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With all the hoopla about 10,000 downloads of the first alpha I was quite surprised when I went to a con this weekend (Gamex in Los Angeles) and ran into relatively few people who knew about the upcoming Pathfinder RPG and all the rules testing. I'm a fairly active poster here so I know I'm not the norm, but I figured more folks would at least know what was going on at Paizo.com. (Of course, I spread the gospel)
I realize that sending Paizo folks to all but the biggest cons doesn't make financial sense. And I'm just now realizing that what gets played at most cons seems to be what volunteers volunteer to run. So I guess I'm not surprised there aren't many Pathfinder games running yet.
But I am surprised there wasn't a Paizo/Pathfinder ad in the con's little schedule books at least announcing Pathfinder and giving the website. It makes me curious about how Paizo is and is planning on getting the word out to folks who don't frequent the Paizo website. Again, I do, but I'm not sure what % of the market does.
I haven't followed the Pathfinder Society forums at all so maybe this is being discussed over there, but if it isn't, maybe this is an area where we can all brainstorm and help out as well.
BTW - Anybody have a sense of how Gamex/Stratigicon compares in the big scheme of things? I've only been to those and the old GenCon SoCal before it went under. That was HUGE (and Paizo did have a booth there) but is gone now. LA just seems like a pretty big market and might be worth a little Paizo love (please?).
BTW2 - For anyone who cares, a lot of folks had a chance to try 4E at Gamex and are starting to actually report on their experiences. Here's one thread. Enjoy.
Might be too soon, though I am suprised. Part of the problem is the marketing money Hasbro has, along with the fact that 4th is just coming out.
Normally I would say that its because there are three levels of Pathfider fans. hard core on the boards. GMs who don't want to let go of 3.5 but may or may not have even heard of Pathfinder yet. And Players who depending on if they are really into gaming or just do it for fun, have no idea and really don't care. The play what the gm is playing. But if this happaned at a con, you'd think there would at lest be some buzz.
If I may ask what was the general mood over the 4th ed. debate, if you even bothered to get into that.
In either case I'm surpised no one is even palytesting at a con.
CEO
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Well ramp up our marketing as we head out of 2008 and into next year. Lots of it will involved the Pathfinder Society. It would probably be a waste of precious money to try to go toe to toe with the 4e juggernaut right now, but later this year and into next, when the luster is off 4e, it might find more fertile ground.
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well ramp up our marketing as we head out of 2008 and into next year. Lots of it will involved the Pathfinder Society. It would probably be a waste of precious money to try to go toe to toe with the 4e juggernaut right now, but later this year and into next, when the luster is off 4e, it might find more fertile ground.
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
Honestly? I'm not sure what else you can do at this point. I mean the word is out on the message boards, you (meaning Paizo staff) are giving interviews, press releases, etc. Short of randomly popping up at FLGS and pelting people with copies, that is.
As you said Lisa, you can't compete with 4E. Hasbro of Borg will try to make sure everything is assimilated into their collective. Once the Shiny is off, that will help. I think at this point the marketing has to be more viral (I think I'm using that term correctly) the community/fanbase running games, directing people to the site, etc.
In my case, I'm slowly slipping Pathfinder rules into the 3.x game I'm running. The party is already enthused about the new cleric, and next is to rebuild the Sorcerer/Battle Sorcerer into a Pathfinder character. It's an uphill battle, but I'm working on it :D
I'm not surprised. People from these boards are emphatically not going to places like EnWorld and talking up the game, which is really incredibly disappointing.
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I don't share the experience of the OP. I went to a German RPG Convention in Münster, Germany in April. I bought Pathfinder supplements at three different stores - and I heard reactions like - yeah, the good! D&D stuff or Paizo - the better Wizards, can't wait for their Game. Reactions like these came from the shopkeepers (despite them probably relying on a good sale of 4th ed. in June).
A coworker in my FLGS's stand advised a customer looking for a good fantasy RPG to wait for PRPG. I asked - none of these folk are part of this forums community - so word is out there.
On the other Hand - I had to buy the pathfinder products at three different shops because all those shopkeeers agreed that sometimes the Paizo stuff is hard to get their hands on (here in Germany at least - and I - as a customer not owning a credid card must agree to that). So, perhaps there is something that could be changed...
