...it sounds unanimous. Welcome aboard, Neil!
Wow. Fantastic. Thanks, everyone. Really. I have a thing for quality games and long-term storytelling. This one seems all that and more to me...and that's a direct result of both JSL's DMing style and the quality players involved in the game. Or at least, that's my opinion as an outside observer...
In addition to the fact that he's already familiar with our game and style of play, reading NSpicer's recent posts I've noticed some things that I believe will make him a good addition to our group:
- Consistent presence and regular postings
- Thoughtful discussion of rules
- Adaptability and problem-solving skills
- And he's a GOOD SPELLER! (That scores bonus points with me.)
Wow again. Now I'm going to have to live up to all of that... :-)
That leaves an opening for a character who can get milage out of Power Attack, Cleave, etc. We already have a pretty high group AC, so a blocker/meat-shield role isn't as essential. I think that leaves some flexibility.
I'm not 100% sure I understand all the options you've made available from a character creation standpoint. It looks like you've incorporated some of the PRPG skills, but not all of them. And clearly, some of the classes (e.g., Knight, Spellthief, and Swashbuckler) stem from other sourcebooks than those I have available in my library.
Usually, I tend to stay fairly basic anyway. About the furtherest I've branched from the core books is Unearthed Arcana and the new Pathfinder Alpha rules. Even with that, I'm sure I can come up with something compatible. Here's the criteria I'll use for defining a new PC for the party:
Must-Haves:
- melee-oriented (i.e., decent AC, BAB, combat feats, etc.)
- physical skill focus (i.e., Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble, etc.)
- human (mostly because I'd like to see the group stay racially consistent and it would feel a little odd to throw in a token elf, half-elf, dwarf, etc.)
Should Avoid:
- ranged combatant (i.e., no major focus on bows, but thrown weapons are more likely)
- social skill focus (i.e., no Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc...but Intimidate could certainly factor in)
- no magical expertise (mostly because you guys seem to have all of that covered already)
Basically, I want to make sure that the final result is someone who complements the group and doesn't duplicate too many of the areas that are really someone else's niche anyway. After that, the fun part is all in the background and personality. With that in mind, here's one spoilered idea I've got (for JSL's eyes only). Let me know if this direction is acceptable and I'll start working out the background.
Zieke Halveran
Male human fighter 2 / monk 1
LN Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Listen +0, Spot +0
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
(+2 Dex, mwk chain shirt, heavy steel shield)
hp 26 (1d10+2 plus 1d8+2)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +7 (1d8+2/19-20) or unarmed strike +4 (1d6+2)
Ranged dagger +4 (1d4+2/19-20) or throwing axe +4 (1d6+2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; Grp +4
Feats City-Born (Korvosa), Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills Climb +4 (5 ranks, +2 Str, -3 AP), Hide +1 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 AP), Intimidate +7 (5 ranks, +2 feat), Jump +4 (5 ranks, +2 Str, -3 AP), Move Silently +1 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 AP), Swim -2 (2 ranks, +2 Str, -6 AP), Tumble +3 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, +2 synergy, -3 AP)
Languages Common (Chelaxian), Varisian
Combat Gear mwk longsword, mwk chain shirt, heavy steel shield; Other Gear backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, rations (6), rope 50', traveler's outfit, waterskin, whetstone.
BACKGROUND (preliminary)
Zieke served as a guardsman in Korvosa until he insulted a nobleman who wrecked his career. He joined one of the city's fighting schools soon afterward, occasionally hiring out as a sell-sword. While there, he also began studying the monastic traditions of Tian Xia from a teacher who made the city home. He hoped to complete the full training, but trouble soon followed him in the form of the nobleman's eldest son.
The boy and several of his friends ambushed Zieke when he escorted a visiting merchant into the Heights. Zieke defended himself, but accidentally caused the boy's death while grappling with him. Before the nobles could have him arrested for murder, he fled the city...taking with him only those possessions he kept at the fighting school. These included several scrolls detailing the martial arts he studied with his master. Zieke intended to continue learning them on his own, leaving behind a simple note for his master before fleeing to Magnimar.
But the scrolls have proved difficult to master without guidance. Zieke has found himself relying more on his sword than his fist. And even that hasn't earned him much coin. He had almost given up hope until Sheriff Belor Hemlock arrived from Sandpoint with news of a goblin attack. Although Magnimarian officials seemed reluctant to send additional guardsmen to the north, Zieke volunteered, hoping to find purpose and a better life for himself.
