This is Scott Rouse interview on ICV2 (link). There's nothing really new on this interview, but it has some clarifying points on Wotc's reasons for the end of the d20 Trademark license and 4E's attempts to reach the MMO audience.
For who who can't access it:
Let’s start with the Open Gaming License. That is a license that’s a perpetual license. It has no clause for revocation so it will continue to exist out there in the gaming community and publishers will continue to use the open content that was released under that license to publish games. Then we have our d20 system trademark license, and this was a license that allowed publishers to utilize the d20 system trademark. It gave them a few extra perks like being able to refer to trademark products like The Player’s Handbook, The Monster Manual, The Dungeon Master’s Guide, and in exchange, there were some limitations on that license, including character creation, and the advancement of characters with experience points. We wanted the license to support the core rulebooks that we release either under the d20 Modern campaign or under the Dungeons and Dragons campaign, and in June of 2008 that license will be terminated as we release the new game system license.
We’re going to give publishers a sell-off period where they’ll have until the end of 2008 to move through any stock that they have in their warehouses. Once it’s at distribution or in retail, the product can continue to sell through in its natural progression. We’re not going to ask publishers to recall that product and destroy it. But any excess inventory that they may happen to have in their warehouses at the end of ’08 would need to be destroyed. Any subsequent reprints they can still publish through the Open Gaming License, they just have to remove the d20 system trademark logo. That would include both PDF and physical product that continues to be sold after 2008.
On the OGL, you said it applies to material that was released under that license, what material specifically was released under that license?
A number of publishers, including Wizards of the Coast, released content as Open. For us it would be, what we call our Systems Reference Document, which is 3rd Edition (and 3.5 update) D&D rules as well as rules for Modern roleplaying. That System Reference Document, as Open and released under the license, continues to exist in the gamer community.
If I have this correctly, the d20 product that’s currently out there can continue to be sold, it just has to change the logo from d20 to something else?
Those will just revert back to publishing under the OGL.
What’s going to happen to the d20 mark?
We’ll continue to use that as a house organ mark, so it will show compatibility between our products, so any products we release under the Dungeons and Dragons line, Star Wars Saga Edition line, or any modern setting, it would bear that mark and it shows compatibility between miniatures, tiles, book products, that they use the d20 system.
Will retailers be able to continue sell old product with the d20 mark after the end of this year?
Absolutely. We’re not going to recall, or ask publishers to recall any of that product, so it will naturally move through that channel.
So there is no analogous d20 mark?
The license will be similar to the d20 System trade mark. There’s two licenses under the games system license. There’s a license for D&D roleplaying, and what we’re going to allow publishers to do under that license is actually show compatibility with D&D 4th Edition. They will have a little slug that’s a D&D logo with some compatibility text. Something to the effect that this product is compatible with the 4th Edition D&D roleplaying game.
Under the Modern license, there will be a license for non-fantasy roleplaying settings. The details of that haven’t been released yet. We don’t have a product line that that will support, but in the coming weeks we’ll be talking about plans for late 2009 and 2010 where we’ll be refreshing the d20 Modern or the Urban Arcana setting.
When D&D 4th Edition was announced last year, some publishers were going to be allowed a buy-in to get early access to the material. Did that happen?
No. We had some delays with the drafting of the game system license. One of those delays was adding this new alternate Modern roleplaying license. Our original intentions were that in February publishers would be able to buy a Games System License developers kit for $5,000 that would give them early access to the rules and an exclusivity window for publishing that would last through the end of 2009. The license would turn on in August at Gen Con and they would be able to sell from August to December. Because of the delays in drafting the license, that plan just didn’t make sense. We abandoned the phase one plan for the GSL and moved directly onto phase two, which was opening the system to everybody and that will happen on June 6th when we release 4th Edition, and those publishers will be able to start selling their products starting October 1st.
Why did you change the way you are branding your own vs. other people’s products?
It’s my understanding that the d20 mark was supposed to be the next best thing to having the D&D logo if you were a third party publisher. I think in the early stages that d20 mark really did stand for not only a symbol of compatibility but a symbol of quality, but not everyone released high quality products. I think over time the mark lost the equity that it once had. We actually started to see publishers stop using the mark. Although the intentions were correct, it never really panned out as conveying that the product is not D&D but it’s the next best thing. So it made sense to change directions on that.