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Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
I was quite pleased that my FLGS (Pandemonium in Garden City Michigan /plug) had an announcement posted on the wall of their RP section detailing the Pathfinder RPG, it's intent, and their support for it. They are always a good place to find GameMastery products and the AP's, but they also had some of the Chronicles products this time. I chatted with the attendant for a while on what Paizo was trying, some of the new rules, etc. He seemed intrigued and who knows, he may download the rules himself and give them a try.
This kind of grass roots support may not get to the cons, but when everyone going in to buy the 4e preview product sees that sign, they might just think to themselves "Maybe 3e isn't dead after all?"
power to the community!
Ryn, who just loves this stuff
At my FLGS, the Pathfinder Mods are displayed in the front as you walk in. Next to that are the D&D 4e pre-order cards. I talk to the game stor folks and they are pretty much half and half. I was over at Necro and stated this but was shot down in flames over it. The fact is, in my area, half are going 4e, half are going Pathfinder. That is the highly vocal count. As for the silent majority....dunno.
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Any Pathfinder supporter reading these message boards should be encouraged to have a conversation with local game store owners and with gamers in their local area. Word of mouth is perhaps one of the most powerful advertising instruments. I'd like to see a thread created called "How are you raising awareness of Pathfinder RPG?"
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
Pehaps a CD of the beta document, with an autostart that launches the file, links to the Paizo boards, and contains welcome messages and project goals from the designers. Placed strategically, it could go long way to getting the word out, despite costs. If nothing else, you could provide the files for us to download, ready to burn to disk and be taken to anywhere that sells RPGs; even though there's no FLGS in my area, I can count three or four locations off the top of my head that might be interested in distributing such disks, the county library being one of them.
Printing up some sort of "Introduction to the Pathfinder World" to distribute to local FLGS and bookstores might be an effective marketing tool. Good art and something physical to read might attract people that will see shelves full of 4e books to think about something else on the horizon...not to mention the incredible sense of community Paizo has developed on this website compared to the rather stifling Gleemax boards of WOTC.
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At my FLGS, the Pathfinder Mods are displayed in the front as you walk in. Next to that are the D&D 4e pre-order cards.
That is very encouraging, and reminds me of the debate within the comics community, after the speculator bubble burst.
Many retailers were very wary of trying new, small-press titles, preferring to stick with the tried-and-true superheroes from the major publishers, despite the fact that these were the very titles that had caused the crash in the first place, via short-term gimmicks, such as variant covers, foil, holograms, annual re-launches ("Look! It's Issue One! It's Valuable! Buy 10 Copies!").
Ask them about anything out of their comfort zone, and you would get the response "That stuff is too risky. They don't sell". The reason these retailers had no success selling them, is because they made no effort to sell them, being relegated to a back room, or pushed behind an inflatable Wolverine, or the back-issue bins.
If these titles had been given equal space and visibility, they would have attracted the very customers they were designed for, who were looking for something different, and quite possibly, were coming into the store, taking a look around at the rows of Marvel/DC stuff, and leaving, thinking "Same old stuff. Nothing for me here".
The owner of Page 45 in Nottingham (I forget his name, but he later became a columnist for Comics International), related his experiences, when he took over his shop from the previous owner. He reversed the traditional 'proven' set-up, and moved all the independent titles to the front-of-house, unblocked the windows to let in the light, got rid of gimmicky toys and non-reading-related items (this is supposed to be a book shop!), and moved the superhero stuff to a back room. He found that these moves, which were decried as madness by many, actually improved trade, with the independents selling many times what he expected, with no reduction in the sales of the 'mainstream' titles. Even though they were out of immediate sight, it made no difference, since the customers who bought those titles were the ones who already had 'every X-title', or 'every Bat-title' on pre-order. Or they would come in, go to the shelves, and bish-bash-bosh, grab one of everything and take it to the till. The independents were aimed at those people who wanted something tailored to their needs, and appreciated the ability to firstly, find a new title, and secondly, to browse it in a relaxed environment, and not crammed between a tower of ten-year old Starlogs, and a spinner rack of fake dog-turds and stink bombs.
