Actually I am one of the few folks who really likes the elemental vortex with the rotten through spot where the Abyss lies. I think the demons could become a cool new thing, very different from the old--with kind of a Daemons of Slannesh/Minions of the Wyrm thing going for them.
It's the devils that bother me. So there's one celestial plane out there that has ever had the minions try to overthrow their god? Really? Ever? Seems like it would happen all the time with evil planes...
But whatever, they did, and the dying wish of the GOD of that plane was to bind them there forever. Okay, sweet...so then how does a mortal summon one with a first level spell? The dying wish of a god? Hello. I really don't see that happening. In fact I don't see mortals ever summoning a devil from the Nine Hells EVER. Not only that--but with all the planes out there, and this one prison plane full of bound devils--how does anyone even know it exists, to know how to summon a devil, or that devils even exist for that matter? Hmm?
Yeah, so you've got devils, all martialed under the iron rule of Asmodeus--right? So what do they want? Well I'd imagine escape! To get free of their hellish prison plane and find a new plane where the gods were long since killed or forgotten where they could set up the kind of kingdom they first wanted, right? Also probably to get uncursed to become celestials again, right (I mean heck if Summon Monster I can release them from the plane they were bound too--I gotta' imagine Remove Curse would turn them back into angels...). But strangely no. They want human souls and power on the prime material plane...mwah-hah-hah! Wait...why? What could that possibly get them?
It just doesn't make sense at a whole lot of different levels. I like the idea of a more judeo-christian sense of devils in contrast to the old Blood War, "we love law!" thing. That's great. I just wish they sat back and looked at their idea for a second to see if it made any sense...
Urgh.
Actually I am one of the few folks who really likes the elemental vortex with the rotten through spot where the Abyss lies. I think the demons could become a cool new thing, very different from the old--with kind of a Daemons of Slannesh/Minions of the Wyrm thing going for them.
It's the devils that bother me. So there's one celestial plane out there that has ever had the minions try to overthrow their god? Really? Ever? Seems like it would happen all the time with evil planes...
But whatever, they did, and the dying wish of the GOD of that plane was to bind them there forever. Okay, sweet...so then how does a mortal summon one with a first level spell? The dying wish of a god? Hello. I really don't see that happening. In fact I don't see mortals ever summoning a devil from the Nine Hells EVER. Not only that--but with all the planes out there, and this one prison plane full of bound devils--how does anyone even know it exists, to know how to summon a devil, or that devils even exist for that matter? Hmm?
Yeah, so you've got devils, all martialed under the iron rule of Asmodeus--right? So what do they want? Well I'd imagine escape! To get free of their hellish prison plane and find a new plane where the gods were long since killed or forgotten where they could set up the kind of kingdom they first wanted, right? Also probably to get uncursed to become celestials again, right (I mean heck if Summon Monster I can release them from the plane they were bound too--I gotta' imagine Remove Curse would turn them back into angels...). But strangely no. They want human souls and power on the prime material plane...mwah-hah-hah! Wait...why? What could that possibly get them?
It just doesn't make sense at a whole lot of different levels. I like the idea of a more judeo-christian sense of devils in contrast to the old Blood War, "we love law!" thing. That's great. I just wish they sat back and looked at their idea for a second to see if it made any sense...
Urgh.
I'd like to put some theories out there in regards to some of this, because it's some of the bits of 4th Ed. that I actually happen to like.
1. Usurping the ruler of a plane: I would say that there have been very few such attempts in the celestial realms. Mostly because either the deities bent towards "good" would outweigh its desire to remain in charge or because the "angels" would simply not see overthrowing their leige as a viable option. As for the infernal planes, that's just the price of doing business--If you're strong enough you remain in power, if you're not you get eaten.
2. Loopholes in wishes: There is always a way out. Always. DMs have been hosing player's wishes for nearly four decades, and since it's a deity's dying act there might have been an unexpected loophole or two. For example: "You may not depart from this place," could still allow for someone else to come get you, bind you, and take you elsewhere...but you can't leave by your own doing; "Your forms will dwell here for eternity," leaves the option of possession open so long as the (demonic) body remains in the prison realm.
