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I would like to toss in my two cents of not using any kind of official Action Points with PRPG. If they find their way to an optional sidebar for folks who want that kind of stuff, that's great, but please don't make them part of the core rules.
On the other hand, since May 2007 (and Star Wars Saga) my D&D groups have been using the Second Wind option (and the feat to use it twice a day) in our games to great acceptance by all. Taking a cue from Monte Cook's BoXM, I now allow Second Wind to either once per day heal 1/4 your total hit points plus Con bonus, OR allow a second saving throw to overcome a current condition (like stunning or paralysis). It's fast, easy, prevents ending the day a bit too early and has a heroic feel to it. Something that others may also want to see in a sidebar.
Last, but not least, I have been toying with something in my home campaigns since last summer too, and that is gauging how long a spell or condition affects someone based on how bad they botch their saving throw. I still think being stunned or out for a combat should be possible (and fearful for characters!) but this takes a bit of the wonkiness of two characters failing a save vs. the Mind Flayer, and the one who missed it by 2 points is stunned for 11 rounds and another who rolled a 1 is stunned for 3 rounds. As long as a system is developed that is fast and intuitive I find this has also increased enjoyment at my tables and frequently lets PCs come back just a little bit sooner than just beign out for the whole combat. At the moment I just rule the # of rounds they are out is by how many points they fail their save. Thoughts?
-DM Jeff
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Y'know here's another thing that would make playing faster. Flat effect durations. If a player fails a save, they fail a save, it's pretty binary, and I can buy into that. So to your point DM Jeff, I disagree with the "how much you fail is a gradient" idea. You fail, you fail, period. If a spell or ability is going to stun, it shouldn't stun for dn + modifier rounds, it should just be a variable based on the spells power, and perhaps modified by the level of the origin of the power.
OK, I can buy into this. I guess we can both agree that something besides complete randomness or duration play a factor here.
-DM Jeff
I would like to toss in my two cents of not using any kind of official Action Points with PRPG.
What is it about the action points that bother you the most? Do the players have too many? Or is it that fact that if you blow the 2nd die roll, you still suck?
I know that in our Eberron game, the DM was getting annoyed because he thought we had too many action points. Above 10th level, he thought that we had more than we needed. Every time someone misses an attack, someone else at the table will say "action point it?", no matter how unimportant the foe is. I myself try to save action points to boost saving throws or reactivate my dragonmark, but some of the other players will spend action points on fairly useless things.
So our Eberron GM changed the Action point rules a bit and reduced the number that we get, so that they're more likely to "add drama" and all that.
I'm running RotRL, and I gave the players a low amount of action points. The PCs and second level now, and the each have one AP. And I've been surprised as the players tell each other to spend their one action point to try to boost an attack that missed a minor monster. I feel compelled to shout: "Shut Up! Don't waste it. This isn't even a boss fight! Just wait until you get to...uh, never mind."
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I would like to toss in my two cents of not using any kind of official Action Points with PRPG.
I don't see why Action Points would need to be core. Adding them as optional rules with some write-up for the effects you get out of them would make them available to anyone who wanted to use them while making them easier to ignore for anyone who'd rather not have them.
I do think that Action Points are more powerful if your characters level faster, since you don't have to stretch them as far. For anyone who likes the idea but thinks they're too powerful, I'd suggest either handing out fewer action points per level or increasing the amount of time it takes for your characters to level up.
I don't know much about second wind or healing surges. But I would like to see a way for PCs to heal more without a cleric.
My players seldom play clerics. They tend not to like the idea of a church or gods bossing them around.
As a result, they end up buying lots of healing potions and wands.I think that's kind of a cheesy solution.
So I'd like to see a (limited) way for PCs to non-magically recover HP.
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What is it about the action points that bother you the most? Do the players have too many? Or is it that fact that if you blow the 2nd die roll, you still suck?
A little of both, I should have been more specific. Yes, the games where I ran with Action Points by the rules (i.e. Eberron) the charactes were overloaded with them. It DID stress a new level of heroism as they tried more rediculous (and downright dumb) things expecting to survive and it made more than one scenerio "way over the top" than gritty.
But, as I said, different strokes. Some folks like high fantasy, some gritty. I feel Action Points lead more to the former, and so I think they should be optional, not core.