The parallels to gaming stand out to me as obvious; the products with the multi-million dollar advertising budget do not need special promotion. The customers already know about them, and will come looking for them. You could make better use of your time and effort to set up a shelf of interesting new releases, stick a flag over the 'manager's pick of the week', and be aware of what's out there, so when a customer expresses dissatisfaction with the mainstream, you can step in with "Have you ever heard of Product X?".
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Well, I seem to have gotten my group switched over to being pretty hefty 3p supporters, with really only one of them showing any interest in looking at 4e at all.
Both my local gaming stores tend to place the paizo modules pretty prominently(and always seem to have trouble keeping things like the harrow deck and crit fumble deck and things like that in stock because they sell out quickly) so I try and pick up what I can through them.
I saw on another part of the boards that someone mentioned seeing some Paizo stuff at one of the big chain bookstores so I have been keeping an eye out at my borders and barnes and noble to see if they get anything in, figuring it would be worth picking up a Paizo book from them, even if I already owned it(can always use an extra copy in the group) just to show my support and if those big retail places see that they actually sell that will get Paizo a lot more face time.
I'm not normally a con person, but I've been giving real thought to going to ComicCon this year(I'm in the San Diego area). Obviously, I'll spread the word as best I can with anyone who seems interested, but I know that the staff said they weren't going to have an official presence at ComicCon this year.
Is there any way that us volunteer types who want to help make 3p the best it can be can help out? I can't say I'd have much of a budget to put into such a venture, but I've got access to an automated CD burner and I wouldn't have a problem whipping up a hundred or so disks with the latest version of 3p on it(maybe with a copy of the SRD too, since I think con is before the beta will be out) to show off as samples.
I'm not the most artistic, but making a label with 'Pathfinder RPG Alpha Test' and the golem along with paizo's website/copyright info shouldn't be too hard. Unless someone who is much more talented then I in that regard wanted to whip one up for me.
Would this sort of grassroots marketing be something that the staff would be interested in having, or do you feel it would be better to wait until after the beta release? Maybe having a note in the case that said something along the lines of:
'Paizo Publishing(former Publisher of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, creator of the Pathfinder Adventure Path line) is demoing the Pathfinder Role Playing System in an open playtest. This system is designed to be compatible with the worlds most popular role playing game, while updating many of its current limitations.
Currently in the Alpha stage of development, this document is designed to be shared and allow you to pretest the rules before they are released. More importantly, with this being an open playtest you can voice your opinion of these rules and help shape the direction of the game we know and love by talking directly with other playtesters and the designers themselves at http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards
Come and make your voice heard!
For the latest information about this system, or to download the most recent copy of this document, please visit http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG '
If there actually is any interest in this sort of thing to be done, I'd love to hear from you guys, either here or shooting me an email. Felixcosima at yahoo dot com
Thanks,
-Tarlane
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Well ramp up our marketing as we head out of 2008 and into next year. Lots of it will involved the Pathfinder Society. It would probably be a waste of precious money to try to go toe to toe with the 4e juggernaut right now, but later this year and into next, when the luster is off 4e, it might find more fertile ground.
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
I'd recommend coming up with a tournament length Pathfinder setting scenario that showcases the setting. Don't get wrapped up in it being Pathfinder Society or anything, just something that a judge can take to a con, sit down with a table of players and play without having to worry about the overhead of a persistent campaign. The existing Gamemastery scenarios are all great, but all of them take much longer than the 4-5 hours of time you can run at a con, and folks want to be able to play something they could actually complete (side suggestion - maybe come out with a Gamemastery Short Shots product - 32 page mod with two 12-page scenarios and several full page pregens for them. A judge could take it to the con, pick one of the scenarios and away they go. Sell print and regular versions for regular price and "single" pdfs of the individual adventures for like $4.99 for a judge who just wants to pick up something cheap).
Indeed it would be pointless to try and compete with the corporate behemoth now. Bide your time until August. Once the Beta gets out, you will have something pretty substantial as the spearhead of your promotion. The excitement for 4th ed. will start to die down, no matter what WotC does. A lot of ppl will begin to understand that the system is not for them, they 'll get pretty pissed about PHB 2,3,4 etc. AND having to pay for virtual minis and will start looking for alternatives.
