Here here! ...except, I wish the really good companies (Paizo, Necro, Goodman, Blackdirge, LPJ, and others) would keep producing 3.5 stuff for us.I am not trying to convince anyone to not play 4E. I would probably have an easier time persuading Red Sox fans to root for the Yankees.
I just want to add my voice to the significant percentage of those sticking with 3.5 so they will be inspired to keep playing it (and so that Paizo or some other company will continue to support it).
Although I will be switching all my product lines to 4E, I may continue to produce some 3.5 products, or at least dual-statted products. It all depends on what kind of demand there is for 3.5.
Personally, I think there will be more people sticking with 3.5 over 4.0 than those that stuck with 1.0 or 2.0 over 3.0. I just don't know if it will be enough to warrant the continued production of the older version of the game.
BD
Naah, that's when it'll get going reeeeeel good.
Yeah, I have to agree. I hate to see the rift in our gaming community but it will.... its obvious, the market is going to split... most all professional game supplement designers will be compelled to buy 4th edition core books but many may decide ultimately to continue to create products for 3.5 and 3.0 players.
As for gamers, I think we will see the "Tastes Great" versus "Less Filling" crowd... aka "You're D&D is not the REAL D&D". That will be the debate... which D&D is the real D&D... 4th edition, or 3.5... or 2nd or 1st edition perhaps???
Since some folks seem to be missing my point let me ask you a question:
Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?
Of course not.
Nor was it ever okay for a large vocal group to post that there's something wrong about being interested in 4th edition. Yes, I take your point, it has happened.
But shall we begin again, or just get revenge for what has gone on before?
And also CWM, you have tendency to take the bait. (I do too, so I'm not judging you harshly). It might be helpful to only engage someone who demonstrates the same respect that you give them.
If others really want to engage you, they'll learn to talk to you at the level where you're at.
|
Since some folks seem to be missing my point let me ask you a question:
Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?
Of course not.
Nor was it ever okay for a large vocal group to post that there's something wrong about being interested in 4th edition. Yes, I take your point, it has happened.
But shall we begin again, or just get revenge for what has gone on before?
And also CWM, you have tendency to take the bait. (I do too, so I'm not judging you harshly). It might be helpful to only engage someone who demonstrates the same respect that you give them.
If others really want to engage you, they'll learn to talk to you at the level where you're at.
You are right. I know. The trouble is that there are people that would want to post about 4E but avoid it because of the flame throwers and trolls. This thread started because it should be better, it can be better, and I hope that it gets better soon.
The Paizo boards already have a reputation for being cranky grognard central. That is not a good thing.
|
|
The Paizo boards already have a reputation for being cranky grognard central. That is not a good thing.
It might be that the problem is not "out there." Generalizations, name calling, categorizations of people etc. ultimately reflects on the poster. Hence, if one wants to be engaged in a certain manner, the first step should be to look at our own actions.
|
Although I will be switching all my product lines to 4E, I may continue to produce some 3.5 products, or at least dual-statted products. It all depends on what kind of demand there is for 3.5.
Hello there, Blackdirge!
Good to hear from one of the professionals, as they undoubtedly have to look at the situation from an economic point of view, regardless of their own preferences, or what gets played at their own table.I'm aware of your stuff, having been exposed to it via RPGNow, though I don't recall seeing any of it in print on the shelves of my games store. Is that because you solely deal in pdf or print-on-demand?
And if so, does that make a radical difference to how you view the change of edition? The older products will still exist as pixels, to be downloaded at customers' leisure. No large printing bill for you, no pile of unsold stock, either?
I seem to recall that your products are also very 'plug & play' (new monsters, templates, etc), so it may not make much of a difference to you if you write for 3.5 or 4E; the idea is for customers to take a bit of this and a bit of that, depending on the theme of their individual campaigns. That, presumably can still continue, regardless of what new product you make?
|
|
The Paizo boards already have a reputation for being cranky grognard central. That is not a good thing.
I can see the scene after June 2008...
"Hey, mister, you look like a grognard, who knows wot he needs...howzabout summmathat Fird Edition goodness? Don't gimme that flannel; you wouldn't be hangin' rarnd Cranky Grognard Station arfter midnoight for naffin', do me a favour? Don't tell the peelers, but if you know wot's good for you you'll be at Platform 9 and three-quarters at midnoight tonoight...they'll be unwrappin' a case of Pathfinder 4 wot fell off the back of a Chinese trawler. Lavverly stuff! Still in their wrappers, just sniff that ink! Have yer money handy; cash, no checks. And if anyone arsks, I never saw you, roight?"
