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Okay. So, I don't like attacking other PC's--even when my character is compelled to do so. I have a real physical reaction just thinking about it, actually.
Having said that, I think the Baze/Zostra storyline between Vesh and Salome has taken a definite turn. And good or ill, I appreciate the opportunity to RP the resolution of this with Dreamer. I just hope no one gets permanently damaged b/c of Vesh...and that includes Vesh himself.
Okay. So, I don't like attacking other PC's--even when my character is compelled to do so. I have a real physical reaction just thinking about it, actually.
Having said that, I think the Baze/Zostra storyline between Vesh and Salome has taken a definite turn. And good or ill, I appreciate the opportunity to RP the resolution of this with Dreamer. I just hope no one gets permanently damaged b/c of Vesh...and that includes Vesh himself.
I know you rolled randomly to determine the recipient of Vesh's attack. But honestly, in story terms, it is most appropriate that it be Salome, your big zostra, that suffers in this encounter. It should quite clearly demonstrate a) the seriousness of the power of Lamashtu to mess with someone physically, mentally, and emotionally, and b) the depth of concern and friendship that's grown between the two of you based on how you'll both react to what happens in the end.
So, as a reader, I am most entertained by this turn of events. And it's cool that Zieke gets to play a role in trying to subdue the poor boy before he does irreparable damage to anyone. At least, I hope Zieke can subdue him. If I'm facing Vesh/Hulk as a result of this "milk" transformation (which doesn't do a body good, by the way!), then I'm a bit more concerned (and happy actually, that no one else has fallen victim to it...yet).
My two-cents,
--Neil
I've been reading late 70s Thor stories, and really have the urge to have Ehlissa speak Marvel Shakespearean.
"Behold! Yon creature is none other than Vesh! Cease, my comrade! Why dost thou attack fair Salome, thine blood-sister? Hast thou tasted of the waters of madness!?"
I've been reading late 70s Thor stories, and really have the urge to have Ehlissa speak Marvel Shakespearean.
"Behold! Yon creature is none other than Vesh! Cease, my comrade! Why dost thou attack fair Salome, thine blood-sister? Hast thou tasted of the waters of madness!?"
Ah yes! The classics! ;)
I have to agree with NSpice on this one. My first thought was also that it was appropriate for this character, (OK, my FIRST thought was, 'Whew, it's not me!' so this was my second thought!) :) I'm also interested in seeing how this plays out.
Just so everyone knows, I'm also not big on inter-party conflicts. I'll be happy to annoy you to death with Sli, but people who say "My character is Chaotic Annoying, he just does things to people sometimes" as an excuse to attack a party member gets my goat. But With my 'old home group', my diabolical DM has turned one character against the others more than once. And there was never an ounce of bitterness between us, because even if we didn't know what was going on at first, we knew SOMETHING was up! And then it became a fun 'oh Cr@p, how do we stop him/her without killing him/her?!?' It was usually a very fun, exciting session.
Hmmm,... this is starting to sound familiar,.... ;)
Okay. So, I don't like attacking other PC's--even when my character is compelled to do so.
I know this wasn't the intention when it became part of the story, but it occurred to me last night that this would be an interesting way for a busy DM to put a game on autopilot. "OK, group, in the tradition of Cops & Robbers and Cowboys & Indians, we're going to play Heroes & Monsters. Bob, Fred, you're the monsters today. I'll be back...later."
Having said that, I think the Baze/Zostra storyline between Vesh and Salome has taken a definite turn. And good or ill, I appreciate the opportunity to RP the resolution of this with Dreamer. I just hope no one gets permanently damaged b/c of Vesh...and that includes Vesh himself.
This will be interesting. Rags said his first reaction was 'Whew, it's not me!' My first reaction was, "What? It's not Slidell?" :)
Vesh and Salome's prior conversation takes on a deeper significance in light of the current situation -- almost like it foreshadowed this. They promised to watch out for each other--and now that promise of loyalty is being tested. (Great literature!) From my perspective, I think they have a deep enough connection that, assuming they both physically survive this, their relationship can survive too. (Just about anyone else, and this would be a serious betrayal, involuntary or not.)
So, does the moral of "Beauty and the Beast" apply here: that love can see beyond appearances and bring about healing and redemption? Tune in...
P.S. Last I checked, this discussion thread is number 3 for most posts. We've done a lot of discussion and analysis about the game in general, this campaign in particular, and issues and themes that come up. A great advantage of this is that we can separate character-character conflict from the cohesiveness of the player group. In short -- however this turns out with Vesh, we'll handle it fine.
This will be interesting. Rags said his first reaction was 'Whew, it's not me!' My first reaction was, "What? It's not Slidell?" :)
Heh, yeah, Slidell might have a tough time deciding between being relieved, or insulted, that he wasn't attacked first! ;P
Iiiiiii'm,... going with relieved. For now. ;)And 'DM Autopilot'? I never thought of that before. We may have stumbled upon one of the great gaming discoveries of our age! How to make the game easier on the DM! :D
Seriously, as you said Dreamer, this sort of situation is what makes good literature. Keep up the good work all!
