Well, I bought the core books for 4E and the first adventure. I convinced my group to buy them. We sold a lot of our books too... And then we read 4e. Quite simply it does not feel like D&D, and it seems like rules are more important then ever.
Anyways, I will probably also buy the Pathfinder Handbook when it comes out, maybe that will be our new system. I am very dissapointed with Wizards, I think the last straw is them publishing Dungeon this month without an intro adventure (no doubt to boost sales of their published adventure..)
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......I think the last straw is them publishing Dungeon this month without an intro adventure (no doubt to boost sales of their published adventure..)
Wizards? Pulling shenanigans to boost sales?!?! Nah, couldn't be!
It's only what they've done for the last year leading up to this whole debacle.Paizo cares. There is a fundamentally different approach to their business. It's called a genuine love of the industry, rather than a 'what can I milk from the industry' outlook.
Welcome to Pathfinder. Lilith has cookies over here somewhere....
sorry ya got burned man, But indeed welcome to pathfinder
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Paizo cares. There is a fundamentally different approach to their business. It's called a genuine love of the industry, rather than a 'what can I milk from the industry' outlook.
That's not fair. Remember that WotC created the OGL which allowed the creation of True20, AU, and the PfRPG. And do you really think Paizo just went its own direction out of the goodness of its own heart? Remember that, ultimately, the PfRPG rules will be determined by Jason, Erik, and the rest of the company, not by some American-Idol-esque voting system.
A business's business is to make money whether reaching for a new market (D&D) or catering to an established clientèle (PfRPG).
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I think the last straw is them publishing Dungeon this month without an intro adventure (no doubt to boost sales of their published adventure..)
No - I think this was to boost attendance to worldwide D&D day so that brick and mortor stores could reap some benefits of it being the days after the release
I am very dissapointed with Wizards,
I'm sorry to hear that. Despite not liking 4E for about 9 months now, I had hoped that 4E was enjoyable to those that really wanted it to be play the game.
I hope you enjoy the Pathfinder RPG and that it is D&D to you as it is to us.
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Paizo cares. There is a fundamentally different approach to their business. It's called a genuine love of the industry, rather than a 'what can I milk from the industry' outlook.
That's not fair. Remember that WotC created the OGL which allowed the creation of True20, AU, and the PfRPG. And do you really think Paizo just went its own direction out of the goodness of its own heart? Remember that, ultimately, the PfRPG rules will be determined by Jason, Erik, and the rest of the company, not by some American-Idol-esque voting system.
A business's business is to make money whether reaching for a new market (D&D) or catering to an established clientèle (PfRPG).
D&D was in a slump and OGL was thought up to give D&D a much needed boost. WOTC didn't do that to help out small businesses. Paizo went it's own direction in response to a public outcry against WOTC and to make money. I don't ever put down a business trying to make money, what I put down is a business pulling dirty underhanded tactics to try to milk it's consumers. As for the American-Idol comment....many of the proposed changes have already been changed by the fans votes, or maybe you haven't been watching because you are blinded by the shiny new crap WOTC is selling.
WotC has cut too many D&D fans. Call the older fans Grognards, lie about the magazines being discontinued, replace them with crap, lie about the DI....the list is much bigger, but 'That's not fair'?What's not fair is that WotC decided to market D&D away from me. I've played it since 1979 and I no longer like the direction it is taking. WOTC did that. THAT is not fair.
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Hmmm...I downloaded Pathfinder for free. Convinced my play group to do the same. We played. We all loved it.
Sell your 4e books and get on the Pathfinder bandwagon!!!
(Psst, don't tell, but here is the link)
I am sorry you are regretting your decision. On the same token, I want to say... yes, WotC clearly bungled every piece of public relations that they could possibly have bungled in the release. And
frankly, it came very close to costing them me as a customer. I say this as someone who started playing Dungeons & Dragons at the age of 5 or six... and I'm well into my thirties.
BUT - while I appreciate that 4e is not the game for you, I wish people would stop acting like this should be obvious and that only the Pathfinder RPG is the heir to D&D. I played D&D for damn near 30 years... and I just played 4e on Sunday. For me and my group (and I certainly understand that other people's mileage may vary), it was playing D&D. My husband enjoyed and was excited about playing D&D for the first time in ages... he never really liked 3rd edition, but he really felt like 4e - so far - is cool.
