happening to their world, they probably have the most right to hate on 4e. Helm killing Mystra indeed! ;-)
I have a forum that I haven't used for anything really in a while, it's set up and stable. Feel free to use it. I'll update moderation and everything too. You can hate 4e all you want. I may come screetch about it too.
http://community.nat20games.com
I just checked it out it looks like a really nice forum. What do ya say folks shall we create the The 4E Haters Club of America... or um wherever you come from??? Who knows maybe we'll make an impact. Maybe we'll even accomplish something constructive in the process.
Charles
This just reeks of fail.
I almost hate 4e and have much more fun seeing 4e avengers on WotC boards go crazy with foam coming from their mouths when you bash their beloved product then I would just posting remarks about 4e with none to get angry over it. :D
Fiery discussions on the Net are a lot of fun when you are at work with nothing to do atm.
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There have been new editions of other games but I have never seen one that went this far from what it was at its roots.
Agreed.
P.s. Razz, you should stay here, post here, enjoy it here. Gary asks you to be slightly less inflamatory and more consistent. I think your intentions are good, that is, I believe you wish to see the preservation of our game, v3.5. and the continuation of dungeons and dragons. What would stop you from creating pro-3.5 threads here at PAIZO that were geared toward everything you suggested?
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3.5 was very tabletop driven, check out all the rules on facing and even variant facing and hex board options. The real problem was that 3.5 rapidly became a victim of it's own success, much like how the Ptolemaic model of the solar system collapsed under the weight of epicycles that kept getting added to explain odd planetary motions. With 3.5 it was the overwhelming addition of complete this and splat that, getting to the point where you could fill a suitcase on the rulebooks alone.Like it or lump it 4e may very well be at least a partial return to ChainmailThen it should be called Chainmail 4e, not D&D 4e. While D&D has its roots in tabletop wargames, it's not a tabletop wargame itself.
Just a suitcase? I have a bookcase full of crap. Most of it I will never even use! With every book the power level creeped up, the complexity creeped up, by the 10,000,000th splat book it required a supercomputer to handle...
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Helm killed Mystra but it was Cyric that did in the Mystra formerly known as Midnight.Considering what's happening to their world, they probably have the most right to hate on 4e. Helm killing Mystra indeed! ;-)Try the WotC boards, and more specifically, the FR boards.
They are about 90% haters over there. In fact, the largest group of anti-WotC hangs out right on there own boards.
Who are these hacks you guys keep going on about? And then you keep misspelling it... Mystara you keep leaving out the A...
:)
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I have a forum that I haven't used for anything really in a while, it's set up and stable. Feel free to use it. I'll update moderation and everything too. You can hate 4e all you want. I may come screetch about it too.
http://community.nat20games.com
It looks nice, but a bit...bare.
Has anyone posted anything yet, or is it invisible to non-members?
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Hey, with 4th edition, you don't even have a complete set of core rules until the PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 are released. That's six books instead of 3!
Actually we're supposed to get a set of core books every year.. so the count is going to be much larger then 6. Hopefully, Bard, Barbarian, and Sorcerer make it into PHB2.
I hate 4e and 3.5…can I play too? For that matter, I hate 2e, 1e, basic, OSRIC and anything that even remotely resembles any of them. I am looking at you C&C.
Was that an honest question or were you just trying to point out my own hypocrisy?
Well that poodle has a Big Mouth anyway
There's a drow poodlemancer behind this, you mark my words. There's no atrocity those drow won't commit. They even chose a spelling that can go either way, so people would always have rows over it!
Hey, with 4th edition, you don't even have a complete set of core rules until the PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 are released. That's six books instead of 3!Actually we're supposed to get a set of core books every year.. so the count is going to be much larger then 6. Hopefully, Bard, Barbarian, and Sorcerer make it into PHB2.
Yeah, right. Expect 2 at most. Another will be in PHB3, and some in the - totally optional, mind you - DDI, or maybe in some splat books (which we'll only get very few of, of course).
3.5 was very tabletop driven
It's still optional.
, check out all the rules on facing and even variant facing and hex board options.
Yeah, and I have heard of optional rules of people taking off something whenever they roll a natural 1, so 3e is obviously a pervy game for exhibitionists.