NOTES
I don't plan on taking Zieke any further than one more level in Monk. After that, he'll go back to straight Fighter...and become an ex-Monk who can no longer advance in that class because of he lost focus. Mechanically, I'll probably keep him in light armor (nothing more than a chain shirt) to ensure he doesn't lose all of his monk abilities. But, clearly, flurry of blows won't be available to him unless he's out of his armor. Otherwise, everything else should still work out, I think. And from a fighting perspective, he'll continue to pursue a mix of Combat Expertise finesse-oriented feats (such as Improved Trip) and Power Attack feats (like Improved Sunder, Bull Rush, or Overrun). If you've got any feedback for me on this character concept...let me know. I'm willing tweak it in any direction or start over from scratch, if necessary.
--Neil
...it sounds unanimous. Welcome aboard, Neil!
Wow. Fantastic. Thanks, everyone. Really. I have a thing for quality games and long-term storytelling. This one seems all that and more to me...and that's a direct result of both JSL's DMing style and the quality players involved in the game. Or at least, that's my opinion as an outside observer...
In addition to the fact that he's already familiar with our game and style of play, reading NSpicer's recent posts I've noticed some things that I believe will make him a good addition to our group:
- Consistent presence and regular postings
- Thoughtful discussion of rules
- Adaptability and problem-solving skills
- And he's a GOOD SPELLER! (That scores bonus points with me.)
Wow again. Now I'm going to have to live up to all of that... :-)
That leaves an opening for a character who can get milage out of Power Attack, Cleave, etc. We already have a pretty high group AC, so a blocker/meat-shield role isn't as essential. I think that leaves some flexibility.
I'm not 100% sure I understand all the options you've made available from a character creation standpoint. It looks like you've incorporated some of the PRPG skills, but not all of them. And clearly, some of the classes (e.g., Knight, Spellthief, and Swashbuckler) stem from other sourcebooks than those I have available in my library.
Usually, I tend to stay fairly basic anyway. About the furtherest I've branched from the core books is Unearthed Arcana and the new Pathfinder Alpha rules. Even with that, I'm sure I can come up with something compatible. Here's the criteria I'll use for defining a new PC for the party:
Must-Haves:
- melee-oriented (i.e., decent AC, BAB, combat feats, etc.)
- physical skill focus (i.e., Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble, etc.)
- human (mostly because I'd like to see the group stay racially consistent and it would feel a little odd to throw in a token elf, half-elf, dwarf, etc.)
Should Avoid:
- ranged combatant (i.e., no major focus on bows, but thrown weapons are more likely)
- social skill focus (i.e., no Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc...but Intimidate could certainly factor in)
- no magical expertise (mostly because you guys seem to have all of that covered already)
Basically, I want to make sure that the final result is someone who complements the group and doesn't duplicate too many of the areas that are really someone else's niche anyway. After that, the fun part is all in the background and personality. With that in mind, here's one spoilered idea I've got (for JSL's eyes only). Let me know if this direction is acceptable and I'll start working out the background.
Zieke Halveran
Male human fighter 2 / monk 1
LN Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Listen +0, Spot +0
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
(+2 Dex, mwk chain shirt, heavy steel shield)
hp 26 (1d10+2 plus 1d8+2)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee mwk longsword +6 (1d8+2/19-20) or unarmed strike +4 (1d6+2)
Ranged dagger +4 (1d4+2/19-20) or throwing axe +4 (1d6+2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; Grp +4
Feats City-Born (Korvosa), Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills Climb +4 (5 ranks, +2 Str, -3 AP), Hide +1 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 AP), Intimidate +7 (5 ranks, +2 feat), Jump +4 (5 ranks, +2 Str, -3 AP), Move Silently +1 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 AP), Swim -2 (2 ranks, +2 Str, -6 AP), Tumble +3 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, +2 synergy, -3 AP)
Languages Common (Chelaxian), Varisian
Combat Gear mwk longsword, mwk chain shirt, heavy steel shield; Other Gear backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, rations (6), rope 50', traveler's outfit, waterskin, whetstone.
BACKGROUND (preliminary)
Zieke served as a guardsman in Korvosa until he insulted a nobleman who wrecked his career. He joined one of the city's fighting schools soon afterward, occasionally hiring out as a sell-sword. While there, he also began studying the monastic traditions of Tian Xia from a teacher who made the city home. He hoped to complete the full training, but trouble soon followed him in the form of the nobleman's eldest son.
The boy and several of his friends ambushed Zieke when he escorted a visiting merchant into the Heights. Zieke defended himself, but accidentally caused the boy's death while grappling with him. Before the nobles could have him arrested for murder, he fled the city...taking with him only those possessions he kept at the fighting school. These included several scrolls detailing the martial arts he studied with his master. Zieke intended to continue learning them on his own, leaving behind a simple note for his master before fleeing to Magnimar.
But the scrolls have proved difficult to master without guidance. Zieke has found himself relying more on his sword than his fist. And even that hasn't earned him much coin. He had almost given up hope until Sheriff Belor Hemlock arrived from Sandpoint with news of a goblin attack. Although Magnimarian officials seemed reluctant to send additional guardsmen to the north, Zieke volunteered, hoping to find purpose and a better life for himself.