You can buildup your marketing until Xmas. One main problem with 4th ed (mark my words on this) is that the rigid and streamlined system will get boring and repetitive soon. Next year the disappointment with 4th ed and WotC will become an avalanche. Until the completed PRGP is ready keep mounting the pressure. And when it is time to get out... Carpe jugulum! (sorry couldn't resist) You go for the jugular and some ppl will wonder what hit them.
Is it plausable or possible to run Pathfinder Society stuff online?
As they are gearing it to home play as well as convention play, I don't see why not. :)
My FLGS just recently started displaying Pathfinder prominently. I'd never heard of it until recently, to be honest. Actually, I heard about it on the WotC forums.
No one in my group knew anything about it either.
Of course, I don't know what Paizo's marketing budget is, so it's hard to say the best course to take to promote Pathfinder.
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Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
I'm not a marketeer and I don't have alot of brilliant ideas, but it occurs to me that the Paizo Community has alot of untapped potential. There's community generated art, software tools, wikkis, and a vast amount of pther stuff I haven't even imagined yet.
Maybe a common, community-driven Paizo-hosted webspace would help to pull in additional visitors. Visistors become customers. The Paizo/Pathfinder community seems to be very savvy at spreading word about Pathfinder.
Maybe I'm not making must sense as this is all stream of consciousness.
Also, you should have some people dress up in authentic-looking costumes of various iconics for the cons you visit. A legion of Seonis will go a long way to getting Pathfinder out there.
-Skeld
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
Why not have a "Game Day" type of event shortly after the rules launch. Doesn't have to go to the extent WotC does with D&D Game Day, of course - that would get expensive I imagine. Just have an adventure that is good for newbies and disgruntled 3.X players alike (and also 4E players who are looking for something else). Send the game stores some promotional materials well ahead of time.
4E D&D Game Day was a huge success at my local store. I don't know if that was true everywhere, but it translated directly into getting people who knew virtually nothing about 4E to be interested in it.
4E has the brand behind it, of course, but it seems like you could generate interest and have a successful event.
Also, don't forget about throwing stuff onto YouTube, etc. Doesn't have to have high production values. If done properly you could get crossover traffic from people searching for D&D-related material, thereby getting the word out to those players.
Another idea is hacking DNDi, if it ever goes live, so that a party is in the middle of combat when a succubus with a Pathfinder banner goes strolling across the virtual battlemat...
Is it plausable or possible to run Pathfinder Society stuff online?You mean like the D&D Insider?
Just kidding.
I'm curious how you'd do this outside of pbp or spending a small fortune on a good online platform.
By small fortune do you mean 0$? ;)
Check MapTool!
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
If you want more exposure at local conventions, you may consider having regional representatives. These representatives may be part time or contract workers who are knowledgable about Paizo products, and can work a booth without incurring the cost to fly Paizo staff to the area. You do take some risk in picking the right regional rep who you can depend on, but once established you have a local person that you can rely upon to go to cons and spread the word. Beyond that person, a booth really just needs a few banners (Seoni and the Pathfinder logo), some sample products, and people will stop by to ask questions.
I may even know someone in WI who would be willing to submit a resume. :)
My only other comment would be to keep investing in your art work. The only reason I ever picked up a D&D book was because I saw the cover art. Same for Pathfinder. I rarely visit a RPG store, but when I did there was a copy of PF#3 (only 1 copy), and it was stuck among many other items that did not catch my attention.
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
I didnt read the other replys yet so sorry if it was said already.
Pathfinder Game Day.
Just like 4th edition you need a day where the release of the Pathfinder RPG has fanfare and events at gaming stores.
For examle look at my Local Gaming Store. The most recent Gamemastery Modual they have is Carnaval of Tears and they still dont have Edge of Anarchy.
When they get around to it there will be a day when they amazingly have new Pathfinder stuff on the shelves but its rare.
Same with Goodman Dungeon Crawl Classics. They still dont have #51. And Necromancer games was never on the shelves at all for quite a long time.
