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CWM, having failed to explain your reading of the subtext, would you care to make a further comment?
Huh? ....waiting!...
Sorry - I do not spend every waking moment here. Anyway.
The implication in the OP is that your choice of RPG is so personal and so emotional that anyone who actually cares will be upset by the change.
I disagree with the overall message in the OP regarding the 3E/4E divide.
The subtext is that those staying with 3E care about D&D and those that want to play 4E do not.
You must be reading between lines that I don't see.
I'm going to theorize that vehement supporters of Paizo remaining 3.x already realize that Paizo is switching to 4th edition at some point. Also, the poo-pooing of WOTC as a company has been a lovely tradition on these boards, so the fact that it is now off limits is a gentle reminder of this.
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Rather, the 3e folks are simply more aware at present of what they are loosing than the 4e folks can be precisely certain of all that they will gain.
Though I do not count myself as a 4E advocate, I can safely say that this is simply not true.
I am done with 3.5 so I am not losing anything. I look forward to reading 4E as it is my last best hope to remain a D&D player. I will certainly feel loss if 4E does not work for me, because unlike you, I have no edition to fall back on.
For me its either 4E or I say adios to D&D until 5E.
The "loss" that you're talking about isn't really a true loss, except for the potential of future material that people might or might not use.
By going to 4E, people haven't actually lost anything. It's a perception of loss. Those who love 3.5 (or older editions) can still actually play those editions. Those who look forward to 4E, that's their choice as well, and they haven't lost anything in the process of making that choice.
Given the larger picture, which is expressed better by the expanded quote, by thinking of everything you still have and can continue to use, by thinking of other games that people often play on other days, it's definitely easy to see why -anyone- might have difficulty understanding an individual's choice to fight bitterly with someone over an updated version of a game rather than play either the old or the new version of the game.
But there is a loss. If I don't put in my two cents over and over again as loudly as I can, then Paizo might not go the way I'm going with the edition change, and that is a direct loss to me. It's a loss of product which does not yet exist, but it's still a loss. Second Darkness can no longer be mine, but it could have. And so on.
If I was interested in thinking of everything I already have and can continue to use, why would I want a subscription to Pathfinder? Paizo is probably going to have to make a choice, and whichever way they go, some of their customers will essentially become incapable of continuing to be their customers. I don't buy Pathfinder because I need a 3.5 adventure path to run; if that was all I needed, I'd just get Shackled City or something. I buy Pathfinder because it's the best material available, and if that material becomes inaccessible to me, then that is my loss. Any argument for why I shouldn't worry about Paizo products being the wrong edition for me is also an argument for why I shouldn't bother buying Paizo products even when they're the right edition.
Not even the newest videogame consols would think of doing that. My PS3 still plays PS1& PS2 games. Why? Because they recognise that there is still some good stuff in the old systems.
That's a really unfortunate example. You must have been an early adopter of the PS3, because all the more recent models don't have PS2 backwards compatibility. If people want to play a PS2 game, they'll play it on their PS2; if they don't have a PS2, then they wouldn't have any PS2 games. Similarly, you need an X-Box to play most X-Box titles; the 360's backwards computability is notorious for having no support whatsoever for some of the best titles for the original X-Box. So, there you go; two of the three newest videogame consoles have limited or no backwards computability. They recognize that there is still some good stuff in the old systems, yes, and they'll release an updated version of that stuff through LIVE or Marketplace, where you can buy it a second time.
Firstly, I applaud the attempt to encompass as many issues as the OP does in one post...there are a lot of moving parts that have gone toward even creating this thread. This kind of lengthy post, to me and even in it's incompleteness, is highly desirable over many kinds of shorter posts that don't seem fully developed. At least we can all see how the OP comes up with the mental steps involved in reaching his/her viewpoint.
That said, throughout this thread the OP has a problem with the arguement build. Weather knowingly or not, OP begins by utilizing a school of philosophy called deconstructivism. One of the schools of literary criticism that one can apply to pieces of text to derive meaning (see also sign/signifier guy...Saussure i think).
The trick is to take a little slice of a large context and explode it. European style where explode = to drill down or explore more completely. It is both the jumping off point for such an argument and it's final conclusion. Typically, this involves exploring ALL possible angles of a the said material to end up saying: "And, after all of that...THIS is the meaning of Lisa's comment!" In a solid argument, it's good to take a linear approach to arriving at your conclusion (what one wants to impress on others).