With 3.5 it was the overwhelming addition of complete this and splat that, getting to the point where you could fill a suitcase on the rulebooks alone.
Not really proof that 3e is a tabletop game, and anyway more a problem with those who think they need all of those books.
Helm killed Mystra but it was Cyric that did in the Mystra formerly known as Midnight.
Who can keep track any more?
FR is just like a tenth-class soap opera now, with deities killing each other over because one thinks the other stole his broad or other silly stuff like that. I bet at least one deity will turn out to have fallen down the stairs while drunk and broken his neck. And, say, Loviatar and Sune will find out that they're twins separated at birth, and Loviatar will get over being abandoned by her parents which was the reason for her evil ways, and now she becomes a nice girl who wants to be hip and everything. And Malar accepts a job offer in another multiverse and will have to leave the cast, uh, I mean, pantheon.
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, check out all the rules on facing and even variant facing and hex board options.
Yeah, and I have heard of optional rules of people taking off something whenever they roll a natural 1, so 3e is obviously a pervy game for exhibitionists.
Wait a minute!!! Please tell me this is in the rules somewhere. Our group has three women in it... MUST FIND THAT RULE!
Oh wait... I just thought about the guys in the group... ewwwwwww *barf* never mind...
Wait a minute!!! Please tell me this is in the rules somewhere. Our group has three women in it... MUST FIND THAT RULE!Oh wait... I just thought about the guys in the group... ewwwwwww *barf* never mind...
It's not in the rules, but with enough coercion, I might produce a very official-looking PDF with rules that girls must take off one piece of clothing for every natural 1, and guys must take a shot of (whatever the guy handing over the big wad of dough is most fond of drinking while ogling women in pregressing states of undress) ;-P
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It's not in the rules, but with enough coercion, I might produce a very official-looking PDF with rules that girls must take off one piece of clothing for every natural 1, and guys must take a shot of (whatever the guy handing over the big wad of dough is most fond of drinking while ogling women in pregressing states of undress) ;-P
Lighter fluid.
3.5 was very tabletop driven, check out all the rules on facing and even variant facing and hex board options. The real problem was that 3.5 rapidly became a victim of it's own success, much like how the Ptolemaic model of the solar system collapsed under the weight of epicycles that kept getting added to explain odd planetary motions. With 3.5 it was the overwhelming addition of complete this and splat that, getting to the point where you could fill a suitcase on the rulebooks alone.Like it or lump it 4e may very well be at least a partial return to ChainmailThen it should be called Chainmail 4e, not D&D 4e. While D&D has its roots in tabletop wargames, it's not a tabletop wargame itself.
What facing rules? Even the flanking rules were written in such a way that which direction you were facing didn't matter. I do agree that 3.5 was set up in a mini-centric way, with most of the new combat rules written with the assumption that you're using minis, but I think 4e is the point where minis become totally mandatory. There's just no way to keep track of all these minute forced movements without a grid.
***Chuckle***
You certainly are a cheery fella.
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While complaining about 4e now might not have any overall change on WotC's decisions to make it or not, I am still surprised at how much anger people still need to vent about the entire fiasco since last August. I know, 'cause I'm one of them! So, I understand it.
And for saying something very mildly anti-4e on En World, I had two threads closed within a week. I don't know why I still bother there.
My two groups have moved to "after gaming rants". We're already in a good mood from a well-played session, so while we're packing up and gathering goods someone has to start something new they read about 4e play and we all pile on it with laughs and shouting folks can really hear. Try it, you'll like it!
-DM Jeff
What facing rules?
I think he's talking about Unearthed Arcana.
Fortunately, they're optional.
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Just something interesting to think about ....
http://www.gamegrene.com/node/20?fro...ts_per_page=70
Odd how the 3rd edition, which is now hailed as a worthy successor to 1st and 2nd, was originally loathed in exactly the same terms. How's this for a bit of deja vu? --
** spoiler omitted **
Very interesting. I do have to admit though, that the complaints stated were completely wrong on many levels. Especially with AC. he had a valid concern about Initiative, something I had forgotten about. And in retrospect do rather miss. Spell speed and weapon speed made sense and added excitement.