I'm glad the OP has found a community where he can commisserate that he (or she) hates the new edition... but I wish people wouldn't act like not liking the new edition should be obvious.
The new issue (June) of Dungeon just started it's release. Anyone who wants a 4e scenario can make their way to a store for free RPG day and get one for free in just a couple weeks. And I fully expect that in addition to the side-treks for Keep on Shadowfell that are already on the Dungeon site on D&D Insider, that there will be additional 4e scenarios there this month.
I'm sorry WotC bungled its public relations this badly. And bungle they did, I won't stick up for them on that point. But they created a version of D&D that I think, so far, is pretty good. I've gotten to the point that I feel unwelcome here for having that opinion. It's almost enough to make me abandon my plans to buy the Pathfinder RPG when it comes out. I used to love this community, and people who can't just let people enjoy the games they enjoy are ruining that community.
- Ashavan
PS - this is in no way intended as an attack on the OP, who has every right to vent about his/her dissatisfaction with 4e.
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But I thought this thread was started in the I Love Pathfinder section of the forums and not the I Love 4e area.
I love Pathfinder and if you post how unhappy you are with XYZ my answer will be "Try Pathfinder."
I did not say anything negative about that other game, which was very difficult for me. So when you are on this side of the fence be nice or we'll all go over there an say mean things about your game.
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Paizo cares. There is a fundamentally different approach to their business. It's called a genuine love of the industry, rather than a 'what can I milk from the industry' outlook.
That's not fair. Remember that WotC created the OGL which allowed the creation of True20, AU, and the PfRPG. And do you really think Paizo just went its own direction out of the goodness of its own heart? Remember that, ultimately, the PfRPG rules will be determined by Jason, Erik, and the rest of the company, not by some American-Idol-esque voting system.
A business's business is to make money whether reaching for a new market (D&D) or catering to an established clientèle (PfRPG).
To be fair though, WOTC has driven off (and yes from what I have read and heard driven off is the best term) or lost almost every supporter of the original OGL. For the last several years their people have been quoted saying that the OGL was the single biggest mistake they ever made. It was long believed that when 4E did arrive it would be with either no OGL or a strict one. Looks like we get the strict one.
But I thought this thread was started in the I Love Pathfinder section of the forums and not the I Love 4e area.
I love Pathfinder and if you post how unhappy you are with XYZ my answer will be "Try Pathfinder."
I did not say anything negative about that other game, which was very difficult for me. So when you are on this side of the fence be nice or we'll all go over there an say mean things about your game.
Sue me, I expect not to feel unwelcome in either place. Because I love pathfinder too.
GAH!
- Ashavan
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But I thought this thread was started in the I Love Pathfinder section of the forums and not the I Love 4e area.
I love Pathfinder and if you post how unhappy you are with XYZ my answer will be "Try Pathfinder."
I did not say anything negative about that other game, which was very difficult for me. So when you are on this side of the fence be nice or we'll all go over there an say mean things about your game.
You're right. The best way to get people to buy Pathfinder is to alienate people that like 4e. The strategy sure worked well when WotC used it, great job recommending that Paizo and the boards follow the same path.
Also, I think you mis-use the future tense. People do "go on the other side of the fence and say mean things about [4e]". I can't imagine how one more would hurt.
Stay classy.
Hmmm...though I do wonder how things would work here if everyone who did like 4e started posting nasty attacks in the Pathfinder section saying it's a game for monkeys and children and nothing anyone could say would change their minds...
Hmmm...though I do wonder how things would work here if everyone who did like 4e started posting nasty attacks in the Pathfinder section saying it's a game for monkeys and children and nothing anyone could say would change their minds...
I for one would be honored to have a baby monkey at my game table. As long as its diaper is on real tight . . .
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I for one would be honored to have a baby monkey at my game table. As long as its diaper is on real tight . . .
Hey you! Knock it off with your quality posts and ideas to keeping s@%$ flinging to a minimum here and in real life. It's really the later that I find offensive. Why, I ask, why, even have a monkey if he is not trained to fling feces at your command? That's like having a dog that won't hump someone's leg on command or a parrott that doesn't swear like a sailor.
