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I think that in a world with any significant number of mages, the levitate spell, and sailing ships, somebody is going to find a way to levitate a ship and sail it through the air.
No engines or bound elementals, just a floating ship with sails.
levitate shifts 100lb/level. That's some really high level casting to get a ship in the air.
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levitate shifts 100lb/level. That's some really high level casting to get a ship in the air.I think that in a world with any significant number of mages, the levitate spell, and sailing ships, somebody is going to find a way to levitate a ship and sail it through the air.
No engines or bound elementals, just a floating ship with sails.
Which is whay I said "going to find a way...".
Research a higher level version of the spell, create an item that magnifies the effect, something.
If I'm a king and I have money, ships, and mages who are aware of the existence of levitate, I'm going to be funding some research.
levitate shifts 100lb/level. That's some really high level casting to get a ship in the air.I think that in a world with any significant number of mages, the levitate spell, and sailing ships, somebody is going to find a way to levitate a ship and sail it through the air.
No engines or bound elementals, just a floating ship with sails.
Which is whay I said "going to find a way...".
Research a higher level version of the spell, create an item that magnifies the effect, something.
If I'm a king and I have money, ships, and mages who are aware of the existence of levitate, I'm going to be funding some research.
For reference, the purely magical Airships used in the nation of Halruaa in FR are enchanted with the spell Suspension. Its basically a higher level levitate.
It may be the sailor in me, but I love flying ships. There’s nothing more evocative of fantasy to me than the image of a boat in the sky. From Peter Pan to Stardust, it never gets old. Ironically, I don’t much care for the airships in Eberron because they don’t actually look much like my ideal of a flying ship. No sails or airbags, just a big ring of fire…no likey.
So yeah, if I get a chance to run in Golarion (my group tends to favor Eberron), I’ll likely be including airships if only just for flavor. Perhaps when they visit Magnimar they’ll see a couple airships leaving the port, returning to their distant island home where the locals have mastered such things. If nothing else, it will give another sense of wonder moment (which is Golarion’s real strength as a setting) and possibly set the groundwork for a future adventure/campaign where the players will get to command one.
Jeremy Mac Donald is dead on when it come to technology.
Archimedes and Leonardo da Vinci are great examples of inventors that developed advanced tech (for their time) that really never went anywhere. Steam engines were a novelties among the Greeks and Romans that served no practical use at the time.
Da Vinci routinely developed workable engineering designs that were well beyond what could be built with current technology (or at least were believed so by the people of his day). Recently, it has been proven that he developed a number of clockwork robots capable of fairly impressive actions. These were made for his patrons and thus were never really seen by most people.
Adding magic to the mix and you do get the magic economy of the current rules. For example, I can see most large towns/cities having continual flames cast on the streetlamps.
One last thing, technology is constantly disappearing as a culture fades. The Minoan culture had indoor plumbing (including indoor a flush toilet system). It would take the Romans to rediscover some of this technology (about 940 years later).
How bout motorcycles?
I want a spherical force field with three tentacles that it uses to walk on, jump, and blundgeon victims. I want that thing to be able to disappear the tentacles and just roll over someone.
Okay, okay, I'll go play some UT3. Still, a Necris Scavenger would almost be as funny as my necromancer's Unliving Room (Bulette Skeleton with the interiour bones removed, an added bone floor, and some bone furniture)
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Actually high powered spells would not be necessary. Added to the SRD by Unearthed Arcana is Incantations. The military would very much be interested in a spell, or incantation that would allow them to gain superiority over an enemy.
However, one must remember that the empires of old have shattered. While city-states have enemies they are also well spaced out. Wars are somewhat limited, by today's standards. However, which ever city is the first to field a flying ship will likely start an arms race as other cities begin fielding their own.
So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?
In a fantasy world I assume that cities have flights of giant eagles, pegasus, small dragons, etc. These are used to defend against aerial attacks, which are likely to be rare, though possible. They also would be useful for long distance reconnaissance and communications.
So, a flying ship would need to bring a sizable force across long distance, capable of capturing land. It must be able to defend against aerial assaults, and deliver enough damage to weaken any other defenses. To compare to modern terms, a flying ship should be able to perform like an aircraft carrier. Maybe not in those specifics and limitations, but in that nature.
An expansionist regime would be very interested in such a device. However, there are two impediments. Has it ever been done before? If so, what happened to the "technology?" And, has anyone with any political/military clout thought of the idea? Just because it can be done, does not mean that it will be done until someone thinks of the idea.
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Robots, airships... *sighs* next thing ya know people will be asking for socket items for magical gems or giant chick mounts.
Why is it everyone hates the thought of 4E being like World of Warcraft, but everyone wants stuff from WoW in their campaign settings?
Please no airships, robots, hot evil blond elves, or anything else found in WoW and Final Fantasy.
