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What part of "legal equality and fair media presentation" struck you as a personal command to "delight in [my] sexual preference"?
Nurturance: Assumes that gay/lesbian people are indispensable in our society. People on this level view lesbians/gays with genuine affection and delight, and are willing to be their allies and advocates.
I don't view gays/lesbians with delight, sorry.
Take comfort in the fact that I don't view heterosexuals with delight, either.
So as to keep this vaguely on topic, something you ignored....
That's how I view them in Golarion, too. Their sexual orientation doesn't affect my like or dislike of them.
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So with Shelyn almost confirmed as being a big deal in Vudra, considering her servitors, one has to wonder if a Kama Sutra-analogue might be heavily influenced by her and her allies. Possibly being more equal, inclusive, and safer to boot.
Which then leads to some wondering about how that book combined with Vudra's(and Jalmeray by extension) stratified caste system might lead to different mindsets concerning romance and sexuality compared to the Inner Sea, neighboring Casmaron(the probable birthplace of the Iridian Fold?), and RL India. If such a book were given such importance, that is.
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Ancient or Classical India was less gender caste-stratified (or properly, jati-stratified - varna or caste is a pretty much modern invention), particularly when the Kama Sutra was written, than medieval or modern India. If I were working on Vudra, I'd have some significant variation in caste structure, from free and easy (CG) to rigid and probably LE.
But if we assume that Vudra is like Jalmeray (which is fairly stratified), keep in mind that Hindu law (as a parallel) understood a wide variety of legal marriages and relationships, and while the higher castes would use arranged marriage (and Shelyn would be invoked to create marital understanding and love - post-wedding), as would certain jatis that followed strict exogamy or endogamic rules, there should be still room for love-matches and star-crossed lovers in Vudra, if it reflects any amount of South Asian folklore and pop culture.
Arranged marriages made by means of divinations - as they are in India today - would be fairly accurate in Vudra, since divination magic is more reliable in Golarion. So not so bad...
Also, Apsaras (or "dapsaras") are pretty much the poster children of dangerous infatuations and rebirth-reunions, so those elements should go with them in Vudra.
So I personally hope the entanglements of both friendship-love (the goal of arranged marriages in India) and romantic-love (the theme of many many stories) are both present in Vudra. I think Shelyn would be OK with both.
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So with Shelyn almost confirmed as being a big deal in Vudra, considering her servitors, one has to wonder if a Kama Sutra-analogue might be heavily influenced by her and her allies. Possibly being more equal, inclusive, and safer to boot.
Which then leads to some wondering about how that book combined with Vudra's(and Jalmeray by extension) stratified caste system might lead to different mindsets concerning romance and sexuality compared to the Inner Sea, neighboring Casmaron(the probable birthplace of the Iridian Fold?), and RL India. If such a book were given such importance, that is.
edit-
Ancient or Classical India was less gender caste-stratified (or properly, jati-stratified - varna or caste is a pretty much modern invention), particularly when the Kama Sutra was written, than medieval or modern India. If I were working on Vudra, I'd have some significant variation in caste structure, from free and easy (CG) to rigid and probably LE.
But if we assume that Vudra is like Jalmeray (which is fairly stratified), keep in mind that Hindu law (as a parallel) understood a wide variety of legal marriages and relationships, and while the higher castes would use arranged marriage (and Shelyn would be invoked to create marital understanding and love - post-wedding), as would certain jatis that followed strict exogamy or endogamic rules, there should be still room for love-matches and star-crossed lovers in Vudra, if it reflects any amount of South Asian folklore and pop culture.
Arranged marriages made by means of divinations - as they are in India today - would be fairly accurate in Vudra, since divination magic is more reliable in Golarion. So not so bad...
Also, Apsaras (or "dapsaras") are pretty much the poster children of dangerous infatuations and rebirth-reunions, so those elements should go with them in Vudra.
So I...
who was the demigoddes of tragedic love that had a falling out with shelyn? i would think she might have a decent following as well there.