3. Knowing the existance of the fallen: In order to slay what was presumably their creator, the fallen must have been extraordinarily powerful, and it could have taken centuries before someone (mortal) successfully summoned even the best able to respond from the prison. It's possible that the fallen had followers prior to the slaying of their creator or that some cult sought to reestablish contact with the forgotten power and established contact with the fallen instead. Once contact has been (re)established, it's only a matter of time. Plus the creator of the fallen is dead, and presumably has no worshippers...so what's to fuel its wish any longer? I don't see any reason why a power's powers should continue eternally without some degree of degradation. It may have taken millenia to get the first cracks in the barriers.
4. Shuffling onto the mortal coil: I can see where they would want out, but not necessarily regain their celestial status. After all, that would almost certainly mean reestablishing the faith of their creator or putting the first among them as the figurehead. Now, they (probably) destroyed their creator for a reason, so they don't want that again, and would the second through fourth among the fallen be willing to rally behind the first among them? Maybe. Maybe not. Is Asmodeus trying to build up a "worship" base to elevate his status to force his apotheosis? Is he trying to relocate the fallen to a place where they cannot be imprisoned as thoroughly as they are now (able to come and go without requiring mortal aid)? Sure the creator's wish might be crumbling, but if you could get out early (a few millenia off for bad behavior as it were) why not try it? Are the lowest among the fallen even remnants of the slain creator's work, or creations of Asmodeus?
That's pretty much all I've got. It's not much to work with, but I think that there's something there that would fit the situations as presented.
1. Usurping the ruler of a plane: I would say that there have been very few such attempts in the celestial realms. Mostly because either the deities bent towards "good" would outweigh its desire to remain in charge or because the "angels" would simply not see overthrowing their leige as a viable option. As for the infernal planes, that's just the price of doing business--If you're strong enough you remain in power, if you're not you get eaten.
Mind you, when I say "celestial" I mean the realms of the gods. That counts boys like Vecna, Bane, Tiamat, and Talos as much as it does good gods. Back in 3rd edition (and I always found this lame BTW) evil gods really didn't have their own celestials from their home realm but instead had demons or devils for some weird reason. Not so anymore. Devils (and certainly demons) are something very different, thank goodness. When you say "infernal planes" you're really just talking celestial planes with evil gods--or the Nine Hells, or the Abyss. So yeah, can you imagine the divine servators of Bane trying to overthrow him? Certainly I can.
2. Loopholes in wishes: There is always a way out. Always. DMs have been hosing player's wishes for nearly four decades, and since it's a deity's dying act there might have been an unexpected loophole or two. For example: "You may not depart from this place," could still allow for someone else to come get you, bind you, and take you elsewhere...but you can't leave by your own doing; "Your forms will dwell here for eternity," leaves the option of possession open so long as the (demonic) body remains in the prison realm.
I like this idea--but am really uncomfortable thinking that the biggest wushu a god has is the Wish spell. That makes them a bit too statted out for my tastes. Even stat wise, the assumption is that godly spells never suffer failure and their every action is considered a critical success, which would seem to indicate that when a god does something--they do it better than a human. The curse of a dying god should mean something. More even, I would argue, than the pronouncement of a still living god. It has the extra weight of judgement and righteous indignation. If godly powers have a shelf-life then it's sobering to think that they worked together to make the world the game takes place on. How long until that falls apart....
3. Knowing the existance of the fallen: In order to slay what was presumably their creator, the fallen must have been extraordinarily powerful, and it could have taken centuries before someone (mortal) successfully summoned even the best able to respond from the prison. It's possible that the fallen had followers prior to the slaying of their creator or that some cult sought to reestablish contact with the forgotten power and established contact with the fallen instead. Once contact has been (re)established, it's only a matter of time. Plus the creator of the fallen is dead, and presumably has no worshippers...so what's to fuel its wish any longer? I don't see any reason why a power's powers should continue eternally without some degree of degradation. It may have taken millenia to get the first cracks in the barriers.
