Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I can't see any reason why 'unrealistic ratios' should bother anyone unless they're somehow offended by the presence of the non-black marbles. If it doesn't matter to you if someone's gay or trans or another race, then it shouldn't matter to you if the ratios are 'unrealistic'. If it does matter, then the people being those things matters to you. If all you want to do is play marbles, then reaching into the bag and getting a handful that has a red, yellow, green, blue, purple and black shouldn't bother you in the slightest. And yet it does.


Being bothered by unrealistic things is quite natural, actually. Have you noticed the threads about falling damage? I know you have. They're inescapable. People are bothered by this sort of thing. All you can really say is, "Who cares?"

It helps that this may not actually be unrealistic, though. Our polling standards are pretty flawed and subject to bias. Didn't the ancient Greeks believe all men were bisexual? Maybe the truth is closer to the middle* than we believe and our current culture just makes people uncomfortable with looking into such matters. Who knows? And as long as this uncertainty exists, who cares how demographics are measured in Golarion?

*Oh my f+%@ing GOD someone is going to die for making me use this phrase.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Being bothered by unrealistic things is quite natural, actually. Have you noticed the threads about falling damage? I know you have. They're inescapable. People are bothered by this sort of thing. All you can really say is, "Who cares?"

It helps that this may not actually be unrealistic, though. Our polling standards are pretty flawed and subject to bias. Didn't the ancient Greeks believe all men were bisexual? Maybe the truth is closer to the middle* than we believe and our current culture just makes people uncomfortable with looking into such matters. Who knows? And as long as this uncertainty exists, who cares how demographics are measured in Golarion?

*Oh my f#$%ing GOD someone is going to die for making me use this phrase.

The thing about falling damage is that it actually affects the game. People make decisions about what actions to take based on the fact that falling does damage. The presence of gay people, whether they are NPCs or PCs, doesn't affect the game unless their presence actually bothers you (or makes you happy, in which case it's a positive thing).

How is one supposed to determine what is 'realistic' about a fantasy world, however? The statistics about our world are not going to be relevant. There's been a lot of complaints about video games like Witcher 3 having an all-white cast, to which some people reply "it's historically realistic", and the first people reply, "like the demons?"


"Affects the game"? Story elements affect the game for me. Whether or not it means I mark off different numbers on my character sheet has nothing to do with it. Characters acting inconsistently or laws of physics being defied without explanation affect the game for me. Now, most weirdnesses, like gravity and abnormal levels of diversity, don't bug me so much. I can handwave them (we don't know exact numbers for minorities, maybe these giant vermin have some sort of *mumblemumble*, people have in the past survived ridiculous falls in real life). But you're trying to turn this from an issue of misguided "realism" into an issue of bigotry. Which is just plain oversimplification, and rather unfair to all involved.

Also, yes, like the demons. I'm sorry, but the presence of demons does not mean all historical bets are off. That's nothing but flat-out lazy. Witcher 3 (which, disclaimer, I have never played) is historical fantasy, not a fantasy world, and breaks from historical accuracy therefore have to be justified. Demons are obviously the central conceit of the game, so they're fine. Increased diversity in the middle ages, though, is a really complicated issue—it would imply greater travel between countries and continents, which would in turn imply a wholly different culture. You can't just go changing stuff willy-nilly. Otherwise it's not historical fantasy at all. It'd be like saying, "This is a Victorian noir novel, but it has steampunk things in it. Therefore I can have Miley Cyrus running around managing a used airship shop."

That said, the middle ages in Europe were not all white people anyways, so "historical realism" is kinda a b#*%@### excuse. :P

Silver Crusade

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

How is one supposed to determine what is 'realistic' about a fantasy world, however? The statistics about our world are not going to be relevant. There's been a lot of complaints about video games like Witcher 3 having an all-white cast, to which some people reply "it's historically realistic", and the first people reply, "like the demons?"

Big things change, little things stay the same. So yeah it's a world with dragons and demons and that sort of stuff. However things like pale skinned humanoids evolving in colder climates with shorter days stays the same. Same with darker skinned humanoids evolving in warmer climates with more sun. This is because of melatonin. The presence of demon lords and dragons and faeries isn't going to have any standing on that. However migration can happen. However just sticking a diverse character into a setting where it makes no sense(Like say a transman on a WWII german u-boat and everyone is fine with it), should be avoided.

Now this is only in humans. We can't weigh in too much with science on the sexuality of non-human humanoids. Such as the general idea that elves are more given to bisexuality, because of their long lifespans. Or a sheep based race would likely have an instance of homosexuality around 10% (as found in real sheep, about 10% of rams are gay)

So with sexuality let's put the percentage at exclusive homosexuality 4-8% in humans. This is assuming general population from multiple cities.

