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This is probably going too in-depth, but my players have begun to argue over the lawfulness of certain activities in Chelaxian settled territoties. Most of their characters are good, and one is Lawful Neutral. Like most D&D groups we usually assume a goofy, 'feudalism meets the American legal system' framework, with a judge (or jury) and legal representatives. Beyond that it's fuzzy.
I have some questions about the Chelaxian legal model that I'm hoping James Jacobs might be able to address - for flavor's sake.
- What's the standard setup for a court? Professional judges? Citizen judges? Professional lawyers? How many?
- Is divination allowed in the courtroom?
- Is there a Magna Carta equivalent?
- Is torture an allowed means of attaining confession?
- Does wealth, land ownership or noble title officially affect one's rights? Or are citizens considered equal in the courts?
- Are agents of any particular god part of the legal process?
- Are duels legal?
- Are there debtors’ prisons?
- Is enslavement an acceptable punishment?
- Do orders/guilds/schools have the authority to establish private courts to try disputes between members?
- Are military courts separate?
I'm only this curious because I really like the setting :)
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I'm not James Jacobs, but I wanna help! I understand Cheliax to be a Lawful Evil nation, and this is going to color justice, such as it is.
James may make a liar out of me yet, though.
What's the standard setup for a court?
I assume Cheliax presumes guilt, until innocence is proven. An inquisitorial system is used - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system
This means a judge, and two attorneys; a gallery of observers were traditionally present - I suspect most courtrooms are closed these days.
Is divination allowed in the courtroom?
Only by the Judge.
- Is torture an allowed means of attaining confession?
- Are there debtors’ prisons?
- Is enslavement an acceptable punishment?
- Does wealth, land ownership or noble title officially affect one's rights?
Yes.
- Are duels legal?
- Are agents of any particular god part of the legal process?
- Do orders/guilds/schools have the authority to establish private courts to try disputes between members?
No.
Contributor
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I appreciate the response, Cappadocius. Interesting interpretation. When I say Chelaxian, I mean Magnimar and Korvosa, not the country to the south. Do you think both cities follow the Lawful Evil model or maybe they're a little more enlightened? Maybe Lawful Neutral?
Oh, you mean you want to know about Korvosa's legal system? I might know a few things...
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Contributor
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I have some questions about the Chelaxian legal model that I'm hoping James Jacobs might be able to address - for flavor's sake.
I can't answer for Cheliax itself nor for those rebel scum in Magnimar, but I can tell you how Korvosa does things (at least, unless someone here objects and makes me change them).
- What's the standard setup for a court? Professional judges? Citizen judges? Professional lawyers? How many?
Professional judges called arbiters. The number of judges depends on the crime (from one to nine). Always an odd number to avoid stalemates.
- Is divination allowed in the courtroom?
Only by arbiters or their representatives (if they can't themselves cast spells).
- Is there a Magna Carta equivalent?
Yes. Korvosa has a city charter.
- Is torture an allowed means of attaining confession?
No, but it is a form of punishment for violent crimes.
- Does wealth, land ownership or noble title officially affect one's rights? Or are citizens considered equal in the courts?
Yes. No.
- Are agents of any particular god part of the legal process?
Not really. Being a cleric does not make you more or less likely to be an arbiter.
- Are duels legal?
Yes, but only if registered.
- Are there debtors’ prisons?
No. You have to work off your debts.
- Is enslavement an acceptable punishment?
No, but indentured servitude is. See previous Q/A.
- Do orders/guilds/schools have the authority to establish private courts to try disputes between members?
No.*
*With the exception of the Acadamae, which just kinda does its own thing.
- Are military courts separate?
No. Korvosa is very military-minded already.
Creative Director
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Awesome. Thank you Mike, I really appreciate it. Leave it to an annointed representitive of Korvosa to address the questions so quickly. Long live House Arabasti!