Here the OP uses said material as a platform to jump off of and goes the opposite direction of deconstructionist rhetoric...instead of exploring an interpretation of the words, instead, explores quickly introduced memes pulled from several different thoughts, feelings, ideas, and actual events that have occurred as far back as the creation of 3e and as recent as moderation on message boards at Paizo (as far as i can tell). Heh, I like to call this the phylomemetic tree build *TM* and looks kinda like the USDA Food pyramid if you consider it graphically.
Problem is...the further away one gets from the actual words that Lisa Stevens says (point of the triangle) the more assumptions one has to make to jump from meme to meme and end up at a conclusion (more on this to come). The same Lisa Stevens quote can be approached the exact same way and end up at largely different conclusions!
I guess what i'm trying to say is that there are so many assumptions to consider in the OP arguement, that it is:
1) difficult to make sense of
2) too wide of an arguement to be convincing (at least to me) and
3) confounding to find the actual point of the post. What's the point? If i had to guess, it would be somewhere in the ballpark of this quote:
"Given what I hope is your new found understanding, I would like to suggest to you that you revisit your quick agreement with the original poster of “Is this board really how Paizo wants to be represented?”
As ever,
ACE
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My point: if anyone can politely tell me why this topic requires an activist stance, please do.The answer for my part is on two fronts......
I would also like to add my personal reasoning for the stance.
Paizo hasn't totally decided whether they are going 4E or sticking with 3.5 or doing their own D20 thing. I want to sway them. Plain and simple. I want something so I am trying get someone that produces a quality product to produce that product for my personal tastes. I don't hate 4E. I won't play it but I don't hate it. It isn't my taste. WOTC, and several other 3rd party publishers are there stating that they are gonna be doing 4E stuff. I want Paizo to stick with something for me, 3.5 or their own D20 based game.That's why I think you see anti-4E activist's on these boards so much. We want Paizo to cast their lots in with us.
IMO of course.
But there is a loss. If I don't put in my two cents over and over again as loudly as I can, then Paizo might not go the way I'm going with the edition change, and that is a direct loss to me. It's a loss of product which does not yet exist, but it's still a loss. Second Darkness can no longer be mine, but it could have. And so on.
With respect, isn't the majority of a module/product the art, the story, the ideas and not simply the "crunch" factor? Sure, it's great to have ready-to-go monsters and combat. But that's not all that makes for DnD, or a good roleplaying game.
It's really interesting that people think this is an actual loss before much of anything has happened. It's a potential loss of "immediately ready crunch", that's all I'm seeing. But that doesn't mean new material can't be adapted to an older system, and it doesn't mean that old material can't be adapted to a new system. How often do people throw out "canon" or overlay their own house rules onto a current rules system? I'm going to guess it's in the ballpark of "all the time".
Furthermore, with respect to "loss", there isn't any guarantee that you or others will like 4E material (regardless of the rules system), and there certainly isn't any guarantee that you'll buy it or use it. It might not appeal to you, or your players may get jazzed by something completely different that rolls out from another company. If you don't know what the material will be, and if there's no guarantee that you'll use or even buy it, that's just not a "loss". It's a choice.
As an example, I loathe the changes intended for the Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean I have to use the new material. In many ways, this update to 4E frees me from sticking rigidly to future changes that I or my players might deem unpalatable for my games, or wouldn't fit with our house rules. It's very unlikely that I'll go 4E for rules, but even if I did there's no reason I'd have to use the new Realms. Have I lost anything with respect to the Realms? Not at all. As additional material comes out, it's my personal decision whether or not I incorporate it into my Realms. Nothing is "lost" except for the things I choose not to use (and that's not a loss, it's a choice).
Not even the newest videogame consols would think of doing that. My PS3 still plays PS1& PS2 games. Why? Because they recognise that there is still some good stuff in the old systems.That's a really unfortunate example. You must have been an early adopter of the PS3, because all the more recent models don't have PS2 backwards compatibility. If people want to play a PS2 game, they'll play it on their PS2; if they don't have a PS2, then they wouldn't have any PS2 games. Similarly, you need an X-Box to play most X-Box titles; the 360's backwards computability is notorious for having no support whatsoever for some of the best titles for the original X-Box. So, there you go; two of the three newest videogame consoles have limited or no backwards computability. They recognize that there is still some good stuff in the old systems, yes, and they'll release an updated version of that stuff through LIVE or Marketplace, where you can buy it a second time.
