I'm hearing from many people that 4th edition D&D is very different from d20/OGL, so I have a few questions:
1.) If a third party company had developed the same rules that are in 4th edition, would the rules have been different enough to fall outside of the existing OGL?
2.) Given the following medieval fantasy RPG systems:
7th Sea
Ars Magica
d6 Fantasy
d20/OGL
Dark Ages
Dragonquest
Earthdawn
Exalted
Fireborn
Fudge
Grimm
GURPS
Hackmaster
HARP
Lejendary Adventures
Lord of the Rings
Palladium Fantasy
Rolemaster
Runequest
Sorcerer
Talislanta
Warhammer FRPG
Please pick the system(s) that is (are) most like 4th edition for each of the following RPG elements:
a.) Implements (Dice, Cards)
b.) Units of Measurement (Time, Distance)
c.) Raw Abilities
d.) Learned Skills
e.) Extraordinary/Supernatural Powers (Feats, Magic)
f.) Equipment
g.) Economics
h.) Combat Adjudication
i.) Story Control
j.) Environment Creation
I personally feel like 4th edition, as presented so far, is very close to d20 OGL in all of these respects. The departure from standard d20 rules are along the same variance as other systems published under the OGL license (WoW, True20, Conan, etc).
However, I very much look forward to seeing the logic behind other conclusions.
I don't have enough experience or knowledge of those other systems to really answer your question as you ask it, but I think the game system most similar to 4e is 3.x D&D.
I have only a passing familiarity with about half of the systems you mention. However, I can say this as a generality: as older systems, those you mention are very likely heavy on roleplaying or complex combat simulation, and lighter on the minis-on-the-battlemat, x-squares-at-a-time sytle of play. That is, they are more simulationist than gamist (at least, the systems on the list I've played are more simulationist than gamist).
Based on my own play and review of 4th Edition so far, none of the systems you mention approach the "miniatures game" structure of 4th edition. If you had thrown Warhammer 40K, Descent, or other similar games on this list, I think those would be the closest match. So, of your options, I'd have to say that d20 is probably the closest.
Judging by everything that I have read, in many ways it sounds much like Earthdawn in regards to saving throws, static HP, the ability to heal ones self, and non-magical maneuvers.
Judging by everything that I have read, in many ways it sounds much like Earthdawn in regards to saving throws, static HP, the ability to heal ones self, and non-magical maneuvers.
Interestingly, I posted a poll on EN World and so far there are a few others who feel the same way:
Can anyone familiar with the OGL post an opinion about #1?
Paizo, seeing the previews of 4th edition so far (like the D&D XP character sheets), if you had published the same material would you have needed the OGL? Or does 4th edition distinct enough that it's a brand new game?
Seems to me to be most similar to Exalted. Mostly for how it makes a player feel while in character.
Frankly, I don't think there's a single right answer to this question. All earlier editions were designed by a single or a few individuals. They had their influences and those influences were obvious for everyone. 4E, from everything we have heard about it, was designed by a large committee. There are a number of advantages, but one huge disadvantage: its a hodge-podge of influences.
Myself, being a 4 year vet of Exalted, I can clearly see Exalted's influences. But there are elements that do not mesh as clearly with Exalted. Now I am sure that Noonan and Collins and Rouse and other directed those influences, but there is no way that more influences couldn't find there way into the game.
Personally, I do believe that Exalted was actively a major influence. In 1E, you're an average person with a sword or a spell or a lock pick. In 3E, you're a little better then your NPC classes (difference between a 1 level warrior and a 1 level fighter is a single feat). 4E you're head and shoulders above everything else. That powerlevel is close to Exalted then anything else.
Seems to me to be most similar to Exalted. Mostly for how it makes a player feel while in character.
I agre, the tone is similar at the Exalted.
Would it be easier to convert Exalted adventures to 4E than it would to convert d20/OGL adventures? Which specific elements would be more difficult and why?
Do you think the 4E ruleset is adaptable enough for a lower power curve through GSL? Granted we haven't seen the license, but is it possible to remove or downgrade the available 'extraordinary powers' (feat/magic/maneuvers/etc)? Can you begin adventuring using the rules for generating commoners as your starting PC?
And does anyone have a response to question #1?
Would it be easier to convert Exalted adventures to 4E than it would to convert d20/OGL adventures?