::waggles his eyebrows at James Jacobs, assumed representative of Magnimar. Or maybe at J. Wesley::
I'm Sandpoint. Wes is Magnimar. <bullet dodged!>
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Long live House Arabasti!
*in the tones of an offended stuffy nobleman*
I say! House Arabasti indeed! I should think the empress in Cheliax will be seven generations in the grave before those landless louts become nobility, and only then to halt the endless braying they put forward into the ever-patient ears of our beloved monarchs to the south.
;)
Agh! Just saw this! (No one tells me anything.) Sorry for the delay!
- What's the standard setup for a court? Professional judges? Citizen judges? Professional lawyers? How many?
A lot of this is coming from page 58 of the Magnimar article in Pathfinder #2 and stuff that got cut or didn't fit in there. While most disputes are settled by the city guard and perhaps even a few clerics of lawful religions (particularly Iomedae), there are thirteen justices who preside over Magnimar's court system. These are the only judges in the city. Each hold court in one of thirteen personal (custom decorated) courtrooms in the Justice Court. Magnimar has little taste for the bureaucracy of Korvosa and Cheliax and have little taste for lawyers. They prefer that people come before a representative of the law, speak their case, receive their judgment, and move along. However, as receiving a court date might take a matter of months, most people prefer to work out their own disputes with the Watch and through religion rather than dealing with the courts and their sometimes fickle judgments.
- Is divination allowed in the courtroom?
Probably not, more due to its uncommonness among the populace than due to any invasion of privacy. Also, it could be hard to convince a judge that the magic isn't just some misleading trick to influence him. How can a non-magic-using judge know that a "spell" does what the supposed "mage" says it does?
- Is there a Magna Carta equivalent?
There is a city charter, but most of it would discuss the organization of the Council of Ushers and checks against any one leader growing too powerful. Magnimar was founded to escape rule by a king, so the people were and remain paranoid about tyrants. They'd like to pretend their people are small town folk who can solve their own problems as much as possible.
- Is torture an allowed means of attaining confession?
No. The leader of the Magnimar military, and by extension the Watch, Commander Ismeir Odinburge is a paladin after all. Now, that being said, the Justice Court did invite Hellknights to the city, mostly just to make sure to populace stays in line. There's nothing to prevent some of the less scrupulous of these wandering law bringers from torturing a confession from a suspect and handing him over. However, even a hellknight would have to be pretty sure that a suspect had done something wrong before resorting to torture. They're interested in law and order, and use fear as a tool, not an end.
- Does wealth, land ownership or noble title officially affect one's rights? Or are citizens considered equal in the courts?
Title and wealth has no meaning in Magnimar, though some of the thirteen justices might be bought for the right price.
- Are agents of any particular god part of the legal process?
Not officially.
- Are duels legal?
As long as it happens a safe distance from bystanders who might be harmed or where it might cause a panic, it's probably fine. Also if no one presses charges afterwards. If someone is killed in a duel and then the losing party (or a relation of the losing party) claims that it was an attack or murder, it falls to the defendant to prove that the battle was part of a duel. Having a contract drafted before the duel, stating the place, time, and conditions would be wise for both parties if they want to avoid legal ramifications. Alternatively, a law-savvy losing duelist could have his unwary opponent locked away in the Hells beneath the Justice Court for sometime if the winner can't prove the battle was a duel.
- Are there debtors’ prisons?
No.
- Is enslavement an acceptable punishment?
No.
- Do orders/guilds/schools have the authority to establish private courts to try disputes between members?
That would probably be preferable, both because it's the people handling their problems themselves and it avoids the slow moving courts. However, these courts would be private arrangements and have no power outside their own ability to enforce their decisions.
- Are military courts separate?
Military disputes and concerns would go to the next highest commander to dictate, going as high up the chain of command as they need to. However, with few checks and little upward recourse for lower ranking officers, this is someplace illegality could flourish.
I'm only this curious because I really like the setting :)
Awesome man! Hope this helps!