Reading through Alpha 3, I noticed that the Ranger still has only the two "traditional" combat styles. Wouldn´t it be posssible to add some more combat styles, like "Sword and Board", "Two-Handed Weapons" and the like?
It would get the Ranger a bit more away from the Drizzt stereotype, that´s for sure.
Not a bad idea, but I would rather like to see a mobility variant (Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack) than sword and board.
It's a good idea to add more choice for fighting style :
Range
Two weapons
Two handed ( think about Aragorn, ranger of the norh, and Anduril ) ( he can gain the two handed combat feat )
Mounted combat
and so on ...
In the Thieves' World Manual (by Green Ronin) there is a ranger variant that has 5 paths to follow(listed below along with associated feat paths).
Archery:Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot
Cavalry:Ride-By Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge
Assault:Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (any non-light melee weapon)
Skirmish:Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
2-weapon:2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Greater 2-weapon Fighting
The point is, that he gets those feats without meeting the pre-requisites. So you have ( at the moment ) a T-W Ranger who doesn´t *need* a high dexterity. Although he´ll probabably have it already. :P
Archery:Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise ShotCavalry:Ride-By Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge
Assault:Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (any non-light melee weapon)
Skirmish:Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
2-weapon:2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Greater 2-weapon Fighting
These options are very nice. With the ability to have a mount of sorts, the ranger could really use the 'Cavalry' option you've offered there.
Awesome!
Peace,
tfad
Archery:Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot
Cavalry:Ride-By Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge
Assault:Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (any non-light melee weapon)
Skirmish:Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
2-weapon:2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Greater 2-weapon Fighting
I really like those, and may have to house rule them in if they don't make the cut for PRPG.
Whirlwind Attack doesn't fit for a skirmisher, though, because it's the antithesis of hit-and-run tactics. It's a full attack action, which isn't going to get you into combat and then out again. Why Spring Attack is a prereq for the feat is beyond me, but I don't think that should be the Ranger's combat style capstone.
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Ever since the advent of 3E I have hated the Combat Style ability. I really think the ranger's abilities should focus on being awesome in ways that don't directly step on the fighter's toes. Its a REALLY dumb sacred cow in my opinion and it needs to go. Its the only thing I dont like about the new ranger.
Seriously... a ranger with... An AXE.
I've always remebered little red riding hood was saved by a damn "woodsman" with a itch on for lycantrhropes.
Ranger axeman please. Course that not really back compatable supported but an add on falls in to the category still right?
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Honestly, giving the Ranger a couple of fighting Feats doesn't make him a Fighter, and given his target and location specialties coupled with his hunter's bond stuff, the Ranger is already extremely distinct from the Fighter. Having a couple of Fighter-type Feats is the combat class equivalent of Paladin/Ranger spellcasting.
Thats not really what I meant. I mean that no other class, even the Fighter, is forced to adhere to one of two very limited styles of fighting. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some kind of combat boost, I'm saying there should be some other mechanic besides feats to give the Ranger her edge. Or, if you HAVE to do it with feats, give them a pool to pick from at certain levels instead of two static paths.
Every other class in PFRPG has been given a LOT of options in how to build a character. I don't see why this one had to stay static. It would make more sense to convert some of the "Improved Favored Enemy" feats from the splatbooks or make some "Improved Favored Terrain" feats, and make them options in addition to combat feats being available and not pigeonholing the Ranger into one of two molds. No other class (except arguably the monk) shoehorns a PC so much as the Ranger does. I think it needs to be revised.
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I thought of iconic rangers when looking at the combat styles. Archery = Legolas, Two-weapon = Drizzt.
Where are Aragorn and Minsc? I was really looking for more combat styles and was thus very disappointed upon seeing that almost no change in this has been made.
Sure, the combat styles offer a range of different feats. This is good.
I thought of iconic rangers when looking at the combat styles. Archery = Legolas, Two-weapon = Drizzt.
Where are Aragorn and Minsc? I was really looking for more combat styles and was thus very disappointed upon seeing that almost no change in this has been made.
Sure, the combat styles offer a range of different feats. This is good.
Yeah, at the least a THW combat style would be appreciated.
In the Thieves' World Manual (by Green Ronin) there is a ranger variant that has 5 paths to follow(listed below along with associated feat paths).
Archery:Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot
Cavalry:Ride-By Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge
Assault:Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (any non-light melee weapon)
Skirmish:Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
2-weapon:2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Greater 2-weapon Fighting
These seem like a very worthwhile addition to the Ranger repertoire. If Pathfinder does not include these I will House Rule them into being.
CJ
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I can see the argument for adding things to the ranger. I see it as a fantastic class myself, with little need of change, but there is merit in your idea.
