Concerning the weapon training trait, I propose that the characters receive the following choice:
1) weapon proficiency in a martial weapon
2) weapon proficiency in an exotic weapon if the charater aleady has all martial weapons in his or her class proficiencies.
3) weapon focus in a class proficiency weapon
This makes the weapon training trait valid for fighter types. This also give non-fighter types the option of being a little better in one of their class weapons. I am not a big "wizards with swords" fan, so this gives wizards an option to utilize weapons training without resorting to carrying a sword or other martial weapon. If a wizard wants to use a sword, fine, but he or she also has the option to become a little better at using his or her staff instead.
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Concerning the weapon training trait, I propose that the characters receive the following choice:
1) weapon proficiency in a martial weapon
2) weapon proficiency in an exotic weapon if the character already has all martial weapons in his or her class proficiencies.
3) weapon focus in a class proficiency weapon
I like this. (I had proposed for Alpha 2 that humans could choose a proficiency in an exotic weapon from their home culture)
Option 3 does come up against the issue that weapon focus is one of those feats that has a pre-req of BAB +1 or higher yet they are useful for non-warrior types (along with weapon finesse and quick draw).
What we have home-ruled is that humans get Martial Weapon Proficiency if they are not already proficient with all martial weapons. If they already are, they instead get Weapon Focus for a weapon, or Exotic Wepon Proficiency.
I do see your point, but humans already get an average of three-four feats at 1st level ... even one more (WF) feels a little ridiculous.
What we have home-ruled is that humans get Martial Weapon Proficiency if they are not already proficient with all martial weapons. If they already are, they instead get Weapon Focus for a weapon, or Exotic Wepon Proficiency.
I do see your point, but humans already get an average of three-four feats at 1st level ... even one more (WF) feels a little ridiculous.
Unless I'm completely off base, your idea is the exact same as his, excluding possibly the choice of getting a martial weapon proficiency or weapon focus at first level without needing to be trained in all martial weapons.
As for the suggestion, I'm not 100% on it. I like to think of the bonus weapon prof as a treat for humans, but nothing integral (I'm not really sure *why* they get it, honestly). I don't really have a problem with them not getting the benefit if their class already gives them a superior benefit - the same happens all the time with other decisions. But this would be an acceptable fix if Paizo really felt that it needed one.
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<reflogging the alpha 2 pony>Instead of torches and pitchforks, all human commoners can now brandish with skill and efficiency halberds or warhammers. That's an image that makes me as nervous as half-orc commoners trained with greataxes or falchions. But I'm repeating myself, I think.</reflogging the alpha 2 pony>
Previous floggings: 'ere and over there.
I'd go with
Weapon familiarity: any one exotic weapon is a martial weapon
or
Weapon proficiency: Any one exotic weapon.
Keeps things simple, and the latter is hardly overpowered.
I wouldn't give them the choice of weapon focus, though.
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Dwarves and Elves had had this option for years... Elves received longsword, shortshort, longbow and shortbow for free back in AD&D, where Weapon Proficencies for any class (including Fighters!) was a very precious resource.
Not quite. In 3.5, only elves had the racial weapon proficiency.
Dwarves and all the other races had no racial weapon proficiency.Exotic weapons are suppossed to be rare.
It depends on who you ask.
1. One race's martial weapon is another race's exotic weapon (See the 3.5 Weapon Familiarity concept)2. An exotic weapon for one class can be a class weapon for another class (See the monk's special weapons).
In a world of dragons, ogres, and wargs I'd expect every NPC to want to keep a weapon close at hand.
It's already the case.
The commoner is proficient with one simple weapon.
The expert is proficient in the use of all simple weapons.
The aristocrat is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons. etc.
I would like to see:
Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one martial or simple weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. If their starting class is already proficient with all martial and simple weapons then an exotic weapon may be selected instead. Alternatively humans can select weapon focus for any weapon that they are proficient with at first level and may take exotic weapon proficiency as their first level feat even if they do not meet the +1 attack bonus requirement. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.
This keeps it simple. Warrior classes still get a weapons bounus for being human and you will not end up with a wizard running around with a great sword unless they are willing to burn a feat for it (which only a retard would as a magic feat would be so much better so let them!). Instead wizards etc can focus for free on a simple weapon and actually get a chance of fending off melee attacks when they are out of first level spells or slight increase in success delevering spells stored in a item. Not to over powered and makes sense!
Sooooo your saying that all classes should get simple weapons and then get the option of one martial
OR
All classes get simple weapons and if you get all martial then you just get one exotic?
I think I agree with Saurstalk. I'd give everyone access to simple weapons (some characters, like druids, might not be able to use some metal ones because of their oaths, but they'd still be proficient with ironwood weapons of the same type).
After that, humans gain the Weapon Training racial feature. Humans who do not have access to martial weapons (through their 1st class level) would gain proficiency with one martial weapon of their choice, by virtue of that racial feature. Humans who already have proficiency with all martial weapons by virtue of their 1st class level would instead gain proficiency with one exotic weapon. (That way, human fighters don't get gypped out of a racial feature. Humans who, for example, take a level of rogue and choose a martial weapon, and who take a fighter level later on, do NOT get a free exotic weapon at that point -- the racial feature only applies at 1st level.)
I'm on the fence about "swapping out" Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Weapon Focus, but it doesn't seem like it would do that much harm.
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As it stands now it is a more flexible version of the benefit given to elves. I don't see why it needs tweaking.
Is there going to be a change to the elf feature to give them weapon focus if the class already has proficiency in the long sword/ long bow?
It seems to me that you are trying to make this into a racial feature that can benefit everyone but you are transforming it into yet another free feat for the fighter.