My spologies for getting wildly off-topic.
Just to point out that the Riddle Game has a long and historic place in roleplaying games and settings such as Golarion. Now I just need to bring a sphinx in to stump the party. "I think the word would be tolerance, but that means hatred, so I am not sure."
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But if we assume that Vudra is like Jalmeray (which is fairly stratified), keep in mind that Hindu law (as a parallel) understood a wide variety of legal marriages and relationships, and while the higher castes would use arranged marriage (and Shelyn would be invoked to create marital understanding and love - post-wedding), as would certain jatis that followed strict exogamy or endogamic rules, there should be still room for love-matches and star-crossed lovers in Vudra, if it reflects any amount of South Asian folklore and pop culture.
Arranged marriages made by means of divinations - as they are in India today - would be fairly accurate in Vudra, since divination magic is more reliable in Golarion. So not so bad...
With so many gods, perhaps there could be a number of less benevolent gods with an interest in those marriage divinations, to preserve those kinds of stories? It would also keep Lymnieris' followers busy, what with helping people trapped in unhappy arranged marriages being big on their "to do" list. :)
Now who to fit that bill for "negative marriage god"...
Also, Apsaras (or "dapsaras") are pretty much the poster children of dangerous infatuations and rebirth-reunions, so those elements should go with them in Vudra.
So I...
Now this has me wondering what other gods and Empyreal Lords they might be affiliated with and in what capacity. :)
who was the demigoddes of tragedic love that had a falling out with shelyn? i would think she might have a decent following as well there.
Oh God, Naderi, the goddess of tragic romance and suicide.
Now there's a strong candidate for a negative "escape from unwanted marriage" deity. Now I can see her cult and Lymnieris' clashing over how to help the same people...
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And that Terre D’Ange reference earlier actually has me wanting to come up with a culture built entirely around the influence of certain Empyreal Lords rather than any of the Big 20 gods. Maybe a couple of neighboring countries with different Empyreal influence, just to have some diversity and potential culture clashes.
In 'Boar and Rabbit' and 'The Redemption Engine', Sutter has a gay male couple as central characters. I'm not widely familiar with the entire body of Pathfinder/D&D fiction by a long shot, but is this a first?
Other than the rogue in City of the Fallen Sky, I cannot recall any other gay male characters.
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In 'Boar and Rabbit' and 'The Redemption Engine', Sutter has a gay male couple as central characters. I'm not widely familiar with the entire body of Pathfinder/D&D fiction by a long shot, but is this a first?
Other than the rogue in City of the Fallen Sky, I cannot recall any other gay male characters.
I think it's a first in Pathfinder Tales novels anyway (again, excepting the Rogue mentioned). I'm not recalling anything in the short fiction either, but I might easily be forgetting something.
No idea on previous D&D fiction, I was never a big reader of it before Pathfinder Tales (which are almost always very good).
EDIT: It's certainly not a first in Pathfinder...but might be in the fiction specifically. Or at least the novel line.
Take the following quote:
My overall point being, even if you think you have valid scientific reasons for calling an imaginary race "hermaphrodites", it's still a dehumanizing and insulting word for real-world intersex people.Replace "hermaphrodites" with "Chinese" and "intersex" with "Japanese" and it reads like something straight from the mind of a bigot. I would like to think that intersex people are sufficiently intelligent individuals that they would not be offended by the proper use of the word and I find the implications that they are assumed to be so small minded as to be offended by a biological term to be disturbing.I suppose, but given how “intersex” seems to work in some contexts, as an umbrella term (As an aside, what definition do we want to use?), I wonder if a better analogy might be to replace “hermaphrodite” with “[racially-charged epithet]” – especially one referring to physical features – and “intersex” with “Asian.”
I don’t think anyone here means to demonize the word “hermaphrodite.” It has its uses, but the problem is that it has very often been misapplied outside of more specialized biological contexts, and in most games, I don’t think there’s usually a clear marker when one’s shifting to a biological register. When a casual reader sees “hermaphrodite” in their game material, how are they most likely to interpret it, what is the popular connotation? I doubt it’s necessarily a nuanced biological sense, and it doesn’t seem unduly onerous or problematic to me to find another way of phrasing it to avoid causing a hypothetical player grief, but YMMV, as they say.