Sorry I haven't been able to post much over the last few days; this summer's shaping up to be a very busy one for me.
Great scene! I can't wait to see how this little bit of drama plays out between Vesh and Salome.
Just so everyone knows, I'm also not big on inter-party conflicts. I'll be happy to annoy you to death with Sli, but people who say "My character is Chaotic Annoying, he just does things to people sometimes" as an excuse to attack a party member gets my goat.
I agree, this has to be one of the most annoying things that someone can do.
But With my 'old home group', my diabolical DM has turned one character against the others more than once. And there was never an ounce of bitterness between us, because even if we didn't know what was going on at first, we knew SOMETHING was up! And then it became a fun 'oh Cr@p, how do we stop him/her without killing him/her?!?' It was usually a very fun, exciting session.
I do that to my players all the time. They dread me saying "Ok, make a will save.". I think they fear enchanters more than any other kind of spellcasters.
Great job on this one JSL, truly a creepy encounter.
Great job on this one JSL, truly a creepy encounter.
I'll second that. Given that we presumably cleared most of the dangerous denizens left in the ruins, I was kind of wondering how involved the second foray would become. I never thought to consider the divine impact of the overlowing milk of Lamashtu. It made for a very believable and interesting encounter.
We basically had to fight among ourselves as our physical opponents for this one. And, luckily, the odds of that encounter favored us instead of the other way around. Otherwise, we could have become our own worst enemies in this adventure... ;-D
--Neil
Well think about it, we haven't seen hide nor hair of it yet, but we're already 'down' one party member. And that was luckily far less painful than it could have been. This is now a battle of attrition. We have to make it reveal itself before we 'lose' (either permanently or temporarily) too many party members.
I knew this wasn't going to be an easy 'go in and beat the small critter' fight, but this is now a 'scary-movie tension, I know it's coming and I'm still gonna jump and scream when it comes' scene!
This is so much fun! :D
Keep up the good work JSL & all!
See you on the inside!
Spotted the following license plate yesterday: ROL2HIT
Does this belong to anyone you know?
Spotted the following license plate yesterday: ROL2HIT
Does this belong to anyone you know?
No, But I think that is the best license plate/bumper sticker I have ever heard of! :) Lol!
Happy Father's Day to any dads out there...
I'll be watching over my 3- and 2-year olds today. But I'll check back on the game periodically.
--Neil
In honor of Fathers Day, I have to share this. My six-year-old brought home a book he made at school last week:
"When I Grow Up"
When I grow up, I want to be a...DAD.
A DAD is someone who...is kind to kids.
I want to be a DAD because...they are speshl and one even helpt me.
Happy Fathers Day to all the dads out there, and especially to the speshl one who is kind to my kids and even helpt them.
Well, as long as we're sharing the "cute kids on Father's Day" stories...my soon-to-be 4-year old informed me yesterday that she had something "special" for me. When I asked what, she told me it was a "secret"...and normally, she's not so good at keeping secrets. They usually bubble out of her within 15 minutes. But not this time...
So, this morning, after my wife had already left for work and both my girls woke up and starting running around the house in their pajamas...my youngest announced it was time for her to put on her favorite dress. So me and the 2-1/2 year old go upstairs to change her clothes. And the soon-to-be 4-year old followed us and demanded equal treatment. So, after I changed them both and combed their hair, I just happened to ask the older one about her "secret" again...
Her eyes got all wide and then she told me I had to close my eyes. She led back into her room. And then she rummaged around in the "hiding" place that she uses for virtually everything important to her...which is really just a spot behind her pillow on her bed. She then produces not one, but two, homemade Father's Day cards that she and her sister personally decorated with stamps, stickers, drawings, various colors, etc.
Obviously, my wife helped them somewhat with spelling out Happy Father's Day...but my oldest girl needed no coaching. She promptly wished me a Happy Father's Day on her own...which surprised me a bit. Both girls gave me hugs and kisses...just because. And it's been a grand day so far with just the three of us dancing around the house.
It's good to be a Dad,
--Neil
It's good to be a Dad
I couldn't agree more. Happy Father's Day.
BTW. Will check-in/post IC tomorrow.
Cute!
Mine are also adorable,... (when they want something!) ;)
Happy Father's Day!
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I sometimes find it hard to relate to my own PC. I mean, I have never been "beaten senseless and dumped somewhere," so how Vesh reacts is pure conjecture at this point. With no recollection of what has just happened (sorry, I guess that was a spoiler), I'm thinking that he's going to be pissed (and, in a moment, horrified and then VERY embarrassed).
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I've been looking over the 4E PH a little (haven't gotten my copy yet--won't until mid-July), and I have to say that I am both impressed and disappointed.