So now you’ll just communicate that it’s compatible rather than on the quality?
Yes.
You’ve had a lot of interest in the new launch at the show?
Yes, we’ve had a lot of activity at our booth. We had a seminar on Tuesday where we talked about some of our launch plans and product offerings. People were literally piling out the doors. We had to add a second session today for the people who weren’t able to fit in the room yesterday.
Everyone is really excited about 4th Edition. I think it’ll be a real invigoration for the hobby for the summer. We’re seeing tremendous preorders. We’re seeing a lot of excitement on the message boards, so we’re really looking forward to the release of the product.
We’re going to have D&D Game Day, which will be happening on June 7th, the day after the release of the three core rule books. Our goal is to have, simultaneously, 3,000 stores across the world running D&D 4th Edition events. We’re already seeing a lot of interest from the hobby stores that are ordering the kits, and they’re going quickly. Retailers who haven’t ordered yet should get a hold of the folks at the RPGA to order your game day kit.
The roleplaying category has been slipping a little in the last few years. What does the 4th Edition mean to the macro trends in the market?
It’s going to be like 3rd Edition was; another point of reinvigoration of the category. With the release of 4th Edition, not only do we see a lot of old hobby gamers coming back to stores, but it’s a great opportunity to reach the next generation of gamers. Through our efforts in D&D Insider we have a great opportunity to reach out to that MMO playing younger gaming generation.
There’s a lot of great MMO games out there. I play them. I’m a big fan of World of Warcraft, and I think younger players that enjoy that experience would enjoy D&D, and in many ways 4th Edition is allowing us to give them some of the themes they’ve become used to in computer-based games. D&D Insider allows us a chance to deliver the D&D game system in a familiar format. For examples, with D&D Insider, character creation is a much easier process. Also we’ve streamlined the game. We’ve made the game play quicker around the table. There’s more action, less of the game stoppers--down times whether to have to stop to look up a rule in book or having to stop because your party members ran out of spells and it’s time to stop and rest. We wanted to take some of those show stoppers out of the game. Also we wanted to make the dungeon master’s job easier (make it easier for them to run a campaign), because DMs are the life blood of D&D. They’re the folks who hold the game groups together. If we make the job easier, it’ll be easier to recruit new DMs and we know that we can grow the hobby.
What kind of ad support have you got behind the launch?
We have a pretty significant campaign, with print, online as well as some TV advertising. We’re actually filming a TV spot in Seattle. You may have seen the Beholder at Gen Con last year made an appearance in Seattle. The shoot is a very fun, tongue-in-cheek, taking this obviously very fake monster (it’s absolutely huge, it’s 13 feet tall), and driving it around to generically iconic locations so the Beholder is at a city bus stop, it’s going to go to a coffee shop, a games store, the beach, a farm and even makes an appearance at the roller derby and makes a big payoff for the spot: “On June 6th, 4th edition will be everywhere.” This will be running on some cable networks including G4 and Sci Fi.
The first part of our marketing efforts in print, online and TV are meant to migrate that existing D&D player to 4th Edition. They’re really low hanging fruit. They’re already playing the game, they’re familiar with it. Then as we get later in the year, we’ll start to reach out to a broader audience for the acquisition marketing. That will mostly be a print and online campaign. We may revisit TV at that point.
Can you talk about how big a spend or how many impressions in terms of the TV campaign?
Our total marketing spend is about $2.5 million for the launch of 4th Edition. That would be all the media combined plus our Game Day event.
Where’s the online advertising going to appear?
It’s going to be on a lot of hobby gaming sites, places like EN World, ICv2, trade outreach as well as consumer outreach. And then as we get farther into the year and into that acquisition push, we’ll go broader, looking at some of the younger skewing sites, gaming sites as well as lifestyle sites.
I would say this year more than ever we’re putting a greater focus into online advertising. Not only does it allow us to reach a broader audience and a global audience, but we’re seeing the venues for print advertising dry up. There are still some core hobby publications, but we’re seeing that we have to reach into some of the broader publications, starting with looking at Geek and some of the computer gaming magazines. But, as you get into that broader reach the cost per thousand goes up quite a bit. A big push this year for online, but we’ll certainly have some print efforts.