Hello there, Blackdirge!
Good to hear from one of the professionals, as they undoubtedly have to look at the situation from an economic point of view, regardless of their own preferences, or what gets played at their own table.
Yeah, lucky for me, I really like what I've seen for 4.0, so converting my products over won't be as much of a hardship.
I'm aware of your stuff, having been exposed to it via RPGNow, though I don't recall seeing any of it in print on the shelves of my games store. Is that because you solely deal in pdf or print-on-demand?
At the moment, I'm solely a PDF publisher, but that will change this year. You should be seeing Blackdirge Publishing products on the shelves of your local gamestore in the last quarter of 2008.
And if so, does that make a radical difference to how you view the change of edition? The older products will still exist as pixels, to be downloaded at customers' leisure. No large printing bill for you, no pile of unsold stock, either?
Yeah, that's one of the advantages of being a strict PDF publisher. I have every intention to continue offering my current 3.5 products after the switch to 4.0. There's really no reason no to. However, the question is whether I will be designing new products in 4.0, 3.5, or both.
I seem to recall that your products are also very 'plug & play' (new monsters, templates, etc), so it may not make much of a difference to you if you write for 3.5 or 4E; the idea is for customers to take a bit of this and a bit of that, depending on the theme of their individual campaigns. That, presumably can still continue, regardless of what new product you make?
Yup, you understand my design goals perfectly. I try to offer products that can fit in nearly any fantasy campaign and can be utilized by a wide array of players and DMs. I think it's still important that I produce the bulk of my products for the most popular edition, but as I said earlier, if there's a market for 3.5, I'll consider dual statting or the occasional 3.5 product.
BD
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
As others have stated, we cannot fully debate the merits, or flaws, of a system until we fully see the system.
Also as others have said, vitrol is counter productive.
My dislike of 4.x is the idea of getting an entire new engine for a car that works fine for me. The industry needs growth, and hopefully WotC will be able to provide that growth.
I believe the reason for the delays, both in the GSL and the rules engine, are done to 'tighten' them up. The backlash against the GSL was loud in the publishing community, and I bet it's been revisited for fair use and in reaction to the outcry. If i'm correct, it means that WotC is still listening, even if it's fighting its rabbid pack o'lawyers.
I will continue to make my dislike of something known, whether it be the blowing up of Aber-Toril or the perceived marketing plans of WotC. I won't be saying that the ink for the 4.x books is made from real girl scouts, or that CWM eats babies. I request folks do the same.
Aside: Paizo WILL go 4.x at some point, unless the GSL makes this impossoble, e.g. "by accepting the GSL, you forfit any production under the OGL." I just hope it's after second darkness.
WotC, Slower, please.
|
|
Since some folks seem to be missing my point let me ask you a question:
Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?
No, it's not, and that's why we have such a problem with the WotC marketing thus far. ;)
So are you the pot or the kettle, anyway, in this scenario?
I do not debate 4e anymore, I got tired of the back and forth and the fighting about things we really do not know about. Some people get you hyped up on something that turns out to be nothing. There are things I do not get why they have changed, but I am reserving judgment until I get the books in my hand and can read over them.
I do find this topic amusing all things considered.
|
|
Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?No, it's not, and that's why we have such a problem with the WotC marketing thus far. ;)
I agree. That does not justify the displacement of anger on to anyone that shows interest in 4E. Which game you play is up to you. I do not see the choice of 3.5 or 4E as a negative comment on anyone's character or mental capacity.
I would hope that everyone could agree to that.
|
|
I agree. That does not justify the displacement of anger on to anyone that shows interest in 4E. Which game you play is up to you. I do not see the choice of 3.5 or 4E as a negative comment on anyone's character or mental capacity.I would hope that everyone could agree to that.
On that yes, on suppressing debate and disagreement, no.
Crosswind,
I am one of the fence sitters. I would love to have civil debate on the topic of 4e, but I just don't see it happening. With all the post crapping and rancor out there it would take a bigger man than me to keep it civil, the best I can do is say my piece and then ignore the s**tstorm that ensues.
There was less anger during the twilight of the 2e era when 3e was imminent. We had a overly mature 2e creaking its way to oblivion and no 3rd party support to speak of. Now we have the OGL and the possibility of forking D&D into 3.5 and 4e camps. The stakes are higher now.
