Does the Half Dragon Template (ECL 3) or the Feral Template (ECL 1 to 4...I have it at ECL 3) get Hit Dice/Hit Points? According to my DM they don't. Looking for an answer here, it doesnt make sense. Dont have Savage Species, and dont know if it shows increase in HD. Half Dragon Template according to D20 website states that the base creature's HD increase by one, but not past D12. Thought that meant that your base HD would increase by one, and you got 3D for your ECL 3 Half Dragon level. is this correct?
Sadly Zain, half-dragon does not in and of itself include any racial HD whatsoever. Thus, if a PC gets it, they get NO HD size increase. Further, only thier racial HD get the bump in size, not thier class-derived HD. This is from memory of the 3.5 Monster Manual.
This makes it clear (to me) that the half-(whatever) templates are generally meant to be applied to critters rather than character types. They CAN be applied to character types, but that +3 Level Adjustment just royally slams the anchor on xp gain...
Feral, frankly, is more than a bit out of whack as a template, especially for player characters. Even moreso when the player conveniently forgets about that incrementally-increasing level adjustment...
The Feral template's LA does not increase as the character goes up in levels. It remains a constant +1 LA. The reason the CR increases with HD is because the Fast Healing increases with HD and it gains new Special Attacks as well. Note, this is racial HD, not HD from class levels. That's why the LA doesn't increase.
And yeah. No extra HD (and note: the HD increase only affects racial HD).
Some of the templates, despite their high LA still might be worth the entry price. I'm thinking particularly of Half-Celestial, beyond giving one wings, spell like abilities, natural energy resistances and a littl;e natural armour this template gives about +20 to your stats.
At the OP. Turin's right. Half Dragon does not add any HD. 1st level Half Dragons, besides being considered 4th level for XP, just have that 1 HD. Your somewhat compensated as you gain a few levels because your con is going to be through the roof and your getting extra hps at every HD from that bonus to con but low level Half Dragons are like 1st edition wizards - often dead before they get a chance to come into their own.
The Feral template's LA does not increase as the character goes up in levels. It remains a constant +1 LA. The reason the CR increases with HD is because the Fast Healing increases with HD and it gains new Special Attacks as well. Note, this is racial HD, not HD from class levels. That's why the LA doesn't increase.
And yeah. No extra HD (and note: the HD increase only affects racial HD).
And Xellan has nicely, directly pointed at what makes Feral so broken. NO class grants such awesome melee prowess (IIRC, four attack options normally found only in animals...) AND Fast Healing in the fashion that the template does, for a paltry +1 level adjustment. For a once-in-a-blue-moon encounter, feral is acceptable. For a PC ... intolerable, imo.
Some of the templates, despite their high LA still might be worth the entry price. I'm thinking particularly of Half-Celestial, beyond giving one wings, spell like abilities, natural energy resistances and a littl;e natural armour this template gives about +20 to your stats.
At the OP. Turin's right. Half Dragon does not add any HD. 1st level Half Dragons, besides being considered 4th level for XP, just have that 1 HD. Your somewhat compensated as you gain a few levels because your con is going to be through the roof and your getting extra hps at every HD from that bonus to con but low level Half Dragons are like 1st edition wizards - often dead before they get a chance to come into their own.
As you pointed out for half-dragons Jeremy, the trick is that huge level adjustment directly translates into multiple missing HD. Despite the significant additional ability score bumps, they simply don't equate to the necessary BaB, base saves, skill points and raw hp (let alone class abilities) that the missing HD/class levels provide. Same principle applies to any half- template - the LA is often not worth the sheer lost HD/class levels... often resulting in critterkibble...
Anyhoo, sorry to beat the horse past -10hp... excellent posts!
And Xellan has nicely, directly pointed at what makes Feral so broken. NO class grants such awesome melee prowess (IIRC, four attack options normally found only in animals...) AND Fast Healing in the fashion that the template does, for a paltry +1 level adjustment. For a once-in-a-blue-moon encounter, feral is acceptable. For a PC ... intolerable, imo.
Actually, I don't consider the Feral template to be broken. I consider it a strong +1 LA, or potentially a solid +2, depending on the preferences of the DM and his campaign style.
First off, one thing to keep in mind is that those nifty charted abilities do not get better with level. Those increases are a function of racial HD, not any HD gained from class levels (meaning they get a flat Fast healing 2, and improved grab and that's it for most PC races). So unless you're allowing multi HD creatures as PCs, not that big a deal.
The speed boost is nice, but this is purely to get this thing in melee range. Battlefield mobility is a /good/ thing for everyone concerned - players and DMs alike - because it means the combat doesn't drag on needlessly. The +6 Natural Armor may seem huge, but it's at least partially mitigated by the -2 Dex penalty and makes up for the likelihood of this character shunning the heavier armors.
The natural attack routine is also nice, especially at low levels where the extra attack is going to help. However, the attack it gets isn't anything spectacular; it's the equivalent of a simple weapon, the morningstar without the dual damage type. And improved grab simply encourages the character to focus on a single enemy, tangling them up in what could prove to be an effective grappling tactic. Most PC races won't get the additional combat abilities, but even if you allowed it, it just continues to build on that effective grapple tactic and supplants iterative attacks the warrior would have gotten anyway. Maybe allow them as feats.
The fast healing in actual combat isn't all that big a deal, equating to an extra 10 HP in the span of an expected 5 rounds of fighting. It's outside the combat this ability really shines, reducing the need for that after-battle healing. While this may seem strong, it loses some of its oomph at later levels (especially since they aren't getting increases up to fast healing 5) when the feral character has a lot more HP and may not always have time to rest between encounters.