NOTES
I don't plan on taking Zieke any further than one more level in Monk. After that, he'll go back to straight Fighter...and become an ex-Monk who can no longer advance in that class because of he lost focus. Mechanically, I'll probably keep him in light armor (nothing more than a chain shirt) to ensure he doesn't lose all of his monk abilities. But, clearly, flurry of blows won't be available to him unless he's out of his armor. Otherwise, everything else should still work out, I think. And from a fighting perspective, he'll continue to pursue a mix of Combat Expertise finesse-oriented feats (such as Improved Trip) and Power Attack feats (like Improved Sunder, Bull Rush, or Overrun). If you've got any feedback for me on this character concept...let me know. I'm willing tweak it in any direction or start over from scratch, if necessary.
--Neil
We used 32 point-buy and rolled Hide and Move Silently into Stealth and Listen and Spot into Perception. A number of the characters have flaws from UA(and I try to punish them for it as much as I can get away with...). Max starting hp and roll at successive levels (but never take lower than half the max - so it makes sense to roll as you can't do worse than average).
I picked up on that, but hesitated to incorporate it until I heard the official explanation. Rolling those skills into Stealth and Perception would actually help free up some skill points for me, if I go the route I described. I assume you'd prefer a reference to Invisible Castle for rolling hit points at successive levels...and round up to half if I get lower than that. I noticed a few of the PCs didn't select any flaws...and, after looking over them in UA, I'm inclined to pass as well. As the book describes, they're meant to hurt more than a feat helps. And, since many of the flaws run contrary to how imagine this particular character, I'm willing to forego the extra feats and avoid the flaws, if possible.
Max starting wealth. Though for a third level character, it will make more sense to start with equipment roughly comparable to the rest of the party (e.g., mwk weapon and armor, a few potions or minor expendable items and one daily minor misc. item or effect). I suggest tracking down and reading the posts in this thread where we discussed creating magic items. It will give your character a chance to customize his weapons and armor (though not until later levels) or buy additional feats/skills. Though I will enforce a maximum of one additonal feat through this because the others did not have a chance to take advantage at 1st and 2nd levels.
I'll need a while to comprehend the crafting rules. It got a little complicated in the reading. :-)
If you'd rather spec out something for me in advance, I wouldn't mind hearing your ideas, though...
While martial skills are certainly appreciated, the party does have a few other skill deficiencies. For example, no one is trained in Survival and a few of the Perception modifiers are pretty low.
Hmmmm...I can certainly enhance things from the Perception perspective...by just swapping out a few things. Survival would be trickier. However, I have a proposal for you. Would you be willing to let me tap the Pathfinder Alpha rules? Basically, a human is allowed to select any one skill and make it a class skill. I'd be willing to take Survival and drop one of the other skills in favor of that. Maybe pick up Track as a feat, too...although Track isn't necessary in Pathfinder Alpha anymore...
For Neil:
I like the background. Any chance the noble could have been Aldern Foxglove? He lived in Korvosa until a couple of years ago. You would have to change the part with the son to an associate, maybe.
Sure. We can slide Aldern in as the offended noble. Ought to make things...interesting. :-)
I can tweak the background as necessary to make it fit.
The monk level is good, but we will have to work out some sensible grapple rules. How far do you want to take that aspect of the class? (i.e., do you plan to actively use it and initiate grapples on a regular basis? would you grapple instead of attacking? would you expect to take someone out with a grapple?)
I don't really have a feel for how often grapple might come up. It's a lot easier to adjudicate under Pathfinder Alpha with the CMB bonus...but I'm not sure how effective that would be to incorporate in this case. I wouldn't plan on using grapple on a regular basis. It's there primarily to offset creatures that might have Improved Grab and making sure he'd stand a reasonable chance of escaping or resisting it. I would like to have opportunities to showcase the range of Zieke's abilities though...by cycling through Improved Disarm attempts, increasing his damage via Power Attack, increasing his AC via Combat Expertise, using Cleave occasionally...and even Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike when the situation warrants it. I'm not sure I'm helping answer your question though. What do you think?
Would you consider Ranger levels (e.g., ex Sable Company trainee)...
I would consider it, I suppose. But I'm not really keen on having a Ranger who gains an animal companion (because it's a hassle to keep up with) or spells (because it runs kind of contrary to what I'd want to play). Let me think on it a bit more and see what I can come up with. I'm sure there's a combination that can ramp up the wilderness skills without necessarily going Ranger.