Eh... I think it is a matter of personal perspective... and thus it is a personal choice to be offended or not. I personally associate the word "hermaphrodite" with the myth of Hermaphroditus (who was the child of Hermes and Aphrodite and whose name gave rise to the word "hermaphrodite" in the first place). So, to me, the word simply is a direct reference to a Greek god. There is absolutely nothing about the word that has an element of offense to me. So, someone who was offended by imaginary people who happen to be hermaphrodites doesn't look any different to me than someone who was offended by imaginary people who happen to be black. How is that for a "physical feature?" :-P
On the other hand, I do have a couple of issues with the word "intersex." The first being the definition of the word as listed in my dictionary. I have an intense dislike of the label "abnormal." Were I to play a hermaphroditic character, that state would most certainly be "normal" for him/her.
The second issue I have with the word "intersex" is that (as one who has been a target for bullies as far back as I can remember... simply because I have Asperger's Syndrome), it is very obvious to me what a bully could (and likely would) twist the word into. (Admittedly, I would not have a problem with a character being called an "insect" if it was of a race that was actually insectoid in nature.)
As I have a tendency to identify any character I play as an extension of myself, I would object very strongly to having a hermaphroditic character I was playing labeled as an "intersex." Which, of course, is why I offered up an alternative in my earlier posts.
My take on this is that, if someone else wanted their character called an "intersex," then that is their choice. I don't really care what words other people use to describe/define their characters. Just let me have my choice of words to define/describe my character(s). (In fact, this conversation has actually made me want to make a hermaphroditic character... I have even gone so far as to obtain/modify artwork to represent the character... I just need to name it and choose a class. Many years ago, in fact, I toyed with a story idea about a hermaphrodite, and figure I could use what I can remember of that story for a background.)
Then too:
To bring it back to Golarion, for species in which sex is not usually organized by Hermeses and Aphrodites, referring to hermaphroditism rather than finding a more precise word in a setting which might allow for a more fantastical play of language strikes me as odd, and for people like tieflings who are more or less human we already have a more general word to which the appropriate nuance might be added as needed. Trying to get back on topic, and add a bit of levity to the discussion. I hope I'm not coming across as pointlessly and tactlessly argumentative.
I am not sure that there is a more precise word. If you think that "intersex" is such a word, well, the definitions given by the dictionary (at least the one I have) disagree.
Intersexed is a deliberately imprecise word, especially because it often refers to biology that is recalcitrant to easy classification.
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Oh God, Naderi, the goddess of tragic romance and suicide.
Now there's a strong candidate for a negative "escape from unwanted marriage" deity. Now I can see her cult and Lymnieris' clashing over how to help the same people...
Hmm. The name Naderi even sounds like Sanskrit. Keeping in mind the afterlife and rebirth, perhaps she is worshipped by lovers separated by arranged marriages, with the idea that suicide > reunion, even as lesser beings.
(In South Asian legend, partners are reborn again and again in proximity, but do not always end up married. If they aren't - they will probably fall in love anyway).
It is true that prophecies on a grander scale have been failing since the death of Aroden.
What if... the marriage divinations of Vudra have also been going wrong since then. The golden age of going to the priestess for the name of your bride/groom/partner and finding a good match has fallen apart, though the tradition still stands among conservative families. But the truth is, the auguries are faked.
This could be a major cause of social disorder and adventures...
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I really wouldn't say hermaphrodite is offensive as in the context of a magical world like Golarion since it would be the appropriate definition, as opposed to the real world where no actual human hermaphrodites exist. I would assume part of a magical hermaphroditic race is that they have true primary sexual characteristics of both genders instead of being genetically one gender or the other with differently developed genitalia.