Unfortunately, the pebbles have no say when the avalanche has begun. So, most of this will be raging at the oncoming tide of snow and debris rushing down the WotC mountain.
Even if the all the 3rd party publishers say they will continue with OGL and ignore 4e (a slim possibility) they will still be but a fraction of what WotC and bring to bear on the market.
The 3.5 publisher hold outs will become a small slice of the pie and have less opportunity to grow than those that hitch their wagon to 4e. This will be quite the dilemma for those 3rd party players...
The GSL is going to be the make or break item for 4e. If Paizo can live with the GSL and make the products they want, then they will welcome their new 4e overlords and we can join them or go somewhere else.
There will be consumer hold outs at every edition change, there always are (I might be one of them) but I will predict that within 1 to 2 years 4e will be the dominant force at conventions and own the market.
The question then becomes a matter of what level of support 3.5 will have... there is a slim hope that there will be some support. This is why the hate will not go away until the issue is decided. It is the nature of our vanity that shouting at the avalanche will perhaps spare us...
So all you 3.5 folks that will never surrender, never give up... Pray that Hasbro/WotC legal team has made the GSL so horrendous that most 3rd party publishers wouldn't touch its toxic corpse with a 10-foot enlarged lawyer... that is where your best hope for support from Paizo and others lie.
In Service,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
There will be consumer hold outs at every edition change, there always are (I might be one of them) but I will predict that within 1 to 2 years 4e will be the dominant force at conventions and own the market.
I am reminded of "New Coke". This may be the same. then again, maybe not.
I too am waiting to see
So when can we accept that 4E is what it is (like it or not) and those that want to play it deserve a space where they can talk about it freely without the sniping and rancor.Only after absolute uncompromised victory by one side over the other!
...
There can can only be one.
4e is a Mockery of D&D!
4e is a Mockery of D&D!A shining example of just how low the signal to noise ratio can be.
You know so much about so many things, but you just don't get it do you?
You know so much about so many things, but you just don't get it do you?
TO: CWM
Don't take the bait. Doesn't matter what Edition you want, just walk away.
...
So when can we accept that 4E is what it is (like it or not) and those that want to play it deserve a space where they can talk about it freely without the sniping and rancor.
The 4e section is used mostly to voice why 4e is going to suck. Some even wait feverishly for any news on 4e, just so they can voice there opinion again on how 4e is going to suck. As for myself, I'm on the 4e side of the fence. But if people want to complain about 4e with out ever playing the game, let them. It's a lot more appropriate to to complain on these message boards about 4e, than spitting in the face of some WotC game designer.
My point is, don't let the nay sayers get to you.
Unless of course you WANT to debate about "why 4e haters post on the 4e section of the message board? In that case great question.
So all you 3.5 folks that will never surrender, never give up... Pray that Hasbro/WotC legal team has made the GSL so horrendous that most 3rd party publishers wouldn't touch its toxic corpse with a 10-foot enlarged lawyer... that is where your best hope for support from Paizo and others lie.
I thank you for considering those like me. But for myself, I will do no such thing.
I don't wish ill upon WotC, or Hasbro, and especially not the poor companies that are hinging on WotCs benevolence in the GSL.
I don't like the changes. I don't like the edition. But the beauty of existence is that others can love what I "hate."
Now, I am very fearful that WotC will "screw the pooch" on this... But that isn't my hope.
Hello, do you want to be my friend?
Why hello!
WHAP!
WHAP WHAP WHAP!
I don't like the changes. I don't like the edition. But the beauty of existence is that others can love what I "hate."
Now, I am very fearful that WotC will "screw the pooch" on this... But that isn't my hope.
I don't think that it will take tons of negative hopes against WOTC/Hasbro anyways. I believe as you, though the I think the... ahem... "pooch has already been screwed". Basically at this point we are already looking at the state of affairs pre-3rd edition release and the envisionment of the OGL copy left concept. We are seeing companies break away from the core intended product and once again it appears that the role playing industry will become heavily saturated with multiple game systems..., this time, again a divison of the different D&Ds and very close "copycat" systems from other companies altogether. The dream of the united Utopia of D&D gamers has been once again shattered, and I'm not sure that even if 4th edition turns out to be the totally cool edition to end all editions that it will be enough to patch the currently splitting gap.
