After spending the last 105 minutes reading the entire postings, I find that I concur with the overall sentiment: We love well-written stories, clever adventures, and pretty pictures. It's what captivated us when we started, and it's what keeps us coming back for more.
I started gaming in 1979 and changed with all the editions; however, my group will not invest in the new 4th edition. Sure, I might purchase 4.0 products - adventures, scenarios, and accessories, but no rule books. My group and I are more than a little disillusioned with the "upgrades," and we already throw out the rules of 3.5 that we don't like, so why invest in more of the same?
So, here it is: It doesn't really matter if PAIZO updates to the new edition, stay where they are, or create something new. Because as long as you continue to sell a QUALITY product, and advertise it, then you will always have a niche in this market.
Gamers are fans; not just of the game, but also of the designers, writers, and artists who create and improve our hobby. As long as the product is good, we will follow and incorporate your creations to best suit our individual needs, regardless if that is 4.0,, 3.5, or something new altogether.
To quote Shakespeare, "The play's the thing."
Best wishes on your continued success!
I'll buy whatever you guys sell. If you go 4th edition and I hold off for a few years, I'll use the 4th edition stuff whenever I get around to it as I love having a bunch of quality pre-written material laying around ready for use when I need it. If you stay 3.5 and I go 4th edition, I'll convert the 3.5 material if I need to, but I won't switch to 4th for quite some time, as my gaming group still needs to play AoW and STAP anyway.
Erik
Thanks for what was obviously a heartfelt call to your customers for their opinion - there are few companies in the world who would take the approach that you have, and you should be lauded for that.
I smiled when I read your comments about 'evening chats' over the future of D&D and Pathfinder, as I myself have "worried" about the future (and then laughed at how seriously I take this 'hobby' of mine).
I have already purchased all the Pathfinder pdfs that I can (living in South Africa makes downloads the easiest way to get my gaming material), but like many gamers I have other campaigns to run before I can even look at Pathfinder - although everything I see so far is blowing me away...
So to answer your question... while part of me would 'prefer' Paizo to stick with 3.5 for Pathfinder, as it means I can "ignore" 4e, and while I will certainly run the first 1, 2 or 3 Adventure Paths with 3.5 presuming they are written for it, it would be naive of me to pretend that if by end of 2008 I am seeing glowing reviews of 4e I would not think of making the change... .
So were the Pathfinder products to remain 3.5, would I still buy them? Hell yes, presuming the content remained as good... if I still buy 2e (and even 1e!) pdfs to use in my 3.5 campaigns, why wouldn't I do the same for Pathfinder?
A good adventure is a good adventure, no matter what system it's written for.
So stick with 3.5 as long as it makes sense for Paizo, and know that your fans will remain loyal throughout any changes in the rules system....
Thanks for Pathfinder.
It's quite clearly a labour of love.
Now, if you want a company who I feel is a bit dickish, look at what Viacom did to White Wolf a decade or so ago with respects to the RPG Aeon.
... or what micro$hit did with a role playing game formerly known as Paranoia XP ...
I recently became a true convert, by subscribing to Pathfinder, I used to pickup the occasional Dungeon. I would be listed as a charter subscriber if I had understood the model being used.
[i]What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? [i]
YES, I, like some of the others here, am willing to put my money where my mouth is and would willing commit to a 2yr subscription even considering the exchange rate.
[i]But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days?[i]
I couldn’t care less about the WoTC hype, it reminds me of Microsoft releases
[i]Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?[i]
NO! I won’t even start a campaign under 4E version 1, I will wait for the 4.XX version.
Having said all that I, expect the Leadership at Paizo, and leaders you are, to do what is necessary for the continued survival and prosperity of the company. Without your survival and prosperity we will have nowhere else to go
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... or what micro$hit did with a role playing game formerly known as Paranoia XP ...Now, if you want a company who I feel is a bit dickish, look at what Viacom did to White Wolf a decade or so ago with respects to the RPG Aeon.
Or how they've hosed Shadowrun, Battletech, Mechwarrior...but, yeah, I know what you mean.
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Are there enough players willing to make a break from Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons brand to sustain a healthy 3.5-based Pathfinder business? I don't know. A part of me is very skeptical about it, but until we get a chance to evaluate the new rules set, this is exactly the sort of scenario we are forced to consider, and I do not find the prospect wholly without its merits.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Would I stick around for a 3.5 Second Darkness-PF? Are you kidding? Of course, that would be totally awesome!!!
I can't tell you how less I care about that 4E hype. Of course, I think I will give the new PH a chance, to know what it is really all about and because I want to write stuff for whichever company cares. But I am already pi**ed of WotC strategy of telling us all by saying nothing about 4E at all.Paizo is the way to go. The longer you guys stick to 3.5 (or a 3.7 version for that matter) I will be one of the happiest roleplayers on this planet!
I have so many stuff to DM (Ptolus, APs, Dungeon Mags, Pathfinder) that I can play 3.5 even in my next life. I don't like the way WotC is approaching the new edition and I fear it will attract a much younger audience (and maybe ONLY that audience). Of course, it's cool to get new players to play our game, but not if you (as a company) loose track of your older customers who definiately has the money to buy RPG-stuff.
Anyway, I am so glad that you even think about not converting in 2008. I fear you'll have no chance in the future to fully stick to a Paizo 3.7 Version of D&D (which would make me a lifetime subscriber and customer of Paizo goodness!), but I hope it will last as long as your company can afford it!
Thanx for asking us, Erik!
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Folks, .
The clock is ticking, and we still have not seen a copy of the new Fourth Edition rules, nor have we seen a draft of the new SRD. I hear conflicting things from WotC as to when (or even whether) third-party publishers will be provided the rules in time to have 4e-compatible products for next Gen Con…This was, after all, how things worked for trusted publishers during the 2.0/3.0 transition, so I have every reason to believe that the business folks at WotC understand the benefits of third-party support when it comes to converting their audience. But still we wait.
Isn’t it possible that WOTC have learned from the 3E launch, and have deliberately not provided the SRD to outsiders, so as to prevent them having product available on 4E launch day or GenCon?