I heard that if a 3rd Party Publisher went with 4th edition they were no longer allowed to make any more OGL 3rd edition product.
I had no idea they had to sell all their 3rd edition OGL stuff by the end of the year or it must be destroyed!!!
I heard that if a 3rd Party Publisher went with 4th edition they were no longer allowed to make any more OGL 3rd edition product.
I had no idea they had to sell all their 3rd edition OGL stuff by the end of the year or it must be destroyed!!!
They don't have to destroy their OGL stuff...they'd have to destroy STL (system trademark license) stuff. There is definitely a difference.
|
So coming out of his own mouth "there’s a lot of great MMO games out there. I play them. I’m a big fan of World of Warcraft, and I think younger players that enjoy that experience would enjoy D&D, and in many ways 4th Edition is allowing us to give them some of the themes they’ve become used to in computer-based games" So to end the debate is 4th edition a "WOW with crappy graphics" or WOW table top game. He said it right there. Case closed.
I heard that if a 3rd Party Publisher went with 4th edition they were no longer allowed to make any more OGL 3rd edition product.
I had no idea they had to sell all their 3rd edition OGL stuff by the end of the year or it must be destroyed!!!
More importantly, they do not have to destroy that procdcut if it is at a distributer. That means they will have already made the money off it, and those books can still reach the shelves of game stores.
Besides, all they have to do is snip out the Logo from their PDF files and keep selling the books.
So coming out of his own mouth "there’s a lot of great MMO games out there. I play them. I’m a big fan of World of Warcraft, and I think younger players that enjoy that experience would enjoy D&D, and in many ways 4th Edition is allowing us to give them some of the themes they’ve become used to in computer-based games" So to end the debate is 4th edition a "WOW with crappy graphics" or WOW table top game. He said it right there. Case closed.
I don't read that sentence that way at all. I see it as: "since WoW has lured a new generation into the genre of fantasy role-playing games, 4E hopes to offer them another avenue to explore some of the themes that interested them".
YMMV, but 4E does not seem like (or play like) WoW to me at all.
Cheers! :)
I heard that if a 3rd Party Publisher went with 4th edition they were no longer allowed to make any more OGL 3rd edition product.
I had no idea they had to sell all their 3rd edition OGL stuff by the end of the year or it must be destroyed!!!
Hmm, you are confusing the OGL with the d20 Trademark license.
It works more like this:
Publishers (regardless of going 4E) are required to either sell or destroy products in stock which carry the d20 logo. If they remove the logo, they can sell these products whenever they want since the OGL is irrevocable.
Publishers who decide to go 4E (thus adere to the GSL) may not sell any products which use the OGL. If they drop the GSL, they can go back to the OGL (which, as I said, is irrevocable) but it seems that they can't return to the GSL later. (Note: this entire paragraph are Clark's speculations)
So coming out of his own mouth "there’s a lot of great MMO games out there. I play them. I’m a big fan of World of Warcraft, and I think younger players that enjoy that experience would enjoy D&D, and in many ways 4th Edition is allowing us to give them some of the themes they’ve become used to in computer-based games" So to end the debate is 4th edition a "WOW with crappy graphics" or WOW table top game. He said it right there. Case closed.I don't read that sentence that way at all. I see it as: "since WoW has lured a new generation into the genre of fantasy role-playing games, 4E hopes to offer them another avenue to explore some of the themes that interested them".
YMMV, but 4E does not seem like (or play like) WoW to me at all.
Cheers! :)
Yah, I read that exactly the way David did. Scott sees the people who play WOW as people who could love playing D&D.
Once you've played a high fantasy, sort of role playing game like World of Warcraft, a lot of people crave more control over the story being told. They want a full fledge role playing expirence, and D&D is the best game to provide that.
What is wrong with providing that?
Here's a visual to help folks out with this OGL vs. STL problem. Head over to this site and check out some of the cover page shots. You'll see products with the D20 logo on the front. These are D20 STL products and would be subject to the STL being revoked (i.e. must be destroyed if not at a retailer/distributor by year's end). Now take a look at something like True20 Adventure Roleplaying. You won't see the d20 System logo on this one--it's not covered under the STL and Green Ronin can keep selling as much as they want...unless they go with publishing 4e. True20 is an OGL product--my copy has the Open Game License on page 223--and with the exclusivity clause WotC is introducing with 4e, if Green Ronin decides to publish 4e products, then they can no longer publish True20.