Actually, even if you didn't get a PS3 that plays PS2 games, you can download the system with an internet connection. No, I waited almost a year to get my PS3. But the PS2 did play PS1 games.
Also along the activist line . . .you know WoTC is making 4e, so how does being active against it further either of your hopes/reasons for being activist agains it?
Because sitting quietly by while they do this is the same as giving your blessing. At least by speaking out WotC and Paizo will know that not everyone is happy to be lining up against what is in my opinon a bad idea.
...Is that clear enough?That was great! I understood everything you wrote, and not once did you have to allude to jackboots, imbeciles, incompetents, or fascists; not once did you need to remark on the genetics, upbringing, parenting, or education of any individual; and not once did you need to patently insult any company, organization, writer, or poster who might disagree with you.
I mean all of the above illustratively, Blackdragon; I don't mean that you have engaged in any of it.
Your response to me was argumentative and advocative, but not activistic or inflammatory. I wish all the discussion could be thus.
Thank you. The way that I feel is that the only way WotC is going to change their decision is if I vote with my wallet. I won't buy their products. That's not to say that I won't support GSL companies (Provided they don't use Delve format.) But given the size of Hasbro, I feel that if 4E doesn't make enough money they will shelf it. And I would rather see the D&D brand shelved than to continue down the path it's headed. It's lost it's roots.
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... I want Paizo to stick with something for me, 3.5 or their own D20 based game. That's why I think you see anti-4E activist's on these boards so much. We want Paizo to cast their lots in with us. IMO of course.
Another great explanation, and very reasonably put.
I should clarify: I'm labeling the divisive and inflammatory arguments as 'activist', that is to say, the arguments that put more effort in belittling, deriding and insulting, rather than arguing and informing.
I should have been in bed hours ago, so I'll try and keep this short.
I think that GVDammerung not only took Lisa's statement way too literally but also misunderstood it.
First of all I don't think Lisa is incapable of understanding why someone would be upset about a change in editions and I don't see the point in trying to make it seem as if she literally doesn't understand such a concept.
Secondly, I believe that Lisa was talking about how if someone on a message board you frequent were to choose another edition to play it wouldn't affect your game in any way whatsoever. That's where the "threat" part comes in. How does Billybobjoe from halfway across the globe playing 3e or 4e change your game in any way?
Now whether Paizo continues to publish 3e products or only 4e products is another worry all together, but that has absolutely nothing to do with those you're "talking" to on a message board.
I've said it before, in the now infamous "Is this how..." thread, but I really do believe it all comes down to fear of not having cool Paizo stuff for the edition of your choice.
That doesn't make it OK to belittle those who decide to keep playing 3e or going to 4e, though!
So, to sum it up, whether someone else plays 3e or 4e isn't a "threat" to you - whether Paizo decides to publish 3e or 4e stuff IS, so direct your concerns their way instead of being antagonistic towards your fellow board members (no, this is not a suggestion to attack Paizo instead!).
I know, I'm basically saying what etrigan said above, so in some ways this is an elaborate QFT of his post.
(I'm sorry if the above doesn't make any sense, I'm already half asleep so it's a wonder if I'm even able to post it) :-)
Just noticed this thread.
I found it very amusing that an "Open Letter To Lisa Stevens" has 60+ replies from... other people. Unless all of you are named Lisa Stevens? :-)
I'm sure she loves message board review time when she gets to work Monday mornings. Jeepers. Such drama.
She actually tried to reply today, but was prevented from doing so by the latest message board glitch.
I can't post to the Lisa's Stevens thread either! And it was aimed at me! :) I guess I will have to wait until tomorrow, or perhaps I will miraculously get permission to post when I get back home tonight. Sigh.
-Lisa
Did you skip the first 3/4ths of the original post?I skipped the whole dang thing. I'm going to assume it was an excerpt of his dissertation on Medieval cotton farming. To which I say: balderdash! You have obviously never picked cotton in a pair of winkle-pickers in your life!
But really, if you gotta kvetch at least keep it short.
When a game goes out of print and new support is discontinued, people stop playing the game. It's an observed fact.
A reduction in the player base means the fans of the OOP, unsupported game will have a harder time playing it, because RPGs are a social activity.
In the case of D&D 3.5, the OGL uniquely creates the opportunity for the game to survive the publisher's decision to drop it. A "white knight" company could both keep the core rules in print (with new material to replace things left out of the SRD) and produce new material for the game, preserving 3.5 on a smaller but stable, non-dwindling scale.