I like the first part--that the lore of the devils outdates the destruction of their creator. Trouble is, that would tend to make most civilizations newer than the existance of the Nine Hells--and presumably the tiefling race and warlock class. That could pose problems down the road. The second part, about the wheels falling off the god's wish--well that's the same problem I have with the above really. If dying gods creations and mandates errode when they die then what about all the stuff the gods created in the world--like the various races or landmasses? Not that that couldn't be a neat idea in a niche setting--but the whole "keep the god alive so the world doesn't blow up" thing is something I'd like to avoid as the baseline.
4. Shuffling onto the mortal coil: I can see where they would want out, but not necessarily regain their celestial status. After all, that would almost certainly mean reestablishing the faith of their creator or putting the first among them as the figurehead. Now, they (probably) destroyed their creator for a reason, so they don't want that again, and would the second through fourth among the fallen be willing to rally behind the first among them? Maybe. Maybe not. Is Asmodeus trying to build up a "worship" base to elevate his status to force his apotheosis? Is he trying to relocate the fallen to a place where they cannot be imprisoned as thoroughly as they are now (able to come and go without requiring mortal aid)? Sure the creator's wish might be crumbling, but if you could get out early (a few millenia off for bad behavior as it were) why not try it? Are the lowest among the fallen even remnants of the slain creator's work, or creations of Asmodeus?
Well, they kinda' are still celestials--just corrupted evil ones with no god. I wasn't thinking of something as grandiose as divine resussurection anyway. Summon Monster I can summon them right? If the curse/wish/whatever had disintegrated THAT far, I'd imagine all a devil would need would be a Remove Curse spell to become what it was before. Don't see the need for a new god. After all, you don't need to have a god to be a celestial or the big guy wouldn't have had to issue any dying ill against them--would he? I like the idea that Asmodeus is hoping for apoptheosis, but that would be more doing service for worship (which is a fine idea that I like a lot, but I think it would make the developers die) rather than the faustian deeds-for-immortal soul shtick they are going for.
What would I have liked? How about a "devil" is any celestial ronin so to speak. Some celestials leave their masters over disagreements and are cursed for it. Some take their god's life in an ichor-drenched battle. Some suffer their god's defeat and refuse to join the forces of their god's slayer. One such powerful former angel--a guy named Asmodeus--has taken over his former patron's realm as well as eight others and is calling all ronin celestials to his banner. There's a lot of devils and hells out there that aren't affiliated with any particular faction, it's just the Nine Hells are the most militant, biggest group of devils and so are most closely associated with the term. Still, being fallen celestials from around the cosmos, they are a relatively diverse lot.
Interestingly that would explain quite a few things--for one it would
give the option for there being devils that look different from each other (not all red-skinned, horned, goatfeet guys) because their god was once a nature god, or a law god, or a death god...you know. Some "devils" might not even be evil--just really tired and pragmatic from having lived so long without a master.
That's probably how I would like to see it work--y'know when Wizards of the Coast decides I should be their new design team leader, right? Yeah...
Given that being confined to the plane for all eternity was meant as a punishment, I think perhaps a vengeful god might want to build a loophole in, allowing a 1st-level spell to summon forth a demon to die a really unpleasant and temporary death at the hands of a dire ape or two. I mean, that's gotta be really humiliating.
Baaaarrrrrrrpppphhhhh
wish or curse? There is a difference. Or there should be.
Dying wish is a curse. Granted it's a god, so I'm not sure it should be hammered out with game mechanics or just assumed to be divine mandate. Mechanically though it would probably be a Wish (or more accurately a Miracle) emulating a Curse.
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I haven't read everything possible out there about the 4E changes. I just went back and reread the relevant articles about this on the WotC site. If I'm missing something, please provide a link. With that in mind, here are some thoughts:
It's the devils that bother me. So there's one celestial plane out there that has ever had the minions try to overthrow their god? Really? Ever? Seems like it would happen all the time with evil planes...
First, you seem to start with the assumption that celestial planes refers to the homes of both good and evil gods. Just because you feel that "celestial" should refer to both doesn't mean that's how everyone else interprets it, especially the designers. Its been a long-standing tradition that celestial refers to the good-aligned planes and infernal refers to the evil-aligned planes.
Second, who said this had only happened once? In the article talking about the differences between devils and demons, the Nine Hells is specifically mentioned, but I didn't see anywhere that said that was the *only* place a rebellion had happened.