I won't go into a long explanation other that to say that I think the criticism that the books are unreadable is quite valid. That didn't seem like a big deal to me when I first read it on the boards, I mean a game is supposed to be played not read, right? Right. But, more and more, I find myself simply reading the gaming stuff I own, so readability is actually quite high on my list. Something I didn't realize until I actually sat down with the 4E PH and read the darn thing. Blah.
I think that 4E needs to be played in order to be judged. And, I'm excited to try it. With that in mind, I was wondering if anyone here would be interested in running through a 4E encounter or two at some point in the future--maybe as a "break" in between Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw? I'd be willing the *gulp* DM one encounter (but would ask that someone else with the books DM another so that I could play as well and get both POVs).
I'm just talking, like, the first couple encounters in the Keep on the Shadowfell or maybe something completely made up? I could get pre-gen characters out to folks by email (there are five in the module mentioned). Again, not as a campaign, but just as one or two combat encounters with maps, etc.
Any interest?
Santinj~ Sure, I'll try anything once, twice if I like it. (That's what tends to get me into trouble,...)
While what I have read about 4E has not thrilled me at all, (Unlike when 3.0 came out, I was REALLY looking forward to it!) I also confess that I am curious, and would like to try the game to see what they have done.
Count me in for a few encounters to test drive the rules. Whenever your up for it.
Full disclosure...
I occasionally freelance as a D20 RPG designer/writer. And I've tested the 4e rules...even ran a session of it for D&D Game Day at my FLGS. I took a quick poll afterward just to get the players' sense of how it compared to 3.5. I had 6 players, three of them ranging in age from 10 to 14 years old...and the three others were in their mid-20's to late-30's. So, an interesting mix that cut across generations.
What surprised me was that none of them were overly-enthusiastic about 4e after they'd experienced it. I didn't perceive their reaction stemmed from how I'd run the game, or the actual scenario we played. Instead, the responses (even from the younger players) was that the powers in 4e were just a lot to absorb, a little needlessly complex, and a bit too tactically-oriented...i.e., that the game wasn't as "free" to flow as previous editions, because it was more about lining up the perfect use of the perfect power that your character happened to have. And, although a fair deal of that was present in 3.5, it seems elevated in importance in 4e.
Generally, I'll confess that even as the DM, I wasn't as pleased with how the game ran. The at-will vs. once-per-encounter vs. once-per-day abilities were all kind of...meh...in how they played. A lot of abilities seemed like a no-brainer that they'd be used exclusively over any other option a character might have...just because they outstripped what the other abilities or powers could do. A cleric, for instance, has no need to ever use his weapon. Same for a wizard. Their at-will powers are far more preferrable. And that was true both for the PCs and the NPCs. As a result, it kind of came off feeling very cookie-cutter...-ish? Constrained? Boring.
Now having said that, I know plenty of you guys are open to exploring 4e...and I am too, or I wouldn't have playtested it...and I wouldn't be attempting to learn it so I can keep my freelancing options open. But I can definitely say that so far, my enjoyment and entertainment level is highest when playing 3.5...or the Pathfinder RPG version by Paizo. Even so, the story is the best part of gaming anyway...not the mechanics. So, I'll support whatever you guys want to try. And that includes a couple of encounters in 4e on the side. I'll be interested to hear your own reactions to it.
My two-cents,
--Neil
I would be very excited to try it out. I really like it to read, and am eager to play.
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Okay. Sounds like there is a least some interest.
Wizards now has the six pre-rolled characters, in actual character sheets, for download, here.
Thanks for the feedback, BTW, Neil. I was wondering how 4E all played--good stuff.
When I went to Eastern Oregon last week, I took my iPod and listened to the Wizards Podcast in the plane. They've basically recorded an eight hour session of Chris Perkins taking the guys from Penny Arcade through H1. They've broken it up into half-hour chunks and made them into podcasts. It's not as dumb as it sounds, and it is also exactly as dumb as it sounds. The guys from Penny Arcade are funny (especially the guy running the Wizard, Jim Darkmagic). The were several times when I was cracking up.
I digress. It sounds like they had fun, and so I'd like to see first-hand what the game play is like--even over PbP.
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I should be able to extract the map images from the Vassal DDM module to use with our Photobucket setup.
Cool. Let me know how that goes. I might actually be able to scan in the maps, as large as they are, at work. But it might be kind of a pain--especially if I've got to do it in pieces.
Also, I agree that the 4e PHB reads alot more like a game manual than like a story with rules. I really enjoy reading the Eberron books - even though I don't have much practical use for them - just because I find the writing style enjoyable and the fluff full of fun ideas.
I've really fallen in love with Eberron. At first, I was such a Greyhawk fanatic, I wouldn't even touch Eberron stuff. Then I picked up the Eberron Campaign hardcover at the library and was blown away. I've always wanted to play in an Eberron Campaign--Fantasy/Noir looks like it could work, and the Eberron stuff I've seen does it way better than Steven Brust does in his Vlad Taltos novels.