Of the candidate companies to serve as a white knight, Paizo is the strongest in size and reputation. As long as it has not definitively decided to switch to 4e, it is the best hope for people who like 3.5 and do not like 4e.
The best way to convince Paizo to stick with 3.5 is to convince Paizo that there are lots of people who want to give it money for staying with 3.5. The best way to convince Paizo to switch to 4e is to convince Paizo that there are lots of people who want to give it money for sswitching to 4e.
Accordingly, each and every person who communicates to Paizo that they're switching to 4e is a direct threat to the best and strongest hope that fans of 3.5 have for the saving of something they're fans of from a future of unremitting decline.
I think understanding why someone feels or acts a certain way is critical to understanding motivation. Situations alter all things, IMO. Its not about having a "good reason" for being a jerk, IMO, but about why someone might behave like one when in other circumstances they would be entirely pleasant. If its jerk for jerk sake - its hammer time! If there is more to it, and in this case I think there is for the reasons set out, I think the appropriate response is not so clear and should certainly be carefully measured against the knowledge of what is behind the situation. How we got to a pass and where we go from there are IMO as important as the fact that we have come to a particular point. Does that make sense?
In short. No.
As soon as the line is crossed, as a list admin I don't care about motivation, there are no extenuating circumstances. You either obey the list rules or you don't and the chips fall where they may. I am very clear in my rules what is acceptable and what is not. Everyone reads them before joining and they are sent out to the list on a monthly basis.
Does this mean I auto-ban people or delete their posts, no. It means that a warning is sent in private at the first sign of violation. I also post publicly that the issue is being handled off line and no one is to respond to it. Thread closures are rare events only used to stop an all out brawl and individual action will not stop it quick enough.
The only time I suspended a member of my forums is when he tried to backtalk me publicly on the list saying he was perfectly justified in defying the list rules and that I didn't know how to properly run a mailing list. My response was swift and to the letter of the list rules. He never did it again and eventually moved on to somewhere else.
So you can try to find the wiggle room all you want on my lists but I will not play that game. As soon as I give one person special consideration everyone will demand it. Thus, all are punished equally. Everyone knows what to expect, there are no surprises. Its harsh but fair. And not surprisingly I rarely am forced to invoke it. In three years of running about 6 mailing lists (most being RPGA related) I had to step in 15-20 times and issue a warning. I closed maybe 5 threads out of a total of hundreds. Only one suspension. No bans*.
* = This does not include spammers who slip through the new member screening. Spamming the list with off topic ads (no I don't need online Viagra) is an auto-ban offense, as these people never joined the list for its intended purpose I don't count them as full member bans.
In Service,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
CEO
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GV:
Thanks for the post. When I wrote that I didn't understand the threat, what I was trying to get across is that I didn't understand the vehemence that people felt for other folks who felt differently than they do. I have been a gamer for a long, long time. I stuck with 1e when TSR came out with 2e. I am a long time Greyhawk fan who has seen my campaign of choice go away, come back, go away, and come back more times than I can count. And through it all, I never felt any ill will to people playing 2e or folks who liked the Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft or Planescape. I made my choices and stuck with them. I didn't have to like the fact that both my game system and my campaign world were going away, but that didn't mean that I needed to attack the folks who were pleased with the new edition and a brand spanking new campaign setting.
With Greyhawk, we all just banded together and created our own content. Some of the best and brightest minds came together to create some really sweet stuff for Greyhawk. Heck, the AOL 'Hawk boards were where I found Erik Mona back in the 90's.
OK, so I can understand the anger and fear. I just don't understand what is accomplished by lashing out on our messageboards. Paizo isn't going to make any decisions based solely on what we read on the messageboards and angry shouting isn't more likely to get us to side with you. Rational discussion is more likely to sway us than highly negative ranting. But the bottom line is that we are going to make the decision that we think will be in the best interests of Paizo and its customers for the long haul. I think we have a track record of being pretty good at doing this. We don't make rash or hasty decisions and when we do decide, you can believe that we have hashed things out long and hard. You guys expect this of us. If we just jumped headfirst into a decision without giving it good thought, I am sure you would be as disappointed with us as I would be.
The moderation of the 4e threads was not in reaction to the guy who posted in the "Is This How Paizo Wants Its Boards To Be" thread. Just look at the date of my sticky post on the top of the 4e thread. This has been building for a while. We just want ALL of our messageboards to be full of interactive dialogue between friends. We don't all have to agree. There is nothing that says you can't disagree with me, with WotC, with anybody. Just do it in a civilized manner. Is that really so hard?