--Neil
I'm not 100% sure I understand all the options you've made available from a character creation standpoint. It looks like you've incorporated some of the PRPG skills, but not all of them.We used 32 point-buy and rolled Hide and Move Silently into Stealth and Listen and Spot into Perception. A number of the characters have flaws from UA(and I try to punish them for it as much as I can get away with...). Max starting hp and roll at successive levels (but never take lower than half the max - so it makes sense to roll as you can't do worse than average).
Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?
Maybe so!
Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?
No. It's part of Deception now, rolled up from Bluff and Sense Motive.
--Neil
Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?No. It's part of Deception now, rolled up from Bluff and Sense Motive.
--Neil
Well, not sure if Arctaris is referring to our House Rules or Pathfinder...
Additional Character Ideas (for JSL only):
With the suggestion to incorporate skills like Perception, Survival, and Sense Motive into the new PC...I reviewed a couple of other options that I'd like to run past you. They might require inventing a different background, though the reason for coming to Sandpoint (i.e., volunteering to aid Sheriff Hemlock) would likely remain the same.
Idea #1:
Wilderness Rogue - In Unearthed Arcana, there's a Rogue-variant that swaps out some of his urban-based social skills for wilderness/survival skills. The idea with this character concept is that I'd trade out going into Monk levels (though I could simply delay it for down the road) to pick up a few levels of Rogue so I can invest more heavily in skills like Perception, Survival, Sense Motive, etc. But I'd stay away from the heavy Rogue skills like Disable Device, Open Lock, etc. The general idea here is that Zieke would have gotten into trouble in Korvosa and then fled to the wilderness to avoid arrest, learning to survive off the land and traveling more widely as a result. I'm not really looking to make him a traditional Rogue. This is just a means to acquire the type of skills you feel the party needs in a believable way.
The only other aspect of this character concept I'd like to tweak a bit involves using another option out of Unearthed Arcana. Basically, I'd like to avoid having Zieke take sneak attack as a class ability...because I'm envisioning him as more of a well-trained armsman than an ambusher. Unearthed Arcana lets Rogues change out sneak attacks for access to Fighter feats. So, if Zieke could go that route, it would keep him on the path of continuously developing his combat capabilities (via more feats) even though he steps outside of the Fighter class to pick up levels in Wilderness Rogue. I could alternate as needed after that, essentially keeping the feat progression of a Fighter intact even as he advances.
Idea #2:
Aristocrat - This may sound a little unusual, but the NPC class for Aristocrat includes Survival, Perception, and Sense Motive as built-in class-skills. So, I could start Zieke out as a nobleman by picking up Aristocrat for a couple of levels before becoming a full-fledged Fighter. The Aristocrat is a little weaker in comparison to normal PC classes, of course. If you'd be willing maybe to let him pick up an extra feat (something like Negotiator or Exotic Weapon Proficiency - bastard sword, maybe?)...that might help balance him out a little better. The end result would change Zieke's background (but might work even better with that connection to Aldern Foxglove) and he'd probably pick up more social skills than I otherwise expected to develop for him. But I'm okay with that, if you think this concept works better.
Idea #3:
Barbarian - Another Unearthed Arcana variant allows a barbarian to swap out his rage abilities for the Ranger's combat abilities. The option described in the book focuses just on the archery skills (i.e., Rapid Shot, Many-Shot, etc.). But, presumably, a variation could be done using the melee feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave) or two-weapon feats (Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, etc.). I'd be open to one of those ideas. A Barbarian should have the Perception and Survival skills sewn up fairly well. Of course, this route would radically change Zieke's background. I'd probably make him Shoanti, of course...and come up with a different reason for coming to Sandpoint and getting involved in everything. Maybe as a distant relative of Sheriff Hemlock...since he's Shoanti as well...who came to aid his cousin in a time of need...
Let me know which of those ideas work best for you. I'm still looking to avoid going Ranger, because I'm not as interested in keeping up with an animal companion or gaining spells. I'm already playing spellcasters in my other PbP games (one of which has a familiar to manage, too), and I was hoping to go a different direction with this character just for variety. Regardless, I'll work with you to play what you think is best. If you forsee that the party will need a Ranger (because of favored enemy, tracking, animal companion, etc.), I'll still play one to support you.
--Neil
Welcome Aboard NSpicer!
(Unanimous-ness is good!)
About the Flaws/feats-As far as Sli is concerned, the flaws I took to get the extra feats have DEFINITELY been more of a hinderance than they've helped! Which means they've done their job I suspect. :P
I'm not worried about you making sure that you don't overlap our skill-sets so much as making sure that you have fun with your character! I think that has been the single biggest contributor to the success of this game!
I wouldn't even be adverse to the addition of another race. That would provide our humano-centric group an opportunity for even more inter-party rp'ing.
See you inside our world! :D
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I have some heads-up-related material re: Vesh and his future (feat) plans.