That's like having a dog that won't hump someone's leg on command or a parrott that doesn't swear like a sailor.
So you've met my sister-in-law and her pets? ;)
I am too tired to think of anything witty and clever to make my perfectly good point, so I shall be sarcastic instead- after all that's all that these dunces deserve.But I thought this thread was started in the I Love Pathfinder section of the forums and not the I Love 4e area.
I love Pathfinder and if you post how unhappy you are with XYZ my answer will be "Try Pathfinder."
I did not say anything negative about that other game, which was very difficult for me. So when you are on this side of the fence be nice or we'll all go over there an say mean things about your game.
(Edited)
As to the post made by Sebastian I think that Kobold Cleaver would show up with his dire lemmings and pigeons if any flying monkeys turned up here. Possibly even the prospect of combat with regular monkeys might attract his attention.
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Let's all volunteer to walk away from this thread before it gets ugly.
I'm sorry if my joke added brush to the fire.
I'm also sorry that Koldoon feels alienated here.
Maybe we should all be careful and take a step back, so as not to become that which we dispise.
There's no more points to be made. The OP doesn't like 4e, he knows where to buy Pathfinder material.
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I don't ever put down a business trying to make money, what I put down is a business pulling dirty underhanded tactics to try to milk it's consumers.
What so-called "underhanded" business? NO consumer is "forced" to buy anything.
As for the American-Idol comment....many of the proposed changes have already been changed by the fans votes, or maybe you haven't been watching because you are blinded by the shiny new crap WOTC is selling.
I'm well aware of the fate of the combat feats, Paizo's current stand on the CMB, and the gawd-damned bickering over skill ranks, BWC, "fighters too weak" (that barely ended after Trollman left), and every closeted designer trying to get their untested houserule published in the PfRPG. I feel sympathy for Jason who has to shovel through all that c#@! to get any decent playtest data.
I support BOTH system, involved in playtesting PfRPG in a CotCT campaign, linking Pathfinder over at ENworld and rpg.net, etc.
At the same time, I'm prepping to possibly start a 4E campaign and convert Paizo mods to the system as well. I've NEVER lost awareness that BOTH games will attract different fans for different reasons.
What's not fair is that WotC decided to market D&D away from me. I've played it since 1979 and I no longer like the direction it is taking. WOTC did that. THAT is not fair.
Boohoo. Why did you expect WotC -- or any gaming company -- to cater to ANY individual? Sounds like you're so blinded by your anger that you haven't noticed folks threatening to drop Pathfinder because -- gawd! -- they'd have to adjust 3.x NPCs' HITPOINTS. Shall Paizo kowtow to their threats?
Since you've been gaming that long, you probably have all the necessary books/supplements to run D&D whatever version for a lifetime. Stick with it: there are plenty of folks who will continue with 3.x like folks who continue to play -- happily -- older versions of AD&D. While spoil the experience for the rest of us who enjoy PfRPG* or D&D 4E?
*Btw, the Pathfinder RPG is NOT so-called "D&D 3.75". Does anyone see "Dungeons & Dragons" anywhere on the cover? It's its own game based on the 3.x SRD via OGL, similar to Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed.
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Well, I bought the core books for 4E and the first adventure. I convinced my group to buy them. We sold a lot of our books too... And then we read 4e. Quite simply it does not feel like D&D, and it seems like rules are more important then ever.
I read a post over at rpg.net who'll buy your books for $7 a pop.
I just read thru this thread after replying to the one about how to attract 4E players to PRPG.
After making my case in the other thread, I'll summarize it here:
In terms of bringing new players to the game, 3.5/PRPG's advocates have become its worst enemy.
I myself (when 4E's eventual form was still less defined) actually abandoned these boards for several months due to all the 4E hate. It was only once I saw that 4E wasn't delivering what I wanted and heard that Paizo was reprising 3.5 in PRPG that I saw any reason to return and try to have a positive impact.
Why did I leave the last time? Because having to experience "The Two Minute Hate" in every single thread got really f*&#ing old! It's like pouring salt on a field and then wondering why nothing can grow there.