They also worked the game like a bum clutch, it was just one little straw that broke the DM's back. Everytime I heard "Action Point!" being called out it broke the scene for me and made it sound the same as it someone yelled out "Bingo!" or "Yahtzee!".
Many a DMs eyes rolled during the action point days of my Eberron camapign I can tell you!
-DM Jeff
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I like second wind in saga, and I think it could give a good feel to a heroic D&D system, but I suspect that combined with the increased amount of HP characters are getting(at starting level there are more, some had their class dice scaled up, toughness is better, favored classes, ect) and especially if combined with some of the other rules tossed around here for near death makes characters almost too survivable and takes some of the fear out of it.
I've got no problem with an idea like second wind being introduced(though I suspect its not OGL, but I'm sure they could develop something similar) however I would prefer that if it was brought in that some of the other rules are not included, or if they are second wind is left out. Characters, especially low level ones, can be made a bit more survivable but too much starts to be too powerful.
As for action points, I've got no problem with them. I don't use them in the campaign I'm running, but in the campaign I play in the DM does. Its a simple enough mechanic that doesn't really slow play down but does change the feel of the game a bit. I might recommend it being a sidebar as mentioned above(Want a gritty feel? No action points. High adventure? Action points), but that would mean that it would have to go for the whole system, no classes that are action point dependant(artificer or extreme explorer from eberron for instance).
An alternative for action points could be something like force points from star wars, not necessarily gaining them per level but as something handed out by the GM, either based of RP or for doing something that suits your class. In the Mastering Iron Heroes book they have a system of Glory Points that is pretty neat, giving a wide variety of modifiers you can add while still being pretty flexible.
-Tarlane
As a result, they end up buying lots of healing potions and wands.I think that's kind of a cheesy solution.
So I'd like to see a (limited) way for PCs to non-magically recover HP.
With the wand/staff/etc now becoming 'wizarding weapons' they'll need to find a way to make healing more available since wands are no longer spell mass storage devices.
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I like second wind in saga, and I think it could give a good feel to a heroic D&D system, but I suspect that combined with the increased amount of HP characters are getting [snip] and especially if combined with some of the other rules tossed around here for near death makes characters almost too survivable and takes some of the fear out of it.
Point well made. One or the other, not necessarily both, especially with the Turning/Healing thing in effect.
I've got no problem with an idea like second wind being introduced(though I suspect its not OGL, but I'm sure they could develop something similar).
It's equivalent is OGL, from the Book of Experimental Might on page 35, it's just called "Taking a Breather". Very similar overall.
I might recommend it being a sidebar as mentioned above(Want a gritty feel? No action points. High adventure? Action points), but that would mean that it would have to go for the whole system, no classes that are action point dependant(artificer or extreme explorer from eberron for instance).
Exactly!
-DM Jeff
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I would like to toss in my two cents of not using any kind of official Action Points with PRPG.What is it about the action points that bother you the most? Do the players have too many? Or is it that fact that if you blow the 2nd die roll, you still suck?
I know that in our Eberron game, the DM was getting annoyed because he thought we had too many action points. Above 10th level, he thought that we had more than we needed. Every time someone misses an attack, someone else at the table will say "action point it?", no matter how unimportant the foe is. I myself try to save action points to boost saving throws or reactivate my dragonmark, but some of the other players will spend action points on fairly useless things.
So our Eberron GM changed the Action point rules a bit and reduced the number that we get, so that they're more likely to "add drama" and all that.
I'm running RotRL, and I gave the players a low amount of action points. The PCs and second level now, and the each have one AP. And I've been surprised as the players tell each other to spend their one action point to try to boost an attack that missed a minor monster. I feel compelled to shout: "Shut Up! Don't waste it. This isn't even a boss fight! Just wait until you get to...uh, never mind."
I have a different solution for Action Points you might find useful. First, make action points static, as in they don't recharge when you level(the points themselves still work the same).
Second, go ahead and start a first level character out with five Action Points.
Third, award Action Points kinda like you would experience points, but only for characters who perform heroic deeds. Not heroic as in saving the day, but heroic as in performing an act of great skill and/or luck. Such as taking a chance with a character by having him run across a burning rope-bridge, and performing a 15-foot long-jump to reach the other side(because planks fell off) just so he can keep fighting the villain. He can be defeated in combat, or the villain could get away before the PC finishes him off, but the character still earns the Action Point for the act he performed in getting to the fight.