But whatever, they did, and the dying wish of the GOD of that plane was to bind them there forever. Okay, sweet...so then how does a mortal summon one with a first level spell? The dying wish of a god? Hello. I really don't see that happening. In fact I don't see mortals ever summoning a devil from the Nine Hells EVER. Not only that--but with all the planes out there, and this one prison plane full of bound devils--how does anyone even know it exists, to know how to summon a devil, or that devils even exist for that matter? Hmm?
As others have said, it was a curse, not a wish. Also, you imply that there are a lot of planes in the astral sea, but that might not be the case. And there's no proof that there's only one plane with devils on it. Finally, I don't recall any mention of a first level spell being able to summon devils. This may refer to something that came up in a different place, but if you're referring back to 3.5 spells there's no way of saying those same spells will be in 4E, much less that they'll retain the level. (I don't have my 3.5 books handy, so I can't check if there even *is* a 1st level spell in 3.5 that allows you to summon a devil).
Yeah, so you've got devils, all martialed under the iron rule of Asmodeus--right? So what do they want? Well I'd imagine escape! To get free of their hellish prison plane and find a new plane where the gods were long since killed or forgotten where they could set up the kind of kingdom they first wanted, right? Also probably to get uncursed to become celestials again, right (I mean heck if Summon Monster I can release them from the plane they were bound too--I gotta' imagine Remove Curse would turn them back into angels...). But strangely no. They want human souls and power on the prime material plane...mwah-hah-hah! Wait...why? What could that possibly get them?
Well, Asmodeus is a god now. So I'd assume he wants the same thing the other gods want, he just has a different way of going about it. They trying to get more worshipers, he goes after their souls. Why? Who knows, it never explains exactly why the gods want worshipers in the first place. As for you Remove Curse argument, its based on the assumption that a first level spell can summon them, which I haven't seen proven yet. But even if that's true, your logic doesn't follow. Just because a first level spell can give them a temporary reprieve doesn't mean a third level spell can permanently set them free. But what it comes down to is that I think you may just be confusing what amounts to flavor text with actual game mechanics.
Also, since he is a god now, what's to say that as he gains more power (souls), he can't weaken the bounds of his prison. Once he's gained more power than his patron originally had, he can break the curse on him and his followers. Then why would he want to leave, when he can just arrange the plane to suit his tastes.
It just doesn't make sense at a whole lot of different levels. I like the idea of a more judeo-christian sense of devils in contrast to the old Blood War, "we love law!" thing. That's great. I just wish they sat back and looked at their idea for a second to see if it made any sense...
Actually, it makes sense to me. And what I've seen is presumably just a snippet of what'll be in the final release.
*shrug* I take "infernal" from the sense that it refers to demons and devils rather than gods--though frankly the term should be "fiendish" as infernal actually refers exclusively to devils. There really should be a better catchall for talking about good and evil gods, but Celestial is the best we got.
Then again I'm really not trying a legal case here. I don't need "proof" about anything. Frankly I'd love it to make sense. If it really is that there's loads of hells out there beyond the Nine, then I would love it. Like I posted before, I would much rather a big open cosmology with lots of Hells and Asmodeus as a powerful fallen angel raising a planar kingdom to perhaps invade other planes and increase his holdings and power. Then again, like you said, we're just talking about what we've seen so far--it could be altogether bigger and cooler and more developed than anything we've seen. I sure hope so.
Asmodeus isn't a god in 4e by the way--not that I've seen. Just an archdevil and leader of the Nine Hells. Asmodeus is a god in Pathfinder. I think this may where you got confused.
Oh and all the talk about wish spells, miracles, and curses really isn't my doing. I think it's kind of lame to think that a god's dying act would be to Bestow Curse his minions. Really lame. I tend to think gods play on a little higher power scale really. My point really, was that if magic users can summon devils (as per the Summon Monster charts in the PHB) and thereby extricate them from being bound to a plane by a god's decree--then they might as well be able to use a similar spell, Remove Curse to clense them. Not that I'm advocating this, but rather pointing out how silly it is to be able to countermand gods with low level magic. Reductum ad Absurdum.
So yeah. Hope it's awesome. But I'd really much rather talk over the ideas than get nitpicked by some dude.