The only way that anyone who likes 4E is ever going to consider the PathfinderRPG is we appeal to what they like about playing table-top RPGs, NOT ridiculing them for daring to enjoy Something Else™.
Seriously, who would actually want to hang out with someone who kicks in the door and starts crashing their party? It's going to work a lot better for ALL of us if we calm down and attract new players rather than scaring them away.
Well, I bought the core books for 4E and the first adventure. I convinced my group to buy them. We sold a lot of our books too... And then we read 4e. Quite simply it does not feel like D&D, and it seems like rules are more important then ever.I read a post over at rpg.net who'll buy your books for $7 a pop.
Minimize your loss with ebay. Sometimes peiple are dumb and you may even come out almost even.
In terms of bringing new players to the game, 3.5/PRPG's advocates have become its worst enemy.
Wow. That's a healthy dose of irony.
Pathfinder is really no alternative for 4th Ed.
"4th Ed." implies it's a new rulesset for an old game, but it isn't. Once you get this straight, most discussions become redundant.
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While I looked through 4E and very easily determined it's not D&D for me, I do realize what it is and respect that some folks will like it, and that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that, we just won't see eye to eye on play styles I think.
BUT, as for folks liking 4E AND Pathinfer RPG? I think that's great. Obviously folks in that field do have some good taste! There's plenty of room in the "Pathfinder club" I think, and in a short time a lot of the more hostile 4e talk on the Pathfinder boards may simply go away.
The more Pathfinder RPG fans, no matter what else they like, the better for Paizo anyway, so game on.
OP: Sorry 4E wasn't for you, getting burned on a purchase like that with high expecations is a real bummer.
-DM Jeff
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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First, to the OP.
Sorry about the buyer's remorse. Hopefully you'll find a good home for the books, or ideas you can salvage from them. I strongly suggest downloading the Alpha if you haven't and please belly up to the bar for critiquing. I've been slowly introducing the concepts into our D&D game (The healing burst style clerics have been well received, and our battle sorcerer just got 'upgraded' with a draconic bloodline, and loves her claws).
As to the pathfinder vitrol vs 4e vitrol, I will point out that critiquing the system isn't the same as slamming it. I can post that I don't like 4e's refresh and recharge mechanic and I'm not 'hating' 4e or slamming it. Just like saying I disagree with Jason's exiling of Concentration or bundling search into perception isn't slamming Pathfinder.
Heck, some people get upset when I call 4e 4.x.
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Flying monkeys are no longer available as minions...
Apparently flying monkeys are an endangered species and my former island stronghold is their natural habitat.
So now I have no minions and no lair to call my own and instead of being an ebil mastermind with aspirations of global dominance I'm reduce to an employee in the manufacturing sector.
Stupid EPA.
SM
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Well, I bought the core books for 4E and the first adventure. I convinced my group to buy them. We sold a lot of our books too... And then we read 4e.
In a strange way, Hanexs, I envy you. You and your group have the perfect opportunity to start fresh. With all those pesky 3.5e splatbooks out of the way, you'll no longer be overwhelmed with oft redundant options.
Instead, might I recommend trying the Alpha release of PFRPG? you group can stat up new characters and make a few mods when the Beta comes out in a couple months. Best part is, the downloadable rules are free. If you like them and are so inclined, you can by a hardcopy of the Beta, which is a combination PHB/DMG.
Like I said, I envy you and your group to a degree... my own group is half-way through the Savage Tide Adventure Path and aren't really in a position to switch to PFRPG.
Good luck & happy gaming.
-Skeld
I have just cancelled my order for the 3 core books on Amazon and ordered the Pathfinder campaign book and monsters book instead. I have played D&D since '87 and for the last few months have tried desperately to want to like 4th ed. I have failed. We have already started ROTRL but i thought that i would make the move to 4th when it came out. Thats not going to happen now. I have read, briefly, the new rules and nothing grabs me. It just feels ...'wrong'. But I will not go down the road of so many on these boards and slag it off. To some people it will be the right thing and to them I say ...Good Luck. Its still RPG and thats what is important. Maybe one day i will play it. Maybe one day i'll play Shadowrun or Star Wars Saga.