However then you get places like San-Fransisco with a 15% homosexual population or Washington DC at 2.5%

In regard to transpeople, the people of Galorion have it much better. Yes it's pricy, but maybe places like temples of Arshea offer free sex change potions to those who offered a good case. Since the potions ARE expensive $2,250 to buy $1,125 to make.
They'd likely have someone on hand who is skilled with creating said elixirs.
Poof! you're the gender that you were meant to be, sex organs and all.
With that level of magic how do you know the woman or man walking past you isn't trans? There is no way, because the change is so complete for them.
there are probably elixirs that render someone agendered or hemaphroditic as well or any expression of sexuality.

AND another thing, with multiple races, or more accurately species within the world wouldn't there be people who are transspecies? Someone who was born a halfling for example, but feels as if they were born in the wrong race?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

"Affects the game"? Story elements affect the game for me. Whether or not it means I mark off different numbers on my character sheet has nothing to do with it. Characters acting inconsistently or laws of physics being defied without explanation affect the game for me. Now, most weirdnesses, like gravity and abnormal levels of diversity, don't bug me so much. I can handwave them (we don't know exact numbers for minorities, maybe these giant vermin have some sort of *mumblemumble*, people have in the past survived ridiculous falls in real life). But you're trying to turn this from an issue of misguided "realism" into an issue of bigotry. Which is just plain oversimplification, and rather unfair to all involved.

Also, yes, like the demons. I'm sorry, but the presence of demons does not mean all historical bets are off. That's nothing but flat-out lazy. Witcher 3 (which, disclaimer, I have never played) is historical fantasy, not a fantasy world, and breaks from historical accuracy therefore have to be justified. Demons are obviously the central conceit of the game, so they're fine. Increased diversity in the middle ages, though, is a really complicated issue—it would imply greater travel between countries and continents, which would in turn imply a wholly different culture. You can't just go changing stuff willy-nilly. Otherwise it's not historical fantasy at all. It'd be like saying, "This is a Victorian noir novel, but it has steampunk things in it. Therefore I can have Miley Cyrus running around managing a used airship shop."

That said, the middle ages in Europe were not all white people anyways, so "historical realism" is kinda a b@@!*~*+ excuse. :P

To an extent. Some non-white people running around "Victorian noir with steampunk" England is reasonable. "Victorian noir with steampunk" England being majority Japanese and Japanese run is going to require further explanation.

As for that matter is "Victorian noir with steampunk" England without LGBTQ prejudice (or for that matter prejudice against any mention of sex, despite widespread kink in the closet.) Possible of course, but it should be established as part of the setting.


Okay, but you got that "Victorian noir with steampunk" was part of an example that had nothing to do with diversity, right? It was about realism and the all-too-common "there's dragons, I don't gotta explain s*&+" attitude regarding it.

Liberty's Edge Assistant Developer

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Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
AND another thing, with multiple races, or more accurately species within the world wouldn't there be people who are transspecies? Someone who was born a halfling for example, but feels as if they were born in the wrong race?

We are absolutely NOT opening up the transspecies debate again.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a series of posts and the replies to them/quoting them. We understand that there are going to be disagreements in threads like this, and in some cases another person is going to make you see red, however, please challenge ideas (not other people) when posting to paizo.com.


I'm trying to remember what offensiveness the Kellid skin tone stuff was linked to. Assuming it itself wasn't deemed offensive, are we allowed to continue that talk?

Project Manager

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I think it was nuked because it was fruit of the poisonous tree, so to speak, of other stuff that got deleted. That said, it's probably not terribly on topic for the Homosexuality in Golarion thread.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Jessica Price wrote:
I think it was nuked because it was fruit of the poisonous tree, so to speak, of other stuff that got deleted. That said, it's probably not terribly on topic for the Homosexuality in Golarion thread.

Sorry. ^_^

Silver Crusade System Administrator

It's also off topic for the thread.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.

What country are you living in? Or did you forget what two good old small town boys did to Matthew Shepard?

We've got bakeries refusing to serve gay people. We've got bigots declaring people intolerant for refusing to tolerate bigotry.


LazarX wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.
What country are you living in? Or did you forget what some good old small town folks did to Matthew Shepard?

I could be wrong, but I think the intended suggestion was actually that in "places" (including fictional ones like Golarion) that had less transphobia/homophobia, you'd see a visibly higher number of queer people of all stripes, and therefore Lord Twitchiopolis's numbers might be off.


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Jessica Price wrote:
I think it was nuked because it was fruit of the poisonous tree, so to speak, of other stuff that got deleted. That said, it's probably not terribly on topic for the Homosexuality in Golarion thread.

...

Oh, s~!*, I just remembered we had a topic. LazarX! Lazzy, you were paying attention, right? Can I crib off your notes for a sec?


Freehold DM wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Unfortunately we do not yet live in the society where that can be the expected answer. The existence of this very thread is the proof of that.

I'm saying that including a LGBT character is delicate work. I'm saying there is a certain level of presence of any given social group which one would expect, and finding a given level of diversity without it becoming cliche or pandering requires balance.