There could be many at WOTC who do not want a repeat of 2000, when White Wolf’s Creature Collection beat the official Monster Manual to the shelves.The situation could be even more extreme this time around, if reports are to be believed that many (previously considered ‘core’) creatures will not make it into the initial MM, but have to wait until 2009 (rumour says, no frost giants? What the...?).
This makes it even more likely that a third-party will jump in, with stats for common creatures, rather than having to create bizarre new ones from scratch. Delaying the release of the SRD till just before (or even ON or AFTER...) launch date delays this scenario, and gives WOTC time to plug the obvious gaps with online content.
Even assuming that the board of WOTC do understand the value of third-party support (which is not a given), the board of Hasbro do not necessarily feel the same way.
Allowing others to contribute to the 4E hive-mind (at their own expense) is one thing; letting them 'ride into GenCon on board Wizards’ advertising campaign' is another.
Far better (to their minds) for WOTC to withhold the SRD so that any third-party product comes out in late 2008, to kick-start another (cost-free) wave of interest in their core books.
If wizards don´t provide a copy of the core rules or the SRD to 3rd party publishers in time for next years Gen Con (that is what I read out of Erik’s words), that speaks to me that WotC don´t WANT any 3rd parties in the boat - at least not until 2009 or so.
Great minds think alike…
Wouldn't it be an even greater nightmare if they simply wrote the 4.0 OGL, retaining the right of revocation? Then they've got a Damocles sword over all your heads. Let you help convert their base to 4.0 then deprive you of the 4.0 OGL mid publishing cycle, attempting to rupture your finances.
The worst thing in my mind is if WotC uses you, Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, and Mongoose Publishing to bring in all the hold outs because you make better products, then cuts the tether and lets you sink.
I can see them doing that. I want to hope it's not true, but I can see it happening.
I _can't_ see them doing that.
But I also can't guarantee that the people we work with over there today will be the decision-makers when it comes time for 5th edition.
I can see them doing just that.
But then, I’m someone who thought “The Prince” by Machiavelli was a comedy…I hope I’m wrong, but I fear you’re letting your good relations with current WOTC developers and execs (who, I’m sure may have created some great work, and may be great, trusted friends) distract you from the actions of their superiors, with whom you have no shared history, and who owe you absolutely nothing.
You may not be prepared to stab your gaming industry colleagues in the back, or see any need for anyone to do so to you, but you have to admit, such nobility is rare in the world of business (and is a major reason for the devotion and support for Paizo, shown on these forums).
You are thinking as a life-time gamer, an RPGA member, a brother in the family of this hobby. Apart from it not being in your nature, any underhand tactics would result in you being ostracised by the gaming community, which may be more than you could bear. For you, Gaming Is For Life. But how many suits at WOTC are actually gamers? How many suits at Hasbro are gamers? How many even know what RPGs are?
Signing off a budget for D&D4E doesn't prove they understand the hobby, any more than approving the design of a Darth Vader Mr Potato Head proves they've ever watched Star Wars (and even if they did, they could have treated it as a 'work-related' chore, and claimed it on expenses...).
If you are a non-gaming exec, then D&D (whatever edition) is simply 'Product X', and all that matters is that Product X, and its associated tie-ins, make a larger profit for you than for your predecessor. It is irrelevant if your changes adhere to canon, improve the play, dissolve home campaigns, or fracture the fanbase. It is irrelevant if 4E is boycotted by the current players; as long as enough new players are on board to inject huge amounts into the 3 core books, the situation (on paper) is a win. And it is irrelevant if the fans buy the books, read the new rules, and hate them, since they have already paid. It is irrelevant if the changes last, or are discarded in 5th Edition.
Because by that time, the non-gaming exec will have put his 'successful' handling of the 4E roll-out on his CV, and moved on, to another company, where he sells washing powder, or cereals, or <insert unrelated product here>.
I hope I'm wrong, but you cannot rely on hope alone. All I can ask is that if and when you are given the terms and conditions of the SRD, that you get a very good lawyer to give them a serious going-over, to check for clauses allowing retraction or amendment of the SRD, and not assume it's OK just because the guy they send to give it to you happened to be a buddy from your old lunch-time campaign.
If the above seems harsh, I want to reiterate that at no time am I casting aspersions on any gaming individuals who have worked for Paizo, TSR, or WOTC in the past, many of whose work I have enjoyed and still use. I trust them to do the best work they can within their remit, and feel that they are in a very uncomfortable position right now, having to deal with a lot of (in some cases) petty, and deliberate misinterpreting of their statements. I hope that all gaming individuals, from Paizo, WotC, and/or ex-TSR, will continue to be friends and work together in an atmosphere of trust. But they are not the ones you need to watch...
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I work 50 or more hours a week, have a family, and will be going back to school in January to finish my degree. Needless to say, I don't have a lot of time to write my own adventure paths. Wether or not I switch to 4E depends on what happens.
Scenerio #1
The 4E rules vastly improve the game and the 4E OGL allows Paizo the creative freedom to publish awesome adventures.
Scenerio #2
The 4E rules suck or the OGL doesn't allow Paizo to use the 4E rules and Paizo continues to use 3.5 or creates a 3.75 version.
Scenrrio #3
The 4E rules suck and Paizo still switches to the new edition.
I think you should go ahead with your 3.5-based APs, but declare an intent to create 4.0 conversion documents on your website as you release each issue. It's more work--maybe even a grotesque amount of work--but I think it will pay off for you in the long run if you cater to both sides of the rift until the dust settles and the game's future is clearer.
While I like this idea, I think that both James Jacobs and Mike McArtor have said that these sorts of conversions are too much work for Paizo to do, realistically. However, I'm sure some of us here would be prepared to help out with the preparation of 4.0 conversion documents...
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Greetings All,
My crew and I will continue to play 3.5. I only intend to run adventures in 3.5. I have invested enough time/money into this hobby and putting away some 50+ books because the editions change is a little silly at this stage in the game.
I will support Paizo as long as they are putting out 3.5 and supported products but once the change over to 4th edition happens I will have to vote with my dollars. I'm sure we both understand it is a purely financial situation and no hard feelings on either side.