I have always regarded Vesh's flaws as a product of his youth and naivete. Though it's going to cost Vesh (in terms of time, craftpoints, and money), I'd like to re-train him out of those flaws. I don't technically know how re-training works (in terms of the actual rules for feats...were they in UA?), but I was wondering if Vesh could spend the craftpoints/gold necessary for one feat to erase one flaw.
IG, I don't think this will be a product of literal training, as much as a reflection of the "quickened" maturity that he is undergoing in Sandpoint. What I mean is, I don't think Vesh will go to Father Zantus and say, "Train me to be attentive, please." Rather, he will go to him seeking guidance about the near-death (near-Desna) experience he had. The good Father may take Vesh under his wing, guiding Vesh through meditation or some such with the result being Vesh's growth and development and the eventual erasing of flaws.
Rather than becoming cocky, I think the near-death experience will leave him quieter and more reserved. As a result, I see him developing inner resolve (erasing the weak-willed flaw) and becoming more present in his surroundings (erasing the inattentive flaw). What do you think?
Also, it seems more realistic that both flaws would reduce gradually rather than having one go away, and then another. So, I'm envisioning a mechanic in which Vesh spends the cp/gp for one feat and both flaws' penalties get halved until he spends the cp/gp for the other half. Does that seem reasonable?
For others, thoughts/reflections/feedback?
Yes, it is. I'd forgotten about that as it just doesn't come up much. But come to think of it, I have used it with the Mayor a couple of times.
Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?
Interesting. I'll note that, as well...since it would have impact on how I wind up spending skill points. I'd planned on buying into both Perception and Sense Motive, but with it already included, that's points I can now spend elsewhere.
I'm willing to go with any of the three options you have described.
Now that I've been examining other concepts like the Wilderness Rogue, I'm contemplating a blended approach. Let me know what you think of this idea: Fighter-turned-Wilderness-Rogue-turned-Monk. Here's the setup:
Zieke started life as an up-and-coming warrior, just like my previous background mentioned. He was training at one of Korvosa's fighting schools in the hopes of eventually joining the Korvosan Guard or the Sable Company. This is what exposed him to some of the early teachings of a master from Tian Xia...but not enough to put him down the path of a Monk yet.
While he continued training at the school, Zieke hired himself out as a mercenary/bodyguard/sellsword, frequently escorting nobles on hunting trips into the forest...as well as visiting merchants up to the Heights to meet with the nobility. This is how he came into contention with Aldern Foxglove and his associate. He accidentally killed a man and chose to flee before being arrested. Before leaving, he grabbed as many things as he could from his possessions at the fighting school...including a series of scrolls containing the teachings that would one day lead him to develop a greater sense of the martial arts. I'm considering making these collected scrolls into one of the magic items (probably the 1/day, 1st level spell effect...magic weapon, maybe?).
From that point, Zieke had to evade those searching for him. So he journeyed deeper into the wilderness which he already knew fairly well from his hunting trips. He further learned how to live off the land and survive from some rather cut-throat bandits in similar shape...though he declined to join their band. He then traveled north of Korvosa and eventually west to Magnimar. This is where he hoped to reclaim his life as a true warrior and develop his martial combat training. Mostly through self-study and the help of the scrolls, he managed to learn the basics of being a Monk. So he's only just started down that road, but he believes many of those skills have given him an advantage over the typical warrior. He's very confident in his prowess, hardened by his experiences in the wilderness, and determined to make something out of the early shambles of his life.
Unfortunately, few citizens and merchants out of Magnimar have seen fit to hire an independent, unaffiliated mercenary who always seems to attract trouble. So, Zieke has been pondering a return to the wilderness, because it's much cheaper (and comfortable) to live there than in the confines of the city's underbelly. He'd almost given up hope until Sheriff Hemlock arrived in town seeking assistance against the goblin raiders near Sandpoint. Since that seemed like his best chance, he agreed to help.
If you opt for the extra class skill, I'll open that option to the rest of the group. I don't think many of them are dabbling cross-class as it is, so it probably won't be a big deal to make the change.
Yes, I'd need to opt for the extra class skill so I can pick up decent ranks in Survival to explain Zieke's affinity for the woodlands as a 1st level Fighter. After that, his level as a Wilderness Rogue will let him expand on it. And even as he continues taking levels in any other class after that, Survival will always be a class skill for him.
As for equipment, start with mwk primary weapon, armor and shield; 2 potions of clw; any one of the following: magic item with 1/day use of first level spell (CL 1), 3x expendable items based on first level spell (e.g., potions, oils, etc), item granting a skill bonus (up to +2), or something similar. That should put you on par with the rest of the group.
So...I assume that's a mwk primary weapon, mwk armor, and mwk shield? Or did you mean mwk primary weapon and mundane armor and shield? As for the rest, I'll think on it further tonight when I draft up everything for your review.