So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?
Passengers and cargo. In an area where the ground is extremely uneven, with say large plateau regions, a flying ship would be extremely useful.
Actually high powered spells would not be necessary. Added to the SRD by Unearthed Arcana is Incantations. The military would very much be interested in a spell, or incantation that would allow them to gain superiority over an enemy.
However, one must remember that the empires of old have shattered. While city-states have enemies they are also well spaced out. Wars are somewhat limited, by today's standards. However, which ever city is the first to field a flying ship will likely start an arms race as other cities begin fielding their own.
So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?
In a fantasy world I assume that cities have flights of giant eagles, pegasus, small dragons, etc. These are used to defend against aerial attacks, which are likely to be rare, though possible. They also would be useful for long distance reconnaissance and communications.
So, a flying ship would need to bring a sizable force across long distance, capable of capturing land. It must be able to defend against aerial assaults, and deliver enough damage to weaken any other defenses. To compare to modern terms, a flying ship should be able to perform like an aircraft carrier. Maybe not in those specifics and limitations, but in that nature.
An expansionist regime would be very interested in such a device. However, there are two impediments. Has it ever been done before? If so, what happened to the "technology?" And, has anyone with any political/military clout thought of the idea? Just because it can be done, does not mean that it will be done until someone thinks of the idea.
These ships would probably need to be very heavily enchanted I would think. If we just take something like a ship and make it fly or float you have a big target that does not really have any special defenses against a mid level sorcerer with fireball. This is were I start thinking that the idea of nations racing to make fleets of the things begins to fall down. Their either very expensive and highly enchanted (which limits their numbers - taxing peasants is fun and entertainment for the nobility but it only gets you so far). Otherwise you you have cheaper flying platforms but their extraordinarily vulnerable to even fairly low level mages.
In a world where its fairly easy to make individuals fly I would think that would generally be preferred. That way you have not lost the whole ship if one of the flying individuals is knocked out of the sky.
Unless the things are pretty cheap I can't really see the utility of having one big target versus many smaller targets. I mean I suppose one can stick a lot of archers on such a ship and put in some balista's but, unless these archers are pretty high level, you risk them just being swept from the deck by one or two good spells or a burst of the Dragons Breath. If they are all fairly high level then you risk them all plummeting to their doom if the ship is engulfed in flame - in this case using the well known methods to make them all fly individually seems a better option.
Any feel for how common spellcasters are? In a city of 5,000 how many wizards/adepts/sorcerers/druids et al do I expect to find? And of what level?The tables on page 139 of the DMG are pretty close, actually. So in a city of 5,000, there'd probably be several dozen spellcasters at least.
After I read a post awhile back about the lack of Raise Dead available in Magnimar, I actually used those tables to stat out the city and see what the actual class distrobution might be like (I assumed median numbers, rather than min and max).
While these are obviously non-authoritative estimates, I figure that Magnimar has something like 75 pure spellcasters in the general population (basically 15 of each of the following classes: adept, bard, cleric, sorcerer, wizard) which works out to be something like .004% of the total population.
According to the World Health Organization, in 2000 report on the USA (averaged out across the whole of the US) .0025% of the population are doctors.
So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?Passengers and cargo. In an area where the ground is extremely uneven, with say large plateau regions, a flying ship would be extremely useful.
Teleport is not that high level and would probably fit the bill even better.
Teleport is not that high level and would probably fit the bill even better.So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?Passengers and cargo. In an area where the ground is extremely uneven, with say large plateau regions, a flying ship would be extremely useful.
Except Teleport is limited by the carrying capacity of those being teleported. So if you have a group of women and children and want to also transport a 1000 lbs statue, teleport is just not going to do the job. Also, teleport severly limited on the number of people that can be teleported at anyone time and you'd have to pay for two castings, 1 for the mage to go and 1 for them to return. This also requires a person trained in magic, specificly in some conjuring magic (which some specialized wizards would not be, nor would many sorcerers).
A flying ship might not require any special training in magic (depending on how it is constructed and run), would be permanent so as not to need repeated castings, and could transport large numbers of people and products at one time.
It seems as if a lot of people are only thinking in terms of individuals, perhaps that is a result of playing a RPG versus a war game. Yes, individual griffon riders would probably be better to attack with than a single flying ship. Yes, teleport is faster if you want to get a single person to a different site. Yet if you want to move large numbers of people and equipment over a terrain similar to Varisia, with its mountain ranges, dense woods, large lakes, marshlands, and large plateau a flying ship would work much better.
Also depending on the individual campaign, 9th level wizards might be very common and have nothing better to do than to teleport groups of people back and forth, day after day, but in many campaigns 9th level wizards may be fairly limited and their desires would not be to be a glorified chauffeur.