While I think the combat maneuvers in 4e are pretty cool, too, I just can't get much enjoyment out of reading about them. The magic items are particularly boring/disappointing in that regard.
Yep. Right there with you.
All that said, however, it is now much simpler to separate fluff from crunch in the rules, so I'm excited to start putting some backstory and description to all aspects of the game. I think there is a lot there to stir the imagination, especially in a format such as this where people can provide lots of description. The players have a lot more control over the battle and therefore more license to describe their PC's actions.
That's what I mean. It really, really, really feels like you've just got to sit down and play the darned thing. That's why I appreciate NSpicer's comments so much. I also think that a PbP game would be optimal for first time 4e players and DMs. For one, we wouldn't need minis with our current setup. Also, if I end up DMing an encounter, you can bet I'll be going back to the rule-books just to make sure I'm not gumming things up. You can do that in a PbP a whole lot more than at the game table. I mean, it's not like you are going to slow things down more in a PbP by looking up rules all the time.
Now, if Amazon would just ship the darned things...
I find it so inspiring to read - I'll look at a power and think "now, how will that look?" e.g. the paladin power whereby hitting an enemy heals an ally - I immediately thought of two fluff ways to describe it (not necessarily mutually exclusive):
As your blow strikes home, you also strike to the heart of your foe's life force; a stream of energy flows through you visible as a burning light. You direct the force into an injured friend who feels himself revitalised in a glow of power.
OR
As your blow strikes home, you raise your voice in exhultation, confident of victory. Your ally is inspired by your example to keep on going just that bit longer.
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Okay. Sounds like there is a least some interest.
Wizards now has the six pre-rolled characters, in actual character sheets, for download, here.
I guess they are in the same format as the adventure. I thought that the characters had been transfered into the actual character sheet.
One other 4e comment that I recall from an old-time gamer who didn't particularly like D&D in general, much less 4e, for a long time...but at least he's played and examined all of them...and 3.0/3.5 revitalized his interest in D&D. So he's biased...but still...
His comment was that 4e felt like a game that's "one-third World of Warcraft...one-third collectible card game...and one-third roleyplaying game." I found that comparison interesting, because I remember one of the comments back when D20 D&D 3.0 burst onto the scene that a lot of the naysayers felt like it was "one-part collectible card game...and one-part roleplaying game."
As for me, I can see the parallels in what those comments were trying to describe. D20 D&D 3.0/3.5 does have elements influenced by a "build the perfect deck" mentality that pervaded collectible card games. With new feats, classes, and prestige classes, each player was kind of guided into one-upping the last character build with each new splat book that came out. So there's some truth to the CCG comparison to 3.0/3.5. And I don't believe 4e jettisons that mentality, it just takes it in an additional direction...because, I do agree that you can find plenty of WoW influences on 4e...for better or worse, as it's really up to each player to decide.
Anyway, just some added commentary for you,
--Neil
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If you haven't gone to the game thread, catch up on that before reading my spoiler here. Once you've gone through the thing with Vesh and the Perception check (which I assume most of you will succeed) then return here--please--and read the following. I want feedback on my DC "math."
I actually had Vesh roll a Bluff check to help set the DC (as though it were an opposed roll like Bluff vs. Sense Motive normally is). With a +3 modifier for his high Charisma, Vesh rolled a 15.
I then looked at the SRD which said that if the target of the Bluff "wants to believe the bluffer" they get a -5 penalty on their Perception (Sense Motive) check. I figured that pretty much applied to everyone except Zieke. So then we've got DCs of 20 for the party and 15 for Zieke. That seemed a little high to me for a couple of reasons. First, the characters, while wanting to give Vesh the benefit of the doub--and really wanting him to be okay--just saw him attack Salome. Also, Vesh didn't really try to bluff until after Zieke addressed him--he then tried to cover for his inattentiveness. In all I made this a +3 circumstance bonus for the party, thus DCs 17 and 12. Viola.
I guess one way to look at this is that (since Vesh's Charisma and the circumstance bonus negate each other) Vesh is making a bluff check "flat-footed." Hmm.
What do you think? What would you have done differently were you the DM?
If you haven't gone to the game thread, catch up on that before reading my spoiler here. Once you've gone through the thing with Vesh and the Perception check (which I assume most of you will succeed) then return here--please--and read the following. I want feedback on my DC "math."
** spoiler omitted **
Sli missed the DC, by his usual half a mile, but the bird got it, so,...
I think you had it spot on Sant. I probably would have left it at the higher levels, but I'm a dork that way. Mostly because my groups dice always seem to roll whatever they need,... I'd be suspicious if it wasn't for,... naw, I'm suspicious, but I can't prove anything! ;P
I think that you have the right mentality for balancing things like that on the fly. I would say that in another lvl or two, you could have left it at the higher DC. But this was just the right difficulty of DC for this group, (especially since SOME of us have that @#$% 'inattentive' flaw!)