I will read the Pathfinder combat maneuver rules tonight and expect we will pretty much adopt them as is.
They complicate a few things more than just how grappling and such is handled. To adopt them fully, you'll have to go with some rewordings of various feats and spells (e.g., black tentacles, etc.), too. But I'm not pressing for that. I'm perfectly fine with sticking to the regular rules for such combat maneuvers. You don't have to complicate things just to weave Zieke into the game.
In the meantime, I appreciate all the help and feedback so far. I'm excited to give this character concept a spin. Let me know if you want me to tweak anything further. And hopefully, I'll have the character's stats put together tonight.
--Neil
For JSL:
mwk. armor and shield, too.
Check.
I'm fine with everything. Can't wait to see the character.
Here's a link to all his statistics and background information. I chose three potions, a magic cloak that grants +2 Stealth, and the scrolls of Tian Xia which let him invoke a magic weapon effect 1/day on either his sword or fists. And here's Zieke's rolled hit points for 2nd and 3rd level...
Zieke's hit points for levels as Rogue and Monk... (1d6, 1d8=[5], [6])
Any thoughts on your grand entrance? I'm happy to have you in during this rest period.
I've left his arrival in Sandpoint kind of open-ended. But, he's essentially under Sheriff Hemlock's command...though he's not an actual soldier...just more like a "consultant" on retainer. A mercenary sellsword, basically. I'm not sure if the Sheriff has returned from Magnimar yet in the game, but Zieke could have been invited to Sandpoint and followed behind, if necessary.
Once arriving, perhaps the Sheriff's first assignment is to go find the "local heroes" investigating the tunnels under the Glassworks...in which case, Zieke would presumably stumble upon them on his own? If you've got any other ideas, I'm open to them...just let me know.
--Neil
Well, not sure if Arctaris is referring to our House Rules or Pathfinder...Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?No. It's part of Deception now, rolled up from Bluff and Sense Motive.
--Neil
I was referring to our house rules.
I was referring to our house rules.Well, not sure if Arctaris is referring to our House Rules or Pathfinder...Isn't Sense Motive rolled up into Perception too?No. It's part of Deception now, rolled up from Bluff and Sense Motive.
--Neil
I think it makes more sense for Sense Motive to be rolled up into Perception anyway. All three of them (Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive) are based on Wisdom and should reflect the degree of "awareness" that a hero would have...both in the physical world and the world of social interaction.
But, I think you can see that the designers were more worried about lumping too many skills together into one. And, the synergy bonuses often dictated where two skills could be combined. Since Bluff and Sense Motive are the yin-and-yang of lying and sensing a lie...and they both contributed synergy bonuses to Diplomacy (which they wanted to keep with Gather Information), I think that's the primary reason they grouped them into Deception.
Still...a case could be made to include Sense Motive with Perception, too. It's a fine line, but because of the Wisdom connection between all three, I think it makes better sense than putting it with Bluff, which is Charisma-based.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
JSL:
I don't think the Sheriff is back yet, but suppose Zeike accompanied him to Magnimar (thus explaining why the heroes have not yet met him) and came back with the lead group a couple of hours ahead of the main party. Upon arrival, he checked in with the guard on duty - possibly Corporal Marsk or even Corran (not Horatio, though he is off somewhere) - and took it on his own initiative to check out the Glassworks situation. Feel free to enter at any time.
Sounds fine to me. Does that means Zieke wandered up to Sandpoint and was actually present for the goblin attack during the Swallowtail Festival? And then, he accompanied the Sheriff down to Magnimar to request additional troops? I can tweak his background to reflect that. You'd just need to keep feeding me information about what Zieke would know about the town and the Sheriff's plans.
Zeike knows that the Sheriff's request for troops was met with mixed results in Magnimar. He is returning with 20 green soldiers, some barely old enough to start shaving. Consequentially, the Sheriff is frustrated with bureaucratic impediments and has been talking about taking matters into his own hands for decisive action against the goblin raiders and whatever powers are behind them. Zeike has no doubt heard of our heroes through Hemlock.
Although Sheriff Hemlock respects the heroes for their prowess and is sincere in his thanks for their help in defending the city, he resents the fact that the mayor seems to think the town is safer with the heroes there and him off in Magnimar.
So, perhaps the Sheriff sent Zieke back with however many soldiers he had already gathered and then stayed behind to request more. He might also have sent Zieke to make sure one of his own "men" kept an eye on things, because he doesn't completely want the town's safety in the hands of the local heroes? With that as his "mission," it would be even more important for Zieke to find out what the heroes have been up to in their absence...and he'd be extra alarmed to know there's a serious threat below the Glassworks that they're investigating. Hence, he'd go looking for them after turning over the new recruits to the Corporal...
--Neil
Yaay! I'm in!
--Neil
Again, welcome to the game, Neil.