So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?Passengers and cargo. In an area where the ground is extremely uneven, with say large plateau regions, a flying ship would be extremely useful.
Taking a page from the recent "Stardust" movie (after the book by Neill Gaiman) "elemental harvesting" in the upper regions might also be an interesting field of use.
Exploration comes to mind as well, same goes for transport of light, if voluminous bulk goods.
As for "teleport" - that is an option always linked to a high-level mage and his availability. An airship, once built, stays available indiependently of said mage (and his loyalties).
Robots, airships... *sighs* next thing ya know people will be asking for socket items for magical gems or giant chick mounts.
Why is it everyone hates the thought of 4E being like World of Warcraft, but everyone wants stuff from WoW in their campaign settings?
Please no airships, robots, hot evil blond elves, or anything else found in WoW and Final Fantasy.
You mean like swords, armour, monsters, plot etc. ? Archetypal dwarves, demonic powers as antagonists, trolls, characters using steeds to travel.... ressurection magics.... weapon augment crystals (bad MIC, bad ! )
And pray, tell me the difference between a golem (any golem) and a robot. From the outside....
If you don't like something, just leave it out of the game . I did definitely do so for my Eberron campaign (like the Kalashtari and the entirity of Sarlona) - but added other stuff in the process ( mostly IK flavour ) which me group liked and asked for.
Some "recut to fit" is always possible, even a GM's duty IMHO, unless it is a setting dominant trait, like the dying magic of "Dark Sun". And airships etc. are hardly that.
Then again - Golarion until now (as far as one can judge from the adventures and Pathfinder issues ) has been rather rustic, rural and "lost-tech-only".
And yes, that is not a bad thing in my mind either.
Teleport is not that high level and would probably fit the bill even better.So, what then would be the purpose of a flying ship?Passengers and cargo. In an area where the ground is extremely uneven, with say large plateau regions, a flying ship would be extremely useful.Except Teleport is limited by the carrying capacity of those being teleported. So if you have a group of women and children and want to also transport a 1000 lbs statue, teleport is just not going to do the job. Also, teleport severly limited on the number of people that can be teleported at anyone time and you'd have to pay for two castings, 1 for the mage to go and 1 for them to return. This also requires a person trained in magic, specificly in some conjuring magic (which some specialized wizards would not be, nor would many sorcerers).
A flying ship might not require any special training in magic (depending on how it is constructed and run), would be permanent so as not to need repeated castings, and could transport large numbers of people and products at one time.
It seems as if a lot of people are only thinking in terms of individuals, perhaps that is a result of playing a RPG versus a war game. Yes, individual griffon riders would probably be better to attack with than a single flying ship. Yes, teleport is faster if you want to get a single person to a different site. Yet if you want to move large numbers of people and equipment over a terrain similar to Varisia, with its mountain ranges, dense woods, large lakes, marshlands, and large plateau a flying ship would work much better.
Also depending on the individual campaign, 9th level wizards might be very common and have nothing better to do than to teleport groups of people back and forth, day after day, but in many campaigns 9th level wizards may be fairly limited and their desires would not be to be a glorified chauffeur.
Sure. But the key idea is that any kind of flying ship is in direct competition with mages and sorcerers. The key to having a viable airship is that such ships need to be safe, cheap and fairly easy to make or their going to be replaced by mages.
Obviously the number of mages with abilities like teleport are a factor but I have a hard time envision a world where flying ships are common but mages are rare. I mean who makes the flying ships?
Other good spells for the prospective merchant mage keen to undercut the competition are shrink object, this is a really good 3rd level spell that reduces the size of an object by 4 size categories. The key for our merchant mage to using this spell is not to make medium objects smaller but to make really big objects into smaller ones. For example a gargantuan object weighing between 16 and 125 tons can be reduced to a small sized object weighing between 8 to 60 pounds. At this point your strong business partner (or just the hired help) lifts the object up to carry it with them on the trip.
Secret Chest is also an excellent spell for transportation though not comparable to shrink object. Essentially you make a chest one cubic foot per level of the caster that can summon from an extra dimensional space basically at will. Obviously one can increase their carrying capacity by storing things in the chest, making the [/i]teleport and then retrieving objects from the chest.
The really interesting thing for this spell is transporting really big objects. A 10th level mage can store store a 10' by 10' object in the chest. This means he could cast shrink object on, say, a house. Shrink the house down from colossal to medium stick it in the box and take it out again at ones destination, with a large box you could transport 4 houses at a time.
Now I'm not positive a house works becuase their attached to the ground, in general, but you get the idea of just what this combination can do and what the airships are up against.
There's also Floating Disk. Further, a clever mage could make use of shrink item, levitate, teleport and instant summons to move large quantities of goods fairly quickly.
That's inspired.
