Yes please.
Add in my vote too.
[off-topic]
Well, at least we know Mikie *saw* this thread!
;D
Contributor
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[off-topic]Well, at least we know Mikie *saw* this thread!
;D
It's true.
I have no control over the RPG, so you'll need to get Jason to see this thread. ;)
Also, keep in mind that the weapon charts as is are pretty packed. I'm not sure how we'd fit in two more columns, but that's for Jason to worry about. Not me. ;D
Yes please, I agree completely.
In fact, could this also be done for armor too?
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I have no control over the RPG, so you'll need to get Jason to see this thread. ;)
Any chance you can lean over his rather busy desk and say "hey, have you noticed this thread wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean?"
Also, keep in mind that the weapon charts as is are pretty packed. I'm not sure how we'd fit in two more columns, but that's for Jason to worry about. Not me. ;D
Ok when I look at your setup compared to the PHB yes I see that yours has a lot less free space, that being said, this is a real issue for me, I'd say it is one of the most frustrating components to being a player or DM, when DMing because I then have to go looking it up and making judgement calls (my players love using sunder), and as a player because half the time the DM has some arbitrary number in mind that doesn't seem right.
I'm for it also. I actualy had the same problem last saturday!
Oh god yes, that would make life soooo much easier! Count my vote for this! For armor too!
And while we're at it, how about putting the information on what various metal types (adamntium, mithril, etc.) do to armor and weapons somewhere near the armor and weapons tables? And not just in the DMG?
I agree with this idea. Its time has come.
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I would favor this.
If you want to cut something, cut out the small weapon damage.
Since small characters probably make up about 1/5 of all characters (or less) and spells like Enlarge person are used, the information on a large version is more useful anyway, but with a simple chart of weapon progressions (forward and backward) it isn't necessary.
So, cut the small weapon damage from the chart to make room for useful information. That would be swell.
Second DeadDM's recommendation. A single chart somewhere else with medium vs. small vs. huge damage changes would be sufficient for people who can't remember that d6 -> d4. Hardnesses and break DCs are much harder to remember.
and we are up to 44, cmon six more and we're halfway there.
There are only 100 people interested in Pathfinder? And they're still bothering with it?
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and we are up to 44, cmon six more and we're halfway there.There are only 100 people interested in Pathfinder? And they're still bothering with it?
Ha ha *rolls eyes*
What I set a goal of making it like a 100 signature petition, do petitioners stop asking for signatures when they reach their # no they keep trying to get more, but I'm trying to keep up excitement and having a stated goal to reach helps to do that... So there mister sarcastic doody head :P
So there mister sarcastic doody head :P
"I'm sure we can discuss this like calm, rational adults. Isn't that right, Mr. Poopy-Pants?"
I want to cast my vote on this for putting it in both the weapon's and armor chart.
That would be sweet.
Like candy...mmmmmmmm candy
Sorry I meant yes we can Mr. McDoody
You've got it all wrong, I changed my name to McLovin'.
Creative Director
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Jason has indeed seen this thread. I talked to him a bit about it yesterday, and while both of us agree that it's a good idea... the fact of the matter is that the weapons table charts are already pretty packed solid and a little tough to fit on a single page as it is. Adding two or so more columns to the table might be enough to cram everything so close together so that it becomes too hard to read.
In addition, putting the weapon's hp and Hardness on those charts gives a strange "weight" to those numbers, and would imply that all PCs would need to track exact hit point totals for each of their weapons. And why stop there? What about armor? Equipment? And furthermore... what about the GM? Does he have to list how many hit points his NPCs' gear has? Obviously, this is taking things all a little far and over the top, but the point is that I'm not sure that inflating the "implied importance" of the fact that all weapons have hit points and hardness is a good move. It certainly doesn't make the game more fun to have to keep track of all those extra hit points, does it?
In fact, I'd LOVE to see the PF RPG ditch the concept of item hit points alltogether, and go wholly into a condition-based tracking, with weapons having a normal/broken/destroyed setup or something like that. I know that there's a "broken" quality in the alpha; at least, there was at one point (I honestly haven't had the time to actually look through much of the current rules, what with trying to get everything ELSE done on time for Gen Con).
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Okay a condition based track for weapons and armor would be fine, but I honestly have a worry about backwards compatability with it (rust cube which does damage to hp), and as it stands the "broken" quality hits if a weapon with 30 hp has taken 1 hp in damage, which as of right now is a little rediculous, it's like a fighter being fatigued after one damage, and since this is the last we see of revision till beta I'm worried. Granted I have every faith in the bull man, still it seems overcomplicated to create a condition chart when the hp system is allready in place. Thank you sooo much for weighing in on it though. I can't wait to see the changes in BETA. Although I'll admit that getting shot down on an idea that almost everyone i've ever talked to thinks is a good idea stings a little :)
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In addition, putting the weapon's hp and Hardness on those charts gives a strange "weight" to those numbers, and would imply that all PCs would need to track exact hit point totals for each of their weapons. And why stop there? What about armor? Equipment? And furthermore... what about the GM? Does he have to list how many hit points his NPCs' gear has? Obviously, this is taking things all a little far and over the top, but the point is that I'm not sure that inflating the "implied importance" of the fact that all weapons have hit points and hardness is a good move. It certainly doesn't make the game more fun to have to keep track of all those extra hit points, does it?