I do miss THAC0. A very simple system for anyone who passed math. They did add a LOT of variables to combat rolls with 3E, that have proven a problem and is something Paizo is trying to clean up.
While I have not PLAYED 4E yet, I have tried reading it (tried because I keep falling asleep). The character powers are the most boring. Page after page after page of the same effects with fluff changes. Just thinking about them makes me sleepy. Combat did not seem THAT different, and nothing major as far as I was concerned. I did not like the lack of spells, or spells becoming powers. My biggest complaint would be cookie cutter-ville makes for boring reading and makes me fall asleep. So playing the combat... better keep some No-Doze handy.
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Just something interesting to think about ....
http://www.gamegrene.com/node/20?fro...ts_per_page=70
Odd how the 3rd edition, which is now hailed as a worthy successor to 1st and 2nd, was originally loathed in exactly the same terms. How's this for a bit of deja vu? --
** spoiler omitted **
Oh I agree with you that it is a lot of hullabaloo about nothing in a lot of instances. But there is one thing that I think is an honest to goodness point, the sense of completeness. With 3.5 you could litterally use the classes given to cover almost any concept using just the core 3 rulebooks and multiclassing. But with 4e what does a kid joining the game who wants to make a medieval lance knight do? the lance isn't even in the book.
Who can keep track any more?
FR is just like a tenth-class soap opera now, with deities killing each other over because one thinks the other stole his broad or other silly stuff like that. I bet at least one deity will turn out to have fallen down the stairs while drunk and broken his neck. And, say, Loviatar and Sune will find out that they're twins separated at birth, and Loviatar will get over being abandoned by her parents which was the reason for her evil ways, and now she becomes a nice girl who wants to be hip and everything. And Malar accepts a job offer in another multiverse and will have to leave the cast, uh, I mean, pantheon.
Heh. It's like a twelve year old's plotline for the Realms, and I find myself wanting to apologize to all the 12-year olds out there who may be listening because even they couldn't make something this retarded if they spun around in circles 100 times and then tried to type.
While I have not PLAYED 4E yet, I have tried reading it (tried because I keep falling asleep). The character powers are the most boring. Page after page after page of the same effects with fluff changes. Just thinking about them makes me sleepy.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I don't know why but I have no trouble sucking up the spells section in the PHB but reading those powers makes my eyes water. So many different ways of saying the same thing.
Then again, I have trouble reading the spell compendium also, so many of the spells are so nearly identical or just another way of busting out the D6s. There is some genuinely decent stuff in there but tons of junk and repeat stuff.
I read your previous post about millions of non-core books and power creep and had to laugh. Personally I have core plus about 6 splats including MIC and Spell Compendium which I think are 2 of the better supplements. Even so the ratio of junk to decent stuff in my library is about 50 pages of junk for every page of usable material. Maybe worse than that.
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While I have not PLAYED 4E yet, I have tried reading it (tried because I keep falling asleep). The character powers are the most boring. Page after page after page of the same effects with fluff changes. Just thinking about them makes me sleepy.I'm glad I'm not the only one. I don't know why but I have no trouble sucking up the spells section in the PHB but reading those powers makes my eyes water. So many different ways of saying the same thing.
Then again, I have trouble reading the spell compendium also, so many of the spells are so nearly identical or just another way of busting out the D6s. There is some genuinely decent stuff in there but tons of junk and repeat stuff.
I read your previous post about millions of non-core books and power creep and had to laugh. Personally I have core plus about 6 splats including MIC and Spell Compendium which I think are 2 of the better supplements. Even so the ratio of junk to decent stuff in my library is about 50 pages of junk for every page of usable material. Maybe worse than that.
Ya see I'm an optimist... I am optimistic that in that $30 book there will be some nugget of gold I can mine that will make my game just so much more interesting. *sigh* Unfortunately very very rarely do I find anything useful. I do usually find 3PP books more useful.
I do have one thing I wanted to see in 4E (of course they didn't do it) and that was a simplification of spells. Ever play GURPS and use their spells? Before you can cast a fireball, you have to learn to create fire, then learn to control fire, then you get to learn fireball. But they don't call it fireball per se... they have spells called Create(Element) and you choose which element you want to use, the COntrol (Element) then Elemantal Blast... or some variation on that naming convention. An Ice Ball uses the same spell as a Fireball as an Electric Bolt etc. The spell progresion makes sense and is compact.