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I really wouldn't say hermaphrodite is offensive as in the context of a magical world like Golarion since it would be the appropriate definition, as opposed to the real world where no actual human hermaphrodites exist. I would assume part of a magical hermaphroditic race is that they have true primary sexual characteristics of both genders instead of being genetically one gender or the other with differently developed genitalia.
No actual human hermaphrodites exist? Since when?
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Acceptance: Still implies that there is something to accept; the existing climate of discrimination is ignored. Characterized by such statements as "You're not lesbian to me, you're a person." or "What you do in bed is your own business." or "That's fine with me as long as you don't flaunt it."
Um...no. The funny thing is, this is pretty much how I view everyone. Why would I view anyone else any differently? That would be prejudice. If I look at my heteosexual friend and see them as a person instead of a heterosexual, why can I not do the same for my homosexual friend? That's bigotry plain and true.
Same with the commentary. I mean seriously, most of the time I'm perfectly happy to talk about video games rather than who was going down on who last night. Don't flaunt it dude/dudette. If I want to know how your bed bonanza went, I'll ask. :P
Positive attitude levels:
Support: People at this level may be uncomfortable themselves, but they are aware of the homophobic climate and the irrational unfairness, and work to safeguard the rights of lesbians and gays.
Admiration: It is acknowledged that being lesbian/gay in our society takes strength. People at this level are willing to truly examine their homophobic attitudes, values, and behaviors.
Appreciation: The diversity of people is considered valuable and lesbians/gays are seen as a valid part of that diversity. People on this level are willing to combat...
And now I've got a problem. You say that acceptance is a form of bigotry (maybe apathy would be a better stance?), then turn around and note that the only positive things is if you're actively supporting, admiring, or appreciating them for their sexuality...which is nonsense. That's not equality. That's not real.
Seriously, I don't go around supporting, admiring, and appreciating my heterosexual friends for being heterosexual. Maybe I'm a bigot against heterosexual people?
Maybe I've been so wrong to actually treat my homosexual / transgendered NPCs as if they were normal people. Apparently, I should have been framing Victoria as a heroine in need of support from the PCs for being transgendered rather than the badass vampire that she was who butted heads with the party repeatedly (and somehow still managed to end up buddies with them in the end O_o), or admiring the same-sex templar lovers traveling with the party (who are currently in a love-triangle with the party's Paladin 'cause at least one of them is bisexual and has feelings for two people).
Thanks so much for opening my eyes to what an intolerant bigot I am for seeing people as people, rather than sexualities. Thanks. Now the healing can begin.
If I look at my heteosexual friend and see them as a person instead of a heterosexual, why can I not do the same for my homosexual friend? That's bigotry plain and true.
Ah, the Bill O'Reilly colorblind routine.
And now I've got a problem.
Yes, several.
You say that acceptance is a form of bigotry (maybe apathy would be a better stance?),
Dr. Riddle and her research... (no ad hominems, thanks)
As for apathy, you're again missing the point of civilized society. In civilized society, a person appreciates other people for their contributions.
then turn around and note that the only positive things is if you're actively supporting, admiring, or appreciating them for their sexuality...which is nonsense.
It's how civilization is supposed to function. People come together to form societies because they rely upon others' work, specialization, uniqueness, et cetera. A healthy attitude toward others is appreciation, support, and so on. An unhealthy attitude is a negative one.
That's not equality. That's not real.
If you suffer from narcissism, then I suppose it's difficult to appreciate others.
Seriously, I don't go around supporting, admiring, and appreciating my heterosexual friends for being heterosexual. Maybe I'm a bigot against heterosexual people?...
That's a cute claim, but it's not true. A person's sexuality is part of who the person is. It is not a vast secret, nor should it be. You may not have realized it yet, but heterosexual and homosexual people contribute different positive things to society. Why? Because they are not the same.
As for the stuff about transgenderism, intersexedness, hermaphroditism, and so on... those things really aren't the same as heterosexuality or homosexuality.