Here's a visual to help folks out with this OGL vs. STL problem. Head over to this site and check out some of the cover page shots. You'll see products with the D20 logo on the front. These are D20 STL products and would be subject to the STL being revoked (i.e. must be destroyed if not at a retailer/distributor by year's end). Now take a look at something like True20 Adventure Roleplaying. You won't see the d20 System logo on this one--it's not covered under the STL and Green Ronin can keep selling as much as they want...unless they go with publishing 4e. True20 is an OGL product--my copy has the Open Game License on page 223--and with the exclusivity clause WotC is introducing with 4e, if Green Ronin decides to publish 4e products, then they can no longer publish True20.
At least, so we assume. So far that hasn't been completely clarified by WotC. They MAY be unable to do so if they go with 4E, but that isn't confirmed yet.
Cheers! :)
At least, so we assume. So far that hasn't been completely clarified by WotC. They MAY be unable to do so if they go with 4E, but that isn't confirmed yet.
Cheers! :)
True, though it seems like a pretty solid assumption at this point. As I've gotten away from D&D and more into other systems (True20, Savage Worlds, etc.) I frequent more non-D&D specific forums now and the general assumption there is much the same (from folks like Chris Pramas with Green Ronin, he's not saying it's true, but vociferously reassuring his customers that if/when it happens their interests in systems like True20 and Mutants and Masterminds will be safe).
True, though it seems like a pretty solid assumption at this point. As I've gotten away from D&D and more into other systems (True20, Savage Worlds, etc.) I frequent more non-D&D specific forums now and the general assumption there is much the same (from folks like Chris Pramas with Green Ronin, he's not saying it's true, but vociferously reassuring his customers that if/when it happens their interests in systems like True20 and Mutants and Masterminds will be safe).
You won't hear any arguments from me there. Put still, we shouldn't pass off hearsay as fact if we really don't know.
As for Green Ronin, I wasn't aware they still put out DnD stuff anymore. I thought they were pretty much True20/M&M only now? I'll admit, I don't stray out of DnD too often (my group, despite their enjoyment of random craziness, aren't very interested in new system mechanics and thus highly reluctant to switch systems).
Cheers! :)
As for Green Ronin, I wasn't aware they still put out DnD stuff anymore. I thought they were pretty much True20/M&M only now? I'll admit, I don't stray out of DnD too often (my group, despite their enjoyment of random craziness, aren't very interested in new system mechanics and thus highly reluctant to switch systems).
Cheers! :)
Oh no, they definitely still have d20/D&D support--Freeport, Thieves' World, etc. and they definitely still have products using the d20 STL that will be impacted by the revocation of the license. Some good stuff, entirely free from their own systems like True20 and readily useable in just about any d20 setting.
True, though it seems like a pretty solid assumption at this point. As I've gotten away from D&D and more into other systems (True20, Savage Worlds, etc.) I frequent more non-D&D specific forums now and the general assumption there is much the same (from folks like Chris Pramas with Green Ronin, he's not saying it's true, but vociferously reassuring his customers that if/when it happens their interests in systems like True20 and Mutants and Masterminds will be safe).You won't hear any arguments from me there. Put still, we shouldn't pass off hearsay as fact if we really don't know.
As for Green Ronin, I wasn't aware they still put out DnD stuff anymore. I thought they were pretty much True20/M&M only now? I'll admit, I don't stray out of DnD too often (my group, despite their enjoyment of random craziness, aren't very interested in new system mechanics and thus highly reluctant to switch systems).
Cheers! :)
It effects things like GR's Freeport, meaning that they can make a companion book for it in True20, 3.5 but not 4th ed. Which was Green Ronin's original plan, by not putting any stats in the main Freeport book
, without a trace of irony,
I would say this year more than ever we’re putting a greater focus into online advertising. Not only does it allow us to reach a broader audience and a global audience, but we’re seeing the venues for print advertising dry up. There are still some core hobby publications
If only there were a dedicated magazine or other periodical that could address the needs of D&D players...