I hope this is what you were looking for Eric as I don't have much time to be flowery in my praise of your good works with both Pathfinder and your earlier work keeping Greyhawk alive and exciting.
Peace Jester.
If Paizo continues to make 3.5 products (I won't even say "quality", because with you lot, that's a given), I'll keep buying 'em. I doubt I'd want to convert, and I'd love it if a company like you continued to publish adventures for the edition I love (granted, I play Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, but it's really the same game).
Folks,
The clock is ticking, and we still have not seen a copy of the new Fourth Edition rules, nor have we seen a draft of the new SRD. I hear conflicting things from WotC as to when (or even whether) third-party publishers will be provided the rules in time to have 4e-compatible products for next Gen Con. I have spoken before (at length) about the uncomfortable position in which this places Paizo, but I remain hopeful that we will get to look at the rules during the playtest phase and plan accordingly. This was, after all, how things worked for trusted publishers during the 2.0/3.0 transition, so I have every reason to believe that the business folks at WotC understand the benefits of third-party support when it comes to converting their audience. But still we wait.
As it stands there remains a chance that Paizo will not convert to 4.0 next year, mostly because we will not have the materials in hand with enough time to do so. The only viable option, at that point, is to stick with 3.5 for the time being. This opens the option of producing an improved "3.75" somewhere down the road to address a few commonly acknowledged problems with the rules without throwing out the three decades of tradition that have kept D&D, fundamentally, the same game since the very beginnig. At that point, it seems, Paizo would be producing a "Pathfinder" RPG that would be wholly independent of Dungeons & Dragons and Hasbro's plans. Such a plan carries with it considerable risk, but it may be the only serious option available to us for 2008.
Beyond that, it's difficult to say. If Fourth Edition is awesome and if the OGL for the game does not tie our hands creatively or financially, we'll certainly strongly consider converting, and again I'd really like to see the material in time to judge whether or not it's a good game that our audience will like. But we've already passed the deadline for August solicitations in the book trade, and at a certain point the window for us to have Fourth Edition material at launch will close....
Pathfinder staying 3.5 would keep me as a subscriber.
My chances of buying, let alone switching, to 4e fall each week, it seems. I feel that the business drivers you've ID'd for 4e are spot on. Clearly, not only am I no longer their desired demographic, they clearly could care less if they lose me as a customer. The direction they are taking the "collectible" aspect of the game is of no interest to me. The mechanical changes fall into the "did we really need a new edition to address?" or the "I've been doing that for years" categories. I'm tired of being told how "cool" everything will be, that we should accept the inevitability of change, and that we should trust them.
I would pre-order a Pathfinder RPG today. Paizo has shown a love of the game, a focus on quality, and a commitment to customers that far exceeds WotC.
If Pathfinder goes 4e, I'll probably continue with Pathfinder until I can determine how easy or difficult it is to convert the material back to 3.5. If, as WotC has indicated it will be, it's not worth converting, then I will have to drop the subscription.
Regardless of your decision - thank you for Paizo's commitment to the game, quality, and its customers.
I think it would depend on how major, but most huge things never get past the initial development, especially experience designers and developers.
But, since it's just rules crunch and what not, I would think so long as the manuscript wasn't released to the printer, they should be able to fix the source document at anytime they want.
Id agree if they didn't keep telling us that the rules are so interconnected in this 4e that they can't explain things until we see the big picture. I guess the most likely big problem would be classes bieng unbalanced which can be fixed late in the game. I just hope they aren't relying on DI edits to fix too many bugs.
The one question I have is how are they playetsting outside the studio if they are only now deciding the magic item section? I know magic items will be less xmas tree (which is good), but it seems a little wierd.
If you wanna try a true pain, try digital development on a large-scale, that is a huge pain.
I think WOTC will have fun with that and DI. :)
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I simply can´t believe that they are playtesting all that much HALF A YEAR before publishing - some kinks and some details, yeah, but the whole beast?)
I don’t believe they’ve even started playtesting…
After all, they never playtested the Occult Slayer (Let’s give an anti-spellcaster a permanent 8th-level spell ability! WooHoo!! Why not give him Symbol of Death and Polymorph any Object while you’re at it? I have to share a table with that abomination…), the Warlock (infinite spells/day), the Bo9S classes (see Turin’s Savage Tide thread for the full horror), the Energy Transformation Field spell (lets have our level 1 henchmen cast 9th level spells, shall we?), or the new items in the Magic Item Compendium (weapon crystals, anyone?).
There's a whole heap of stuff never got playtested; why break the habit now?
I've been playing D&D, in one form or another, since 1979. That's 28 fantastic years that the game has given me. I have learned several different rule systems, and have enjoyed them all (but some more than others.) However, I'm getting older, and more set in my ways. Learning yet another rule system when the old one seems to work just fine seems to be more work than I want to put into my hobby. I am currently part of an outstanding gaming group, and they seem to like 3.5 just fine. Unless 4th ed is the coolest thing since sliced bread and warm puppies, we don't plan to convert.
I think we were sperated at birth. :)
That pretty much sums up my story, too. (Though it's SLIGHTLY less than 28 years, in my case.) ;)
So were the Pathfinder products to remain 3.5, would I still buy them? Hell yes, presuming the content remained as good... if I still buy 2e (and even 1e!) pdfs to use in my 3.5 campaigns, why wouldn't I do the same for Pathfinder?
Yeah, I have an appreciation for older editions, as well, though that doesn't stop me from buying newadventures and campaign settings!
I'm still buying the older PDF's (just finished my Planescape collection, and picked up "Isle of Dread" in preparation for runnning "Savage Tide". (I think the meeting place for the allies in "Enemy of my Enemy" will be in Sigil, given the vast amounts of stuff I have for the line!!) :)
I picked up a subscription to Dragon three or more years ago, and I have been thoroughly impressed with the timeliness, the quality of the articles, and the overall production quality, including the editing. I have picked up several more Paizo products since the demise of Dragon, and the editing is fantastic,unlike recent WotC products such as Undermountain- the words on the tabs for the first section are misspelled, and spelling errors are common throughout every product they have.