It's not worth arguing over. I like the discussions, even the heated ones, over what's released and revealed. I just skip past the mandatory "this is crapz," and "wherez my DnD, because this doesn't look like my DnDZZ!!1!" posts. There's a lot of good discussion that goes on, in between the other stuff. It's usually easy to ignore unless I'm feeling particularly cranky and the insults directed at 4E fans particularly stupid.
But I don't begrudge anyone the right to complain about what we see here. Paizo has the right to see what their players think and sometimes someones criticism serves to make me think about something in a new way. I think the signal to noise ratio could be much, much worse.
I wouldn't expect the forum to transition until after the core books are out AND Paizo has firmly announced where they are taking their company.
Since some folks seem to be missing my point let me ask you a question:
Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?
LOL! Have you been reading my emails and PM's? ;) Go to the ENWorld forums and post that you like 1e/Hackmaster and find it a better system than 3e/d20. I double-doppleganger-dare you. ;) All fans of all versions of the game have those that rag on other versions for one reason or another. The 4e/everyone-else stuff you are seeing here is normal, good (IMHO), and not going to go away. Ever.
Oh, and for the record; Yes. It is most definitely ok for others to call me an ignorant caveman for playing 'that other game'. I'd much rather have someone call me an ignorant caveman than have society get to the point where anyone who disagrees (even to the point of name-calling) with the 'status quo' is taken away and locked up for 'social rehabilitation'.
Free speech is one of the top 3 things worth dying for, IMHO.
|
|
I like the discussions, even the heated ones, over what's released and revealed. I just skip past the mandatory "this is crapz," and "wherez my DnD, because this doesn't look like my DnDZZ!!1!" posts. There's a lot of good discussion that goes on, in between the other stuff.
I'm going to have to come down on the side of crosswiredmind and AZRogue on this one.
I 'enjoy' the discussions, too, if 'enjoy' is the right word.
I am wary of a lot of what I've heard, and I am guilty of being sarcastic and flippant sometimes, but I hope I've always stayed on the right side of civil.
There's still a place for pro-4E and anti-4E folks, to post here, as long as they are actually interested in gathering information. If someone wants to discuss the rule snippets we're getting that's fine. If it helps clarify what we're hearing, and helps people make a decision one way or the other, that's what this forum is for.
If you've already decided that 4E is the Devil's Droppings, and you'll neverneverneverevereverever forgive WotC, then the question is totally valid. Why are you here?
...
Free speech is one of the top 3 things worth dying for, IMHO.
Totally off-topic, but what are the other two? Just curious!
Totally off-topic, but what are the other two? Just curious!...
Free speech is one of the top 3 things worth dying for, IMHO.
Sex and beer, I think.
The only beer I'm dying for is Guinness! :)
I am not trying to convince anyone to not play 4E. I would probably have an easier time persuading Red Sox fans to root for the Yankees.
I just want to add my voice to the significant percentage of those sticking with 3.5 so they will be inspired to keep playing it (and so that Paizo or some other company will continue to support it).
Same here, I am adding my voice in with the anti-4E side of the fence. I am not trying to persuade anyone here. I am agreeing with some anti-4E posters here.
Note, I never go into a 4e-pro thread. I read it, sure, but I don't reply on it. I know better. That would be downright rude of me. I post on neutral threads, but sometimes I am afraid to even do that since that'll just leave me open to pro-4E flaming.
Likewise, I wish 4e-pros wouldn't do it to my threads or another anti-4E person's thread. What's worse, I somehow end up being the bad guy after pro-4Es enter and trash mine or another's thread apart.
What I have been doing, both me and a buddy of mine, is influencing frequent customers to our local hobby shop not to buy into 4th Edition. We conclude, of course, with "There's plenty of 3.5E books on that shelf Andy needs to sell, buy those and enjoy a real D&D game." We show them previews, and before we can even discuss our reasons for why these are horrible for D&D as a whole, they've already instantly decided "Hell no!" (which is funny, 4th Edition's previews are doing the work for us more than we are).
Heck, just recently I met a a couple of guys who are friends with my buddy that were interested in heading into 4th Edition. So he calls me up and has me head over to show them all the info on 4E (they played 1E and 2E, haven't had a chance with 3E yet). I open up several websites, ENWorld was the best one, the D&D website was second best, and let them read through. After about a half hour of scanning through they turned and said,"Please tell us 3E is still D&D and not this garbage?"
Next thing you know, they start considering getting 3rd Edition books since they'll be much cheaper and still D&D to them.