I'd just like to point that out. If the topic were "alternate sexualities in Golarion" then it would be more on-topic. In fact, transgenderism has more in common with heterosexuality than it does with homosexuality because a homosexual likes the sex of their body so much that they may even be quite turned on by their own body. That's definitely the opposite of a transgendered person.
But, alternate sexualities are interesting. One that is often overlooked is the estimated 1% of people who have no sex drive at all. People call this "asexuality" although I am not a fan of the term because asexual creates can reproduce with themselves. Since humans are dimorphic I suppose I can see the term making sense, but it seems odd. I think nonsexual is better, personally.
One of my hypotheses is that nonsexual people are responsible, in part at least, for a lot of the religious prohibitions regarding sexual appetite. If someone has no sex drive it's not as difficult to look negatively upon what seems like an unhealthy appetite, particularly given all the fighting, jealousy, insecurity, and such that can accompany it. Creating celibacy regimes and so on seems par for the course for someone who is nonsexual.
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I can appreciate many things about a person, but admiring someone because they have some kind of identifiable sexuality?
I can admire how someone copes with adversity, and that includes the adversity that comes with being non-straight in our society. But I can't admire the mere fact of someone's sexuality. It not something they achieved, not something they chose, not something to either admire or despise about someone.
The only time I care about a person's sexuality is if I fancy her. : /
The only time I care about a person's sexuality is if I fancy her. : /
That's too reductionist. Sexuality is more than just whether or not you want to sleep with someone.
I can admire how someone copes with adversity, and that includes the adversity that comes with being non-straight in our society. But I can't admire the mere fact of someone's sexuality.
That seems contradictory. The adversity is due to the person's sexuality. You said you can admire their coping with it and then said you can't admire them for their sexuality.
Even without there being anti-gay animus, the mere fact that gay people are gay makes their gayness worth appreciation because it adds something extra to society. The same thing goes for heterosexuality. If 95% of people were gay, the 4% who are heterosexual (if there are 1% nonsexuals) still add something. It's elementary logic.
It was proven in 1956 by Dr. Hooker that homosexuality isn't a disorder. That means it's not a problem. Since it's not a negative thing that means, since it's different, it adds something to culture. "Celebrate diversity" isn't just a meaningless bit of PC rhetoric. It actually matters.
Look at monocultures like fields of corn versus a rainforest. Both have their uses, but they are certainly not the same, nor can fields of corn replace diversity (even though some people think ripping up rainforest to plant palm trees is intelligent). The uniqueness that rainforest species like the cocoa plant, the vanilla plant, the coffee plant, the tea plant, and medicinal extracts, offer are important.
So many people don't fully take the importance of diversity into account, with things like bans on sperm donation at banks that affect people with orange hair. I happen to think orange hair is beautiful, the most beautiful color. But, due to hyper-conformity, orange-haired babies are unwanted to the point where sperm banks have blocked donations from orange-haired people. Sometimes I feel like I'm living with the wrong species.
It's how civilization is supposed to function. People come together to form societies because they rely upon others' work, specialization, uniqueness, et cetera. A healthy attitude toward others is appreciation, support, and so on. An unhealthy attitude is a negative one.
Says who? I mean, I don't think most historical and current civilizations fit those descriptions.
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That's too reductionist. Sexuality is more than just whether or not you want to sleep with someone.
It is. That's still the only time a lot of people care about it.
That seems contradictory. The adversity is due to the person's sexuality. You said you can admire their coping with it and then said you can't admire them for their sexuality.
Uh...yes you can. Easily. Admiring people for enduring adversity does not inherently mean you admire the trait that caused the adversity. For example, let's say someone is blind, or a paraplegic, you can easily admire their ability to endure adversity without admiring the state of being blind or paraplegic. Now, I'm not trying to equate being gay with being disabled [being gay's not an inherently bad thing to be (though cultural mores can make it unpleasant)...while being disabled generally is], but the principle still applies. For another example, let's say someone is of a persecuted religious minority, it's very possible to admire their endurance of adversity without caring about the religion one way or the other.