What is that I hear you say? Kobold Quarterly? Pathfinder?
Oh no, they definitely still have d20/D&D support--Freeport, Thieves' World, etc. and they definitely still have products using the d20 STL that will be impacted by the revocation of the license. Some good stuff, entirely free from their own systems like True20 and readily useable in just about any d20 setting.
Hrms, I had heard they hadn't made any Freeport books in a year or so.
Anyway, the STL stuff isn't affected one way or another ... they just have to take the license off the books. Books already printed with the license have to be sold to a distributor by the end of the year, but if a company can't move all of the stock they have now by the end of the year, I'd be kinda surprised.
Cheers! :)
It effects things like GR's Freeport, meaning that they can make a companion book for it in True20, 3.5 but not 4th ed. Which was Green Ronin's original plan, by not putting any stats in the main Freeport book
Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying. Like I mentioned, I don't follow 3rd party very much anymore.
I understand Necro had thought of also trying to put out 3E versions of their stuff. I'm not surprised WotC closed down that idea pretty fast though; they want people to switch.
Cheers! :)
It effects things like GR's Freeport, meaning that they can make a companion book for it in True20, 3.5 but not 4th ed. Which was Green Ronin's original plan, by not putting any stats in the main Freeport book
Yes, they currently have The Pirate's Guide to Freeport out as a "fluff" product, then provide various Companion products to provide the rules. So far, they support d20, True20, and Savage Worlds. I personally really like this approach and so hope that the exclusivity rumors are just that...rumors. I'm, unfortunately, not optimistic on that front from everything I'm seeing thus far and that's a bit sad if it'll drive the good, established third party folks (like Green Ronin) away from supporting 4e. I'm not a 4e fan myself thus far, but I don't begrudge 4e folks the right to good product support. I'm sure new folks will rise up and shine, but if it takes them 3-4 years to build a good reputation, all the while competing with other supporting companies that aren't that great, it could just water down the brand as happened with the d20 STL as Scott notes in the interview.
I believe it is confirmed that you won't be able to make a product for the GSL and sell another version of it with the OGL. The big controversy is whether or not that restriction is product-wide or company-wide.
Of course, if you REALLY make a pure fluff book, it doesn't have to use any rule system. But yeah, I wouldn't count on seeing crunch products that support OGL and GSL games.
Cheers! :)
Anyway, the STL stuff isn't affected one way or another ... they just have to take the license off the books. Books already printed with the license have to be sold to a distributor by the end of the year, but if a company can't move all of the stock they have now by the end of the year, I'd be kinda surprised.
Cheers! :)
Well, the STL is obviously affected, but I think you mean they can still sell the product by removing the logo and so there's no net effect. It'll cost them some labor to modify the PDFs (not just cutting off the logo--they have to remove any reference the the Player's Handbook, for instance). I do not think this will be a major impact to Green Ronin--they've got a good rep and can move products fairly readily from what I gather.
Of course, if you REALLY make a pure fluff book, it doesn't have to use any rule system. But yeah, I wouldn't count on seeing crunch products that support OGL and GSL games.
Cheers! :)
Well, yes and no on not using any rule system. For folks that have been in the hobby for years, picking up a fluff book and banging out the rules as needed to get a game going is no big deal. For new folks (or for veterans that lack the time) however, even when using a more simplified DM system as is reported for 4e it helps to have all that work done for you. Heck, Savage Worlds is so simple you can almost run a game on the fly (I often wonder now if the 4e guys were watching Savage Worlds development!) but the Freeport companion was still a much-desired product. It just limits the amount of third party support on what could be some really good products.
Well, the STL is obviously affected, but I think you mean they can still sell the product by removing the logo and so there's no net effect. It'll cost them some labor to modify the PDFs (not just cutting off the logo--they have to remove any reference the the Player's Handbook, for instance). I do not think this will be a major impact to Green Ronin--they've got a good rep and can move products fairly readily from what I gather.
Yes, that is what I meant. Even for companies with a less stellar reputation, I'd imagine printing more than you can sell in half a year at once is probably a bad business move, although I'll admit I'm not in publishing.