I am impressed with Paizo and its people, and though I will buy 4.0 in an effort to support my local game shop and our gaming community in general, I will continue to support Paizo in whatever flavor of system they choose to pursue.
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My opinion of 4th ed is this: not enough solid information. I'll wait until it is no longer vaporware before modifying my opinion any further.
I've been working with a volunteer group putting together a MMTRPG (massively multiplayer tabletop role playing game - see www.mmtrpg.com if you are curious). We have just settled on a setting and are in the process of selecting a game system to run and 3.5 is one of the options. It had occured to me that we could put together our own rulebooks using the OGL if we selected 3.5 as our rules, so I see the interest that Paizo has in doing the same for their product. I also see the risk.
My question is this: is Paizo considering a hardcopy set of rules, a PDF only version, or both?
PDF only would seem to be the least financial risk, possibly using a print-on-demand aspect for those who want a hardcopy. Hardcopy would only work if Paizo is sticking with a Pathfinder RPG for several years and not just as a patch until the 4.0 OGL is available.
Patrick Walsh
Monohedron Games
I haven't seen the 4.0 OGL, and thus I do not know if it will be as flexible as the current one. I also do not know if it will be perpetual, but I do have my doubts. I think a lot of people at Wizards probably view that element of the license as a mistake (an from their perspective, they may be right).I don't know. In some ways the smart money is to convert...
I realize you guys probably are already working with schedules too tight as is but I can't help but feel that you will be in trouble if you try to forge on with 3.5 only.
I personally think Paizo will be okay if they publish 3.5 through 2008 but I would definitely make the switch as soon as possible. Is there a way to develope the third AP for Pathfinder without the crunchy bits and then port those over relatively close to publishing dates?
If not I would say just run with 3.5 until the best time to convert, perhaps put up some online documents to convert the third AP to 4.0 edition half way through? and then go full bore into 4th edition on the following AP.
I like you guys, I would hope you would stay solvent well into the future and even early adopters won't be throwing their 3.5 books into the incinerator any time soon but at some point you have to expect the vast majority will go over in some fashion. In the end I'd go with the smart money here and that has to be 4th edition.
They are just plain busy, not malicious.I think that's naive.
Here, in one hand we have explanation A. Erik Mona, who I believe to be knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion on this matter I trust, says A is true. Clark Peterson, who I believe to be knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion on this matter I trust, says A is true. Scott Rouse, who I KNOW is knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion I am coming to trust (but admittedly is beholden to other masters) says "Sorry, yes A is true."
On the other hand, we have explanation B. No one who is actively involved and knowledgeable about the situation (NO ONE) says B is true. In fact, they state many times that B is not true. However, some people who are not actively involved in the situation and are fans posting on a messageboard believe B is true. They believe that Scott Rouse is lying to everyone and deliberately trying to screw over other companies, and they believe that Erik and Clark are naive enough to utterly fall for it because they like the folks over there.
Now, really, which sounds more reasonable?
Erik has worked his way up to publisher because he seems to know a thing or two about good business decisions. Clark is a lawyer by day and successful RPG publisher by night, and a pretty sharp fella as well. Therefore, since I have not talked to anyone involved and am just a fan posting on a messageboard, I assume Erik and Clark have enough intelligence and business sense to trust their opinions on this matter over conspiracy theories because "all corporations are evil."
Seriously, comparing explanation A and B side by side where everyone involved says A, and no one involved says B, you've got to really be stretching to assume Erik and Clark are that naive and blind. Yet I constantly keep seeing these "No, really, I'm sure WotC is doing this on purpose. Even if you say otherwise, you are just naive and fooled as well, really. Trust me, I know they are being mean because that's good business sense."
(I can just see the Michael Douglas "Greed is good" speech being played on a constant loop on screens throughout the drab gray WotC offices while Scott Rouse sits at a desk made of the broken dreams of failed publishers.) :)
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Sure. WotC hasn't delivered the SRD to other companies because they're too busy.
If something is important, you make time for it. If they don't want to cross town, they can put it in the mail. Or Fedex.
The fact of the matter is that while there are certainly excuses for not delivering the 4.0 SRD to 3rd party publishers, there aren't really GOOD excuses. They didn't have to evacuate their offices due to wildfires like the company I work for (not my regional office). They weren't locked out due to an Anthrax scare perpetuated by angry gamers.
Now, maybe they don't have a version ready to share. I'd believe that as well. Depending on who you ask, a lot of the rules seem 'unclear' or 'unfinished'.
What I'd like to know is, Erik, when do you think you'll be able to announce with certainy if and when you would switch to 4.0? Can you tell us if Pathfinder 3 will be 3.5 at some date in the near future? I know your deadlines are coming close to at least get the authors working on it. Does WotC have to get the material to you in the next 3 days to make conversion a possibility? The next 15 days?
Thanks.
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For me, I am still not sure what to expect from 4th edition. The way WotC is handling the PR on this is really bad. Most of the articles that are supposed to be "leaking" info have mostly been puff pieces that still don't really tell us anything about how things actually work. They are all of the variety...
WotC Nameless Exec: In my Saturday night group we have converted to 4th edition and it is SO AWESOME!!!!
Me: So tell me about the new mechanics and how they are changing the game for the better?
WotC Exec: No problem, we were playing the hidden level of the subtarranean level of doom and it was so cool the party didn't have to stop to rest at all because these rules are SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: Right I heard that the first time, but how do they actually work?
WotC Exec: The online format TOTALLY ROCKS. It is so much better than the crappy game you played before. We totally changed things around so that there aren't two evil female seductress creatures anymore and now the Succubus is a Devil and it is SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: Ok fine it is great I get it, but how do the new rules work on any issue?
WotC: One of our players had to make a Wizard because there aren't any Psions and even though he was resistant to it, now he agrees with all of us that it is SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: I don't think you are really listening. What I want to know is a specific example of how the new rules are better for the game. Show me someething. Anything.