It's the "High School

...

Including gay and trans characters per se is not a delicate act, avoiding tokenism definitely is, so is avoiding too much allegory or didactic content.

And inclusiveness can be different and is different to representation. Having a gay character in an AP doesn't necessarily mean it includes or welcomes LGBT gamers, its often the indirectness, layers of character that makes inclusiveness possible rather than simple representation.

Some very impressive strategic writing is happening at Paizo.

Dark Archive

The Norv wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.
What country are you living in? Or did you forget what some good old small town folks did to Matthew Shepard?
I could be wrong, but I think the intended suggestion was actually that in "places" (including fictional ones like Golarion) that had less transphobia/homophobia, you'd see a visibly higher number of queer people of all stripes, and therefore Lord Twitchiopolis's numbers might be off.

That was the impression I got as well, that he was talking about Golarion, not the real world.

Which would be topical!

Still, this is a setting with devil worship, necromancy, soul peddling, institutionalized misogyny, slavery, a nation built on the drug-trade, etc. I'm sure not *everywhere* is a bastion of enlightenment on this subject either.

Indeed, some regressive attitudes might crop up in places that seem, on the surface, a bit utopian, like Hermea, where anyone who doesn't get with the program ('The Program' being 'make lots of genetically superior babies, perhaps by multiple pre-selected partners') could be firmly invited to get the heck out of paradise. We gots us a better race to breed, and those of y'all who aren't breeding, for whatever reason, are just slowing down the Great Experiment.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.

What country are you living in? Or did you forget what two good old small town boys did to Matthew Shepard?

We've got bakeries refusing to serve gay people. We've got bigots declaring people intolerant for refusing to tolerate bigotry.

*facepalm*

I can't tell if you're just trying to be offended or if you really think that?

I meant within the world's setting, as per the title of the post.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
With that level of magic how do you know the woman or man walking past you isn't trans? There is no way, because the change is so complete for them.

Any 3rd level cleric could tell you.


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The Norv wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.
What country are you living in? Or did you forget what some good old small town folks did to Matthew Shepard?
I could be wrong, but I think the intended suggestion was actually that in "places" (including fictional ones like Golarion) that had less transphobia/homophobia, you'd see a visibly higher number of queer people of all stripes, and therefore Lord Twitchiopolis's numbers might be off.

Seems legit. To a few people who seem to think there are more homosexual, transgendered, and bisexual people than their used to be, I've often commented that it's not that there are more, you just see more of them. It's hard to be open in your life when you're punished for doing so, whereas in a more open society where nobody really cares you'll see it more often.

This also extends to most anything, including religious or philosophical beliefs, hobbies and interests, or anything else that could potentially suffer from some sort of social stigma.

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
With that level of magic how do you know the woman or man walking past you isn't trans? There is no way, because the change is so complete for them.
Any 3rd level cleric could tell you.

How so?


Shisumo wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
With that level of magic how do you know the woman or man walking past you isn't trans? There is no way, because the change is so complete for them.
Any 3rd level cleric could tell you.
How so?

Augury.

Merely phrase the question so that one or the other is considered good or bad for your situation, such as "If my goal is to find someone that was once the same sex as I, and not someone that wasn't" or something like that.

Alternatively, commune should probably work. If psionics are on the table, sensitivity to psychic impressions would work as well as you could deduce a before and after (such as witnessing a characters birth in the past vs their current state).


That's at best 90% accurate and would have to word the question in such a way that there would be a clear good and bad result not simply a meh


Talonhawke wrote:
That's at best 90% accurate and would have to word the question in such a way that there would be a clear good and bad result not simply a meh

I never said it was 100% accurate, merely that they could indeed tell you. If you have multiple clerics, you could reduce the % margin for error down to essentially trivial. However, that's not really necessary because it's just whether they can or not.

But then, what's the point if they couldn't?


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Augury reports only with weal/woe/weal and woe/meh about the outcome of a specified action. You would have to create actual situation with tangibly positive or negative outcome, based on the (pre-transition) gender of the individual in question. Which itself is very tricky.

EDIT: Ashiel example would not work because there is no tangible weal or woe within 30 minutes of the casting to it... Your pride at being successful at finding transgendered individual is hardly a reasonable "weal".


If your objective is to find one, then the positive result for achieving your objective is clear. If you're looking for good results in your search, then Augury could help.

An obvious (benevolent) use of this would be trying to use augury to find someone who has transitioned because you're trying to help someone with transitioning and they need advice. Doesn't mean the sought person would be particularly happy with the apparent invasion of privacy though.


Exactly which would create a Weal and Woe situation. You also have to consider that only the rich would even be able to do this regularly. your looking at 77.5 g a casting each of which only last 30 mins you don't know if it worked for sure and if it failed you have to get a new guy to recast it.

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