Good posts, people! My goodness. I need to go to bed! Will post IC tomorrow.
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I've been doing more 4E reading, and I'm narrowing my criticism. I think a lot of my previous readability complaint really amounts to a formatting issue.
Though it follows the same general progression of chapters that prior editions did, the 4E PHB doesn't have many of the significant mile-markers that the previous editions had. The biggest one, and the most disorienting for me, is the lack of a progression chart for each class. That's been pretty consistent from the beginning, and it is noticeably missing from each class description. Yes, I did find the generic progression chart at the beginning of the Class chapter which is useful, but what is the first thing you expect to see under the heading "Fighter" or "Wizard"? The progression chart. Once I got past that, and actually concentrated on reading and understanding some of the powers, I actually started to get a little excited.
The DMG also redeems some of the lack of readability that the PHB has. It's much more straight-foward in it's presentation and does a good job explaining some of the finer nuances of the game without belaboring them. One BIG plus that came out of my reading of the DMG is that I would feel comfortable throwing together a last-minute encounter with little-to-no preparation in 4E. There's not way I would (or really could) do that in 3.5.
I haven't moved on to the 4E MM (I only have so much time at Borders, after all), but I've been looking forward to getting at the monsters.
Really long 4e response for anyone who's interested...
It really, really, really feels like you've just got to sit down and play the darned thing.
I definitely ascribe to that theory when it comes to any game system. It's like trying new stuff at the dinner table. At least taste it before you decide never to eat it. Same with new iterations of D&D. Give it a try. Then form your own opinion. Don't just absorb what everyone else is saying and assume it's true. Each reaction to the game should be personalized.
I also think that a PbP game would be optimal for first time 4e players and DMs. For one, we wouldn't need minis with our current setup.
I'll be really interested to see how a 4e game would play via PbP. From my experience, it seems even more miniatures-based than 3.0/3.5. Ranges for weapons and powers are calculated in squares. Movement is still defined in squares. So, at the very least, a PbP would have to keep a grid in mind for tactical movement. But that's not all that different in how GMs can handwave it to simply say "yes, you're in range" or "yes, you can move that far and take another action"...so maybe it'll be no different? Should be interesting to find out.
I'll look at a power and think "now, how will that look?" e.g. the paladin power whereby hitting an enemy heals an ally...
Now that's an example of one of the things that didn't appeal to me about the new powers and abilities in 4e. Striking a creature on one side of the battlefield and having it heal an ally 30-feet away just stretches my "suspension of disbelief" in ways that the resulting story effect of the game is diminished for me. In the playtest I ran, the party cleric had the same ability and kept relying on that to stay in the fight...while simultaneously keeping the other party members alive by having his stirkes heal them. And it's not like the others were suffering for ways to heal themselves. Everybody's got healing surges they can do now...which can be used once per encounter to immediately bring back 25% of your hit points. Or, you can take a short rest (5 minutes) between encounters and spend as many healing surges as you want to restore yourself. Take an extended rest (8-hours of sleep) and you'll get all of your healing surges back. So there doesn't really seem to be a need for the healing strike power. And yet, it's there...so players will use it.
Having never played WOW, I can't answer to that. Although it does seem to be a common enough complaint that either it is true or alot of people are reading the same forums and blogs.
I've never played WoW either...though I have friends who have...and I've observed it being played, so I have a sense of what goes on such a game. It's also similar to other comnputer games I have played, like Neverwinter Nights, EverQuest, etc. So I can see the links between 4e's mindset and the approach designers take to manufacturing MMORPGs. I also know a few of the folks who work in Wizards' R&D...as well as some freelancers who have worked on 4e projects...and I routinely take the pulse of the industry by reading up on the blogs and what-not of designers who worked on 4e. Many of them have admitted they play WoW quite a lot. And a handful have definitely admitted the new edition borrowed an item or two from it...and that the new edition is tailored to attract the same consumer base that plays MMORPGs. So, all in all, it's definitely a fair comparison to make.
I think you can look at this a couple of ways though. 1) WotC BAD: There is a power creep with each new supplement and that is a classic hallmark of a collectible game; the new powers carry the game further from classic D&D. 2) WotC GOOD: They have finally developed some rules that let me play the type of character I couldn't play in 1e or 2e, but always wanted to.
I agree with you on those two definitions. Those who love what WotC does with the various splatbooks, prestige classes, variant classes, feats, etc. are happy as can be, because it lets them try all kinds of different combinations and acquire new/neat game effects they can now pull off with their character. Meanwhile, those who resent all of that are frequently challenged by the sheer plethora of material that gets published...some which isn't as balanced as the rest of the classes and options...so it generates power creep which they're constantly trying to beat back as their players request they be allowed to play those types of characters.