WotC: We have so much CRAZY COOL information that we can't share it just yet. But in the weeks and months to come we guarantee that you will see how this game is going to be SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: Ummmm you have been saying that for 4 months now. I want to see how any of this is better. Why did you kill Dungeon and Dragon Mags? Why are all these changes to components of the game that have existed for the entire 22 years I have been playing this game needed or even beneficial? Come on guys you have to have something you can say to me.
WotC: We changed plenty of stuff because the old game sucked. But don't worry, we have been using the new stuff here and we want you to know that it is SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: Ok I quit
WotC: Keep buying everything we produce between now and when the new CORE RULEBOOKS OF AWESOMENESS come out next year. As you can see from all the SWEET info we have given you this game is going to be SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Personally I am about to the point that I am ready to just stick with 3rd edition on principle. I'm tired of the bogus PR campaign. I'm tired of the changes to the core cosmology and other aspects of the game that make it D&D. Mostly I'm tired of WotC pretending like they don't have to justify anything to me because I am an old school gamer anyway and they aren't interested in me anymore because they are too busy selling some 13 year old WoW gamer on the digital features of a game that is only D&D because WotC owns the rights to the material and can slap the D&D brand name on whatever piece of cow manure they make and babble on about how cool it is and that somehow is supposed to sell me. Whatever. You guys at Paizo make great products, and I will continue to buy them. When 4th ed. releases, I will look at the PHB at my local game store. If it is even one iota less than the second coming of Jesus I am not buying it.
The reason is simple. If all WotC has to say about their product is how awesome it is, it better be freaking unbelievably awesome or the product won't justify the year of crappy PR, disgustingly useless "preview" articles, and complete disregard for me as a consumer that WotC has shown since the 4th ed. release announcement. If the new rules are that good, then outstanding. If not, I won't buy a single 4th edition product and that would include any made by Paizo. I love the work you guys do, but I am sick of being jerked around. If you guys have to convert for the survival of your business I don't begrudge you that. I will buy all the Pathfinder stuff you guys make that is 3.5 edition and have more than enough material to run games until I die. If you guys go with a modified 3.75 ruleset I am far more likely to buy it just because you guys actually have great customer service and seem to care about what we as gamers think. You produce high quality work at an affordable price. Unless 4th edition is so good my mortal mind can scarcely comprehend it (just like WotC seems to want to convince everyone it is) I won't buy it on principle for the crappy treatment the gaming community has recieved from WotC.
They are a company, but I am their customer. If they as a company don't meet my expectations as a customer, I am free to take my money elsewhere. I was very optimistic about the new 4th edition ruleset, but since the announcement, WotC has done just about everything short of coming to my house and defecating in my cereal to make me not want to buy even one more of their products. Whoever was in charge of this transition needs to be fired. The damage to the loyal consumer base is reaching unrepairable levels now. I will support you guys so long as you continue to make a great product and continue to have great customer service and relations. However, if 4th edition isn't spectacular, I won't be buying any 4th edition products from anyone. So if that happens, I want you guys to stick with 3.5 edition or an itteration thereof. If you have to switch even if the rules aren't great, then I will continue to purchase products from you guys, just not any 4th edition ones.
That was a bit of a rant, but it is how I feel about it.
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I think that's naive.If the spectrum of possibilities for the delay were a line, with anti-3e as one extreme and totally giving WotC the benefit of the doubt is the other extreme, then the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Most likely example of the truth:
WotC is busy as heck and other companies are not a priority to their thought and, thus, slips their mind.
It's not malicious, or conspiratorial, it's just part of being busy and working under the gun of getting things lined up, play-tested, and published.
So, Paizo and others have done what they can within channels, by talking with WotC, and outside of channels, by polling their consumer-base with options, both of which could get them the materials they need, ASAP, or give them the options they need to go forward with their business.
If WotC was truly against OGL, then they wouldn't have 4e in an OGL, which last I hear, from a lot of people I trust, as well as from WotC, it is a part of it.
So while some may be naive, I think your simple sentence is a bit over reaching with it's own implications, too.
*chuckles*
Yes, I tend to throw a lot of text at things and I cannot believe that I could write that much in response to such a small sentence.
Robert N. Emerson
Grand Master Delver CuDraoi at Delver's Square
Magister of Glen Ravin
The Emerson PapersEx Ignorantia Ad Sapientiam; E Luce Ad Tenebras
I thought about a joke with a really small sentence to see if I could elicit a long response again *chuckles*, and you're right. That was a very brief response. Let me put my thought this way: there are tons of well meaning, game loving folk at WoTC who want a world of co-opetition. I believe that with you, whole heartedly, and I don't know half as many of them as others on these boards. That said, there are people at WoTC/Hasbro who are paid to make sure income is optimized. IF (and how should I know, I'm just speculating) the opinion about OGL's effect on the bottom line has changed, then I think its naive to believe that there are no long term plans to phase out OGL or to limit its ability to allow others to compete. This doesn't preclude tons of honest, hard-working, creative game loving folk at WoTC from wanting to back OGL and it doesn't preclude them from being simply too busy to meet deadlines to which they have committed. When strategizing I just don't think one should ignore the possibility that OGL is on the long-term chopping block. Now, since both the Economist and the entire RPG game industy no longer solicit my opinions, I'm really just talking out of school and jawing. :^)
Hi Eric,
Paizo produces superior products. As long as that continues, I will continue buying the product. I won't be using any of this material for awhile anyway. Its still a good read.
Paizo should follow the path that best suits where you guys want to go. Continue producing the high quality and customers will follow.
Its clear all of you care about what you are doing. What ever decision you decide on, I'm there.
Brent's post above is way to long to quote...But it perfectly sums up my feelings. If you blew past it because of the overwhelming size of this thread go back and give it a read.
So in short I will stick with Pathfinder and Game Mastery Moduals for the long haul until I die if they remain 3.5.
If they convert to 4th then I will drop off and just use all the 3rd edition stuff I've accumulated.
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WotC Nameless Exec: In my Saturday night group we have converted to 4th edition and it is SO AWESOME!!!!...<snip>
That was excellent!
I think I've seen that thread on the WOTC website.
Under the heading "Why We Think Paizo Fans Are Annoying Grognard Dinosaurs Who Won't Stop Bugging Us And Get Down With The Program"?