Count me as not a fan of this idea.
- Dennis
The fact that elves have the same issue (as pointed out by my DM) is what made me drop this as a problem for humans only, instead I think that is applies to all races.
I do not agree with the assessment that altering it would be giving some classes an extra feat (fighters) and other classes (wizards) are not getting one now. It’s not like the fighter can trade their weapon training in for combat expertise or dodge etc. It HAS to be weapon proficiency or weapon focus, yet wizards are currently getting a weapon proficiency feat and the fighters are not! Also, every time I have taken weapon proficiency or weapon focus as a feat I have regretted it as a better weapon of a different type has popped up meaning that that feat was wasted, the +1 was not worth it for the short time it was used. This means that many characters are unwilling to try out different weapons incase it does not pan out or something better pops up later. As a result the majority of fighters are running around with long swords, great variation! Should the difference in skill between a first level human fighter and wizard with the long sword simply be the base attack bonus? Should a human fighter be as proficient with a long sword and long bow as an elf who has them as their racial weapon? By allowing the following this is addressed for all characters.
Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one martial or simple weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. If their starting class is already proficient with all martial and simple weapons then an exotic weapon may be selected or they may gain weapon focus instead. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.
Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon. If their starting class is already proficient with all listed weapons then weapon focus maybe taken for one melee and one ranged weapon. This weapons must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.
Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons, Elves get Longbow and Longsword proficiency, most races treat any weapon with the race name in it as a martial weapon, Gnomes add +1 to the DC on illusion spells, Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks... the list goes on.
All of these racial features have one thing in common. Every single one of them has one or more classes where they are completely worthless. Dwarves treat the waraxe as a martial weapon... awesome for a dwarf fighter. Worthless for a Dwarf wizard. +1 to spell DCs? Not very useful to a rogue. +2 on acro and climb? not likely to help a sorcerer much
Almost all racial features benefit some classes more than others. It's part of the mechanics of the game. Are you going to rewrite all of these class benefits so they benefit every class equally? Good luck.
Human weapon training benefits non-warrior types instead of warriors.
Not that races have to be balanced for every class.. but this one actually works. Warrior-types gain more from the human's bonus feat than other classes (there aren't many good feats for spellcasters, especially at 1st level, where even most of the fighter feats are barred to them, while for any warrior feats are a huge deal).
Rogues and bards gain some benefit from the bonus feat and gain some benefit from the proficiency (even though they already have a few martial weapons, another never hurts).
As for commoners equipped with longswords... Not many commoners can actually affort martial weapons. They cost more than slings and clubs. Actually, slings and clubs cost 0 gp.
Furthermore, not every common human need be even proficient in a martial weapon. I'm sure there are elves who don't know how to use a longbow, or dwarves who have never seen a traditional dwarven weapon. Hell, there are probably humans who have never held a weapon at all. Those things aren't abilities you're born with, they're just something any heroic member of the race can be expected to have.
Almost all racial features benefit some classes more than others. It's part of the mechanics of the game. Are you going to rewrite all of these class benefits so they benefit every class equally? Good luck.
Hmmm, yup I see your point and it’s a good one, especially for the DC on spells, but then again the non-spell casting classess also get +2 vs illusion saves so the illusion theme is maintained accross all clasess. And while the Halfling rogue gains the most benefit to +2 on Arco and climb, the Halfling sorcerers still gains some benefit and that is the point. Warrior types gain no benefit from the weapon training which is a warrior trait, fighting with weapons! It does not make sense.
Personally I think Paizo should work towards writing the racial features so they add to every class, but it does not have to be equal across all classes. This would reduce players from going, well I want a mage so what is the races that are suited to this class, great yet another Elf Wizard. Also, we are talking about +1 and weapon proficiencies here, not whole new skills. If these changes were made it would not unbalance the game, at lower levels your pretty weak as it is and at higher levels it will not matter, it will just make a bit more sense.
As it stands now it is a more flexible version of the benefit given to elves. I don't see why it needs tweaking.
Is there going to be a change to the elf feature to give them weapon focus if the class already has proficiency in the long sword/ long bow?
It seems to me that you are trying to make this into a racial feature that can benefit everyone but you are transforming it into yet another free feat for the fighter.
Count me as not a fan of this idea.
- Dennis
I was going to say something, but luckily Dennis said it all for me! I completely agree.
I preferred weapon training to be given to half-elves rather than humans. Even without this benefit, people still choose human characters for their strengths -- adding another isn't necessary.
Well to be honest it's not that great a benefit for anyone.
Wizards - Can Grab Longbow but even so it's going to suck versus their first level at will power
Clerics - Maybe can grab a martial weapon here but then they often got one anyways from their deity's weapon choice. Also, same as Wizard.
Sorcerers - See Wizard, maybe it helps them a tiny bit at low levels.
Rogues - Hmm, this may be the class that benefits the most from this
Bards - See Rogue
Monks - Have their own weapons
Basically Clerics and maybe Rogues are the only actual beneficiaries of this class skill in any significant way and even so... not a lot.
Personally I think Paizo should work towards writing the racial features so they add to every class, but it does not have to be equal across all classes. This would reduce players from going, well I want a mage so what is the races that are suited to this class, great yet another Elf Wizard.
Well then you need to eliminate racial ability bonuses and favored class which are probably the #1 biggest racial features which people use to min-max their characters. Much more important than the trivial benefit from a single weapon proficiency. You would also need to eliminate the small sized races because small size is better for certain classes...
I find it interesting that half-elves are the only race that don't receive any kind of automatic weapon proficiency: half-orcs and dwarves and gnomes get exotic racial weapons as martial ones; humans get a free martial weapon. Half-elves get squat.