So it's really a balancing game. Tip it too far one way or the other and WotC winds up ticking off the other half of their consumer base. I believe with 4e, they've now tipped it one more notch towards those who appreciated all of the options and combos in 3.0/3.5...and, as a result, they're losing a few more customers who don't want to head any further in that direction. Meanwhile, WotC is counting on luring customers (MMORPG players) who already favor those kinds of options and powers into pen-and-paper RPGs...or at the very least, some virtualized version of it that can be played via the PC. It'll be interesting to see the amount of new blood gained vs. old blood lost as a result of this edition and this strategy.
I agree with you as well that there are some character archetypes that 3.0/3.5 didn't support as strongly. Personally, I think further development of 3.0/3.5 could have addressed that without some of the more radical moves made by 4e. Thus, I'm quite pleased with what Paizo has done with Pathfinder. It's early yet (they're still only in Alpha testing right now), but I'll be quite interested in seeing the final version of their revised ruleset for 3.5/3.75 or whatever it'll be called. I'm already enjoying many of the revisions they've made to wizards, sorcerers, clerics, bards, barbarians, and even the monk. There's even a lot of tweaks made to the core classes that makes them infinitely more interesting to play through a full level progression now. And, meanwhile, a lot of doors have been opened by PRPG that should allow further customization to try out character concepts 3.0/3.5 didn't address.
I am really happy with the following:
1) The DM's job is much easier
2) The minion rules are great
3) The rules emphasize teamwork
4) The classes are more balanced relative to each other
5) The emphasis on magic items is down from 3e
1) Maybe it was just being new to 4e, but I didn't find the DM's job to be any easier with 4e. It felt more complicated because of the variety of powers. But then it seemed like much of it was unnecessary, since I realized somewhere in the middle of all that complexity that one power (e.g., "Lance of Faith") stood out above all the others as the best one to use on a consistent basis. So, in some ways, 4e encourages a lot more metagaming from my perspective. And that concerns me.
2) I didn't get into the minion rules for the limited playtest I ran. So I can't speak to that one.
3) The rules might seem to emphasize teamwork, but in play...unless your players recognize that and engage in it...it makes the game less enjoyable. So it doesn't just emphasize it. It seems to make it necessary. Sometimes teamwork is a good thing. But other times, you want players to be able to go off on their own...or, as the DM, you'd like to split the party for story reasons...but if the new rules makes them less survivable separately, you're constrained in doing that for fear you'll inadvertantly crush the PCs. Or worse, that the players will get the idea that you're perpetuating an adversarial relationship with their PCs and then seek to gain further power-ups and escalate the power creep that much further just to compensate. So, I think there's some danger in this element of 4e. You can have teamwork in 3.0/3.5 quite easily...but it isn't forced...and I feel like that gives you more storytelling options as the DM.
4) Are perfectly balanced classes in relation to one another always a good thing? I'm not 100% sure. I like balance in most things, but there are some roles within a party of PCs that players frequently shun...e.g., no one wanted to play a cleric for a long time until Domains and customization of their abilities made them more attractive...while also making them a bit more powerful than the other classes. At one point in time wizards used to be really weak relative to every other class at low-level, but then climbed into powers that outstripped every other class at higher levels. I don't always feel like that's a bad thing. There's sort of a trade-off. Pay now or pay later. The 3.0/3.5 revision to D&D flattened that to some degree (actually a lot for wizards)...but not as far as 4e has now taken it. Everyone's on-par with one another. And, for some reason, I reminded of that line from the Incredibles about "when everyone is special, no one will be..." Maybe that's why the powers and their performance during play came off feeling a little boring for the players during the game I ran?
5) I agree on de-empahsizing magic items. That's much more preferrable to the necessity of just the right mix to keep up with the power creep in advanced CRs/ELs in 3.0/3.5. It makes higher-level play more interesting as a result. But, despite that, the "sweet spot" of gaming has always been the low- to mid-levels. Most gamers never go very far into high-level play before deciding to start over with new characters. So, it'll be interesting to see how much of a problem this really caused for 3.0/3.5 players in relation to how 4e is now handling it.
Shorter response for santinj who requested feedback...
What do you think? What would you have done differently were you the DM?
Personally, I might have granted Salome the same "suspicion" break that you gave to Zieke. Both of them were a little more directly involved with Vesh's attack, and Salome is naturally worried about his condition...and has more insight into the nature of the Milk of Lamashtu than any of us. She's also the healer who would be constantly looking for additional tell-tale signs of a problem with Vesh's behavior...even moreso she bears the wounds of his attack...and has a general mothering instinct about her over the rest of the party. So, she probably wasn't in a place where she "wanted to believe" Vesh's Bluff as strongly as some of the other party members.
Other than that, numerically and mechanically, I think you interpreted it fine.
Well, re: paladin hit foe, heal enemy power, this is exactly my point; I look at a rule or piece of flabour text and try to spin it in a way that I like for dramatic effect. 'Healing surges' after all reflect morale and luck as well as physical injury. Think less of is as a direct 'healing' effect and more as a way for a player to influence the direction that the story is going in. A lot of indy rpgs use similar mechanics.