This way, action points are(hopefully) used more sparingly, and potentially mean something.
Also, as a side note, aren't the players supposed to declare they're going to use an action point before they roll? I know it technically says something like "before the roll has been confirmed a success or failure", but seriously, after three or four rounds of combat, a player can probably figure the DC/AC of what they need to roll to succeed within four points.
I have played with action points for about three years and really like my players to have them.
That being said a Harrow point system would be awesome! A way for a player to alter his or her characters fate. Sweet!
The record keeping of action/Harrow points was getting tedious, so I implemented a action points per session system, two action points per game session until eighth level, three action points per game session until sixteenth level an four action points per game session thereafter.
Essentially 1 + (the number of action point dice you roll) per session.
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But I would like to see a way for PCs to heal more without a cleric.
My players seldom play clerics. They tend not to like the idea of a church or gods bossing them around.
As a result, they end up buying lots of healing potions and wands.I think that's kind of a cheesy solution.
So I'd like to see a (limited) way for PCs to non-magically recover HP.
I agree.
Sorry, but mystical hitpoint recovery without a cleric or any magical means, doesn't feel like D&D at all to me. Also the second wind thingy in 4e is IMO silly.
With the cleric being able to heal through Turn Undead, so to speak, the cleric can also utilize other spells.
The game in its origin has been set out for the basic 4 person combo: fighter, thief/rogue, magic-user/wozard/mage, and cleric. Each an every one of them brings something to the group.
This flavor should be kept, if your players don't like to play clerics, use a house-rule, nothing wrong with that...at all.
If heal had more uses than merely stabilizing, fine by me, but do have healing hands, take a feat, or feat tree: 1d6 for one feat, 3d6 for 2 feats, 6d6 for three feats with a maximum of 25% of maximum HPs to heal. That would be a nice price for not wanting to play a cleric
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I have to disagree. Action points are about characters getting a little boost when it really matters at all levels. I think they probably get too many at high levels. But they make a good house rule to add if you like and don't need to be in the core rules if there is a space squeeze.
On a related note, in the game I played last night Fate points were rolled four times and EACH TIME the second roll was LOWER than the first; including a TWO that became a ONE! Fate points SUCK!!!!!
Had to get that off my chest. Please continue your civilized discussion.
Sorry, but mystical hitpoint recovery without a cleric or any magical means, doesn't feel like D&D at all to me. Also the second wind thingy in 4e is IMO silly.
I don't care either way. Second wind was an option in 3.5. There is a barbarian feat in The Quintessential Barbarian II by Mongoose. I think you need endurance to get it, but once per day you could heal you character level plus Con mod. or something like this. I know it's a splat book, but I really think it's all how you present it. It's not heal but shrugging off damage because you're tougher/stronger/healthier/stronger willed etc.
It's all in the wrapping
Fizz
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I agree.But I would like to see a way for PCs to heal more without a cleric.
My players seldom play clerics. They tend not to like the idea of a church or gods bossing them around.
As a result, they end up buying lots of healing potions and wands.I think that's kind of a cheesy solution.
So I'd like to see a (limited) way for PCs to non-magically recover HP.
I disagree... That's a lame excuse. Couldn't a wizards academy or mentor do the same thing? Could a Fighters Order or a Rogue's Guild boss them about?
The DM can use the Organizations PC's belong to for advice and occasionally have them hire/request the group do something, but shouldn't make it an everyday event. Clerical duties should be off stage for the most part and need not interfere with the adventuring cleric. However having an organization to turn to in times of need for support, advice, information, etc is a wonderful Roleplaying tool.
Not asking the Cleric to Heal is like not asking the Wizard to Teleport you somewhere.
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Easy way to have PCs recover HPs without Action Points is to have half of all damage be semi-lethal minor cuts and bruising. (Critical hits cause full damage.) This semi-lethal damage would become more lethal when the characters dropped to - hp. When you drop to negative hp from semi-lethal damage proceed as if the character had taken lethal damage. When brought back to 1 hp, recover from semi-lethal damage in the standard non-lethal damage.
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Heres some of my thougts
My group loves the action points from Unearthed Arcana. Very diverse and mixes things up. I know it is more than what you get in Eberron but I have never seen it go out of control.