It will be fun to see how this first encounter plays out, with a group of exhausted out-of-town adventurers and a citizen guardsman. Especially given Salome's natural distrust of people, and certain party members' less-than-positive encounters with the local law enforcement community!
Also, in reviewing the day's posts, I'm glad you're already familiar with our story and playing style; it seems we forgot to warn you of the lively and elaborate dream-lives of our characters!
(I don't know if other campaigns' characters dream, but ours seem to have a penchant for exploring the unconscious, having flashbacks, and having various religious or spiritual experiences when asleep.)
Gotta love Hamlet!
And in that sleep of death what dreams may come must give us pause...
All our characters dream about death basically :D
All our characters dream about death basically :D
Sounds...lovely. :-)
I may play Zieke as one of the least troubled (sleep-wise) individuals in the party...just to be different. Instead, it's probably his waking hours and everyday thoughts that'll be concerned about his mortality.
--Neil
Okay, I finally read through the Pathfinder combat maneuver section and found it to be more complicated than I had imagined it was.... Here is my proposal:...
Give me some time to think on these and how they'll wind up affecting Zieke's development from a mechanical standpoint and I'll try to give you some feedback. Opting to use the CMB opens up a large can of worms, since it reinterprets a lot of spells (e.g. entangle, etc.) as well as feats. Zieke won't have to worry about the spells (unless he's affected by them), but he'll probably wind up choosing a lot of those CMB-related feats down the road...and he already has a few of them anyway.
--Neil
Welcome to the party Neil!
(At Last! A fellow poster who can apparently keep up with ME post-length wise!)
:D
Nice background btw NSpicer. Very well-thought out and no holes as mine tend to have. (I always leave gaps in my background. I claim it's to give the DM room to play, but in reality I'm probably just a tad lazy!) ;P
Regarding the Combat maneuvers,...
Meh, I haven't read that section yet. Not likely to affect THIS character at any rate. Not unless he gets it into his head to do something bone-headed.
BUT, everything that you wrote seems logical. One of the things I'm not too keen on yet (maybe after actually seeing it in action) about 4E is that they have replaced saves with a static 'fort' and 'dex' AC. So something either hits you or it doesn't. That just doesn't sit with me, I also prefer the straight up rolls. Even in real-life. athletes with the same size, weight, and training (IE=identical stats) will not end in a draw every time. On one day one will win, the next day the other will. Whether one was better rested, or ate his wheaties,... whatever.
On with the show!
Welcome to the party Neil! (At Last! A fellow poster who can apparently keep up with ME post-length wise!)
:D
Yes. I'm cursed with no sense of brevity whatsoever. ;-)
Nice background btw NSpicer. Very well-thought out and no holes as mine tend to have. (I always leave gaps in my background. I claim it's to give the DM room to play, but in reality I'm probably just a tad lazy!) ;P
Thanks. I wanted to portray Zieke as a bit more weathered, well-traveled, and world-weary...but not in a depressed, brooding way all the time. So I tried to put in enough background to explain his experiences up till now, but leave JSL enough room to play on it if he wants.
Currently, I'm also trying to set Zieke up as a "foil" to many of your characters in terms of personality. Slidell strikes me as somewhat "scattered" and "flighty"...whereas Zieke will be absolutely "practical" and "stalwart"...but hopefully not in an overbearing way. I don't want him to come off as condescending as much as "determined and focused."
Once we get past him trusting all of you...and earning your trust...I can show some different sides to his character. He's not a hard-ass all the time. But we've got the rest of the game to show that... ;-)
--Neil
Just an early bow and apology to the player of Vesh (santinj?)...looks like we got our posts and re-edits crossed up. But I really love the interaction so far...with everyone. I feel fully invested in the role already.
Game on!
--Neil
On a practical side, it means attacker is always rolling the dice. It would speed up a game like ours because you would never have to say "I cast fireball" and wait for me to roll saves. Instead, you would just roll the attacks.
Also, it allows a different set of bonuses and enhancements to come into play. For example, an item like Vesh's amulet (provides +5 bonus to one d20 roll) could be used with a fireball type spell; but, interestingly, it could not be used to defend you from such a spell.
So it is a little different, but I appreciate the simplicity of "attacker always rolls".
yep. I can see how that would speed things up. (Especially in a PbP setting!) So I DO like that,
I just also like having the POSSIBILITY of a low-lvl character with a good Dex and a bit of good luck being able to survive (if only because he ran) from an evil overlord fireball thrower. :)Just my 2cp,...
Well, 4E characters have access to abilities we probably don't know about yet so we can't extrapolate too far...
Thanks mr. DM. I will review my spells in the morning. Just too tired to think tonite!
Will post tomarrow, I've been busy. Sorry for my absence.
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I have questions about the severity of the tilt of the large chamber.