Honestly in most of my games, yes, yes it does. Maybe it's that every time I've DMed I've had a sunderer, but I wind up dealing with the mechanic a lot, now if it took a CMB and beating it by certain amount determined what condition was imparted it would require checking the book just as often, or if beating it once took it to condition x and defeating it again imparted condition y then destroyed the bookwork would be gone, but so would some of the life of sundering since now you know you need exactly x checks to destroy an item and theres never a chance of a one shot break.
Jason has indeed seen this thread. I talked to him a bit about it yesterday, and while both of us agree that it's a good idea... the fact of the matter is that the weapons table charts are already pretty packed solid and a little tough to fit on a single page as it is. Adding two or so more columns to the table might be enough to cram everything so close together so that it becomes too hard to read.
In addition, putting the weapon's hp and Hardness on those charts gives a strange "weight" to those numbers, and would imply that all PCs would need to track exact hit point totals for each of their weapons. And why stop there? What about armor? Equipment? And furthermore... what about the GM? Does he have to list how many hit points his NPCs' gear has? Obviously, this is taking things all a little far and over the top, but the point is that I'm not sure that inflating the "implied importance" of the fact that all weapons have hit points and hardness is a good move. It certainly doesn't make the game more fun to have to keep track of all those extra hit points, does it?
In fact, I'd LOVE to see the PF RPG ditch the concept of item hit points alltogether, and go wholly into a condition-based tracking, with weapons having a normal/broken/destroyed setup or something like that. I know that there's a "broken" quality in the alpha; at least, there was at one point (I honestly haven't had the time to actually look through much of the current rules, what with trying to get everything ELSE done on time for Gen Con).
Backwards compatibility is what comes up for me when going with normal/damaged/destroyed conditional modifiers. I'm totally confident you folks will think of a way to make something like that be more than a mask for number of item hps lost. So if you can do it, I agree, much more elegant than tracking hardness/hp.
That said, if space is the issue, add a table. Make a second table that repeats all the weapons with hp, hardness, etc. Put the sidebar for affects of special materials (adamantine, etc.) on the same page.
I hear what you're saying about not wanting to make these qualities super important, but couldn't the same thing be said about encumbrance? After all, the weight of the weapon is on the chart. In my games, we encounter sundering and breaking far more than we ever pay attention to encumbrance. I don't think I'm alone in that, as sundering and breaking items are combat -- or at least active -- things that PCs do, while encumbrance is something that happens more passively.
Hmm...could have said that with less words. Like, "I'd much rather have the hardness and hp than the weight of the weapon."
Just my respectful disagreement. Oh, and I'll take a smaller font size and peering at the table if I had to, in order to get the hardness hp info. Of course, that may just be me.
Armor not needed unless you can sunder armor.
Add each plus of magic should add some standard number to hardness and hp.
You know, thinking about this, this is really all about the sunder mechanic, isn't it? And the breaking down doors or smashing magic vases mechanics. Maybe those are the mechanics that need revisiting, instead of changing the tables...
My random noodle is now noodled out. Going to take a nap now.
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"I'd much rather have the hardness and hp than the weight of the weapon."
Just my respectful disagreement. Oh, and I'll take a smaller font size and peering at the table if I had to, in order to get the hardness hp info. Of course, that may just be me.
Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact I didn't, congrats Lou.
Just pitching my support (with my first post) for the Hardness and HP of weapons. With Pathfinder intending to utilise all that 3.x product out their backwards compatibility is very important. If a samll font is called for then fine, otherwise can't the table extend over two pages?
Cheers
Mark
I'm all for it. Put me in for a yes vote. It should be there for players to see when they choose a item. The rapier should take serious damage from a loud scream though.
All right!
This is really an inspired idea. Kudos to the OP!
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Alright already.. enough with the counting. :-)
I'll see what I can do.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well thank you so much Jason, I really appreciate the say so and thank you for making me laugh, but I am afraid that I must defy you and continue counting for in truth I am...
Dun Dun Dun
The Count from Sesame Street
Muah ha ha
1
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4
It will never stop.
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To Jason & James: Okay, I support whatever decision you make on this one - especially in light of James' "unnecessary weight" argument and format issue reasoning.
I'm a big supporter of backward compatibility, so a do-nothing approach is fine for this one, or even the condition approach if it is very simple. I'd like to see more weapons getting smashed up more often.
In the end, the format, readability and usability of PRPG is pretty important to me, whether or not weapons charts are enhanced.
I guess the trouble with most guides is that they're not bulleted enough for ease of reading and finding information. I'd really like to see a cleaner appearance, less paragraphs of prose and more bulleted lists and highlighted and bold areas that draw the reader's eye to the important stuff.
As an instructional designer myself, I know this stuff is pretty important to a lot of people, but something that traditionally has not been done.
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The Count from Sesame Street
Muah ha ha1
2
3
4
It will never stop.
I do not have anything genuinely productive to add. So I give you The count.
-Tarlane