Snorter, if you keep that up they are going to take Gorgons out of 4th edition.
To Brent. You are SO AWESOME!
Seriously...thats about how I see it too. Lets just pull the string again and hear what he says next!
I'll throw my support with the 'as goes Paizo, so I go' crowd. Over the last couple of years, the quality of WOTC products has been steadily declining while Paizo continues to develop adventures and source material of the highest quality. While WOTC-published adventures are becoming little more than a dungeon, dressing, and a backstory (see Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde), Paizo has continuously raised the bar on adventures with the 3 Dungeon Adventure paths and now the Gamemastery and Pathfinder lines. I think what cemented my decision to follow Paizo was when I realized that the only two WOTC-published adventures released for 3.5 that I found worth a damn happened to be written by...folks from Paizo!
I am very ambivalent about 4.0. While I will probably pick up the core books, as I am a obsessive-compulsive collector of RPG rules sets, WOTC is really going to have to sell me on the new system. Like many others here, I bought a ton of 3.5 material, and my gaming groups have barely scratched the surface of useable crunch. Likewise, I've got 1 1/2 Dungeon adventure paths (halfway through Savage Tide/done shackled City), Maure Castle, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk to run, not to mention Pathfinder, before I come close to running out of material. With my recent subscription to the GameMastery modules, I have a feeling I'll have enough material to keep my gaming groups busy until my retirement.
If it becomes feasible for Paizo to convert the GameMastery and Pathfinder lines to 4.0 and you do so, I will definitely convert, happy to have a setting that will not require the investment in hundreds of WOTC splat books, each of lesser quality and worse editing than the one before it.
If you decide to continue with the current OGL, I will likewise continue supporting Pathfinder and Gamemastery in its current incarnation. I will continue to play the D&D game my gaming groups have come to enjoy as long as you guys are making material for it.
If you release a 3.Paizo rulebook or series of rulebooks for the Pathfinder/Gamemastery world, I will gladly retire my D&D 3.5 books and pick up what I am sure will be an improved, refined, and better-polished system.
I think I've seen that thread on the WOTC website.
Under the heading "Why We Think Paizo Fans Are Annoying Grognard Dinosaurs Who Won't Stop Bugging Us And Get Down With The Program"?
I thought Brent's post was funny too.
And I've never been to ENWorld ot WOTC's forums before yesterday. And I read some of what you're referring to Snorter and I didn't care much for it.
Ken M. pointed out that I should keep cool and not read too much more into WOTC's actions other than honest disorganization and extreme busy-ness.. and I am going to try to bear that in mind.
What the WOTC/ENWorld Forum critics of the Paizo fans fail to understand or at least appreciate, is that some of us are starting an investment in Pathfinder. It's new, it's different, and it's fresh in an old style way. I feel it's too late to jump onto the FR/Eberron bandwagon, and I've had great success with Pathfinder almost instantly.
I want to see my campign setting of choice supported.
Now if WOTC wants an opportunity to sell me some books, they'll make that happen, and both companies will have an opportunity to get my custom. If Erik says there is no treachery here, like Ken pointed out earlier, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and try to be patient.
But getting back to WOTC forums and ENWorld's Forums, if those guys don't realize that this is just as much a business decision for me, as it is Paizo, then they're incorrect. They can bet against me, but they'll lose.
No 4th Edition consideration till I see my campaign setting supported. I won't be switching campaign setting to accomodate the rules. That relationship between rules and campaign setting goes the other way around.
I go with the talent.
I say produce a cheap Pathfinder RPG 3.75 to buy time, and later a more polished version if your worst fears about D&D 4e/Wotc policy comes true.
I may not buy a Pathfinder RPG, but will most certainly buy a 3.75 Adventure Path AP3.
I find the 4e hype tiresome and are more than happy to wait 6 more months before converting.
FR 4e may make me change my mind, but I seriously doubt it.
Well. I didn't read the entire thread...but I'll weigh in with my opinion. I'll buy story and setting over rules any day. I can play with 3.5 or 3.75 (Saga style or other) for the forseeable future.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if you guys found some way to make totally generic materials. I read over the OGL the other day and, frankly, there's no way I'd base a business on something that another company can yank out from under me at any time. Maybe I misread it.
M
Well. I didn't read the entire thread...but I'll weigh in with my opinion. I'll buy story and setting over rules any day. I can play with 3.5 or 3.75 (Saga style or other) for the forseeable future.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if you guys found some way to make totally generic materials. I read over the OGL the other day and, frankly, there's no way I'd base a business on something that another company can yank out from under me at any time. Maybe I misread it.
M
The OGL, in its current form, cannot be yanked.
The d20 license, on the otherhand, can be.
Since the prevailing feeling is that the d20 logo hurts a product more than it helps it, that's not a disaster.
- Ashavan
The OGL, in its current form, cannot be yanked.
The d20 license, on the otherhand, can be.
Since the prevailing feeling is that the d20 logo hurts a product more than it helps it, that's not a disaster.
- Ashavan
Forgive my total ignorance...But what is the difference between the OGL and the d20 licence?
Ive noticed the GameMastery and Pathfinder stuff does not have the d20 logo on them and just found that very strange.
I like Paizo so here’s my honest profile and feedback in the hopes that it plays a small part in helping you prep for 2008 and beyond.
I have not converted to Pathfinder purely on price. I used to subscribe to Dungeon for $40ish per year (I think) versus $168 ($14ish dollars per month) for Pathfinder. I’ve heard the argument about the volume of content on a dollar basis being similar, and I am confident that it is high quality. I also know that it is not a direct “apples to apples” comparison, but Pathfinder is one Adventure Path versus what I used to get being one AP plus 2 other adventures each and every month. I am explaining this not to open a debate about the benefits of Pathfinder, but to illustrate who I am so you can potentially disregard my comments. Like I said, I think Paizo is a good company with talented folks and I hope you’re around for years to come. I seem to be in the minority on my assessment of Pathfinder and if Pathfinder has been doing as well or better for you financially then you should probably ignore me and listen to these other folks.