Okay, okay, I'll go play some UT3. Still, a Necris Scavenger would almost be as funny as my necromancer's Unliving Room (Bulette Skeleton with the interiour bones removed, an added bone floor, and some bone furniture)
The muses have been kind to me. They do hate everybody else. They have told me so. I hear their voices in my head. You don't want to hear what they told me to do out of your bones...
Please no airships, robots, hot evil blond elves, or anything else found in WoW and Final Fantasy.
I agree about the airships and robots, but what's wrong with hot evil blond elves? I like that. They don't even have to be blond. Or evil. Or elves. As long as we're talking hot female, I want it in my game.
And until the evil hot blond elves arrive, I vote that Seoni wears fake ears and puts a mean look on her face.
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Seoni doesn't need fake elf ears. Schoolgirl costume though..
Wait.. umm pretend I didn't say that.
Anyway, the point is we don't need airships or anything else like that. Even magical airships, there are conventional methods from boats to caravans to settle both. And cities/people that are in isolated areas are SUPPOSED to be isolated, see ancient Chinese culture.
....launching off of airships....that are exploding.
...and you need to use a piece of the sail as a parachute...
So....robots.....Bubo the magic owl, anybody?Hey, Hephaestus made Bubo...not some mortal spellslinger.
Come to think of it...a clockwork Owl being a masterful creation by a deity? Then again in like 1500BC a clockwork Owl would be beyond amazing.
Howzabout a clockwork . . . orange, hee hee.
How about:
Hey! You got your airship in my Golarion!
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Sexy elven stuntwomen aside, I don't have any airships in my Golarion game but I do have a mythical air river in Varisia. Anyone crazy enough to get a winged or sailing vessel up to the peaks of the Mindspin mountains would find that, if released from the right spot, the vessel would fly along an invisible course. There's a small graveyard of failed attempts which has been harvested by a tribe that lives far below. They know something of the region's oddball past.
Saving the idea for later, but thought I'd share.
I wouldn't be opposed to placing airships in Golarion, but I wouldn't demand them. I wouldn't want to see them with big balloons, or tethered to hundreds of thousands of smaller balloons, or glued to a bird with a balloon in its beak. . . or with sails. Or a ship with sails tethered to millions of bees.
I'd think if someone went out of their way to craft an "airship" that it wouldn't mirror an actual maritime ship. In this way, I can picture, say, a flying tower, or a flying city. I'd perhaps put one in myself, and have only one, or see if my player perhaps wanted to put one in. I wouldn't wait and hold my breath for it in an AP. If it was a flying vessel of some sort, I'd keep it restricted to a small size out of arbitrariness.
In the sense of utilizing flight capabilities, since it's absolutely viable through spells such as Fly, Air Walk, and Levitate, or riding a Roc, this just isn't a burning issue in me.
Contributor
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Howzabout a clockwork . . . orange, hee hee.
Ye gods how I love the puns! You get a cookie. Or a chocolate orange, even. ;D
Anyone crazy enough to get a winged or sailing vessel up to the peaks of the Mindspin mountains would find that, if released from the right spot, the vessel would fly along an invisible course.
Dude, I love that!
*considers stealing idea*
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Sexy elven stuntwomen aside, I don't have any airships in my Golarion game but I do have a mythical air river in Varisia. Anyone crazy enough to get a winged or sailing vessel up to the peaks of the Mindspin mountains would find that, if released from the right spot, the vessel would fly along an invisible course. There's a small graveyard of failed attempts which has been harvested by a tribe that lives far below. They know something of the region's oddball past.
Saving the idea for later, but thought I'd share.
Paizo should steal that idea - it's very good.
I vote that Seoni wears fake ears and puts a mean look on her face.She only does that for Merisiel.
And yeah, KaeYoss, it's hawt.
;D
I can already see the "Hot Nights in Cold Varisia" book. Do I have to verify my age to get it?
And cities/people that are in isolated areas are SUPPOSED to be isolated, see ancient Chinese culture.
Yes, I remember that documentation I saw about those ancient chinese beating the first inventor of the telephone to death bamboo sticks because he'd take away their precious isolation. It was brutal. It took several thousand years until someone dared to suggest the telephone again! :P
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Dare I ask what's being passed around? :PNothing's being passed around. Just a question for him. :)
I could email you a question too, but it would be something silly like, "Do you like pancakes?"
I'm guessing it's probably a question regarding whether Paizo can use Selk's awesome air river idea.
And ... I would like to get an email regarding my view of pancakes. I would answer, "Yes."
Nothing's being passed around. Just a question for him. :) I could email you a question too, but it would be something silly like, "Do you like pancakes?"Yeap.. with syrup, no butter. Can I get some served by Seoni and Merisiel dressed as Akihabara cosplay waitresses? :P
Will they be using the syrup and butter on the pancakes or on each other . . . ;-)