If i were to add anything to the class, it would be the Two-Handed style. This has alot of grounding in fantasy and could certainly be done without overpowering the class. If we add to many styles to the class however i see it stepping on the fighter's toes. The fighter is the flexible one, the ranger is more stream-lined and designed with a specific focus in mind. Granted, this shouldn't pigeon-hole the ranger, but i like the idea. Especially since the ranger doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for any of his style feats.
the biggest problem i see with the styles of the ranger are this, if you build a ranger around a certain style, you almost always meet the normal prerequisites for the feats anyway. TW style goes str/dex/con, ranged goes dex/con. If we added THW it would become the str/con style. People play to a style's (and classes) strengths. Not a problem i guess, just an observation for discussion.
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I'm for adding a thrown weapon, and a THW at the very least.
But wouldn't thrown weapon feel to ninja-ish? I mean, i guess i can see throwing axes, but that folds into the "archer" template anyway. Point-blank shot isn't simply limited to bows and crossbows. Neither is rapid shot/shoot on the run either by my understanding. Any ranged attack could be used for these. At least thats how i thought it worked.
Getting rid of them would be a bad idea. PF shouldn't take things away.
I'm all for extra combat styles, though. My suggestions
Two-Weapons
Archery
Skirmish (hit-and-run tactics, maybe mix with using pole-arms to keep away from enemy altogether)
Rider
Brute (all about being tough and hitting hard)
Getting rid of them would be a bad idea. PF shouldn't take things away.
I agree. I suppose getting rid of them might harm backward compatibility as well and make the job of converting old 3.5 characters harder.
For me, it's keeping the feel of the Ranger class in the combat styles. Out of all the suggestions, the new one that seems to fit best to me is skirmish, but then again what do I know!
Chobbly
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3.5 combat styles provided a single feat at the specified level and allowed the ranger to ignore the prerequisites.
In Alpha 3 combat styles were changed to combat style feats slots.
These let him choose from a list of 2 to 4 feats from different feat trees. The ranger can ignore the prerequisites.
My concern is the bypassing of the natural progression within the feat trees.
As far as I understand, a feat tree and the prerequisites that link the feats in the tree are based on the assumption that access to the higher-level techniques depends on actual training in the lower techniques. What the combat style removed was the ability score requirement. It did not remove completely the lower-level feat requirement.
This assumption was fully respected in the 3.5 TWF combat style:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
This assumption was respected a bit more loosely in the 3.5 archery combat style, as the "precise targeting" tree was a side branch of the Point Blank Shot tree.
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Improved Precise Shot
Now, if I read the rule correctly, the ranger can pick and mix to have Double Slice, Weapon Swap and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
I'm not thrilled by the dilution of the focus and of the assumption I described above.
Greatly inspired by the suggestions above, I'd like to suggest returning to the 3.5 combat style progressions and add focused progression paths for weapon-type related feats:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Careful Targeting
Exact Targeting
Pinpoint Targeting
3. Deft Shield
Shield Slam
Shield Master
4.Two-Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Two-Weapon Rend
5. Overhand Chop
Backswing
Devastating Blow
etc.
what do I know!
How would I know?
I don't know!what do I know!How would I know?
Does anybody know?
No one knows...Does anybody know?I don't know!what do I know!How would I know?
Knows what? No one knows whether anybody knows it, or no one knows?
This is making me crazy!!!!!
This is making me crazy!!!!!
No, it is not. No, it is not. Everything's alright. Serenety now. Serenety now. Serenety now.
Aragorn's a damn power gamer, that's what he is. He made a human to get the bonus feat, but then added in some crazy backstory to get half-elf benefits, too. I bet he has 4 levels of fighter in addition to his ranger, just to get extra bonus feats and weapon specialisation.
;-)
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Aragorn's a damn power gamer, that's what he is. He made a human to get the bonus feat, but then added in some crazy backstory to get half-elf benefits, too. I bet he has 4 levels of fighter in addition to his ranger, just to get extra bonus feats and weapon specialisation.
That's a T-shirtable quote, KaeYoss.
You wouldn't believe what DMs let players get away with these days! Shocking!
By sword and board I do hope you mean sword and shield. That would work as well as Two Handed Weapon style. I always imagined the woodsman in little red riding hood as using a weaponized logger's axe which in D&D terms is a greataxe. So a ranger style where the ranger finds a huge weapon and then sneaks up on the enemy for carnage a go-go.
I think there were new combat styles in an issue of Dragon but I don't remember the number. I expect that more options will be available in future releases so I'm okay with only the two in the hardcover, although a few more would be nice.