More 4e discussion with Fabes...
Well, re: paladin hit foe, heal enemy power, this is exactly my point; I look at a rule or piece of flabour text and try to spin it in a way that I like for dramatic effect. 'Healing surges' after all reflect morale and luck as well as physical injury. Think less of is as a direct 'healing' effect and more as a way for a player to influence the direction that the story is going in. A lot of indy rpgs use similar mechanics.
I'm not sure that I follow your point, Fabes. I'm familiar with indy RPGs that allow various mechanics (e.g., luck, fate points, last resorts, player-defined conflict resolution, risk/reward mechanics, etc.) to allow players to influence the story by manipulating outcomes or encouraging certain actions. But, I don't perceive 4e's inclusion of Healing Strike to be an effort to purposefully make room for that. It's just another power to most people. A storytelling-oriented player (such as you or I) would certainly use that ability and try to spin its description in a way that worked, story-wise. We'd have to...
But I believe Healing Strike's inclusion in 4e and the description afforded to it by the designers doesn't encourage players to go that direction. I think it's just something you or I would bring to it as part of how we choose to play the game.
Personally, the two methods you described for explaining it wouldn't work for me. I like my heroes a little more grounded in the way the real-world operates...with the occasional flash of arcane or divine magic to explain stuff. So I'd have a hard time imagining a deity empowering his paladin or priest to siphon life energy from one being during the violent act of striking it and somehow bestowing it to an ally (worshipper or not) to heal them. That bit of "magic" just strikes a jarring note for me for the campaign settings that have defined my perception of RPGs.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
More 4E discussion
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I'm either genuinely curious or really, really bored, but I got a few D&D minis (the 4E starter and two random boosters). I've played D&D since the basic set, and I have never bought/collected/used minis, so my question comes out of complete ignorance.
I understand that for the collector, the whole randomized thing makes sense (just like with baseball cards and other collectibles). But what if you want to actually play D&D with them? Are there places to get non-randomized set of pre-painted kobolds, orcs, zombies, etc? What about individual pre-painted PC-type minis?
You can look at Paizo's store - they see individual models. Ebay and other auction and collector sites will probably have collections of the same model.
My brother used to tell a joke:
"How do you put a turkey under suspense? I'll tell you tomorrow."
Due to summer schedules and weekend activities, I am guessing that some of us will be posting sporadically over the next few weeks. At the same time, it seems like at least twice now, we've come to a point where there's a step to take (return to the cave, something behind the door or in the next room) and commentary, questions, or waiting for consensus are keeping us from proceeding.
Is there a way to keep things moving?
While I don't want to short-change the rp aspect (frankly, my prime motivator in playing), I feel like we tend to get hung up. For my part, I try to end my posts with an action statement or an ooc comment indicating what I want to do next -- or even what my character will do next, regardless of what "the group decides." Any suggestions?
I'm tired of being the proverbial turkey under suspence!
Thanks for the minis feedback. I really need to proceed with care--I really don't want to spend a ton of money on minis and get a bunch of bulettes that I'm never going to use.
Bulette: Plumber!
Woman at door: You're that landshark aren't you?
Bulette: Actually, ma'am, I'm a dolphin.
Dreamer: I feel your pain. I think some of the hiccup is in waiting for folks in different time zones. I think we need to allow for a reasonable amount of time--more when we know that person is away or whatever--and then just make the roll or call an action on their behalf. I wouldn't mind if someone did that on Vesh's behalf if I was holding up the works.
In all, though, I think that we're just going to post in fits-and-spurts. I anticipate that our post will pick up again mid-Summer through Fall and then drop off again during the Winter Holidays, just like last year.
Holy Cow! We'll have been at this for a year in October! That doesn't seem all that far away for some reason.
Anyway, as for me, I am pretty available most of the Summer until about August 20. Then I'll be very sporadic for a week (until the 27th). That's about it for me. I've got work-related travel coming up next week, but I'm finding that that doesn't really hold me up from posting--I find tons of hotspots, even in Pendleton.
The next two weeks are very busy for me - youth theatre production starts on 30th! Eeek!
I'm curuious about the system so, time permitting, I'd give 4e a try. I won't buy the books though, not until I know whether or not they're worth anything.
Is there a way to keep things moving?
While I don't want to short-change the rp aspect (frankly, my prime motivator in playing), I feel like we tend to get hung up. For my part, I try to end my posts with an action statement or an ooc comment indicating what I want to do next -- or even what my character will do next, regardless of what "the group decides." Any suggestions?