Something I have always wanted to do is give Wizards some healing without making Clerics less special. I do know that there are some spells that transfer hit point from a Arcane spellcater to wounded player, but that isn't really what I like. I am of the "Aracne magic is kinda like Science" camp, which I know is hated by many DMs/players. But Wizards are always looking to tap new realms of power and positive energy is in my mind is slam dunk.
Other D20 games have come out with arcane spells that make lethal wounds non-lethal wounds. I'd like to have that option. They would never be as good a clerics, but a party could adventure without one. It could also mean the differance in keeping a Cleric alive if they drop.
You can also have armor convert a number of HP damage equal to the armor rating (max half damage, round down) converted into non-lethal. From playtesting this about two years back with 3.5, don't combine this with clerical healing. But if you want to add an 'Iron Heroes' feel to your game, this kludge works nicely.
Example: A rogue in studded leather (3 armor) gets hit by three arrows for 1, 3, and 8 points of damage. In lethal/nonlethal terms, he takes 1/0, 2/1, and 5/3, for 8 real and 4 nonlethal damage. Note that the same TOTAL damage is taken, but the nonlethal is recovered with enough rest.
As for use of the heal skill, I think that was covered by a thread under the Skills/Feats list, where options from both Star Wars and D20 Modern were considered.
Honestly, any group playing without one of the four primaries is going to need to adopt a different style of play. Groups without ready access to healing need to adopt a 'hit and run' style of dungeoneering, and specialize in things to buff their AC, even if only temporarily.
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I have no problem with action points being optional. I'll still use them in my campaigns. Action points are nice and allow for a variety of uses. Attacks and saves are only two. You can stabilize from dying, recast a spell you just cast without giving up a spell slot, and mimic a feat. And my players don't abuse them. But they most certainly help speed things up.
As for second wind in high fantasy - I don't like it. There are already a slew of ways for people to recover from wounds. This addition seems to tilt in favor of imbalance.
Also, for purposes of realism - after a grueling battle - to just 'recover'? Ick. That's what healing potions and divine casters are for.
Last - I'm not for gradients to saves. Simplicity and streamlined play are more in my areas of interest.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I thought the point of PRPG was to separate it from 4e? By instituting three of the major new concepts that it introduces (or rather, adapts from Star Wars Saga) is not what people want in a 3.x system. While we're at it, let's throw in some at-will and encounter powers, and not let you roll for hit points.
I thought the point of PRPG was to separate it from 4e?
I sincerely hope that is not THE point.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I thought the point of PRPG was to separate it from 4e?I sincerely hope that is not THE point.
Ok then, one of the point(s). But why bother to make a new system if it's just a copy of the edition they've said they're not going to support. I think that most of the new innovations in 4e (aside from the more structural power-based aspects) can be house-ruled into a 3.5 or 3.P game with very little problem. The group I play with has already started to do so to speed some things up or help boost certain aspects of the game. But at what point does one draw the line before it stops being a revision of 3.5 and starts to be a proto-4e?
I have a different solution for Action Points you might find useful. First, make action points static, as in they don't recharge when you level(the points themselves still work the same). Second, go ahead and start a first level character out with five Action Points. Third, award Action Points kinda like you would experience points, but only for characters who perform heroic deeds. Not heroic as in saving the day, but heroic as in performing an act of great skill and/or luck. Such as taking a chance with a character by having him run across a burning rope-bridge, and performing a 15-foot long-jump to reach the other side(because planks fell off)...
I like that recommendation a lot; it treats them more like the old Victory Games "hero points."
Another option for people (like me) who feel that 5 + 1/2 level, every level, is too many of them is to allow spending like 2-4 of them to completely re-roll a bad throw, instead of just adding 1d6 to it. This burns them a lot quicker.
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Ok then, one of the point(s). But why bother to make a new system if it's just a copy of the edition they've said they're not going to support. I think that most of the new innovations in 4e (aside from the more structural power-based aspects) can be house-ruled into a 3.5 or 3.P game with very little problem. The group I play with has already started to do so to speed some things up or help boost certain aspects of the game. But at what point does one draw the line before it stops being a revision of 3.5 and starts to be a proto-4e?I thought the point of PRPG was to separate it from 4e?I sincerely hope that is not THE point.
you draw the line at compatibility....