It's possible to admire a trait in it's own right, without caring where it comes from, and thus admire endurance regardless of whether it's the result of poverty, racism, homophobia, religious prejudice, or something else entirely, without inherently admiring the underlying cause.
Even without there being anti-gay animus, the mere fact that gay people are gay makes their gayness worth appreciation because it adds something extra to society. The same thing goes for heterosexuality. If 95% of people were gay, the 4% who are heterosexual (if there are 1% nonsexuals) still add something. It's elementary logic.
Technically true, but it might easily not be something you care about having added. It's entirely possible to think being gay is no more or less important or special than being straight, and shouldn't be treated any differently. And I don't think that constitutes bigotry. Nor even naivete if you know that the world doesn't treat it like that. Nor indifference if you try to make the world actually work as you believe it should.
It was proven in 1956 by Dr. Hooker that homosexuality isn't a disorder. That means it's not a problem. Since it's not a negative thing that means, since it's different, it adds something to culture. "Celebrate diversity" isn't just a meaningless bit of PC rhetoric. It actually matters.
'Celebrate diversity' is certainly a nice sentiment, but it's not necessary to do so to be unpredjudiced. Simply not caring whether people are gay, straight, or otherwise and judging them based on their individual merits seems sufficient for that, whatever label you want to use for it.
For example, I have no idea where I am on that chart. Diversity's nice, and I'm glad we have it, but that has little or nothing to do with my attitude towards individual people. I certainly don't view random people I meet of any sexuality with 'affection and delight'...and don't have any more (or less) 'affection and delight' for my LGBT friends than my straight ones...at least not based on their sexuality. I certainly try and combat homophobia when I run into it...but saying I have an 'appreciation' for people based purely on their sexuality is rather deeply inaccurate. And so on.
I can see where you're coming from on the 'acceptance' thing, and a different word may be warranted ('support' actually seems okay)...but talking about 'admiration', 'appreciation', or 'nurturance' for any population group as a whole smacks of an entirely different sort of prejudice where you feel one group is better than others. I get that this isn't the intent...but words matter, and those all imply you feel LGBT people are more deserving of those things than non-LGBT people, even ones who've gone through equivalent hardship. And that's a problem, language-wise.
I've met at least a couple of LGBT people I really despised. This had nothing to do with their being LGBT and everything to do with them being terrible people...but the fact remains that I clearly didn't admire or appreciate those particular folks.
Look at monocultures like fields of corn versus a rainforest. Both have their uses, but they are certainly not the same, nor can fields of corn replace diversity (even though some people think ripping up rainforest to plant palm trees is intelligent). The uniqueness that rainforest species like the cocoa plant, the vanilla plant, the coffee plant, the tea plant, and medicinal extracts, offer are important.
Applying ecosystem thinking to cultural groups of humans doesn't really seem useful or appropriate to me...that's just not quite how cultures work. It's more appropriate applied to biological groups, but equating the two can be problematic. I absolutely value cultural diversity...but it's good for a whole different set of reasons than biological diversity (which is also good).
So many people don't fully take the importance of diversity into account, with things like bans on sperm donation at banks that affect people with orange hair. I happen to think orange hair is beautiful, the most beautiful color. But, due to hyper-conformity, orange-haired babies are unwanted to the point where sperm banks have blocked donations from orange-haired people. Sometimes I feel like I'm living with the wrong species.
A good example of biological diversity. And yeah, this is a really dumb and unpleasant attitude on the sperm banks' part.
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Ashiel doesn't really need any help, far from it, but...
If I look at my heteosexual friend and see them as a person instead of a heterosexual, why can I not do the same for my homosexual friend? That's bigotry plain and true.
Ah, the Bill O'Reilly colorblind routine.
And now I've got a problem.
Yes, several.
I wouldn't say that Ashiel has a problem. The problem is the non standard definitions proposed by Dr. Riddle and adopted, apparently, by you. You are essentially using the same words as the rest of us but attaching different, non standard, definitions to them. You don't seem to understand the problem this creates. Namely the lack of communication. I doubt that will change.