The ability bonuses... Meh. Such a character is going to have crap skill points and isn't likely to end up with an uber AC without some serious devotion to it in the form of magic items, and the heavier armor forces a sacrifice of precious mobility.
Overall, the feral template ends up being one of those where the +1 LA is constantly justified throughout a 20 level career. I'd even consider allowing its abilities to advance with class HD, though I'd seriously consider bumping it to a +2 LA at that point. Personally, I consider it a benchmark of what a +1 LA /should/ be - it makes me feel like I actually got something comparable to a class level for the sacrifice I made, not an ever diminishing return.
Xellan, I think you have outlined what the persons using the template in play that I have seen have conveniently forgotten: that the template benefits are all keyed off of racial HD. Unless the template forgets to stipulate "racial HD" however, your elegant and concise counterpoint drop in the drink ... :(
I do not have Savage Species with me to check it myself, so I beg forgiveness in advance if I am mistaken and Xellan is correct. It would be nice to be able to attribute the racial HD element of the template to certain players however...
As you pointed out for half-dragons Jeremy, the trick is that huge level adjustment directly translates into multiple missing HD. Despite the significant additional ability score bumps, they simply don't equate to the necessary BaB, base saves, skill points and raw hp (let alone class abilities) that the missing HD/class levels provide. Same principle applies to any half- template - the LA is often not worth the sheer lost HD/class levels... often resulting in critterkibble...
Well at the end of the day characters are pretty much a set of statistics that we play with. There are so many variables that its not exactly an exact science to compare them but lets take a shot at it. Right off the bat we can pretty much ignore any class that is big on spell casting. Its pretty much never worth it to take level adjustments if your a spell caster.
So if I got 4 levels of fighter what do I get?
Well a couple of fighter feats,
A general feat from my HD
A stat boost
+4 to my BAB
4d10 hps (sweet!)
+2 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will
Probably 8 skill points
OK if instead I'm a Half Celestial I get
to fly
I get some bonus cleric spells, chosen for me generally as if I was a cleric of whatever HD I have.
some really minor stuff, I can occasionally smite evil, I can make light, I am immune to disease, I get a big bonus to save vs. poison, darkvision if I don't already have it.
OK on to the better stuff +1 AC from natural armour
Resistance Cold 10, Electricity 10, Acid 10
Damage Reduction 5 or 10/magic
Spell Resistance of 10+my HD
+4 strength = +2 BAB and +2 to damage
+2 Dex = +1 reflex save and +1 AC
+4 Con = +2 hp per HD, +2 Fort save
+2 Int = +1 skill point
+4 Wis = +2 Will save
+4 Chr = Umm - better then average in your dump stat?
Generally speaking I'd say that the Half-Celestial just gives you more stuff. Now the fighter levels are better if we are talking about a 5th level fighter vs. a 1st level Half-Celestial Fighter but its not so clear cut at all when we are talking about a 10th level fighter versus a 6th level Half Celestial Fighter.
At this point those 4d10 bonus hps garnered you about 22 hps on average but the bonus to con from the Half-Celestial would give you about 12 hps so the fighter is ahead by 10 hps. Here though the Half-Celestial has an extra +2 to AC, DR and a bunch of energy resistances. Over the course of say 4 encounters there is a pretty good chance that these bonuses will save you from taking 10 hps worth of damage. Admittedly they might not come into play but then again they might be used again and again in these 4 encounters, especially that +2 to AC - thats the gift that keeps on giving.
Saving throw wise the Half-Celestial has the edge as each gets a total of +4 to their saves but the Half-Celestial has abilities such as immunity to disease and a big bonus to poison saves the Half-Celestial often has extra fortitude when it counts. I'd also say that the generally more spread out bonus for the half celestial are better then what the fighter gets. As a fighter the half-celestial will still have a really good Fort save though not an unbeatable fort save but will now have a better chance of making those will and reflex saves.
The BAB is better for the fighter but the Half-Celestial gets the equivalent of +2 BAB and +2 Damage, plus some spells that might increase this a bit more. I'd say their close to even, maybe the fighter has a slight edge here - being able to hit is a good thing.
The 8 or so skill points is close to equaled at this level by the Half-Celestials bonus of +6 to skill points from intelligence
Maybe the area where comparisons are hardest is 3 feats versus, the ability to fly, some magic spells, and Spell Resistance, in general I think if I could take a feat that gave me SR I probably would, I'd also generally be willing to sacrifice a feat to fly. The only hard one is the feat for 8 spells at 10th level but here its not like the spells are awful for the most part, cure serous wounds could sure come in handy, I could see the value of aid, bless and protection from evil, minor stuff but it adds to my hps or chance to hit or AC all useful things for a fighter.
Finally I think these boosts to stats are often very useful in pumping up something like strength, A bonus to intelligence and charisma, on the face of it don't help much but it means that I don't have to spend many or any points here to get average scores, same deal with Wisdom, Thus I can pump more of my points into strength, con and dex.
All in all I can see why one would avoid the half celestial build at very low levels, at this stage the hps or just to low, by mid levels I think the Half-Celestial is very competitive with the bonus 4 levels and after this, as one moves into the later levels the Half-Celestial will become clearly the superior option and the difference in hps and skill points shrink while the Half Celestial picks up better DR and much better spells.
Most excellent points Jeremy - both in thier greater appeal for high-level play, and for the great detriment at low-level play.