Well, yes and no on not using any rule system. For folks that have been in the hobby for years, picking up a fluff book and banging out the rules as needed to get a game going is no big deal. For new folks (or for veterans that lack the time) however, even when using a more simplified DM system as is reported for 4e it helps to have all that work done for you. Heck, Savage Worlds is so simple you can almost run a game on the fly (I often wonder now if the 4e guys were watching Savage Worlds development!) but the Freeport companion was still a much-desired product. It just limits the amount of third party support on what could be some really good products.
Heh, don't get me wrong, I'd be pretty reluctant on buying a pure fluff book precisely because of time constraints. I was just saying you could ...
As for Savage Worlds, I'm almost 100% positive I've seen a few designers saying one of the games they play during the week is a Savage Worlds game. These guys play a lot of different stuff while getting paid (what an awesome job!)
Cheers! :)
Yes, that is what I meant. Even for companies with a less stellar reputation, I'd imagine printing more than you can sell in half a year at once is probably a bad business move, although I'll admit I'm not in publishing.
Probably true, though I'm not sure if folks do a "1st print run" or whatever and just whip out 500 (a number I grabbed out of the air) and then hope they can move that over the lifecycle of the product. I'm betting the more likely route with those that can't even move product now is cut-rate prices to liquidate, then destroying the rest with no plans for a future print. If they can't move the product now then putting the dollars into updating the product for another print wouldn't make sense.
Glad I'm not a publisher!
Heh, don't get me wrong, I'd be pretty reluctant on buying a pure fluff book precisely because of time constraints. I was just saying you could ...
Ah, yes. Definitely a possibility. The difficulty in putting out something that is truly system-free is that without some type of system support--whether free or as a supplement--the product seems unlikely to sell at all to those that like system X. With that scenario and an exclusivity clause, that leads back around to my saddness that 4e won't likely get the love it could from some of the big-hitters, since they're already invested in so many other areas.
As for Savage Worlds, I'm almost 100% positive I've seen a few designers saying one of the games they play during the week is a Savage Worlds game. These guys play a lot of different stuff while getting paid (what an awesome job!)
Cheers! :)
Well there you go! SW is good stuff--nice and easy to run, detailed enough to fill all the holes without getting too in the weeds, I can whip out a character/NPC/monster in minutes. And a character can called-shot a guy in the eye! (well, if he's got the goods to actually make such a shot...). It's definitely an easy system both for novice DMs and folks with limited prep time.
Oddly enough, if 4e was more like SW (even though it would then be even more unlike 3.5) I'd probably have a preorder in right now!
As for Green Ronin, I wasn't aware they still put out DnD stuff anymore.
The d20 Freeport Companion (for 3.5) came out only a month ago.
We also had the Bleeding Edge series of short modules, of which there are currently 7.
Chris Pramas
Green Ronin Publishing
As for Green Ronin, I wasn't aware they still put out DnD stuff anymore.The d20 Freeport Companion (for 3.5) came out only a month ago.
We also had the Bleeding Edge series of short modules, of which there are currently 7.
Chris Pramas
Green Ronin Publishing
Hey Chris! Hope I've represented GR properly here. You guys seemed like the best example of a publisher that could really support 4e well with your multi-format model, so I used you as an example.
And thanks for the Freeport supplements--now I can run it no matter if my group stays with d20 or goes to Savage Worlds!
So coming out of his own mouth "there’s a lot of great MMO games out there. I play them. I’m a big fan of World of Warcraft, and I think younger players that enjoy that experience would enjoy D&D, and in many ways 4th Edition is allowing us to give them some of the themes they’ve become used to in computer-based games" So to end the debate is 4th edition a "WOW with crappy graphics" or WOW table top game. He said it right there. Case closed.I don't read that sentence that way at all. I see it as: "since WoW has lured a new generation into the genre of fantasy role-playing games, 4E hopes to offer them another avenue to explore some of the themes that interested them".
YMMV, but 4E does not seem like (or play like) WoW to me at all.
Cheers! :)
You're right. It's not JUST like WoW at all.
