RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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How exactly do I have a rogue sneak up on a PC?
I let him make a Hide check, and a move silently, and let the PC try to beat them with spot or listen...that much is simple.
The question is - is one check enough for the whole distance between where they begin with hiding right up to 5' from the PC? how often do I let the PC check to notice the sneaky rogue? With no facing you can't really say "He's behind you!" except as pure flavour.
Lets say the PC and the Rogue are 60' apart in a dark tunnel, the PC has a torch burning, and the rogue is at the dark end of the tunnel. Would someone mind talking me through it?
Ordinarily, a character can only Hide when they have concealment (exceptions occur). Concealment can come from hiding behind a corner, a dark room, a darkness spell, etc. In this case, any PCs have to be able to Spot the NPC using Hide. Prior to combat, this is usually done as a free action, so that the PC can act in the surprise round. Beyond that, a standard action on the PCs part is usually required to Spot an NPC using Hide successfully. Usually, torchlight prevents hiding in a close proximity to the torch bearer. Then, Move Silently becomes more important.
In this case, if an NPC were to sneak up on one of the PCs, and that PC has a torch, a Move Silently check, opposed by the PC's Listen check should occur. If the NPC wins, he/she sneaks up on the PC; if the PC wins, the PC should be able to act in any potential surprise round to come. I would allow for any other characters to be able to make checks when applicable as well, such as the barbarian with Listen trained standing right next to his (potentially) unlucky cleric friend about to get jacked by a drow assassin.
How exactly do I have a rogue sneak up on a PC?
I let him make a Hide check, and a move silently, and let the PC try to beat them with spot or listen...that much is simple.The question is - is one check enough for the whole distance between where they begin with hiding right up to 5' from the PC? how often do I let the PC check to notice the sneaky rogue? With no facing you can't really say "He's behind you!" except as pure flavour.
Lets say the PC and the Rogue are 60' apart in a dark tunnel, the PC has a torch burning, and the rogue is at the dark end of the tunnel. Would someone mind talking me through it?
I do it as follows:
1. The rogue need only make Move Silently checks until the point at which he enters the torch's shadowy illumination (40' from the PC). A person is automatically hidden while in total blackness. The rogue can only sneak up until the point at which he enters the torch's clear illumination (20' from the PC). Without a facing mechanic, the PC is assumed to automatically see the rogue as soon as he is clearly illuminated.
2. The rogue makes Hide and/or Move Silently checks once per round. Assuming he moves at the standard 'half speed sneak rate' and is an unencumbered human, that means 1-2 rolls every 30'. As a side note, I roll all Hide/MS checks against Listen/Spot DCs rather than Listen/Spot checks to reduce unecessary dice and confusion.
3. So, in the first round the rogue would make one Hide roll and one MS roll while moving from 60' to 30' away. In the second round, the rogue could repeat the process to move another 10' up until the edge of the clear illumination, but since he's already within sneak attack range it would be kinda pointless. At this point, I tend to bend the surprise rules: I would probably give the rogue a full round of action so that he could move up and stab the PC instead of needing to rely on a ranged attack.
Hope that helps,
TS
At this point, I tend to bend the surprise rules: I would probably give the rogue a full round of action so that he could move up and stab the PC instead of needing to rely on a ranged attack.
No need, you can charge up to your speed as a standard action. Stab away.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Ah, so assuming a succesful Move Silently and Hide, put him on the table 20' from the character, say "Surprise!" then march him up and let him do his dirty work.
Excellent. The Lotus Dragons have regrouped after being surprised themselves and are now out for vengeance. I don't want to mess it up!
Beyond that, a standard action on the PCs part is usually required to Spot an NPC using Hide successfully.
It's actually a move action.
The more rolls the sneaking rogue makes, the more (1) time it takes and (2) chances the party has to Spot the rogue. The first one is bad; depending on the circumstances, the second is typically good, but it might get annoying if every rogue (PC and NPC alike) has a high chance of getting spotted anytime they have to sneak up on someone, simply due to the odds of one character rolling high and the other rolling low. I mean, the PCs should get preferential treatment, yes, but what are the odds of a rogue of appropriate CR actually successfully Hiding and Moving Silently against approximately 4 sets of opposed checks for every 15 feet they have to cover? Not good at all. Sheer numbers slant things enormously in favor of the party, to the point where the NPC rogue is almost impotent. That practically eliminates a very good tool from the DM's hand.
Unless, of course, send a rogue at the party who is many levels higher than they are, which is not a good idea (unbalanced encounters are typically good to stay away from); or, you play the rogue somewhat intelligently (most rogues are) and go after the party while they are asleep. This is a good recipe for a TPK, however. In the end, sneaking up and stabbing someone is something that works better for PCs against NPCs than vice versa. It's usually really hard to get the party to separate for convenient sneak attack on a loner. :)
That's all if it's just one or two rogues vs. the PCs, of course. Throwing in allies for the sneaks changes things dramatically (as does the use of any type of diversion).
In the case of an ambush where the rogue is just supposed to pop out and attack the party, and then normal combat commences, I'd typically just roll one set of checks to save time and give the NPC a more likely chance of success. Alternately, have the rogues already in position, so they don't have to make Move Silently checks, and set a static Hide DC (10 + NPC's Hide modifier is what I use). On a related note, I would recommend for the OP that the NPCs' roles be made the static DC (whether sneaking or detecting) and the PCs have to roll against it. It's more fun for them, and seems slightly more in keeping with the basic precidents of the game. IMHO.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Which also brings up the "who rolls the spot for the PCs" question, though that sounds like another thread title. Nah, what the heck - 'Sneaking Up On PCs' is fairly broad and it falls under that heading nicely.