In closing, I hope that you can look back on this time from a point in the future and say that Paizo really handled things well. Not everyone is going to agree with what we do, because we can't be everything to everybody, but I hope that even the folks who don't agree with us will at least feel that we handled it well.
-Lisa
This is exactly the kind of thoughtful response that we have come to appreciate. Thank you.
And through it all, I never felt any ill will to people playing 2e or folks who liked the Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft or Planescape.
Though I noticed you didn't mention those crusty jugglers that played Spelljammer...
Shall I beat them senseless now, Ms. Stevens?
Shall I beat them senseless now, Ms. Stevens?
** spoiler omitted **
Perhaps a good smiting is in order?
And no more cracks from ridiculous aliases - they just inflame the situation.
Move along.
And no more cracks from ridiculous aliases - they just inflame the situation.
Move along.
I agree! Order must be maintained!
The implication in the OP is that your choice of RPG is so personal and so emotional that anyone who actually cares will be upset by the change.
I think his post quite clearly states that all players are "predisposed" to care. Then he explains why the holdouts are upset and those who have embraced 4 are not. He acknowledges that pro-4E posters are nothing but praiseful, which would seem to concede that they care.
I don't know. I guess when my wife comes home and says "I work so hard" I can accuse her of implying that it is not hard for me, but that would really strain our relationship.
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Not even the newest videogame consols would think of doing that. My PS3 still plays PS1& PS2 games. Why? Because they recognise that there is still some good stuff in the old systems.That's a really unfortunate example. You must have been an early adopter of the PS3, because all the more recent models don't have PS2 backwards compatibility. If people want to play a PS2 game, they'll play it on their PS2; if they don't have a PS2, then they wouldn't have any PS2 games. Similarly, you need an X-Box to play most X-Box titles; the 360's backwards computability is notorious for having no support whatsoever for some of the best titles for the original X-Box.
But Wii, the system with the most sales, has backwards compatibility.... coincidence? and I have 20 PS2 games but my PS2 died, therefore I am the person without the PS2 wanting backward compat on ps3 (although, I've played more smash brothers last week than I had played PS2 in the past year)
*Yawn*
Unless all of you are named Lisa Stevens? :-)
I'm Lisa Stevens!
And so is my wife!
I'm sure she loves message board review time when she gets to work Monday mornings. Jeepers. Such drama.
Yup. More to-do ... about nothing.
Unless all of you are named Lisa Stevens? :-)
I'm Lisa Stevens!
And so is my wife!
No, I am Lisa Stevens!
OP,
Look at the power Lisa Stevens has over you.
The time you spent crafting your posts proves your devotion and concern.
But, I think she is taken and probably very busy.
Don’t let anxiety over come you! You are not alone, we will play with you and be your friends.
:-)
Come over to the chatroom, and we can all talk through your feelings, so you can find peace. [ chat.dmtools.org ]
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The implication in the OP is that your choice of RPG is so personal and so emotional that anyone who actually cares will be upset by the change.I think his post quite clearly states that all players are "predisposed" to care. Then he explains why the holdouts are upset and those who have embraced 4 are not. He acknowledges that pro-4E posters are nothing but praiseful, which would seem to concede that they care.
I don't know. I guess when my wife comes home and says "I work so hard" I can accuse her of implying that it is not hard for me, but that would really strain our relationship.
Maybe you are seeing something that i am not. The overall tone of the post is that caring gamers choose 3E. I do not see any indication that the OP understands the point of view of those who are looking forward to 4E.
I will read it again (third or fourth time now) but I don't expect to come to any other conclusion.
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Just read it again.
3E is portrayed as unique. It is associated with caring, creative, and loyal gamers.
4E is portrayed as different with no mention of any positive attributes.
The conclusion of the post is - do not moderate this board because it diminishes the 3E crowds capacity to shout down the 4E crowd.
So, as eloquent as the OP was my conclusion is the same - 4E gamers just don't care. Now you can add to that - 4E gamers are not loyal and may lack creativity.
So where was the part that you see that I missed?
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But Wii, the system with the most sales, has backwards compatibility.... coincidence? and I have 20 PS2 games but my PS2 died, therefore I am the person without the PS2 wanting backward compat on ps3 (although, I've played more smash brothers last week than I had played PS2 in the past year)
Wayyyy off topic..