First, it is tilted toward the entrance (magic portal), correct? That means that as we enter, the floor slopes upward, right?
Second, how severe is the slope? Is it really 35-40 degrees as Slidell suggested? I can't find JSL's original description of the room. I'm just trying to get a sense of the room in light of Zieke's comments on having the high-ground.
If the slope is really that severe, than the first part of the staircase to the left would hardly be passable; it'd be easier to slide down the near wall. The lower part of that staircase would nearly be flat. The iron doors on the far side would be be roughly 30-to-40 feet above the edge of the platorm and even higher from the "bottom" of the staircase.
If this is the case, we'd be better off trying to shove the giant gobbo off the platform (if he's there), scramble "down" the stairs, up the slope of the room to the rubble and iron doors, and hurl missile weapons back down as he tries to chase us. Hell, we might even be able to dislodge some rubble and send it sliding down on the thing.
I have questions about the severity of the tilt of the large chamber.
If I misinterpreted something, please set me straight. I was just hoping for Zieke to have a chance to play some kind of tactical role. He's been a little abrasive so far, so I'm trying to find an angle where he might prove his value to the others. Maybe the best opportunity for that will come in battle, though. :-)
--Neil
Yah, some of that we can chalkup to Slidell just being,... slidell. :P
Mr. DM never actually gave an ACTUAL name to the severity to the tilt, or the direction of the tilt. But from his descriptions I imagined it being very severe, (30-40 IS probably a bit much!) and being tilted right to left as we entered the room. (Or left to right)
Though after re-reading that part, he did say "Like they are walking uphill", which would lead to the impression that the slope is higher at the portal and lowers as you enter the place.
Which technically WOULD give us the 'high ground' (and possibly the high ground +2 to hit?!?)
Sorry to cause confusion, just chalk it up to my character (and me, in RL) having the magical ability to open the mouth and run before the brain has even been started, much less engaged!
:D
I found JSL's initial description of the room about 1/4 of the way down Page 26. At the time, I drew a diagram of what I thought it looked like, but apparently I got it wrong. Also, JSL didn't answer direct questions about slope, as far as I recall, just that it is quite severe. So you don't have to scroll back, here's what JSL originally wrote:
First description:
You leap through the doorway arrayed for battle. However, as you set foot across the threshold, your body's immediately register that something is wrong with this room. The floor is sloped upwards to the left.
The room itself is like a huge vault with a towering ceiling - but turned halfway on its side. You are on a wide ledge some 20 feet above the floor. A stone stair leads up to your level on the left. A massive pile of crushed stone is all that remains of a similar stair that used to continue up from your level.
Across from you on the lower level, you see the remains of an iron door which has been crushed and folded in on itself, leaving only a narrow gap.
Your attention is quickly drawn to gutteral shrieking and chattering. Three of the split-jawed wrathspawn charge towards you, two by vaulting over the lip of the ledge and one running up the stairs.
Second description:
Two wrathspawn slink towards you from the edge of the platform about 20 feet dead ahead. A third is coming up/down (due to the slope of the room, it's hard to tell) the stairs to your left. Slidell and Salome have both stumbled and fallen just inside the room. The others have advanced beyond them and are forming a defensive circle with Ehlissa in front (nearest the two wrathspawn). Vesh and Malcolm are arrayed to the sides (can we assume Malcolm has the left flank and is nearest the wrathspawn on the stairs?).
Also, while we're figuring out tactics, I had the sense that the platform/landing we intially stepped out on was not all that stable, and was quite relieved when we were finally off of it. If the upper stairs were in crumbled heaps, what's to keep the stairs we used from collapsing?
Ah hah! So that's why I thought it was slanted side to side! It was!
Just FYI, I'm glad that someone actually thought to bring it up, ( I liked the idea of sliding down the wall,) but one man's slope is another man's level surface. ;P
Just my smart aleck way of saying that I'm ok with just knowing that the room is crooked if we can't figure out an actual way to visualize the slope. (But now that I think about it, it WOULD be nice if we could keep 'above' the beasties, That way if they fall or we trip them, they would roll away from us down the slope,...)
:)
I like Zieke's plans. It sounds like Plan A = shoot from high ground and defend the stairs; Plan B = V-formation with backs against the wall and pick off the bad guys that way.
Yes, yes, the dialogue and character development are, of course, very good. Are we ready to pass through the portal now?
Are we ready to pass through the portal now?
I guess I am. There's not a whole lot of preparation for Zieke, really. His first round through, I'll have him raise his AC (to 19) via his Combat Expertise feat, just in case any creatures have prepared an ambush. But aside from that, most of his decision-making will come once he sees what they're dealing with...
So, I'm ready to proceed when everyone else is...
--Neil
I'm ready to proceed.
Tally ho!