You say that acceptance is a form of bigotry (maybe apathy would be a better stance?),
Dr. Riddle and her research... (no ad hominems, thanks)
As for apathy, you're again missing the point of civilized society. In civilized society, a person appreciates other people for their contributions.
And, once again you are attaching a different definition to a standard English word, namely "civilization". Good luck with that.
then turn around and note that the only positive things is if you're actively supporting, admiring, or appreciating them for their sexuality...which is nonsense.
It's how civilization is supposed to function. People come together to form societies because they rely upon others' work, specialization, uniqueness, et cetera. A healthy attitude toward others is appreciation, support, and so on. An unhealthy attitude is a negative one.
Civilization is full of people I have a negative attitude towards. Muggers, thieves, drug dealers, and so on. I find that negativity healthy. Your mileage may vary.
That's not equality. That's not real.
If you suffer from narcissism, then I suppose it's difficult to appreciate others.
Refusing to understand the problems others have with the jargon you're using is more in line with the standard definitions of "narcissism". But then you don't seem to like standard definitions. Making it needlessly difficult to determine your meaning.
Seriously, I don't go around supporting, admiring, and appreciating my heterosexual friends for being heterosexual. Maybe I'm a bigot against heterosexual people?...
That's a cute claim, but it's not true. A person's sexuality is part of who the person is. It is not a vast secret, nor should it be. You may not have realized it yet, but heterosexual and homosexual people contribute different positive things to society. Why? Because they are not the same.
Does everybody you know wear a sign indicating their sexuality? Sometimes you know, sometimes you don't and many times you only think you do. The fact that you think it "is not a vast secret" points to an inadequate grasp of human nature. People are not all open books. In short, often the sexuality of an individual, being unknown to you and subject to misinterpretation, isn't all that useful in your evaluation of the person.
With so many gods, perhaps there could be a number of less benevolent gods with an interest in those marriage divinations, to preserve those kinds of stories? It would also keep Lymnieris' followers busy, what with helping people trapped in unhappy arranged marriages being big on their "to do" list. :)Now who to fit that bill for "negative marriage god"...
I don't see one particular deity fitting that bill, but there are a few who could contain various reactions to that situation. People who want to strike back at their "spouses" would look to Calistria, while people who want to numb themselves with pleasure might well fall in with Urgathoans. The more powerful party in an arranged marriage could be a cultist of Zon-Kuthon, adding all new levels of awful to the situation.
I like to think the reason there are so few LGBT people in pathfinder is because they are smart enough to avoid murderhobos. So I think paizo is discriminating on us straight cisgendered folk by making us seem stupid by comparison and always bringing our problems on other people.
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I like to think the reason there are so few LGBT people in pathfinder is because they are smart enough to avoid murderhobos. So I think paizo is discriminating on us straight cisgendered folk by making us seem stupid by comparison and always bringing our problems on other people.
Wait, what? There are actually quite a few LGBT people in Pathfinder.
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Thanks guys. I appreciate it. I have to admit that sometimes, like with SRS, I feel like this: Key & Peele - Office Homophobia.
I don't understand what the problem with letting people be people is. I don't include different sexualities and such in my games for the novelty of it or to be cute. The characters I've mentioned in this thread have been from my homebrew campaign, and not even from an AP.
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't finish my thought here and just trailed off. It's an odd day for me, so please bear with me. The reason I include these traits in characters is because I believe that it has a lot to do with who they are (and you can ask my players I put way too much thought into the most random of NPCs). They are people, they are treated as people. Sometimes the PCs don't even know anything about these aspects of them until we're just chatting about random characters in the story.
For example, the vampire antagonist (and later friend of the party) Victoria is a transexual. Pre-op, for lack of a better term (pre-magic? I dunno). It's a sort of trait that helps to define a character in the same way that hair color and length, eye color, height, weight, etc.
