I've been wondering about this for a while. Why can't you take divination as a forbidden school as a specialist wizard? I'm considering doing away with this rule but I want to make sure there isn't some reason not to do this. Is it because of read magic? Input appreciated.
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It's strictly for game balance reasons.
Divination is the weakest school of magic when looked at from a combat perspective. Most people would love to give up Divination in exchange for being an Evoker or Transmuter because they still have access to all the "cool" spells like the buffs, protections and blaster spells and all they give up is the spells that are basically ****info gathering spells.
I wouldn't change it because someone will take huge advantage of the change.
FH
****I am not knocking Divination Magic. When used properly it can be a fun school of magic with a lot of utility.
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Yeah, what Fakey said (who'd've thought I'd agree with someone from Delaware?!).
As far as fun playing goes, though, my "staple" PC is a Divination specialist whose opposition school is Evocation! (That is, when I get the chance to run a PC.) Anyway, I usually ask the DM for a special consideration because of my combat weakness. I try to trade my Familiar away and for compensation -- and due to the weak PC in general -- gesthalt with Expert. This gives me my happy skill points. Then I buy a wand or two of combat Conjuration so I can at least show up in the fights.
-W. E. Ray
I'm in full agreement with Fakey here.
The 3.5 specialization is far simpler, and actually better balanced than the 3.0 version. In 3.0 almost no one was an Evoker, Transmuter, or Conjurer because you had to give up either another major school, two good ones, or three little ones, but you could take Illusion and give up just one other school (like Necromancy).
Also, yes Read Magic, and some other standard divination spells that every wizard should be able to use. A wizard who can't scry or detect magic?
My wizards almost always have given up Evocation, Conjuration, or Transmutation in favor of Necromancy, Illusion or Enchantment.
It's strictly for game balance reasons.
Divination is the weakest school of magic when looked at from a combat perspective. Most people would love to give up Divination in exchange for being an Evoker or Transmuter because they still have access to all the "cool" spells like the buffs, protections and blaster spells and all they give up is the spells that are basically ****info gathering spells.
I wouldn't change it because someone will take huge advantage of the change.FH
****I am not knocking Divination Magic. When used properly it can be a fun school of magic with a lot of utility.
I agree, it can be fun but it just doesn't always fit a character. I'm thinking about making it a case by case basis. I have one player who would shamelessly abuse it but I also have one who probably wouldn't. A wizard who takes Divination as a forbidden school could take one of the feats in CArc or maybe CM that grants certain spell-like abilities. I think that there's one called 'Communicator' or something that gives it as an ability, so that would deal with that problem.
I may be wrong about that feat, I don't have my books with me at the moment.
Personally, I've always thought that rule was dumb. I'm not saying that rule isn't needed, without it you guys are right, you see super man before you can say, 'I cleave the kobold'. but I don't think that Divination should be so underpowered. Think of all the advantages it could give if you worked at it: Knowing what your opponent is about to do, seeing though walls, knowing if a cavern is about to collapse... The possibilities are limitless! They need to make new spells, or look at Enchantment! That dumb school, for all the charms, wont help you kill anyone if they're invisible! well, maybe, but thats not the point! Make new spells!!! Make new house rules!!! Fix it!!! Fix it!!! Restore the fame that Divination used to have!!! What are witches known for???!!! Seeing the future!!! SEEING!!! get it right!!!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!
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Well, KoboldCleaver, it's not as powerful as all that. I love my Divination Wizards but the Divination spells don't really give the edge you may think it does, or, at least, not until you're 15th Level or so. Running a low and even mid-level Diviner {i]as[/i] a Diviner is weak in most campaigns. Take a look at the Divination spell list Levels 1-4; make sure you read the description for Scrying to see its limitations. Compare your results to Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration! Now, like I said earlier, it's {i]by far[/i] my favorite character to run, but it's only plausible in some campaigns. BTW, the "Divination" spells Clerics get are FAR better than the ones we arcane casters get; there's just so few of them (Augury, Cleric's True Strike, Commune). It's another reason for me to HATE Clerics.
-W. E. Ray
Well, KoboldCleaver, it's not as powerful as all that. I love my Divination Wizards but the Divination spells don't really give the edge you may think it does, or, at least, not until you're 15th Level or so. Running a low and even mid-level Diviner {i]as[/i] a Diviner is weak in most campaigns. Take a look at the Divination spell list Levels 1-4; make sure you read the description for Scrying to see its limitations. Compare your results to Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration! Now, like I said earlier, it's {i]by far[/i] my favorite character to run, but it's only plausible in some campaigns. BTW, the "Divination" spells Clerics get are FAR better than the ones we arcane casters get; there's just so few of them (Augury, Cleric's True Strike, Commune). It's another reason for me to HATE Clerics.
-W. E. Ray
Yay! A kindred spirit who hates clerics! Well, i agree with you. Divination is not very strong. i'm not disagreeing with that, I think it is pretty weak. No, I blame the rules. Hopefully, in 4th edition, they'll make it more powerful. I dont think its stong now.
I think it should be.