So - who rolls the spots in your game?
If I knew in advance it was sneak up on PCs time, I'd be inclined to do the rolls at the table myself, and try to have handouts ready for everyone, with red herrings for terrible failures thrown in.
Is it taking too much out of the players hands, or impartial and fair? Assume no railroading but straight rolls where they have every possible chance of spotting the lovingly prepared ambush.
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I seem to recall a rule somewhere, though I don't remember just whether it was official and hidden away in one of the splat books or if it was just a suggestion I saw on one of the boards here, that let someone hiding move away from concealment a number of feet equal to their ranks in hide.
Naturally, if at the start of his next round he didn't have any concealment to hide in then he was out of luck, but it allowed for things like having a character sitting about 10ft out from the edge of the light and letting a rogue with at least 10 ranks in hide creep in quietly behind him for a good attack rather then just charging in wildly.
Obviously thats more of a flavor thing since either way has the same result(rogue moves, makes a single attack and catches the opponent flat footed for a sneak attack), but I enjoy the flavor of this mechanic simply because it gives the cinematic feel of having a rogue slipping from shadow to shadow when others aren't looking. Or ducking from pillar to pillar as he moves from doorway to doorway across a room thats being patrolled.
Just something I thought might give you some ideas, and the only potential abuse I could see coming from it would be someone thinking to get wily with spring attack- Move out of the shadows, strike and duck back into the shadows. But I think I'd arbitrate that using the sniping rules(-20 on the hide check after an attack. If they are -really- good they might be able to slip behind the pillar before everyone figures out what is going on, but I wouldn't count on it).
Which also brings up the "who rolls the spot for the PCs" question, though that sounds like another thread title. Nah, what the heck - 'Sneaking Up On PCs' is fairly broad and it falls under that heading nicely.
So - who rolls the spots in your game?
If I knew in advance it was sneak up on PCs time, I'd be inclined to do the rolls at the table myself, and try to have handouts ready for everyone, with red herrings for terrible failures thrown in.
Is it taking too much out of the players hands, or impartial and fair? Assume no railroading but straight rolls where they have every possible chance of spotting the lovingly prepared ambush.
That depends on your players. If they rolled a 1 on a Spot check, would they acknowledge that their character doesn't know he just failed a Spot check and act accordingly, or would they immediately pull the whole party into a defensive circle with no in-game explanation? If the former, letting them roll should be just fine, and they'll probably appreciate the trust you display. It's also one less thing for you, the DM, to keep track of. If the later, it's probably better if you roll for them (assuming you want to avoid the kind of behavior so described).
That depends on your players. If they rolled a 1 on a Spot check, would they acknowledge that their character doesn't know he just failed a Spot check and act accordingly, or would they immediately pull the whole party into a defensive circle with no in-game explanation? If the former, letting them roll should be just fine, and they'll probably appreciate the trust you display. It's also one less thing for you, the DM, to keep track of. If the later, it's probably better if you roll for them (assuming you want to avoid the kind of behavior so described).So - who rolls the spots in your game?
If I knew in advance it was sneak up on PCs time, I'd be inclined to do the rolls at the table myself, and try to have handouts ready for everyone, with red herrings for terrible failures thrown in.
Is it taking too much out of the players hands, or impartial and fair? Assume no railroading but straight rolls where they have every possible chance of spotting the lovingly prepared ambush.
I have cheat sheets with each character's skills and saves on them, so in situations like this, I just pass a note saying "roll a d20 and write down the results". If it's something immediate (hidden spellcaster dropping a Hold Person, or the aforementioned rogue stepping from shadows), I'll just ask for the roll out loud since the consequences are obvious and unavoidable. I also make all my rolls out in the open (though I don't always say what I'm rolling for) to keep the players from thinking I'm screwing them over.
Which also brings up the "who rolls the spot for the PCs" question, though that sounds like another thread title. Nah, what the heck - 'Sneaking Up On PCs' is fairly broad and it falls under that heading nicely.
So - who rolls the spots in your game?
If I knew in advance it was sneak up on PCs time, I'd be inclined to do the rolls at the table myself, and try to have handouts ready for everyone, with red herrings for terrible failures thrown in.
Is it taking too much out of the players hands, or impartial and fair? Assume no railroading but straight rolls where they have every possible chance of spotting the lovingly prepared ambush.
Like I said I don't do opposed rolls. Too many dice and too much math involved. Whenever Hide/MS v. Listen/Spot is involved, I consider Hide/MS to be the 'active' skills.
This works well in the game; in a situation like your rogue NPC, you don't risk tipping off your players that they're about to be ambushed, you have a lot less math to do and best of all the static Listen/Spot DCs mean that the rogue actually has a decent chance of successfully pulling off his ambush.
In the rogue PC v. unsuspecting NPC scenario, the sneaking PCs get to roll Hide/MS. Again, there's less math involved, it puts the action in the PCs' hands and the PCs have a decent chance of success even when sneaking around an army of NPCs.
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Like I said I don't do opposed rolls. Too many dice and too much math involved. Whenever Hide/MS v. Listen/Spot is involved, I consider Hide/MS to be the 'active' skills.
This works well in the game; in a situation like your rogue NPC, you don't risk tipping off your players that they're about to be ambushed, you have a lot less math to do and best of all the static Listen/Spot DCs mean that the rogue actually has a decent chance of successfully pulling off his ambush.
Sounds like a great idea. How exactly would this work?
PC skill + 10 = DC the NPC has to beat?
Alternatively, I've had players for a d20 10 times before we play and write the results on a card with their name. When I need a d20 but don't want to let the player know, I use the next number down their list and then cross it off. But I like the NPC rolling against the PC's skill as DC better.