Sony still makes a Backward compatible PS3, the new 80 gig PS3 is Backward compatible. The new 40 Gig is not.
Edit: the 80/60(PAL) Gig Uses a Software emulation for Backward compatible, the old 20/60(NTSC) GiG where Hardware Backward compatible.
OK, so I can understand the anger and fear. I just don't understand what is accomplished by lashing out on our messageboards.
Because some people feel that it's all they have left. WotC has made it very clear that they're not listening to decenting ideas. And there is this group floating around the boards that will by anything that has a D&D logo on it regardless of its content. I'm tired of hearing the word 'grognard' thrown at me because I don't like a new rules system. Honestly I could care less what is done with the rules. My overridding anger is at what is being done to Forgotten Realms, and the attacks on the setting by people who didn't like it in the first place. My concern is what Paizo is going to do with Pathfinder because I have really enjoyed the world you have created. My greatest fear is that you are going to trash your world to cram it into the little box that WotC has created for it's core world (If you can call it that) and cosmology.
Why do people lash out? We lash out when people keep telling us that everything is fine and that we should just get on board with the new system. Fall in lock step, march with us. You wouldn't want to be different, would you? You don't want to be a grognard do you? It is an end result of the feeling of being pushed in a direction that you don't want to go by everyone around you. It is that feeling of uncertainty, coupled with a deep emotionaly attachment to the game and what it stands for.
Why do people lash out? We lash out when people keep telling us that everything is fine and that we should just get on board with the new system. Fall in lock step, march with us. You wouldn't want to be different, would you? You don't want to be a grognard do you? It is an end result of the feeling of being pushed in a direction that you don't want to go by everyone around you. It is that feeling of uncertainty, coupled with a deep emotionaly attachment to the game and what it stands for.
Here, F'n here!
Or, QFT for everyone else.
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Why do people lash out? We lash out when people keep telling us that everything is fine and that we should just get on board with the new system. Fall in lock step, march with us. You wouldn't want to be different, would you? You don't want to be a grognard do you? It is an end result of the feeling of being pushed in a direction that you don't want to go by everyone around you. It is that feeling of uncertainty, coupled with a deep emotionaly attachment to the game and what it stands for.
I would not want anyone to feel compelled to adopt 4E. Those that choose to stick with it are doing so for their own legitimate reasons. They should not, under any circumstances, be ridiculed for their choice.
That being said I would also add that for those looking hopefully towards 4E the lashing being dealt cannot be justified.
Critical comments about 4E are not at issue. You may lash away at 4E all you want - within the bounds of the board rules. It is the anger directed at the individuals that are choosing not to stick with 3E that needs to stop.
Let people play whatever game they want to play.
I understand why people are upset at the prospect of losing support for 3E. I understand that there is a deep emotional attachment to the game. But that is no reason to lash out at anyone.
I can only speak for myself of course.
I dont give a hoot what RPG other people are playing. Just like Ms.Stevens I do not begrudge people who play in Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms even though I like playign in Greyhawk.
So I equally dont care if other D&D players use 4th edition, 2nd edition, Hackmaster or Castles and Crusades as their system.
The only time I get a strong opinion or a dislike of 4th edition is when it effects my 3rd edition game.
Admitadly this will not happen often. You play your game and I'll play mine.
...BUT...
I cant speak for everyone, but I think the #1 reson things get heated and the pro-4th people and con-4th people butt heads is because of Pathfinder.
"If 4th edition is getting released and it is vastly different (in a bad way IMO) to 3.5 thats fine. I will keep playing 3rd and move on with my life. No one is going to take my books away or force me to switch (as the popular argument goes).
....Wait a minute...4th edition may be responsible for taking Golarion and Pathfinder away from me?? Oh hell no!! Its on now!"
Maybe Im really wrong. But I think a big part of the "fighting" isnt because of "3rd edition vs 4th edition". I think its really because of "Pathfinder going 3rd edition vs Pathfinder going 4th edition".
Once Paizo makes its decision* I feel things will be better. One side will cheer and the other will cry and probably not post here anymore. Just give it a few more weeks. It will get really crazy for a week or two once the decision is announced..then the nasty debates will stop.
*I understand that this is out of paizo's hands. I am well versed in the whole GSL situtaion. Just making sure you all know I dont blame Paizo for not deciding yet.