As a side note I dont seem to recall there being this uproar and venom when Star Wars D20 changed to Saga. (I know it wasnt as big a change but still,...it makes you think?)
There are two main reasons why I'm going with Pathfinder and not 4th Edition:
- 4E was specifically designed to get Planescape out of D&D.
Since Planescape is my setting of choice, it's a no-brainer. Even if I were to use the new rules with the old cosmology, the changes to planar creatures such as fiends and angels would make it very difficult.
- 4E was specifically designed to be incomplete.
Not only did they leave out bards, monks, etc., but they actually think this is a selling point! On the October 5, 2007 D&D Podcast from WotC, they had this to say:
So, there are some monsters that I very intentionally left out of this book so that when they appear in Monster Manual II, that will help communicate, "Hey, look, this is a core Monster Manual." You don't have frost giants if you don't have Monster Manual N. So I just said something that's out.
Some people have compared 4th Edition to a video game. I'd say that's true, but not in the way most people would. It's more like a game that gets 1 million purchases on its release day, followed by the download of 10 million patches over the next six months.
Well this story ends well. I found out Amazon will take my return with postage FREE.
I felt bad abandoning 4E, but I kind of felt like wizards screwed me and my group. We were so pumped up by all the computer/high tech stuff in these manuals, and then we find out they don't even have a character generator! I bought this game for DNDInsider and the computer aspect of everythin, and I was thinking I am going to have to wait months for this feature? Then I see Pathfinder as a free PDF (not to mention there are already many pdf versions of 4e around). So, I sent back my core books. I emailed my group, gave them a heads up so they might too.
Too bad I sold all my 3E books for 20 bucks. But then again, I wanted to make the jump to pdf anyways. Less crap around my house, searchable content, and I get to read the product before I buy it so no more bait and switches, unbeatable.
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Too bad I sold all my 3E books for 20 bucks.
If you're looking to pick some 3.5e books up again ... go to Amazon and get the ISBN's for the books you want, then check out sites like Abebooks.com. They aggregate smaller, online resellers and you can pick up new books relatively cheap there. Example: I picked up most of the MM's and "Races of" books for $5-$10 each *brand new*.
Hope that helps.
-Skeld
glad to hear it ended well for you man
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I support BOTH system, involved in playtesting PfRPG in a CotCT campaign, linking Pathfinder over at ENworld and rpg.net, etc.
At the same time, I'm prepping to possibly start a 4E campaign and convert Paizo mods to the system as well. I've NEVER lost awareness that BOTH games will attract different fans for different reasons.
Same here.
I like to game. I also support Call of Cthulhu, Dark Heresy, HERO, PDQ, etc.
I've had a great time making a PC for 4e and playing up through a few encounters in H1. Lots of powers to test. Tactical reasoning and movement during combat..
I am having an awesome time playtesting the alpha PFRPG rules. The CMB system makes a bar room brawl very dynamic and hella fun instead of a constant pause to look up a rule. My players and I are enjoying it.
In my DH game I cheered when one of my players got a Righteous Fury result to a head hit and decapitated a tough-ass bad guy!
Anyway point is, the games appeal to different people in different ways, and there is really no need for name calling, bickering, etc.
EDIT - I love Mactaka. And I agree with everything said there.
I cannot understand how people are saying things like "I just bought 4th ed and am regretting it." It has been out a week. Less than, in fact. So how can people say its brilliant! or its crap! I don't get it.
Personally, I bought 4th ed, and from what I have read, it is simpler, quicker, and easier to run and play. I have not gamed with it yet. I am hopeful though, that the game will be smooth in action, and I think it will be. At the very least, I am going to give it a few sessions of playing before making the final call.
I cannot fathom that people look over a ruleset (especially if they have paid for it) and decide it's not worth their time before they play it at least a few times. Makes no sense to me. Give it a shot.
A lot of people are up in arms about 4th ed 'not being D&D'. What does that even mean? The rules are not what defines D&D, its the players. Certainly core mechanics are there, but overall the experience belongs to the players.
All that said, I still love 3.5, and all its pointless complexity. There are bits that are needlessly hard and unfathomable, but I love it anyway.