There are no Exalted Adventures (save the free intro adventure). The Exalted audiance likes their game sandboxy, lacking a predefinied storyline. They like adventure seeds throughout their books and potential storylines for them to explore, but they are very much against pre-published adventures.
There are no Exalted Adventures (save the free intro adventure).
Would it be easier to convert Exalted characters or 3.5 characters?
There are no Exalted Adventures (save the free intro adventure).Would it be easier to convert Exalted characters or 3.5 characters?
You're going about it the wrong way. Like completely. If you played in a game of 4E, which game would it feel like more, Exalted or 3.5 or ...?
At relatively low experience, an exalted character can take over a town single handedly. A standard encounter for a single 6th level 4E character is 24 zombies (or something like that). Exalted has powers that perfectly prevents a hit from striking you. 4E has epic play where all the powers begin with "after you die..." Does any of that sound like anything from 3.5?
Feel is a reaction, and I'd like to discuss what causes the reaction.
You gave an example of the end result when comparing characters, but I'm looking at the specifics of the system.
In the d20/OGL, you can have characters that can fight 24 zombies, you can have abilities that prevent attacks from hitting you and you can have extraordinary powers that are triggered when you die.
(In fact, in our Age of Worms game, Kyuss was killed by an exploding warforged paladin.)
None of the above. It's more like Mage Knight, Warlord, D&D Minis, or Warhammer. So my vote is D&D Minis. Oh wait, that's not an RPG.
That's an interesting conclusion. Can you go into more details?
a.) Implements (Dice, Cards)
b.) Units of Measurement (Time, Distance)
c.) Raw Abilities
d.) Learned Skills
e.) Extraordinary/Supernatural Powers (Feats, Magic)
f.) Equipment
g.) Economics
h.) Combat Adjudication
i.) Story Control
j.) Environment Creation
Honestly, Takasi. The only thing I can honestly say is play exalted and then look at how 4E is marketed. Until you do, you can always say, "This is alot like 3.5." Exalted players have been screaming about how most of the latter half's of WotC's influences have been coming from their game. Play it. The similarities are GLARING.
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Honestly, Takasi. The only thing I can honestly say is play exalted and then look at how 4E is marketed. Until you do, you can always say, "This is alot like 3.5." Exalted players have been screaming about how most of the latter half's of WotC's influences have been coming from their game. Play it. The similarities are GLARING.
Are you surprised? Exalted is selling well.
Are you surprised?
No.
Actually, the system I think it is most like isn't on the list - from what I've read about 4x so far, its a WHOLE lot like Savage Worlds. Not necessarily mechanicly - although they do seem to have taken a few pages from SW's book - but more in feel: the more chaotic, back and forth combat, better underlying math & spreading power out over more levels, starting out new characters as more capable individuals, more and varied mechanics to let players have a little more control/input over scenes, the shift to a more Fast Furious Fun style of action, etc.
IMO, it still doesn't sound as good as SW, but everytime I read a WotC blog post or read someone's forum post about the changes to the game, I keep thinking, "Thats a lot like Savage Worlds".
IMO, it still doesn't sound as good as SW, but everytime I read a WotC blog post or read someone's forum post about the changes to the game, I keep thinking, "Thats a lot like Savage Worlds".
That's pretty much where I'm at. 4E doesn't sound like it is as good as Exalted to me. If I want to play Exalted, I'll play Exalted. I don't want to play a d20 version of it. When I want D&D, I WANT D&D, not something else and rolling a d20 at the same time.
Honestly, Takasi. The only thing I can honestly say is play exalted and then look at how 4E is marketed. Until you do, you can always say, "This is alot like 3.5." Exalted players have been screaming about how most of the latter half's of WotC's influences have been coming from their game. Play it. The similarities are GLARING.
Games can be 'marketed' in different ways, but in the end the system speaks for itself.
In each of the following categories, what are the similarities between Exalted and 4E?
a.) Implements (Dice, Cards)
b.) Units of Measurement (Time, Distance)
c.) Raw Abilities
d.) Learned Skills
e.) Extraordinary/Supernatural Powers (Feats, Magic)
f.) Equipment
g.) Economics
h.) Combat Adjudication
i.) Story Control
j.) Environment Creation
So far 3% of the people voting on the EN World thread say it is like Exalted, but no one has gone into detail.