I have been playing D&D since the 70s. I play with a core group of friends from childhood. Mostly we play D&D, but we also play Mutants and Masterminds. We actually play a bastardized version of D&D that is a mix of Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved and 3.5 rules. We don’t care about continuity in the official D&D world at all. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron… none of that is important to us. If it works for our game we use it. I’ve never run a module 100% out of the box – massive alterations are made to everything I run in order to tailor it to my group.
If 4.0 looks good and I personally think it will, I’m going to switch. I think Iron Heroes does a lot of things right so having Mike Mearls working on 4.0 is a huge plus for me. Version 3.5 is good (so much better than AD&D) but not even in the ballpark of perfect.
4.0 is not about Tieflings as a core race or Succubae as devils or demons or whatever. It is not about the “points of light in the darkness” concept. That is as important as the cover art in my opinion. Cover art is nice and helps to spur the imagination, but the best cover art on the planet does not make a good game. The game is a system that helps us referee our adult version of make believe. If it does that better than my crazy hobbled together version of 3.5 then I am onboard.
The value of Paizo for me equals the value of Dungeon Magazine (may she rest in peace.) You bring story and inspiration, backed up with time saving stat blocks, maps and NPCs. Creativity and Time. In application, those are the two most important elements for the RPG gamer.
I think your smallness is the key to your success. Stay flexible. I believe you need to hedge your bets. There are enough die hard 3.5ers in your customer base that you should support them no matter what for a coming year or two, but you must be ready to jump over to 4.0 if it takes off. You will be left in the dust if you don’t.
Aren’t there parallels to the D&D 2.0 era? If 4.0 flops like that it won’t be about 3.5 living on, but about a different system jumping in and taking over the market buzz the way White Wolf did with the storyteller system. Were I in your shoes I would be not only trying to identify 4.0’s viability within the market, but looking for other systems that will take the forefront if 4.0 is a dog. Or, perhaps your proposed 3.75 system will be that alternative.
I wish you guys the best of luck and hope you come out on top of the current upheaval.
4e could be the New Coke of RPGs. Think of the investment in marketing, research and production that was squandered by Coca-cola. After the customers spoke we had the 'return' of Classic Coke. Could happen with WOTC.
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I feel like I need to point out that no one here begrudges Wizards a single thing. Honestly, the idea that they would share the rules with other companies before they are released is a huge deal, and one all third-party companies really appreciate.
Wizards has been cool with us, and we like to think we've been cool with them. For five years, at least, we have had a very up-front relationship. I hope that that remains to be the case going forward, and I have every reason to expect that this will be so.
Their timelines do not currently match up with ours. _I_ cannot get the things I need to get done done in a single day, and I am not managing the relaunch of one of the best-known entertainment brands in history. I don't blame them for not getting us this stuff by now, and I'm not mad at them.
I am facing a ticking clock, and I'm forced to consider multiple options on where we might go from here. One of those options is sticking with 3.5, and I felt it important to ask our audience how they feel on the matter.
I am not trying to stir up "anti-4e" sentiment or resentment toward Wizards of the Coast.
We wish them the best success with 4e. A strong 4e will lead to a much stronger RPG market, which is good for all publishers.
--Erik
I think we're all on board with you Eric. For myself, I think the sentiment you are picking up on is anxiety, plain and simple. We all love the game, and we all fear there is a higher corporate power that through lack of understanding will make moves that sink or hurt the hobby (and Paizo -- our favorite publisher in it!). That anxiety needs a voice to ease it, and the Paizo forums gives us a place to speak. So, thanks for that, too.
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It is an awesome thing that WotC would share their rules with other developers and an integral to a thriving market to "share" the wealth.
Personally, I'm not saying its a bad thing, but I'm less impressed. They make more money on the core books than anything else. Core books are like an operating system. Opening up the core rules for others to create adventure and supplement products, just looks like giving operating system secrets to developers so they can make programs. Programs drive operating system sales. Similarly, Paizo adventures help drive core book sales, but making people want to continue playing the game. That's the theory, anyway. So its not so awesome, its just a business model.
As a consumer, its a business model I like a lot, because it means more options and choices for me. So, hip hip the OGL.
If we're not going to demonize, we shouldn't lionize either, neh? :^)
I say produce a cheap Pathfinder RPG 3.75 to buy time, and later a more polished version if your worst fears about D&D 4e/Wotc policy comes true.
I don't think "cheap" (as in quickly produced dreck) is in Paizo's vocabulary.
Erik, (Or Mike, Vic or anyone other Paizo staff watching the thread)
I'm assuming this was a given based on your first post to kick off this thread, but... is there enough time between now and Gencon for Paizo to develop a 3.paizo edition and get it printed?
If there is still time.... at what point does that window close? (*At least without you spending 80 hour weeks working on two major product lines, as you guys did with the transition)
I don't think "cheap" (as in quickly produced dreck) is in Paizo's vocabulary.
Well, yes, but it can quickly become so if Erik makes the wrong decision at this point, or blows a lot of cash on a lame duck.
Were I in your shoes I would be not only trying to identify 4.0’s viability within the market, but looking for other systems that will take the forefront if 4.0 is a dog.Unfortunately, we can't do that. We don't know what 4e looks like, yet, and we are running out of time.
How about a phase in? Stick with 3.5, but offer conversion notes online while the dust settles.
I will likely convert to 4.0. That said, your conversion, or failure to convert will not likely keep me from purchasing Paizo products, at least in the short term. I have been hugely satisfied with your management of Dungeon and Dragon, and am equally happy with the new adventure path products. I anticipate that my gaming group will likely continue to play both 3.5, as well as 4.0. I know for a fact that we will finish Age of Worms, as well as play all of STAP, possibly converted to 4.0, but maybe not. I also intend to run Runelords at some point in the future with the same caveat.
As to a 3.75 PHB type thing, I am not sure that I would purchase something like that. I am not all that interested in a second new system on top of the 4.0 launch. Just my two cents.
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They are just plain busy, not malicious.I think that's naive.Here, in one hand we have explanation A. Erik Mona, who I believe to be knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion on this matter I trust, says A is true. Clark Peterson, who I believe to be knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion on this matter I trust, says A is true. Scott Rouse, who I KNOW is knowledgeable about the situation and whose opinion I am coming to trust (but admittedly is beholden to other masters) says "Sorry, yes A is true."