OK, so I can understand the anger and fear. I just don't understand what is accomplished by lashing out on our messageboards.Because some people feel that it's all they have left. WotC has made it very clear that they're not listening to decenting ideas. And there is this group floating around the boards that will by anything that has a D&D logo on it regardless of its content. I'm tired of hearing the word 'grognard' thrown at me because I don't like a new rules system. Honestly I could care less what is done with the rules. My overridding anger is at what is being done to Forgotten Realms, and the attacks on the setting by people who didn't like it in the first place. My concern is what Paizo is going to do with Pathfinder because I have really enjoyed the world you have created. My greatest fear is that you are going to trash your world to cram it into the little box that WotC has created for it's core world (If you can call it that) and cosmology.
Why do people lash out? We lash out when people keep telling us that everything is fine and that we should just get on board with the new system. Fall in lock step, march with us. You wouldn't want to be different, would you? You don't want to be a grognard do you? It is an end result of the feeling of being pushed in a direction that you don't want to go by everyone around you. It is that feeling of uncertainty, coupled with a deep emotionaly attachment to the game and what it stands for.
Again, why does that give people the right to be rude, obnoxious, and insulting? There are plenty of people on these boards who feel that way and can argue and complain without being insulting. Be angry, be upset, but don't insult people. There is no reason people can't be polite and civil other than not wanting to or not trying to.
The way some people talk you'd think this was life or death. Maybe we should get off the computer and go walk in the real world for a while. Do some volunteer work, sponsor a food drive, or protest atrocities in Darfur. Something meaningful.
I've been around for the inception of quite a few messageboards and they all, to a fault, followed the same pattern.
Phase 1: Small membership, no moderation, lots of in-jokes, feeling of camaraderie.
Phase 2: Stagnation, membership drive, surge in popularity.
Phase 3: Lots of posters, loss of some of the 'small-family' feeling, lots of excitement -- a honeymoon phase.
Phase 4: Some b+@~&$*@ issue causes a rift and a bunch of established posters leave in a huff. Usually form their own board or join some small and 'uncorrupted' board.
Phase 5: New posters come, old ones are forgotten, boards continue on as normal.
So I really don't care if some people leave. Sorry if that sounds heartless, but with all the comments about feeling 'betrayed' and 'this isn't the same boards I used to love', I have no idea why those people would stay. To try and make us feel bad? To try and effect change? If it's the latter, there needs to be a civil and organized methodology. Random posts and heated argument just lead to confusion, more moderation, and potential bans.
-Amber S.
I agree with GVD 95%. Thank you for the post.
My only disagreement is that while putting the genie back in the bottle may be nigh impossible I accept Paizos decision to request that the genie constrain it's behaviour somewhat. I do not follow the boards cloely enough to have seen examples of moderation and I note GVD says he/she is in favor of some level of moderation if necessary, just that the moderation seems to be a bit heavy handed - so I dont know if I even disagree here.
Uhh, Genies GRANT wishes. They don't take them away.
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The way some people talk you'd think this was life or death. Maybe we should get off the computer and go walk in the real world for a while. Do some volunteer work, sponsor a food drive, or protest atrocities in Darfur. Something meaningful.
I've been around for the inception of quite a few messageboards and they all, to a fault, followed the same pattern.
Phase 1: Small membership, no moderation, lots of in-jokes, feeling of camaraderie.
Phase 2: Stagnation, membership drive, surge in popularity.
Phase 3: Lots of posters, loss of some of the 'small-family' feeling, lots of excitement -- a honeymoon phase.
Phase 4: Some b%#!%*#% issue causes a rift and a bunch of established posters leave in a huff. Usually form their own board or join some small and 'uncorrupted' board.
Phase 5: New posters come, old ones are forgotten, boards continue on as normal.
So I really don't care if some people leave. Sorry if that sounds heartless, but with all the comments about feeling 'betrayed' and 'this isn't the same boards I used to love', I have no idea why those people would stay. To try and make us feel bad? To try and effect change? If it's the latter, there needs to be a civil and organized methodology. Random posts and heated argument just lead to confusion, more moderation, and potential bans.
-Amber S.
Excellent post Amber. And maybe its just me, but I haven't seen you posting here in a while. Its good to have you back.
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Uhh, Genies GRANT wishes. They don't take them away.I agree with GVD 95%. Thank you for the post.