They already support Sword and Board style with the addition of Deft Shield to the ranger TWF path. In fact, I don't think that there's a reason NOT to take Deft Shield from the TWF path.
Wouldn´t it be posssible to add some more combat styles, like "Sword and Board", "Two-Handed Weapons" and the like?
I think this is a good idea. 3.5 needs more variant abilities to break the stereotypes and keep the game fresh.
I think Backward Compatibility went out the window with adding Favored Terrain and the other abilities.
However, if you think adding on a bunch of different stuff as long as the option for the original abilities is still around is okay, then it won't matter HOW they can get TWF and Ranged combat feats, as long as they DO get them.
Which means a Feat pool can still work with backward compatibility. Old NPCs will not need to lose TWF or Ranged stuff that may have been prerequisites for other things, and only need to tack on a few extra abilities.
But then others can decide to build their Ranger however they want, even to the exclusion of either TWF or Ranged.
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I wouldn't mind more combat styles either. Part that bothers me is Drizzt shouldn't even have Two Weapon fighting as a ranger because his ranger training came long after his fighter training (and he learned two weapon fighting from day 1.)
There are two other noteworthy Rangers that don't fall into the Two Weapon Fighting style or Archer model...
Florin Falconhand from Forgotten Realms.
Tanis Half-Elven from Dragonlance.
That said I'd give them a Two Handed Weapon style, a Single Weapon style, and a Mounted Combat style. Anything else is just a poor mans version of fighter or monk.
From Legend & Lairs series, Wildscape by Fantasy Flight Games:
Two-handed fighting
Spear-fighter
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I wholeheartedly endorse the addition of more combat styles for the ranger. There are so many great fantasy tropes that the ranger class fits but don't work mechanically inside the rules as written:
Cavalry (already well documented and essential given the Ranger's terrain focus and natural connection)
Duelist (Attack of Opportunity reducing feats to allow for more mobility, 3 Musketeer type)
Hoplite (Shield and Longspear together as culmination of combat style, allowing for reach and close up use while retaining shield bonus, Theseus was surely a ranger of this style)
Improvised Weapon User (the warrior who doesn't even need a weapon is a classic)
In the alternative, dispensing of the whole combat style and simply giving an additional bonus for combat feats the ranger takes when using those feats against a favored enemy could allow for the focus on weapons/opponents to play out as well. That way, the 'combat style' isn't a straightjacket and the character can apply his combat training (feats) to his favored enemies with even greater effect.
Whirlwind Attack doesn't fit for a skirmisher, though, because it's the antithesis of hit-and-run tactics. It's a full attack action, which isn't going to get you into combat and then out again. Why Spring Attack is a prereq for the feat is beyond me, but I don't think that should be the Ranger's combat style capstone.
I think that Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, and Combat Tactician from the PHB2 would work better then Whirlwind Attack.
Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz let you Spring Attack multiple foes and Combat Tactician saysYou can designate one specific foe as the target of
this feat as a free action. If neither you nor the target threatens
each other at the start of your turn, you gain a +2 bonus on
melee damage against that target during your turn.
I'm going to be working on combat styles along this vein for my homebrew. I'm glad I saw this thread!
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Here's where I often draw my divergent inspiration:
Dragon Magazine, Issue No. 326, p.97:
Beast-Wrestling Style: Some rangers eschew weapons and fight with their bare hands. Unlike the graceful style of the monk, the beast wrestler relies on his brute strength to subdue his foes. . . .
Combat Style (2nd): Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Combat Style (6th): Improved Grapple
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Stunning Fist
Mounted-Combat Style: With their special rapport with animals, rangers readily take to riding. A mounted ranger can use her mount in combat, especially when she utilizes the mounted combat style. . . .
Combat Style (2nd): Ride-by Attack
Improved Combat Style (6th): Spirited Charge
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Trample
Piscator Style: Wielding a net in one hand and a melee weapon (typically a trident) in the other, a ranger trained in the piscator style attempts to entangle or trip his foes before striking in melee. . . .
Combat Style (2nd): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net)
Improved Combat Style (6th): Improved Trip
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Improved Critical
Strong-Arm Style: The ranger using the strong-arm style wades into battle wielding the largest weapon she can. She relies on strength and the weight of steel to break through her opponent's defenses. . . .
Combat Style (2nd): Power Attack
Improved Combat Style (6th): Improved Sunder
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Great Cleave
Throwing Style: The bow isn't the only ranged weapon favored by rangers; halflings have developed their own ranged combat style that employs their favorite ranged weapons - those they can throw. This style has found favor with some nomadic humans and barbaric humanoids. . . .
Combat Style (2nd): Quick Draw
Improved Combat Style (6th): Point Blank Shot
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Far Shot