Victoria doesn't exist in my games as a novelty, but as a person. If I can give a fictional character in a game the right to be a person instead of a trait, I don't see a reason to deny a real living, breathing, thinking being the same right to just be who they are without being a sideshow.
I just don't understand why everyone can't just love each other equally. We only have so much time, and without warning, you can lose someone really fast and then everything changes and all these things seem really petty.
Anyway, good morning to everyone, and I hope you all have a good day.
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I'd just like to point that out. If the topic were "alternate sexualities in Golarion" then it would be more on-topic. In fact, transgenderism has more in common with heterosexuality than it does with homosexuality because a homosexual likes the sex of their body so much that they may even be quite turned on by their own body. That's definitely the opposite of a transgendered person.
I'd tread carefully, SRS, in making those sort of generalizations about trans* people.
For that matter, while I'm not trans* and therefore can't speak to the intersection of desire and having your gender differ from the way society perceives you, your comment is kind of nonsensical in light of gay transmen and lesbian transwomen, who certainly exist. There's a difference between feeling like your body doesn't match up to who you are, and not finding bodies of a particular gender desirable.
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Digital Products Assistant
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I'd just like to point that out. If the topic were "alternate sexualities in Golarion" then it would be more on-topic. In fact, transgenderism has more in common with heterosexuality than it does with homosexuality because a homosexual likes the sex of their body so much that they may even be quite turned on by their own body. That's definitely the opposite of a transgendered person.I'd tread carefully, SRS, in making those sort of generalizations about trans* people.
For that matter, while I'm not trans* and therefore can't speak to the intersection of desire and having your gender differ from the way society perceives you, your comment is kind of nonsensical in light of gay transmen and lesbian transwomen, who certainly exist. There's a difference between feeling like your body doesn't match up to who you are, and not finding bodies of a particular gender desirable.
Worth noting here that your assumptions are very, very different from many people's realities. Many trans people like their bodies just fine, and there are many straight trans people (that is, trans people who are attracted to the gender they were forced to pose as in their youth), so the idea that trans people are inherently repulsed by the sex they were assigned at birth is a pretty long stretch. Hell, I'm a lesbian and I still really like to look at boys.
I can't comment on your theories about assexuals, because I'm not assexual. It seems reasonable to not make sweeping statements about a minority you're not a member of.
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Assistant Software Developer
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As for the stuff about transgenderism, intersexedness, hermaphroditism, and so on... those things really aren't the same as heterosexuality or homosexuality.
We are generally fighting a similar fight. Fact is that we usually get beaten up for being gay. Explaining that to the guy taking swings at you for upsetting his precarious idea of reality is not likely to be very fruitful. And generally speaking, much of this got revived from the Anevia and Irabeth relationship, not just because it is a lesbian relationship(in which one or both parties may be bisexual) but because Anevia is trans.
Worth noting here that your assumptions are very, very different from many people's realities. Many trans people like their bodies just fine, and there are many straight trans people (that is, trans people who are attracted to the gender they were forced to pose as in their youth), so the idea that trans people are inherently repulsed by the sex they were assigned at birth is a pretty long stretch. Hell, I'm a lesbian and I still really like to look at boys.
Most heterosexuals like their bodies enough to be turned on by them to the point of having successful masturbation. But, the point I was trying to make is that, like hetersexuals, a pre-op transgendered person is less turned on by the sex of their body than the bodies of the other sex. That gives them a closer connection to heterosexuality, as heterosexuals prefer the opposite physical sex.
It is only just recently that the DSM was changed to remove transgenderism from the list of disorders. The disorder, as far as I know, was described as being correctable with intervention (surgery and hormones) and was about not being happy with the current physical sex of one's body.
I'd tread carefully, SRS, in making those sort of generalizations about trans* people.
There are a few basic facts that underlie the labels. Heterosexuals, for instance, are heterosexual. Homosexuals are homosexual. The same thing goes for the transgendered. Those aren't stereotyping or generalizations. They are the basic differences that give the terms meaning.
The gist of my post was that those fundamental differences cause people of the different types to add something to culture.