4e is completely incompatible with existing material...the entire system is changed from 3.5e
They keep terminology but they are killing so many Sacred Cows that my third eye hurts
I've been using Action Points as a heroic/RP reward system (plus occasionally for prompt attendance), but I've been handing them out in card form.
Makes them savor them a bit more, but also hoard them a bit more. Has worked so far.
If anyone is counting votes - not core, but sidebar isn't bad. Took me a good while to be convinced.
I ran action points with the last campaign I ran. My problem with them where that they made the group far to hard to challenge. As an example, the group had 7 characters and an animal companion, in many combats an area effect would effect the whole group, I'll use confusion as an example. With out the action points 1-4 characters would be confused, with action points I very often had the whole party unaffected by the confusion. This happened so many times it became a pain in the butt. It basically removed the threat of paralysis, poison, fear, confusion, negative levels and a whole host of other abilities the DM could throw at them as a different challenge from the basic damage route.
They obviously work for some playing groups, so as an option I would welcome them, but I would be very resistant to using them with a large party again, unless the amount the characters get per level scaled with the size of the group.
Second wind has intrigued me for some time, years ago I used a rule that hit points were your combat ability to turn a killing blow into a glancing blow. Based on this characters who rested would get their level back in hit points per hour, I found this greatly reduced the strain on the Clerics spell selection. We don't use that rule any more, but I do think that the increase in hit points in the Alpha and the increase in the clerics curing will probably remove this threat. Still an interesting option for extending the adventuring day, I am all in favour of that. So a thumbs up for both of them as options from me.
I ran action points with the last campaign I ran. My problem with them where that they made the group far to hard to challenge. As an example, the group had 7 characters and an animal companion, in many combats an area effect would effect the whole group, I'll use confusion as an example. With out the action points 1-4 characters would be confused, with action points I very often had the whole party unaffected by the confusion. This happened so many times it became a pain in the butt. It basically removed the threat of paralysis, poison, fear, confusion, negative levels and a whole host of other abilities the DM could throw at them as a different challenge from the basic damage route.
Got to agree here too - we used action points in our last campaign and found that waaaay too much of those "dramatic" effects such as fear, paralysis etc were often negated. As a result the group got over-confident and over reliant on their action points saving the day, rather than tactical decisions and good roleplaying. As a DM they defiantely sucked the drama and much of the threat from monsters that were more than just combat machines.
As a player I enjoyed using them to accentuate character actions and would happily burn my action points hand over fist when it felt more "cinematic" if you will, [like my Cleric of Kord shifting a massive boulder blocking a tomb entrance], but most of my fellow players would hoard them until the big confontations in the session. As a result they came across like uber-adventurers...
Core - hope not. Optional - maybe a place at this table...
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I've been using a variation on Action Points in my campaign for almost ten years. My system was more similar to Character Points from the old WEG Star Wars RPG.
My game has a heavy emphasis on religion. In most games, clerics get the chill with gods, and everyone else was kind of left out in the rain. I figured the goddess of luck, at the very least, would be particular to occasionally fancying someone who isn't a cleric. Considering the fact that luck is fairly whimsical, it puts the dispensation of such Luck Points purely on the DM.
This way, if the players are abusing them, Lady Luck could decide they aren't as interesting anymore and leave them to their own devices, or even favor their enemies instead. If the PC's are failing miserably, she might look favorably upon them and give them a little extra boost.
It's the just the way I do it. I'm certainly not saying it would work for every group out there. I support the idea of not including such a system in the core rules. I just thought I'd give my 2 cents on the subject.
I use my own variation on action points, and I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before. 1 action point can do the following:
* +3 to attack rolls, save rolls, skill rolls, ability check rolls, level checks, etc.
* Automatically gain initiative
* Deal MAX damage on a single attack
* Gain an additional follow up/single attack (melee/ranged)
* Recover a lost spell (1 AP = 1 spell level)
* Gain an additional per day usage, of some special ability/class feature/spell like ability (this includes things like additional cleric's turning ability)
On the topic of second wind: I don't use it, my players want hit points back, better have a cleric or a potion
PS - all characters get 2 initial AP (humans get 3). They gain additional AP every odd level (alternate progression: every 3 levels)