I have so long wanted to take D&D and make it 3d6 and use the fundamentals of the game but use the logic from GURPS for spells.
Oh well.
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Actually we're supposed to get a set of core books every year.. so the count is going to be much larger then 6. Hopefully, Bard, Barbarian, and Sorcerer make it into PHB2.Yeah, right. Expect 2 at most. Another will be in PHB3, and some in the - totally optional, mind you - DDI, or maybe in some splat books (which we'll only get very few of, of course).
I have a feeling the PHBx is going to be the splat books of 4e.
The Darkside does have cookies. Girl Scout cookies. Made with real Girl Scouts.Come to the Dakside, we have cookies.The darkside does not have cookies. No cookies. None.
Yummy!
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I have a feeling the PHBx is going to be the splat books of 4e.Actually we're supposed to get a set of core books every year.. so the count is going to be much larger then 6. Hopefully, Bard, Barbarian, and Sorcerer make it into PHB2.Yeah, right. Expect 2 at most. Another will be in PHB3, and some in the - totally optional, mind you - DDI, or maybe in some splat books (which we'll only get very few of, of course).
I think there will be more than just that. WOTC has said there will be a PHB, DMG and MM each year that will be core. But I do not think they can exist solely on releasing three books a year. I expect to see PHB2009, DMG2009, MM2009, and a handful of splat books. I do not expect them to do much for adventures. They have not really succeeded in that market so far. I do expect them to rehash the 3.x books to 4E though, which let's face it were rehashes of 1st and 2nd Ed books as well, just done better.
I expect that the meat and potatoes of their operation will be DDI and I expect them to eventually realy really really push D&D online as well.
I'm easily amused ;-)***Chuckle***You certainly are a cheery fella.
In that case, I have some thing for you: http://www.isitchristmas.com/
Just something interesting to think about ....
http://www.gamegrene.com/node/20?fro...ts_per_page=70
Odd how the 3rd edition, which is now hailed as a worthy successor to 1st and 2nd, was originally loathed in exactly the same terms. How's this for a bit of deja vu?
I can't speak for other people, but I know I didn't loathe 3e. I loved and thought that most, if not all, of the changes were for the better, especially replacing restrictions with options.
And I wasn't as active back then as I am now, and the net wasn't that well-developed, but I haven't seen any campaigns where wizards told us that 2e was crap and only 3e is good, or a general outcry about changes not only in the rules, but also in game history.
I have a feeling the PHBx is going to be the splat books of 4e.
They already announced "Martial Power" or something like that. Seems that at least, every power source will get a splat book. That's already 3 per year.
And of course a lot of stuff will apparently be released through the DDI, like the half-orc.
With 3.5 you could litterally use the classes given to cover almost any concept using just the core 3 rulebooks and multiclassing.
I strongly disagree.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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With 3.5 you could litterally use the classes given to cover almost any concept using just the core 3 rulebooks and multiclassing.I strongly disagree.
I agree with CourtFool's disagreement. What if you want to play a Harry Potter type wizard who can cast minor spells all day (but only with a wand)? 4e hits that archtype better than 3e did. Don't get me wrong, 3e does a good job of hitting a lot of concepts, but it really depends on how you flavor your examples. I can think of character concepts that are easier in 4e and I can think of character concepts that are easier in 3e, it's not as if 4e concepts are a strict subset of 3e concepts.
And, to the point I'm sure CourtFool is making, no edition of D&D can compete with a point based system like Heroes or Gurps in terms of covering a huge number of character building options.
What if you want to play a Harry Potter type wizard who can cast minor spells all day (but only with a wand)?
Could you do that with the warlock from Complete Arcane?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Could you do that with the warlock from Complete Arcane?
What if you want to play a Harry Potter type wizard who can cast minor spells all day (but only with a wand)?
That would come pretty close, but the assertion I was addressing was that you could build just about any concept with only the three core books. It's entirely possible you will be able to build a lance using knight once a suitable 4e splatbook is released.