Not everyone likes both. Some people do, or they at least see the potential in both (nicknamed 'The Enlightened').
Everyone likes a different game. Some groups still play 2nd Ed (I know, go figure) but at the end of the day that is their choice. There is precious little point in debating the differences, mechanical or otherwise between two totally separate versions of THE SAME GAME.
To me, the old jail-saying "Do your own time" has always related well to RPGS, in that you should "play your own game". We all like different things, so let's acknowledge that and move on.
As an aside, when I am looking over the Pathfinder system in a few days time (when I am done with my last assigment this semester, yay!) I will be looking at ITS mechanics, not how they compare to something else, but how they synergise to make a great, playable game (from a quick glance, it looks tops, and I will buy it either way).
Blakeus.
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I have not read the 4th edition rules, and may not ever do so. However, I don't have a problem with someone reading over a new set of rules and rejecting them out of hand.
Humans have a powerful ability to perform 'thought experiments'. This was the great strength of Albert Einstein, and it didn't involve actually DOING anything.
There are lots of reasons that a reader can reject the new books. They may not find them inspiring (something I still like about the art in 2nd edition books), or they may find that the rules won't be accepted by their group, or there may be parts of the rules that defy their expectation of how a world should work, and they may realize that they'll be unable to reconcile the different beliefs.
In any case, I'm sure there are people that also never thought they would like the rules and will find out otherwise. But I'm certainly not surprised to see that the reverse is true. In fact, I expect it to happen more frequently, especially at the beginning.
Well, I bought the core books for 4E and the first adventure. I convinced my group to buy them. We sold a lot of our books too... And then we read 4e. Quite simply it does not feel like D&D, and it seems like rules are more important then ever.
I feel your pain. I did the same. I re-read the PHB last night and I thought I was reading an RPG manual for World of Warcraft.
I did find a use for the core rule set though...I'm going to cover them in plaster, add fake grass,trees and a castle and use it as a hill for my miniatures.For those of you who like the new edition I'm glad. But for me, (an avid DM since 1978) this new edition does not feel like D&D. I'll continue to run my homegrown 3.5 campaign and supplement it with Pathfinder products (which by the way I think are awesome - Way to go Paizo!)
Just my humble opinion.
Speaking only for myself...
The basic mechanics of 4E are compelling and I could grow to like them perhaps. (Squaring the circle makes things nice-and-easy but it strangles the hell out of my suspension of disbelief.) However, the whole reason I got into D&D 16 years ago is because I was an avid writer and the focus on individual and unique characters supported by objective rules appealed to me.
While I can roleplay my characters however I like, regardless of whatever system I am using, the character generation/progression method of 4E as compared to 3.x just doesn't do it for me.
With that said, one thing that a lot of "outsiders" [to D&D] fail to recognize as a key difference between D&D and other games (video or otherwise) is the social factor. It's You and some RealLife™ friends getting together and forming lasting memories. That aspect of D&D won't be obsolete until such a time as "hanging out with friends" in person (rather than online) becomes obsolete (at which point I'd say You humans might as well replace Yourselves with androids. ;)
As such, I will not be getting rid of my copies of the 4E rulebooks. They might not get a hell of a lot of use but, if some friends should invite me to play in a 4E game, I'll join them. It's just that when my turn to DM comes around, the PFRPG book will be front and center. :)
Paizo cares. There is a fundamentally different approach to their business. It's called a genuine love of the industry, rather than a 'what can I milk from the industry' outlook.
That's not fair. Remember that WotC created the OGL which allowed the creation of True20, AU, and the PfRPG. And do you really think Paizo just went its own direction out of the goodness of its own heart? Remember that, ultimately, the PfRPG rules will be determined by Jason, Erik, and the rest of the company, not by some American-Idol-esque voting system.
A business's business is to make money whether reaching for a new market (D&D) or catering to an established clientèle (PfRPG).
Last time I checked though, any of the ten thousand of so people who have downloaded Pathfinder can playtest it and actually tell Jason what they like and OMG! what they don't like! It's really a novel concept.
I'd be more interested in the time machine you used to go back to the mesozoic to access that beachfront property.
Surfing during the age of the Mosasaur kinda scares me.
Megaladon shark attack fears?