When can we stop the debate?
Whenever we want.
But we don't want to.
Really, if you don't want to hear negative things about 4e, I'd like to suggest to go somewhere where they don't allow negative things to be said about it. wizards has a couple of message boards for that.
But the moment these boards become a place where complaining about anything is forbidden is the day I cancel all my subscriptions. Not that it would happen, of course.
Basically change scares people and people will always take it personally they do with every other aspect of their life why not this. I'll just say this how many people are still playing 1st ed and 2nd ed?
You'd be surprised. I know more 2nd Edition players than I do 3rd edition players and the only system they have interest in trying out is Castles & Crusades.
The only beer I'm dying for is Guinness! :)Totally off-topic, but what are the other two? Just curious!...
Free speech is one of the top 3 things worth dying for, IMHO.
Sex and beer, I think.
Mmmmmmmmmmmm, Guinness........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
The only beer I'm dying for is Guinness! :)Mmmmmmmmmmmm, Guinness........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.How can you not love a beer that you can really sink your teeth into? ;) St. Patty's Day is nigh! Prepare the green dye!
Please, please, please for the love of God- he's not Patty- he's Paddy, Pat, Padraigh or Patrick.
There's not an Irishman alive that would dare call St. Patrick a girl or a burger.And yes Guinness rocks, my Art College was about two blocks down the street from St James Gate, and having the Brewery across the road was a gift we all still get dewy eyed over.
I'll admit that I haven't frequented this forum much, because it's felt like a hardcore group railing (over and over) to Paizo not to switch. Fanatically so. In a way that basically makes the forum completely useless.
I've stayed outside of that discussion, because I didn't know enough about 4E to know if it was better for me. Having played it for a while... I do now.
So I'm tossing in a couple posts to let Paizo know that some of its subscribers do like 4E and want them to switch, and that the 4E supporters likely wouldn't be seen for the flak in here, or, like me, just go somewhere else (like enworld) to discuss things.
I like the discussion, especially when it's not just negative for negativity's sake. Having the opinion of someone who played the game and liked it can only help. :)
I'll admit that I haven't frequented this forum much, because it's felt like a hardcore group railing (over and over) to Paizo not to switch. Fanatically so. In a way that basically makes the forum completely useless.
I've stayed outside of that discussion, because I didn't know enough about 4E to know if it was better for me. Having played it for a while... I do now.
So I'm tossing in a couple posts to let Paizo know that some of its subscribers do like 4E and want them to switch, and that the 4E supporters likely wouldn't be seen for the flak in here, or, like me, just go somewhere else (like enworld) to discuss things.
Glad you could join the discussion, Keith.
When it comes to the depth of feeling and levels of vitriol in this forum, I don't think it measures up to poisonous atmosphere on some other boards I could mention. I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of the initial anger was directed at the flim flam manner in which 4th Edition was being pitched at us. No one likes being patronized by a company who was happy to sell us soon to be redundant stock, then turning on a dime and telling us why what we just bought was rubbish. It's poor behavior and frankly they've lost me for the forseeable future as a customer.If and when Paizo do change over, I will be disappointed, but would hope they'd offer some support for those of us who continue with 3.5. If not, then I'll have to review my subscriptions, but there's no resentment involved- Paizo are simply playing with the cards they were dealt. I'll just run my 3.5 Pathfinder, WOD, my own homebrew and maybe Masks of Nyalathotep- that'll keep me busy for years. I have plenty of systems, I just don't think I need another one right now.
It's a funny thing, the 4e hate. See, I don't hang out on any boards other than Paizo, and so the only "discussions" I've seen have been here. And I started out on the staying 3.5 side. But with every criticism I saw of a system that hasn't come out yet, and every extremist post, I swung a bit more to accepting 4e. It's the underdog thing I guess. I've always been a sucker for the underdog, and even knowing that it still influences me. I suppose the ironic part is if I had spent my time on one of the rabidly anti-3e boards, I'd probably be backing 3.5. Be that as it may, I can't change my pysche.
IMHO extremist posts only hurt their own side. I'm all in favor of continuing a polite critique of the morsels we know so far. But its all potentially meaningless in making up my mind until the final rules are out, and I've actually used them.
Please, please, please for the love of God- he's not Patty- he's Paddy, Pat, Padraigh or Patrick.
There's not an Irishman alive that would dare call St. Patrick a girl or a burger.
[threadjack]AMEN![/threadjack]