But over the weekend you can bet there was D&D Gameday and a ton of 4th edition core books to be put on shelves on release day.
Come August 2009 everyone who cares about D&D and roleplaying should know the day Pathfinder RPG hits shelves and on that day the book should actually be there along with games and promo stuff.
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I would like to suggest another form of advertising:
Web Comics. Toss up some banner ads on OotS, Goblins, Looking for Group, and Perils of the Bold (to name a few) along with some hobby sites like Hirst Art, and some other painting and modeling sites. Heck you may even try to advertise on sites like Maptools, Fantasygrounds, Dunjinni, Battlegrounds and the other virtual tabletop/mapping tool sites. Everyone on all those sites play games. Maybe they will play yours if they see it.
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I would like to suggest another form of advertising:
Web Comics. Toss up some banner ads on OotS, Goblins, Looking for Group, and Perils of the Bold (to name a few) along with some hobby sites like Hirst Art, and some other painting and modeling sites. Heck you may even try to advertise on sites like Maptools, Fantasygrounds, Dunjinni, Battlegrounds and the other virtual tabletop/mapping tool sites. Everyone on all those sites play games. Maybe they will play yours if they see it.
Send free HARD copies of the Beta to those sites' owners and just ask to have a link on their link page in return. I've learned about a lot of sites by going through a trusted and respected site's links page.
Here's my idea
If Paizo could do up two nice pieces of art, and post them on the website for any and all to download. They should not be in the download part of the website, as it would probably not be good to have them personalized.
1: The beta cover, with the price listed on it, and the release date.
2: Something similar, but with more information, on 16 pages (that is 4 pages x 4 pages), that can be tape up in a store window or on one of their walls. These 16 pages would be individually downloadable, and set so that they would be easily aligned with each other.
Number one should be available in both color and black and white.
As there are a lot of us gamers/fans, we could print these out and post the small ones in stores, gaming clubs, etc.... This would get the word out fairly fast.
I do believe that a lot of us have printed out all 3 Alpha's in color, so printing a dozen or so one page posters would not be too much of a problem.
Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
You guys have wonderful art. Art is more often than not your first contact with a game (from posters to adds to images you see while scanning through the books)
Pathfinder's art is not only clear and well done, it has a definitive pathfinder signature. That is a strong, evocative and visual marketing asset.
Teasers and previews are always better with pictures, at least in an early stage of marketing. Substance and content is more likely to be read where it would otherwise have been overlooked. It also sad to say, but it also shows that the company has some budget, or at least can afford to "waste" ink and space on artistic decoration, picture and good graphism.
On a similar tangent, I always found that character record sheets were a very evocative evidence of the quality of the game. Very technical sheets betray very technical system. Flavorful, colorful sheets more flavorful games. Original or ergonomic character sheets show some though behind the whole character concept, etc. I always considered the character sheet as the Curriculum Vitae of a RPG...
this is obviously very subjective, but I think an artistically integrated character sheet would fit Pathfinder very well.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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You guys have wonderful art. Art is more often than not your first contact with a game (from posters to adds to images you see while scanning through the books)
Pathfinder's art is not only clear and well done, it has a definitive pathfinder signature. That is a strong, evocative and visual marketing asset.
I take one preview picture each month -- usually a heroic picture or a fantasy landscape but nothing too dark -- and slap a calendar in the corner. It goes on both my desktop and my laptop. Some of my students ask me about the picture and I have no qualms about telling them about it and where it comes from.
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Do you have any thoughts on how we could get the word out better?
-Lisa
Lets see.
- Theme song. Check Turn into video with some goblin art and see if it goes viral?
- Do a mock Item Card for the Pathfinder RPG Beta and get your FLGS to stick one in the bag with every purchase.
- Snarky slogan to play up the user input of the beta process and poke the "big boys" with a pointy stick a the same time. Hmmmmmm Nope. Tired of slogging around in the basement? Get in on the ground floor. Pathfinder or Forge your own trail. Pathfinder RPG Uh, maybe not.
So now we know why I am in IT and not marketing. OK maybe it is a little too late for mindgamez.
Well, this probably doesn't hurt too much...