It's a mixture of WoW, CCG, Miniatures skirmish, and video gaming all on a tabletop RPG. I mean, heck, after that last few excerpt articles, we can now call 4E a "card game" what with a ton of power cards around the character sheet, an "enhanced miniatures" game due to it being played exactly like DDM except with a bit more complexity and control, and like MMORPGs, well, because WotC admitted as much and want that demographic to hopefully bring them tons of cash.
Oh, lets not forget the DDI subscription for "extra material"...obviously material you will NEED if you want more material (which, of course, anyone would want).
All of which, to me and many others, is NOT D&D. At this point, I will call out those who still believe this is a tabletop game and still D&D as those in true denial. Admit it's not D&D, it's WotC's own game, and move on. Gygax D&D is dead.
Hope I cleared your confusion.
It's a mixture of WoW, CCG, Miniatures skirmish, and video gaming all on a tabletop RPG. I mean, heck, after that last few excerpt articles, we can now call 4E a "card game" what with a ton of power cards around the character sheet, an "enhanced miniatures" game due to it being played exactly like DDM except with a bit more complexity and control, and like MMORPGs, well, because WotC admitted as much and want that demographic to hopefully bring them tons of cash.
I can't necessarily disagree--I haven't played 4e so my only frame of reference is Internet reactions. But if that's the game they want to make, and folks want to buy it...well, there it is...
Oh, lets not forget the DDI subscription for "extra material"...obviously material you will NEED if you want more material (which, of course, anyone would want).
Not anyone. I've come full circle on "gotta have it all" and I absolutely don't want it. If a product is good, I'll get it. If not, I'm not wasting my money just to build a collection or support a company with which I do not agree.
All of which, to me and many others, is NOT D&D. At this point, I will call out those who still believe this is a tabletop game and still D&D as those in true denial. Admit it's not D&D, it's WotC's own game, and move on. Gygax D&D is dead.
Hope I cleared your confusion.
Well Razz, you seem a bit bitter here. 4e ain't it for me, so the DDI matters even less than the core books. However, I no longer begrudge the 4e folks their right to like the game. I've got Paizo's Pathfinder, so many Savage Worlds options I can't even think straight, some fresh new coolness from a game called Suzerain...D&D is not the game some company says it is because they slap a logo on the cover. I can play D&D with any of the above systems, cruise right along, and never have to give my money to WotC. Other folks can play their D&D with 4e if they want.
You're right. It's not JUST like WoW at all.
It's a mixture of WoW, CCG, Miniatures skirmish, and video gaming all on a tabletop RPG. I mean, heck, after that last few excerpt articles, we can now call 4E a "card game" what with a ton of power cards around the character sheet, an "enhanced miniatures" game due to it being played exactly like DDM except with a bit more complexity and control, and like MMORPGs, well, because WotC admitted as much and want that demographic to hopefully bring them tons of cash.
Cards: 2E had power cards (I own three decks); 3E did as well, although admittedly 3rd party made.
Minis: I've always used minis for DnD, even before 3E, and so do many other people. Even Paizo provides minis in their store; surely if minis are so disassociated with DnD as you claim, there would be no need for them here. DDM and 3E share a good portion of their rules as well, with some conceits to make DDM more of a tactical minis game. THOSE elements were dropped in the switch to DDM 2.0, making it MORE like DnD 4E, not the other way around (DDM players are somewhat mixed in opinions according to my DDM playing friend). Even in DDM 2.0 there is no mini that will approach the complexity of a 4E character.
Wow: As I said, I don't think the quote was meant as some here have interpreted, and others have agreed. Obviously we can't know unless we get direct comment, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. As many others have stated though, any similarities in 4E with WoW are there because WoW would be similar to any edition of DnD ... it is the same genre.
As for this:
Oh, lets not forget the DDI subscription for "extra material"...obviously material you will NEED if you want more material (which, of course, anyone would want).
I think people who want more material will ... want more material, and be happy to get it from the DDI. Would they really be better off if they wanted more material and couldn't get anything at all? I'm not sure what your beef is with the idea of offering online content?
All of which, to me and many others, is NOT D&D. At this point, I will call out those who still believe this is a tabletop game and still D&D as those in true denial. Admit it's not D&D, it's WotC's own game, and move on. Gygax D&D is dead.
Gygaxian DnD has been dead for some time. Gygax left the company a long, long time ago. If this was really about Gygaxian vs. Non-Gygaxian, I'd suggest DnD hasn't been DnD for some time indeed ...