Then again, making divination tougher brings loads of headaches to the DM, because scrying, prophesying and such can mess best-laid plans...throwing fireballs are easy and predictable, but what diviners have up their sleeves can be totally useless or complete gamebreakers.
That said, I am rather fond of diviners and were it an option, I would still never put divination as forbidden school (same for transmutation...everything else is droppable). And as some pointed out, wizard without detect magic and read magic is in world of trouble (I think 2nd edition made separation for lesser and greater divination, and lesser divination couldn't be chosen as forbidden school).
Then again, making divination tougher brings loads of headaches to the DM
Ummm... Thats kinda the idea.
Bwahahahaha!
Then again, making divination tougher brings loads of headaches to the DMUmmm... Thats kinda the idea.
Bwahahahaha!
Player" I can Gadzook's Irrefutable Vision of the Future, it gives me a 100% accurate no-matter-what divination of what fate awaits my character! "
GM " That's the 123rd time you've cast that spell in the past six months ... "
[Player[/i] " Yeah, but it is soooo kewl whatching you squirm because of it! "
GM's eyebrow raises in the Spock fashion " Very well. Your character's Irrefutable Vision forsees a rather large rock inside of which is a great treasure ... "
Player gives out a loud Hoody-Hoo! and high-fives the player next to him in eager anticipation of easy swag, interrupting the GM.
GM starts grinning from ear to ear, having remembered the fine print in the text of the spell: "Thou shall not interrupt thy GM..." " Sadly, said rock turns out to be the size of a small house and quite solid, as it burns through the atmosphere and SLAMS directly onto your character's square, inflicting 547 points of bludgeoning damage and 73 points of fire damage, melting your swag into its core ... thus, a great treasure now lies within the rather large rock cooling in the crater which your now-very-deceased character has been molecularly integrated into. Hand over your character sheet Twinky. "
Then again, making divination tougher brings loads of headaches to the DMUmmm... Thats kinda the idea.
Bwahahahaha!Player" I can Gadzook's Irrefutable Vision of the Future, it gives me a 100% accurate no-matter-what divination of what fate awaits my character! "
GM " That's the 123rd time you've cast that spell in the past six months ... "
[Player[/i] " Yeah, but it is soooo kewl whatching you squirm because of it! "
GM's eyebrow raises in the Spock fashion " Very well. Your character's Irrefutable Vision forsees a rather large rock inside of which is a great treasure ... "
Player gives out a loud Hoody-Hoo! and high-fives the player next to him in eager anticipation of easy swag, interrupting the GM.
GM starts grinning from ear to ear, having remembered the fine print in the text of the spell: "Thou shall not interrupt thy GM..." " Sadly, said rock turns out to be the size of a small house and quite solid, as it burns through the atmosphere and SLAMS directly onto your character's square, inflicting 547 points of bludgeoning damage and 73 points of fire damage, melting your swag into its core ... thus, a great treasure now lies within the rather large rock cooling in the crater which your now-very-deceased character has been molecularly integrated into. Hand over your character sheet Twinky. "
Heh heh heh.
In a lot of ways how powerful the Divination school is depends on the DM. I tend to be more giving if my player are trying to use Divination to think their way through a challenge while as a player I find a lot of DMs play Divination answer pretty close to the vest so it doesn't end up being all the useful. By making it not an option it just take the DM out of the equation.
In a lot of ways how powerful the Divination school is depends on the DM. I tend to be more giving if my player are trying to use Divination to think their way through a challenge while as a player I find a lot of DMs play Divination answer pretty close to the vest so it doesn't end up being all the useful. By making it not an option it just take the DM out of the equation.
I read Divination spells as good "first principles" for arcane casters, offering highly versatile, though low-powered, spells for any sort of situation. No matter what kind of campaign you're running, there's bound to be a situation where getting info on the terrain or the opposition (before or after open combat) is handy.
From a world-modeling perspective, it's easy to believe that simply perceiving the magic around you is the first thing one would "learn" as a mage. Also, divination spells are your usual source for information about the non-physical aspects of the game. Sure a rogue or a ranger can scout around for what can be seen/felt/heard, but are they going to spot that evilly glowing aura around an "ordinary-looking" statue without some scrying magic? I think not...
As for how much info you get out of a GM, well, your mileage may vary with how well-fed he or she is at the moment. *grin*
I think divinations are useful, but they take time and planning. You can't just cast one spell and get all the answers; it's a multi-step process. You have to go back and forth between using your own intelligence and logic to formulate the proper questions, and then casting a divination to find the answers, or at least the directions of how to look for the answers (at which point further divinations may be needed). It's a meticulous and calculating process, but it has rather potent results. Once as a wizard, the party cleric and I used divinations several times in a similar fashion to the above to gain information on our enemies and thus optomize our spell list. The insuing combats were much easier than they otherwise would have been.
I personally think that every party's wizard should have divination abilities; it makes a particularly potent combo when mixed with a rogue (or anyone else) with Gather Information.
Plus, it's a great way for the DM to let the players in on cool off-scene or background info they otherwise would have missed.
I have the problem of my players assuming that they should get the complete answer for their effort. If you cast only one spell, don't do some homework and footwork you arn't getting all the info. That simple.
EDIT: What Saern said