I have no small part in slowing the game down and for that I apologize. To be honest, I've considered dropping out of the game for this reason; I really enjoy playing with all of you but I spend a great deal of time away from home with friends and I just got a job. Most everyone else posts frequently and frequently posts very long posts. Even if I set aside an hour or so, it's often not enough to read half a page or an entire page of novels (not that I don't enjoy the novels you all write; it's great stuff), much less post a response to them. I don't think it's quite fair to all of you to slow the game down and disrupt the flow of the game. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
I have no small part in slowing the game down and for that I apologize. To be honest, I've considered dropping out of the game for this reason; I really enjoy playing with all of you but I spend a great deal of time away from home with friends and I just got a job. Most everyone else posts frequently and frequently posts very long posts. Even if I set aside an hour or so, it's often not enough to read half a page or an entire page of novels (not that I don't enjoy the novels you all write; it's great stuff), much less post a response to them. I don't think it's quite fair to all of you to slow the game down and disrupt the flow of the game. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
I think your posting level is fine, and I don't really think that you are slowing the game down. Like I said above, I think that it is reasonable to assume that we'll be able to post sometimes and not be able to post at others. Jobs and friends are much more important than virtual RPGs in my book, and I'd be sad to see you (and Mal) go. I'd like to see what direction you take this character, and I'd encourage you to stick with it.
I'm very busy at the moment creatively (blimey, that sounds pretentious) hence why Ehlissa is rather terse at the moment. All my PbPs have suffered the same fate. I think like all such previous occasions we can get through it - it's amazing what a journey it has been.
I read Dreamer's post and concern a little differently, I guess. I didn't get the sense she meant the frequency of posts, but rather the open-ended, passive nature of them. We all have a tendency to try and establish a group agreement around a lot of our actions...as opposed to simply ending with an action that will drive the next poster to follow with his own character's action...as opposed to discussing a possible action in order to get agreement from everyone else before attempting it.
In roleplaying games, particularly PbP games, it's the "leader" role that can help keep the action moving. Ultimately, there's usually one or two players who emerge as those who make the final decision based on everyone else's input. And most of the other players (and hence, their characters) accept that leadership and go with the flow. In my opinion, Dreamer's character (Salome) is the leader of the group. Dreamer has the posting frequency to keep up with that role in the party. And she's got the maturity and mothering instinct to keep everyone on track (both within and outside the game).
Thus, for me (and Zieke), I'm constantly finding myself in the advisory role and then giving one last deferral (to Salome) for confirmation of his action or a counter-proposal/decision after considering everyone's input. Occasionally, I've kind of pressed for the more "active" stance, but I fear that might 1) overstep my bounds as the "new" guy in the game, and 2) take Zieke "backwards" in terms of his relationship with the others in the party by making him more of a dictator again...which I'm trying to play down now, except for those situations that involve direct tactical/physical confrontations.
Anyway, I don't perceive a significant hold-up on posting from Arctaris or Fabes. And I too am more interested in seeing where all of these characters go in terms of the story. Mal's got a great opportunity to shine if he can "net" us a quasit. So I'm eager to help set him up, roleplay-wise, with opportunities to do so. And I think JSL threw some stuff out there with Ameiko as a possible NPC hook for him to play with...
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
I read Dreamer's post and concern a little differently, I guess. I didn't get the sense she meant the frequency of posts, but rather the open-ended, passive nature of them. We all have a tendency to try and establish a group agreement around a lot of our actions...as opposed to simply ending with an action that will drive the next poster to follow with his own character's action...as opposed to discussing a possible action in order to get agreement from everyone else before attempting it.
Thanks for saying that better than I could.
There's an improvisational aspect to what we do, and many of the same "rules" apply, I think. You theater guys know about this stuff better than I do, but there seem to be three major rules for improv: no no's (i.e., "don't cut off the other guy's idea; just go with it"); support/give to your fellow actors (so they can go with it too); and keep the action moving (just "go").
In roleplaying games, particularly PbP games, it's the "leader" role that can help keep the action moving. Ultimately, there's usually one or two players who emerge as those who make the final decision based on everyone else's input. And most of the other players (and hence, their characters) accept that leadership and go with the flow. In my opinion, Dreamer's character (Salome) is the leader of the group. Dreamer has the posting frequency to keep up with that role in the party. And she's got the maturity and mothering instinct to keep everyone on track (both within and outside the game).
I'm willing to take on the leader role IC, but have been reluctant to do so up to this point because 1) Salome is the new guy to Sandpoint (chronologically and culturally "outside"); 2) until NSpicer came along, I was the new guy to the game (and still, to RPGing) and 3) I have a personal relationship with the DM and don't want to be seen as colluding with him.
But if all of you feel like I have played fairly up to this point and are OK with Salome taking on the leadership role (especially when we get "stuck"), I'd be happy to.
This is a concern I've had for a while now. I'd love to continue playing with all of you; I just don't want to slow the game down too much with my RL concerns, which aren't your own. I'm happy to continue playing as long as it isn't an issue.
A leader would help keep things moving when descions need to be made and one or more of us can't post. From both and in-game and out of game perspective, I/Mal would be fine with Salome as leader.