My only disagreement is that while putting the genie back in the bottle may be nigh impossible I accept Paizos decision to request that the genie constrain it's behaviour somewhat. I do not follow the boards cloely enough to have seen examples of moderation and I note GVD says he/she is in favor of some level of moderation if necessary, just that the moderation seems to be a bit heavy handed - so I dont know if I even disagree here.
Unless they are mean-genies.
4E is portrayed as different with no mention of any positive attributes.
How can anyone that is not on the inside with the design of the system? As has been said multiple times, we don't know what the system will look like. For example, if they say, "We are fixing grapple in 4th edition." What does that mean? What does it mean to 'fix' it? They are making it different perhaps, but will their 'fix' be what you desire? Or will be an even worse system (*cough* SW:SAGA *cough*)?
Frankly, I believe that in the depths of their hearts, those that are super gun-ho for 4th edition, players and publishers, are actually quite scared. For they know that it is just as likely that 4th edition will bomb, and bomb bad. Oh sure it will start out ok, but it might not last past the first 3 books or so, which would be really bad for 3rd party publishers who have already committed. At this point they are trying to convince each other that 4th edition is going to be awesome. 4th-fan, "Magic missile every round, isn't that great!" 3.5 player, "You know I can create a wand of magic missile and fire it every round right now with 3.5." 4th-fan, "Stop hating on us!"
We'll see, maybe 4th WILL be awesome. But it might instead suck, and we are going to see alot of those people that jumped on the bandwagon feeling tricked and disheartened. I actually feel sorry for them, and the stress they are going through. Me, I know I'm sticking with a proven system. And even if Paizo switches, I still will probably buy old material from here. Heck I haven't bought any of the modules, so once I stop buying Pathfinder, I can go back and buy those (maybe on the cheap even).
Again, why does that give people the right to be rude, obnoxious, and insulting? There are plenty of people on these boards who feel that way and can argue and complain without being insulting. Be angry, be upset, but don't insult people. There is no reason people can't be polite and civil other than not wanting to or not trying to.
I'm not saying it give people a right to be insulting, inflamitory, or cruel. What I am saying is it is human nature that we you feel cornered or threatened to lash out. People make the assumption that everyone has the exact same coping mechanisims to deal with stress and anger. They don't. You also can't assume that everyone will function at the same level of articulate speech and be able to convey their thoughts without giving in to rage. I'm not condoning it, but the behavious not surprising.
The way some people talk you'd think this was life or death. Maybe we should get off the computer and go walk in the real world for a while. Do some volunteer work, sponsor a food drive, or protest atrocities in Darfur. Something meaningful.
And this type of insult is helpful how? You answer to these people is "Get a life!"
I think this type of response is where part of the rage is comming from.
Again, why does that give people the right to be rude, obnoxious, and insulting? There are plenty of people on these boards who feel that way and can argue and complain without being insulting. Be angry, be upset, but don't insult people. There is no reason people can't be polite and civil other than not wanting to or not trying to.
Woah. Hold on a moment. I am not pretending to be speaking for Blackdragon here, but I don't think s/he was arguing for, advocating, or in any other way supporting people being rude, obnoxious, or insulting.
I feel Blackdragon was attempting to answer a question, in an honest fashion.
And now that I have had some breakfast, I think I can add some further insight.
While Paizo/Lisa Stevens/etc. might not understand it, they really should start expecting a backlash everytime a/any company "threatens" to take away something we have come to enjoy.
There was lashing out with the cancellation of the print Dragon and Dungeon magazines. There is lashing when WotC announced 4th Edition (which is, essentially, canceling 3.X), there was lashing over the announced moderation change (some of us had come to enjoy the way the forums were), Hell there was even a minor lashing out over the Gamemastery Modules getting changed to Pathfinder modules and getting reduced in schedule (although that quickly subsided when it was clear they weren't being canceled, just "rearranged").
So, even if they don't understand it, they should start expecting it.
Oh, and maybe there is a difference of opinion. I do not equate lashing out with being rude, obnoxious, or insulting. Although, I can see how some could.
I've been around for the inception of quite a few messageboards and they all, to a fault, followed the same pattern.
You're right, but some of those boards were a bit more predisposed to Phase 4 than regular boards...
; )
The way some people talk you'd think this was life or death. Maybe we should get off the computer and go walk in the real world for a while. Do some volunteer work, sponsor a food drive, or protest atrocities in Darfur. Something meaningful.And this type of insult is helpful how? You answer to these people is "Get a life!"
I think this type of response is where part of the rage is comming from.
I would agree.