On the other hand, we have explanation B. No one who is actively involved and knowledgeable about the situation (NO ONE) says B is true. In fact, they state many times that B is not true. However, some people who are not actively involved in the situation and are fans posting on a messageboard believe B is true. They believe that Scott Rouse is lying to everyone and deliberately trying to screw over other companies, and they believe that Erik and Clark are naive enough to utterly fall for it because they like the folks over there.
Now, really, which sounds more reasonable?
Erik has worked his way up to publisher because he seems to know a thing or two about good business decisions. Clark is a lawyer by day and successful RPG publisher by night, and a pretty sharp fella as well. Therefore, since I have not talked to anyone involved and am just a fan posting on a messageboard, I assume Erik and Clark have enough intelligence and business sense to trust their opinions on this matter over conspiracy theories because "all corporations are evil."
Seriously, comparing explanation A and B side by side where everyone involved says A, and no one involved says B, you've got to really be stretching to assume Erik and Clark are that naive and blind. Yet I constantly keep seeing these "No, really, I'm sure WotC is doing this on purpose. Even if you say otherwise, you are just naive and fooled as well,...
Well, Ken, with all due respect, I have to say I found that a bit dismissive. Also -- and I'm willing to admit, entirely due to my failure to explain -- a misunderstanding of my point. Here's the place I found you dismissive: for all you know I'm a Hasbro exec or Warren Buffets mentor. I might be more knowledgable or experienced in business than you are willing to grant. Second, the argument from authority leaves me underwhelmed as it encourages passivity -- and I'm too anxious about the fate of my hobby to be passive.
Here's why: despite the proven integrity and proven acumen of all the persons you mentioned -- whom I respect immensely, even having met only a few of them -- my point is a "what if" point. What if, despite what the knowledgeable and experienced believe is going on, they are wrong?
This is really an emotional point. The company that killed my favorite magazines wants me to trust that they aren't killing my favorite game -- and to buy their new stuff.
When I see an action that puts my favorite publisher of my favorite game material in precarious position (for whatever reason), I'm entitled to some suspicion. More importantly, I'm entitled to some anxiety -- hell, some downright fear.
I believe that all the good, insightful people who say "don't worry" really mean it and aren't worried themselves. I eschew the paranoia that leads to the "but of course they have to say nice things" kind of irrefutable argument. But my business acumen and experience (which I'll say, since you made a point of qualifications, is extensive though in unrelated industries) tell me that despite the best intentions of those who care, they might be wrong.
This thought scares me, and being able to share and discuss that fear with a community of people who also care is a relief and something I value.
The fears, however, are not baseless. Otherwise I'd be crazy and not just worried.
Last and most imporantly, I never said nor do I believe that "Scott Rouse is lying to everyone and deliberately trying to screw over other companies, and they believe that Erik and Clark are naive enough to utterly fall for it because they like the folks over there." Nor, as the owner of a corporation, would I take the position that all corporations are evil. Ultimately, I didn't like having those words put in my mouth. So, no hard feelings or anything, but you see where I'm coming from now?
The OGL, in its current form, cannot be yanked.
The d20 license, on the otherhand, can be.
Since the prevailing feeling is that the d20 logo hurts a product more than it helps it, that's not a disaster.
- Ashavan
Forgive my total ignorance...But what is the difference between the OGL and the d20 licence?
Ive noticed the GameMastery and Pathfinder stuff does not have the d20 logo on them and just found that very strange.
There are two very different licenses out there concerning d20.
Quick and dirty:
Open Gaming License (OGL) - allows you to use "open" material from another company. It is what "releases" the SRD/d20 ruleset and makes open gaming possible. With it, once material is open to other publishers it can never be closed back off. That's why companies can keep publishing 3.5 (and 3.0 for that matter) from now until eternity.
The d20 System Trademark License (d20 STL) doesn't deal with any rules or other material. It is the license WotC put out to let companies put the d20 logo and the words "Requires the use of the D&D PHB, etc." on the books. It is just for marketing and product identification purposes. This has further restrictions (no adult content, WotC can revoke at any time, etc.) than the OGL.
So, basically (nothing involving lawyers is this basic, but anyway) the OGL lets you use the d20 rules. The d20 STL lets you actually say "This is a D&D/d20 product." Some companies have started avoiding the d20 logo because consumers now generally know what is a D&D compatible product and what is not. And so many d20 products hit the market that distributors started to have a distaste for anything with that logo.
Ahh...Got it.
Thanks Ken :)
Were I in your shoes I would be not only trying to identify 4.0’s viability within the market, but looking for other systems that will take the forefront if 4.0 is a dog.Unfortunately, we can't do that. We don't know what 4e looks like, yet, and we are running out of time.
To be first out of the gate? Not to be snarky, but who cares? I know you have long lead times in the publishing world, but I think 2008 is still the year of 3.5 for you guys. From the bits and pieces I've seen the challenge for Paizo is how to cover itself in the "no man's land" between now, the launch of 4.0 and when you could legitimately get a new product to market. Isn't supporting the die hard 3.5ers the way to go for the short term? So rather than try to predict the outcome of the launch, buy yourselves more time. Seems to me that at the time the 4.0 books come out you'll be lagging sales wise anyway until the shiny newness wears off those new rule books.
Maybe you can offer anyone that purchases the new Pathfinder a 4.0 conversion PDF for free once available. I know, conversion won't be easy, but you're not going to tell me that you won't be able to figure something out.
BTW, you guys are killing me. Here I am goofing off at work, but I'm discussing brand launches... which is what I do for work! Stop it!
Now if this is really, really, really about deciding if you should launch a Paizo version versus 4.0 (rather than 3.5 vs. 4.0) then I think you absolutely need to survive through 2008. You cannot go head to head against the launch of 4.0. The only way to succeed with that plan is to develop your version and wait for the furor of the 4.0 launch to die down enough for you to grab some of the attention. Either way 2008 seems to be the year you focus and move to the top of the initiative round in 2009.