Still, cheers! :)
You're right. It's not JUST like WoW at all.
It's a mixture of WoW, CCG, Miniatures skirmish, and video gaming all on a tabletop RPG. I mean, heck, after that last few excerpt articles, we can now call 4E a "card game" what with a ton of power cards around the character sheet, an "enhanced miniatures" game due to it being played exactly like DDM except with a bit more complexity and control, and like MMORPGs, well, because WotC admitted as much and want that demographic to hopefully bring them tons of cash.
Many people use cards of some sort to track spells, spell-like abilities, familiar stats, summon stats, and monster stats. The use of note cards is not new at all or native to just the D&D RPG.
DDM is a simplified combat-only version of D&D. D&D doesnt use DDM rules, DDM uses D&D rules.
Finally, D&D is only really WoW-ish in the sense that they are both fantasy RPGs.
Oh, lets not forget the DDI subscription for "extra material"...obviously material you will NEED if you want more material (which, of course, anyone would want).
Incorrect. You will not need a DDI account to play D&D. This has been clarified since they started talking about DDI.
All of which, to me and many others, is NOT D&D. At this point, I will call out those who still believe this is a tabletop game and still D&D as those in true denial. Admit it's not D&D, it's WotC's own game, and move on. Gygax D&D is dead.
Hope I cleared your confusion.
I disagree. You can call me out all you want, but I think that YOU are the one who is in denial that D&D is changing. Whether or not you personally like it is irrelevant to the fact that its still D&D.
|
Many people use cards of some sort to track spells, spell-like abilities, familiar stats, summon stats, and monster stats. The use of note cards is not new at all or native to just the D&D RPG.
DDM is a simplified combat-only version of D&D. D&D doesnt use DDM rules, DDM uses D&D rules.
Well, I loathe 4e, but would someone explain to me what it is about cards ?
I have fallen a bit behind on reading about this stuff.
Many people use cards of some sort to track spells, spell-like abilities, familiar stats, summon stats, and monster stats. The use of note cards is not new at all or native to just the D&D RPG.
DDM is a simplified combat-only version of D&D. D&D doesnt use DDM rules, DDM uses D&D rules.Well, I loathe 4e, but would someone explain to me what it is about cards ?
I have fallen a bit behind on reading about this stuff.
Basically if you have trouble remembering what some of the abilities do, you can jot them down on note cards. They are actually including cards formatted to the layout of the powers with the Character Sheets, so you can arrange them all "official" like.
Now, not all of the powers appear to be so complicated as to require complete cards. For example, Tide of Iron is just "make an attack, push a creature back, move into space if you want". Easy to remember, but I dont expect everyone to be able to remember all of their stuff, especially at higher levels.Razz is using this as one of many things to justify to himself why he hates 4th Edition so, despite the fact that many people use cards already to remind them of class features, spells, sometimes feats, and statistical data (summons, companions, familiars, mounts, etc).
I recall a time not too long ago that people were asking Paizo for spell cards. And remember Paizo offers item cards.
Antioch, I appreciate your tone in defending 4e. You have much more patience than I do.
Well Razz, you seem a bit bitter here. 4e ain't it for me, so the DDI matters even less than the core books. However, I no longer begrudge the 4e folks their right to like the game. I've got Paizo's Pathfinder, so many Savage Worlds options I can't even think straight, some fresh new coolness from a game called Suzerain...D&D is not the game some company says it is because they slap a logo on the cover. I can play D&D with any of the above systems, cruise right along, and never have to give my money to WotC. Other folks can play their D&D with 4e if they want.
Right on.
I recall a time not too long ago that people were asking Paizo for spell cards. And remember Paizo offers item cards.
Antioch, I appreciate your tone in defending 4e. You have much more patience than I do.
Its...adequate, I suppose, warm up for my college writing class. :-)
I take no issues with people who dont like 4th Edition. If it doesnt appeal to you, great. My problem is when people claim that they hate it for invented reasons.
An example is people who STILL complain that gnomes arent in the game, despite us knowing that they were in a looong time ago.
Other examples are unkillable PCs, requiring DDI to play, and that your prior D&D campaigns will explode.