Keep in mind that no one actually has the 4E books yet, so a detailed comparison seems a little premature. There are way too many 4E experts on these boards, for a game that isn't even on the shelves.
The game does better at doing what Exalted does than Exalted.
Unfortunately, it's not Dungeons and Dragons. I get the wrong flavor off it. It doesn't feel like sword and sorcery. It feels like high anime fantasy, and the flavor is hardwired into the powers and abilities.
I'm comparing some character sheets for different systems. Let's look at 4E vs 3.5 vs Exalted. 4E looks so very close to 3.5. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say they're almost compatible with one another.
Kathra Ironforge
Female dwarf fighter 1
Init +1; Senses Low-Light, Insight 12, Perception 12
Languages Common, Dwarven
--------------------
AC 19
hp 33; healing surge (13/day, 8 hp)
Fort 16, Ref 13, Will 12
--------------------
Spd 25 ft
Melee warhammer +6 (1d10+5)
Ranged handaxe +6 (1d6+5, range 25 ft)
Atk Options - Combat Challenge (enemy -2 attack vs allies), Combat Challenge (aoo vs 5' steps), Combat Superiority (+2 vs aoo, prevent movement)
Exploits
At will - Cleave (3 damage to adjacent target on hit), Tide of Iron (use shield to push target 5' on hit)
1/encounter - Passing Attack (on hit 5' step after attack and/or attack secondary target)
1/day - Brute Strike (triple base weapon damage)
--------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
SQ Cast-Iron Stomach (+5 save vs poison), Dwarven Resilience, Stand Your Ground (resist forced movement, save to prevent knocked prone)
Feats Dwarven Weapon Training
Skills Acrobatics -1, Athletics +6, Endurance +9, Heal +7, Insight +2, Perception +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +4
Equipment Scale Armor, heavy shield, warhammer, 2 handaxes, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days' trail rations, 50 ft. of hempen rope, waterskin
Kathra Ironforge
Female dwarf fighter 1
Init +1; Senses Darkvision, Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, Dwarven
--------------------
AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16; +4 vs giants
hp 14 (1 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +2; +2 vs poison, +2 vs spells
--------------------
Spd 20 ft
Melee warhammer +4 (1d8+3)
Ranged handaxe +2 (1d4+3 / x3, range 20 ft)
Atk options +1 to hit vs orcs and goblinoids, power attack, cleave (attack adjacent target after dropping opponent)
Base Atk +1; Grp +4
--------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
SQ Stonecunning, Weapon Familiarity (dwarven waraxe), Stability (+4 vs bull rush or trip)
Feats Power Attack, Cleave
Skills Climb +1, Intimidate +3
Equipment Scale Armor, heavy shield, warhammer, 2 handaxes, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days' trail rations, 50 ft. of hempen rope, waterskin
Kathra Ironforge
Caste Dawn, Concept Mercenary
Attributes Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 4, Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 3, Perception 3, Intelligence 3, Wits 3
Abilities
Dawn - Archery 2, Brawl 2, Martial Arts 0, Melee 4, Thrown 0
Zenith - Endurance 1, Performance 1, Presence 0, Resistance 0, Survival 0
Twilight - Crafts 0, Investigation 0, Lore 1, Medicine 1, Occult 0
Night - Athletics 1, Awareness 1, Dodge 1, Larceny 0, Stealth 0
Eclipse - Bureacracy 1, Linguistics 2, Ride 3, Sail 0, Socialize 1
Advantages
Allies 2, Backing 1, Contacts 2, Followers 4, Resources 3
Charms
Excellent Strike, Hungry Tiger Technique, Fire and Stones Strike, Golden Essense Block, Dipping Swallow Defense, Respect-Commanding Attitude, Body Mending Meditation, Master Horseman's Eye, Spirit Steadying Assurance, Ox-Body Technique
Weapons
Greatsword (Spd 6, Acc 9, DMG 10L, PRY 6)
Willpower 5
Virtues
Compassion 2, Temperance 2, Conviction 2, Valor 3
Flaws Foolhardy, Contempt
Anima Bonfire of the Pyre
Health Soak B 12, L 8, A 6
Essence 2, Personal 15, Peripheral 23